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On July 14 2012 07:05 emaster wrote:
Spores, cannons, and turrets all are at least double cost efficient vs interceptors. Marines and hydra are better vs carriers because they are cost effective vs interceptors, and they dont have any stacking issues.... the interceptors come to them. Vs voids, they have to do more micro to get underneat them, so it takes longer for them to start hitting voids efficiently.
Carriers were effective in broodwar, because everything had less range, and corrupts, vikings, and voidrays didn't exist.
Next time, you want to say i am just butting in with my opinion, please dont use a straw man and please offer some real evidence to counter mine.
My evidence is that I use them regularly, with good success, similar to many other people that support this build/style. Your evidence consists of baseless theory and unit testers where Carriers are designed to lose. I know for a fact you haven't seriously used them more than perhaps while smurfing, otherwise you'd know how absolutely terrible Hydras are against Carriers or Interceptors.
Here is the part where I'd normally educate you on how to use them, but I'm sure you're not interested in that.. you seem much more interested in being an ignorant crusader, attempting to battle high-level players that base their entire PvZ around using them correctly.
Long story short, learn how to use them and actually use them in your games, then maybe you can join this discussion without looking like a fool. Unit testing and making stuff up (like Hydras are good against Carriers) isn't sufficient evidence whatsoever.
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On July 14 2012 07:59 Daimai wrote:Hey guys, I followed some of the advice earlier in the thread (I think) and now im left wondering what to do in these lategame situations: http://drop.sc/221551http://drop.sc/221552
Can you please explain what the situation is? I'm not at a computer where I can watch replays, but I can answer questions regarding this style (or Stargate armies in general).
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Perhaps you misunderstand me... I never go a game without using them.
But someone else was saying pure corruptor wins vs voids, and taht you need carriers to combat corruptors. Having 3 or 4 won't hurt, but having more than that vs pure corruptor is bad. They were spouting out theory, dps, and numbers. While my experience is that I only go against pure corruptor in the mid game, and when I do I go pure void. Eventually they add in other stuff that carriers are good to have with the voids, but carriers can't be the core of your army.
Carriers do suck. Its very unfortunate. From brood war to sc2, range on everything else increased except for them, basically. Plus each race got a much better counter vs them. Doesn't mean they are unusable, but you have to realize you can't mass them up, in the same way. If you add in HT, you can possibly make them a core, but interceptors are still cost inefficient. You have to use HT to feed back infestors and storm stuff that counter them. Carriers can be effective when you have HT, very very effective when used defensively with mothership and cannons over them, but to go offensive, you need a bank of minerals because they cost too much money to fight offensively otherwise.
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On July 14 2012 07:59 Daimai wrote:Hey guys, I followed some of the advice earlier in the thread (I think) and now im left wondering what to do in these lategame situations: http://drop.sc/221551http://drop.sc/221552
Okay So I watched both replays. I play at a lower level, but just breezing through the game I noticed some things.
Game 1: Your opponent played beautifully to deal with your lategame army, just gonna say, he played it great. But I couldn't help but feel like you never, really tried to attack him. I know you might be afraid of your army getting caught out of position, so maybe place some observers around. When you have a mothership with 100+ energy, there is no such thing as being caught out of position mid-late game. Maybe ultra late game you need to have vortex on hand, but not there. At the end of the game, you lost to chain fungal because you never re created your mothership. The mothership is very important the whole game!
Get a scouting phoenix, and determine if you can be aggressive. I like to be aggressive with first few voids, but then again I'm not so ballsy about grabbing my third so early. Since you're greedy, you can keep first few voids around. But as soon as you have mothership and it has ~85 energy or so, I move striaght out to attack. Sometimes I will move my void to edge of map, and see if I can sneak into the main. Remember You cant be caught out of position if you have recall. I don't care what your composition is, you cant just sit back on 4 bases, never attack, just leave your army at home, and expect to win the game without attacking ever.
Game 2: That early game made me cringe, those ling runbys were painful  . You were a bit better about poking, but it seemed like you were still scared of getting caught out of position. He had a huge setup in the center of infestors, spore crawlers, and corruptors. What should you do? Fly around the edge of the map, go into his main base, snipe all his shit, snipe everything you can, and recall out when he tries to attack your army. Don't be afraid of attacking, with recall on your side You literally have nothing to lose. IF you are able to keep up the recall attacking, and limit his base count to yours, you will be able to do well against his army. You lost the game when he attacked your 4th, and you attacked without your cannon support, and without recall. If you are defending a base, your fleet should be above your cannons. That was bad positioning on your part. Put cannons basically on top of your nexus, that way a mothership can be over nexus, cloaking all probes and cannons and recall the fleet right on top of base to defend. I cant say that if you properly placed your cannons that you wouldn't have lost the game, but it certainly wouldn't have been so easy for your opponent. They would have had to bring spores and spines and brood lords to siege.
