EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 11 2012 14:42 Rimak wrote: You shouldnt fight corrupters with pure VR in direct fight. You MUST have archon if you want to fight face to face. And templars should storm the infestor. Wat. Gonna go ahead and completely disagree with you there. As long as you're not outnumbered 2 to 1, VRs should have no problem taking on corruptors mano a mano. See a couple posts up regarding the numbers. Also, storm should go on the corruptors and hydras... feedbacks are more efficient on infestors because even though you don't get the AoE damage, it depletes the infestors of energy, so that even if they survive with a few hitpoints they are still useless. Only when large groups of infestors clump up is storm more efficient than feedback. Stalkers are not that good. Aaand I think we're done here. | ||
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Xana
Denmark128 Posts
Your opponent scouts you going air, thats all cool and fine. Now your opponent makes a decent round of Zerglings, and plants them in a split out fashion on your third before the base goes up. Your Voidrays/Phoenix did no real damage worth mentioning. At this point Zerg is taking a fourth base aswell, in the middle at the gold, as a standard reaction to the heavy air play. - Behind this Zerg has made a spire and an infestation pit, planning to make 6-10 corrupters to scout your base to see if you really are going mass air, or making a Robo transition. Exactly what are you going to do? If you pull your units back to clean up the speedlings, my fourth base finish. If you just use the Mothership that pops out, it'll take a good while to clean up the lings. When burrow finishes, it becomes even more troublesome.Then again, this wasn't my main concern with the build. Even if you do some damage and your third is not delayed, later on I'm going to have a ring of vision around your base. I'll see the minute you move out and try to engage your army as close to your base as I can with my Infestor/Corrupter mix. I'll have gone double spire for upgrades, and keep on tossing stuff at you to keep you on three bases. I'll happily sacrifice some corrupters for a Mothership/Carriers, because Voidrays just melt to Infestor play. Assuming your opponent is on equal skill with you, and will do anything he can to force you to stay in your base in the security of cannons, how would you stop him from taking the map? | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On July 11 2012 15:18 HelioSeven wrote: Wat. Gonna go ahead and completely disagree with you there. As long as you're not outnumbered 2 to 1, VRs should have no problem taking on corruptors mano a mano. See a couple posts up regarding the numbers. Also, storm should go on the corruptors and hydras... feedbacks are more efficient on infestors because even though you don't get the AoE damage, it depletes the infestors of energy, so that even if they survive with a few hitpoints they are still useless. Only when large groups of infestors clump up is storm more efficient than feedback. Aaand I think we're done here. I agre with what you are saying. Sorry for misguiding you. Yes When I was saying about archons i mean when corruptors overwhelm you, in even numbers VR destroy them, no chance. And also i agree about feedback and infestor, should've add that storming infestor is better than feedback if there is 15+ infestor. I won't comment about hydra resistance to storm  Speaking about stalkers what i was trying to say, that i really think that there is just too much of EVERYTHING PvZ is going on around them, so though they are good as a unit a refreshing view of stalkerless PvZ is also possible, that's why I like skytoss so much. I'll try to be more specific on my thought from now on. ty. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: I met this just one game ago on Antiga shipyard. It might have a lot of potential, but I have a few questions for the OP of this build, as the player I met just crumbled hardcore in the midgame, and never ever managed to secure his fourth base. Your opponent scouts you going air, thats all cool and fine. Now your opponent makes a decent round of Zerglings, and plants them in a split out fashion on your third before the base goes up. Your Voidrays/Phoenix did no real damage worth mentioning. At this point Zerg is taking a fourth base aswell, in the middle at the gold, as a standard reaction to the heavy air play. There are two defining ways for the Protoss to take a third with Skytoss. One is behind pressure, which means 2 stargate worth of attacking units. If you send those out on the map, the 4th isn't going up. Even 1 Void Ray and 5 Phoenixes will deter that for a while until queens start walking off creep in large groups. The whole point of sending out pressure is to stop the zerg from taking a 4th and to pick off Queens to deny the production, since you're essentially conceding drone harassment when you do this. If you send out pressure, you get a later third but you're getting upgrades and a fleet going, and you can use your fleet to clear the lings away for your third. The other way to take a third is to get a very fast mothership, which is essentially where the Toss starts a third nexus either as a macro nexus or a (calculated) risky third base, boosts the Mothership out 5 times, and uses the cloaking field to protect his third while cannons and production get powered up for further defense. If this happens, the zerg can take a 4th, but again the protoss can still go send out a Void and some Phoenixes to temporarily deny it until a big group of queens comes over to protect it. You don't need more than one stargate to produce that army quickly if you're sitting on triple nexus for chronoboost. In fact, it's pretty standard to get a phoenix to scout, then a void for defense while you wait for your mothership to arive (park the void over the third), then 4 more phoenixes for queen-hunting. The bottomline is that, without a dedicated attack from the zerg (beyond a couple dozen lings at the third), the toss will get his third and the zerg will eventually get a fourth, but it's the protoss's job to slow down the 4th while it controls the sky. - Behind this Zerg has made a spire and an infestation pit, planning to make 6-10 corrupters to scout your base to see if you really are going mass air, or making a Robo transition. Exactly what are you going to do? If you pull your units back to clean up the speedlings, my fourth base finish. If you just use the Mothership that pops out, it'll take a good while to clean up the lings. When burrow finishes, it becomes even more troublesome.Then again, this wasn't my main concern with the build. Even if you do some damage and your third is not delayed, later on I'm going to have a ring of vision around your base. I'll see the minute you move out and try to engage your army as close to your base as I can with my Infestor/Corrupter mix. I'll have gone double spire for upgrades, and keep on tossing stuff at you to keep you on three bases. I'll happily sacrifice some corrupters for a Mothership/Carriers, because Voidrays just melt to Infestor play. Assuming your opponent is on equal skill with you, and will do