One more thing about the brood lord shit goin on, you need to morph a few of your HT into archon to absorb the brood lord shots. When you have only HT and air broodlords can only target your HT so they die kinda quick.
TLDR:
Don't be afraid to attack! midgame, you have a great army, where you can poke and prod without any risk at all. Recall makes it so you can attack with, potentially, absolutely zero risk. I've played games where I went in, sniped hydra den infest pit and main lair/hive and recalled before losing a single unit. You can't expect that to fall in your lap, but you have to try. You can easily keep their base count as low as yours by doing that. If you let the zerg get to an endgame where they have 6k/6k in the bank, and 7+ hatcheries while you are only at 1-2k/1-2k you are dead lost. Be aggressive!
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On July 14 2012 09:25 SidewinderSC2 wrote:Can you please explain what the situation is? I'm not at a computer where I can watch replays, but I can answer questions regarding this style (or Stargate armies in general).
I have no idea how to deal with lategame infestor/corruptor/broodlord armies from zerg. Feel like they are too effective vs this mix.
http://drop.sc/221908 Another example.
Well, I am giving up on this style.
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So I guess I shouldn't watch the last replay since you've already given up on it and don't want analysis?
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On July 14 2012 21:02 Daimai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 09:25 SidewinderSC2 wrote:On July 14 2012 07:59 Daimai wrote:Hey guys, I followed some of the advice earlier in the thread (I think) and now im left wondering what to do in these lategame situations: http://drop.sc/221551http://drop.sc/221552 Can you please explain what the situation is? I'm not at a computer where I can watch replays, but I can answer questions regarding this style (or Stargate armies in general). I have no idea how to deal with lategame infestor/corruptor/broodlord armies from zerg. Feel like they are too effective vs this mix. http://drop.sc/221908 Another example. Well, I am giving up on this style.
Just for the record, with some tweaks you had that game in your pocket.
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On July 14 2012 10:12 emaster wrote:
Perhaps you misunderstand me... I never go a game without using them.
But someone else was saying pure corruptor wins vs voids, and taht you need carriers to combat corruptors. Having 3 or 4 won't hurt, but having more than that vs pure corruptor is bad. They were spouting out theory, dps, and numbers. While my experience is that I only go against pure corruptor in the mid game, and when I do I go pure void. Eventually they add in other stuff that carriers are good to have with the voids, but carriers can't be the core of your army.
Carriers do suck. Its very unfortunate. From brood war to sc2, range on everything else increased except for them, basically. Plus each race got a much better counter vs them. Doesn't mean they are unusable, but you have to realize you can't mass them up, in the same way. If you add in HT, you can possibly make them a core, but interceptors are still cost inefficient. You have to use HT to feed back infestors and storm stuff that counter them. Carriers can be effective when you have HT, very very effective when used defensively with mothership and cannons over them, but to go offensive, you need a bank of minerals because they cost too much money to fight offensively otherwise.
I just find it strange that you say "Carriers suck" as your first sentence in one post, then a couple posts later you say "I never go a game without using them". If they suck, why do you use them?
I agree with you that Carrier vs Corrupter is a terrible fight, and I don't understand how that would ever be debatable. But you basically said "look guys, Carriers suck and I went into a unit tester to prove that they suck". I think I just missed the person you were responding to since your first post had no quote.
But, Carriers actually don't suck. Their strength is in how difficult they are to kill, adding severe longevity to your army. They are not a DPS unit because they attack one target at a time. Any AoE unit is going to be better for DPS, but AoE units can be negated relatively easily by dodging storms, EMP'ing, using a ton of Vikings, etc. But the fact that Carriers are so difficult to kill along with proper support makes them good, along with decent, burst-fire DPS.
The downside is that most people don't understand how to properly support Carriers, and it's always Mothership + Templar tech. Stalkers can be okay because of their bonus damage to armored, but the fact that it forces such a big commitment to kill, wild switches into Zealot/Archon or other gateway-based stuff makes Protoss really hard to deal with.
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On July 15 2012 07:07 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 21:02 Daimai wrote:On July 14 2012 09:25 SidewinderSC2 wrote:On July 14 2012 07:59 Daimai wrote:Hey guys, I followed some of the advice earlier in the thread (I think) and now im left wondering what to do in these lategame situations: http://drop.sc/221551http://drop.sc/221552 Can you please explain what the situation is? I'm not at a computer where I can watch replays, but I can answer questions regarding this style (or Stargate armies in general). I have no idea how to deal with lategame infestor/corruptor/broodlord armies from zerg. Feel like they are too effective vs this mix. http://drop.sc/221908 Another example. Well, I am giving up on this style. Just for the record, with some tweaks you had that game in your pocket.
Oh really? What tweaks? Do tell. I love this style much more than roll over and die to broodlord infestor but I struggle vs lategame corruptor infestor spore broodlord pushes.
On July 15 2012 05:12 emaster wrote:
So I guess I shouldn't watch the last replay since you've already given up on it and don't want analysis?
I always love me some criticism, please do watch all three I posted and do tell <3.
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I have no idea how to deal with lategame infestor/corruptor/broodlord armies from zerg. Feel like they are too effective vs this mix. http://drop.sc/221908 Another example. Well, I am giving up on this style.
I think the biggest weakness specifically in this build is following it up with Carriers right after the expansion. The Mothership expansion is really solid, but the immediate Carrier follow-up is really weak and slow. Taking a 4th base with Carrier, MS, Void Ray is also really difficult unless you pull off some recall shenanigans to buy time.
I run the Mothership expansion part, but then transition into Archons with my excess gas during cannon production. After that, I add Zealots and Immortals to power through spines and deal with high Roach counts, and then wait for him to engage poorly.
Dealing with the late-game composition of Brood/Corruptor/Infestor is now a lot more about warp prism harassment to keep their army at bay and make any attack they commit to an all-in, and landing one or two good vortexes with a full energy Mothership. The 10 or so Void Rays as part of the composition helps.
But the entire thing revolves around the Archons, and later Storm. If you run Stargate in PvZ without Archons or Storm, I feel it's a very fragile army. Once you are maxed out, if you don't feel comfortable attacking, add on like 4 extra Stargates as you take a 4th base, and start dumping Zealots as harassment and to refine what's taking up your supply. Keep up the harassment until he attacks, and you can either re-fill the supply with more Templar and Archons, or start adding more Void Rays to help battle the high Corrupter amount. Once you get to a 200/200 army that is purely Templar, Void Ray, Mothership, Archon, it's simply about landing Storms and vortexes. He'll have to attack you eventually, making Vortex pretty easy to land.
Of course, if you still want Carriers as a part of the mix, the alternative to the style I'm talking about while still covering weaknesses is simply getting the Zealot Archon army filled up, then adding Stargates instead of Robos when you are ready to complete your composition. 4-Stargate Carrier on 3 bases is perfectly fine, because the Carriers are arriving (unintentional, I swear) with proper Archon or Templar support, rather than with weak support of only Void Rays and Cannons.
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@ Damai Look at all the posts on page 42, 4th one down is my analysis of your first 2 replays. I didn't do a detailed analysis, just a breeze through. But the TLDR is that you need to go wild and attack while you have mothership. Mothership is good to help defend a 3rd base, but thats not its only purpose! Go ape shit crazy attacking with it, like fly on the edge of map straight into the main and snipe tech, then recall out. Midgame rule I propose to you, if you have 100 energy on your mothership in the midgame, it needs to be attacking a base.
EDIT: by it I mean your army, with your mothership placed defensively over cannons to recall back in case of a counter attack or if your army is in danger. I have played games where in the midgame the resource lost tab is 10k to less than 1k, and that less than 1k happened early game. Sniped a few bases, sniped some tech, recall out without losing a single unit. You can't expect you're opponent to hand you that much on a platter of course! But you gotta be aggressive. You have a HUGE mobility advantage in the midgame that you gotta abuse.
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I am terrible (platinum) but could anyone give me tips as to how I could have beat mutas this game? Mechanics aside, what should I have done differently?
http://drop.sc/223610
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I am platinum too, so I know you don't want to hear this... but your macro sucked.
I'm paused at 13 minutes, you have two stargates a mothership about to pop, and 2150/750 in the bank. If you listen to the master's in this forum, they will tell you its impossible to afford a mothership and 2 stargates, yet you can easily afford a 3rd. If you were spending your money, off even 1 stargate chrono boosted, you would have had 5-6 more phoenix at this point. So instead of 5 phoenix vs 17 muta, it could/should have been 10-12 vs 17. If you did double stargate then added mothership later, you would have had = number of phoenix.
14 minutes, you have a zealot with wall and a full energy sentry behind it, yet somehow lings come in and destroy your cannons. Your mothership is above it, but without cannons. You need to have cannons below your mothership.
You never attempt to build a 3rd, which is the whole point of this build.
Easiest correction to make, hotkey the F*ing motherhsip. Its a 400/400 unit, give it its own hotkey. It got sniped, yet if you had it hotkeyed you could recall your phoenix army on top of it and do well.
So lets assume you macro better, and you have a lot of pheonix. One the game should solve itself, but after that, when you got phoenix, you follow them anywhere they go and kill every single one. You follow them until they get to queens and spore crawlers, and just kill every single one of those units.
So yeah, stop getting supply blocked so much. Build units. Attempt to make a 3rd, and make sure you replace cannons at your front. Hotkey your mothership, and dont let zerglings get in when you have a zealot on hold position and a full energy sentry behind it. there is no reason to not get that FF down. You were staring at the zerglings, and you moved your phoenix around with doing anything with them. Your sentry was right there!!!!! You were staring at this happen for 10 ingame seconds, and just didn't do it.
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On July 12 2012 16:03 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 15:04 emaster wrote:
Nexus won't finish in time for a 6 pool, obv, but thats what scouting is for.
I don't see how nexus improves wall at all... the reason forge and gates are good is because they provide beef in front, and cannons in back can attack anything that tries to attack the wall. If you put nexus in front, suddenly, cannons have lost all their effectiveness. You might as well only have 1 cannon. Zerg, of course, can and usually will just play greedy in response. But a nexus doesn't improve the wall, it makes it a million times worse. Maybe in HOTS when it can be a cannon itself its great, but until then, its just a free kill for any ranged unit who wants to attack it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, if a cannon can indeed attack roaches from behind a wall, I'll rescind my statement. And to your credit, I will say that wall should be GREAT vs baneling busts. You natural expansion won't finish before a 6 pool, let alone a wall-off. I fail to see how that's relevant. And you shouldn't have a Zerg play greedy in response to this, as I stated above, a macro nexus should be in response to your opponent playing greedy, not the other way around. Anywho, here's the setup I use on Entombed (it's pretty similar on most maps): ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RotVg.jpg) As the zealot shows, there is a 1 hex space at the corner of the nexus, allowing traffic in and out despite the fact that it looks like a complete wall off (see Liquidpedia's entry on walling off for further information regarding the "tightness" of walls and 5x5 buildings). As the ghost pylon also shows, you can still wall-off normally after the forge and gateways are down, in the event that you scout something that makes you not want to put down the macro nexus. Both cannons cover the entire ramp, so it's about as roach-proof as walls get. The only weakness to baneling busts is the usual weakness, the zealot. Don't know what to tell you on that front except have a sentry ready. The only immediate disadvantage to this wall-off type that comes to mind is that you can't use either cannon to assist in taking down the destructible rocks when it comes time to do that, but you might as well set up a cannon on the other side to defend the other ramp anyway. Plus I suppose you could always flip the wall around (nexus at the bottom, forge off to the right), as I don't think that would interfere with your natural expansion.
Can't tell if troll with that wall off.... I reallllly hope you're trolling
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On July 18 2012 11:57 emaster wrote:
I am platinum too, so I know you don't want to hear this... but your macro sucked.
I'm paused at 13 minutes, you have two stargates a mothership about to pop, and 2150/750 in the bank. If you listen to the master's in this forum, they will tell you its impossible to afford a mothership and 2 stargates, yet you can easily afford a 3rd. If you were spending your money, off even 1 stargate chrono boosted, you would have had 5-6 more phoenix at this point. So instead of 5 phoenix vs 17 muta, it could/should have been 10-12 vs 17. If you did double stargate then added mothership later, you would have had = number of phoenix.
14 minutes, you have a zealot with wall and a full energy sentry behind it, yet somehow lings come in and destroy your cannons. Your mothership is above it, but without cannons. You need to have cannons below your mothership.
You never attempt to build a 3rd, which is the whole point of this build.
Easiest correction to make, hotkey the F*ing motherhsip. Its a 400/400 unit, give it its own hotkey. It got sniped, yet if you had it hotkeyed you could recall your phoenix army on top of it and do well.
So lets assume you macro better, and you have a lot of pheonix. One the game should solve itself, but after that, when you got phoenix, you follow them anywhere they go and kill every single one. You follow them until they get to queens and spore crawlers, and just kill every single one of those units.
So yeah, stop getting supply blocked so much. Build units. Attempt to make a 3rd, and make sure you replace cannons at your front. Hotkey your mothership, and dont let zerglings get in when you have a zealot on hold position and a full energy sentry behind it. there is no reason to not get that FF down. You were staring at the zerglings, and you moved your phoenix around with doing anything with them. Your sentry was right there!!!!! You were staring at this happen for 10 ingame seconds, and just didn't do it.
Thanks a lot. I actually forgot I had the sentry. So is it better to go 2 SG before MS vs mass muta? And how many cannons do you think I need at my enterance and mineral lines to hold?
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You had enough cannons, the ones that you had at the front shouldn't have gone down. I usually have at least 3 at the entrance, and I put down extra zealots in the gap just to be sure.
If you are macroing very well, you can't go double stargate, fleet beacon and mothership. Phoenix build time is incredibly fast, and they are actually heavier on gas then void, so I'd say one stargate with constant chronoboost in addition to phoenix range and attack upgrade will easily hold off muta, especially since you are teching straight to it and aren't doing early pressure.
EDIT: Will easily hold off 3 base muta as you saw. 2 base muta hits very hard very fast so I'm not sure how easy the hold is, but if you're going for constant phoenix with +1 attack and the range upgrade, he will eventually be unable to kill a single phoenix.
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On July 18 2012 12:08 ZaloMonkada wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 16:03 HelioSeven wrote:On July 12 2012 15:04 emaster wrote:
Nexus won't finish in time for a 6 pool, obv, but thats what scouting is for.
I don't see how nexus improves wall at all... the reason forge and gates are good is because they provide beef in front, and cannons in back can attack anything that tries to attack the wall. If you put nexus in front, suddenly, cannons have lost all their effectiveness. You might as well only have 1 cannon. Zerg, of course, can and usually will just play greedy in response. But a nexus doesn't improve the wall, it makes it a million times worse. Maybe in HOTS when it can be a cannon itself its great, but until then, its just a free kill for any ranged unit who wants to attack it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, if a cannon can indeed attack roaches from behind a wall, I'll rescind my statement. And to your credit, I will say that wall should be GREAT vs baneling busts. You natural expansion won't finish before a 6 pool, let alone a wall-off. I fail to see how that's relevant. And you shouldn't have a Zerg play greedy in response to this, as I stated above, a macro nexus should be in response to your opponent playing greedy, not the other way around. Anywho, here's the setup I use on Entombed (it's pretty similar on most maps): As the zealot shows, there is a 1 hex space at the corner of the nexus, allowing traffic in and out despite the fact that it looks like a complete wall off (see Liquidpedia's entry on walling off for further information regarding the "tightness" of walls and 5x5 buildings). As the ghost pylon also shows, you can still wall-off normally after the forge and gateways are down, in the event that you scout something that makes you not want to put down the macro nexus. Both cannons cover the entire ramp, so it's about as roach-proof as walls get. The only weakness to baneling busts is the usual weakness, the zealot. Don't know what to tell you on that front except have a sentry ready. The only immediate disadvantage to this wall-off type that comes to mind is that you can't use either cannon to assist in taking down the destructible rocks when it comes time to do that, but you might as well set up a cannon on the other side to defend the other ramp anyway. Plus I suppose you could always flip the wall around (nexus at the bottom, forge off to the right), as I don't think that would interfere with your natural expansion. Can't tell if troll with that wall off.... I reallllly hope you're trolling
*shrug*
Sure, why not.
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Esaul, I can start a lot earlier than 13 mins. At 5 mins, your nexus at your main is at 100 energy. Use dem chronos! I make my stargate, and right after I start +1 air attack. I prefer to make phx first (you should know where standard spots for ovies are) to snipe ovies and see what z is doing...react to what you see by maing a second sg or a fb. Either way, chronos should be used most likely on units at this stage if you are unsure if your opponent is being aggressive or not...i usually prefer to chrono units no matter what unless i see inf pit and no other tech. Like emaster said, if you are chroning units, you really dont need a second sg, hopefully chronos are used for units and for MS to get fast third. However, if you read no early aggression, just chrono probes. If you see nothing early, your +1 should finish at about the time you have around 4 (if 1 sg) vrays and you should start poking around. I usually make my 2nd sg right after my fb, so if the z is weak/being greedy, continue to pressure with vrays (this will win you the game or you can pick off a base). Mutas are somewhat annoying in the early stages, but extremely weak later. If you are worried, make approx 4-5 canonns around your main and nat around 10-1030 min, which shoud buy time for units...if you are constantly making probes to prepare for 3rd, you should have plenty of mins as well for this, and dont forget phx range if you see muta! This is a very fun style! If you are worried about ling runbys just make a full wall early on. I have lost A LOT early aggression which is why i prefer phx first. Once you establish a 3rd is comes down to macro and being aggressive on the map trying to pick off bases! HF
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^^ And all of that *led to* Essaul to having 5-7 less phoenix at 13 minutes
Question, should you send your first phoenix straight to enemy base to scout, or should you kill ovies first?
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EPT
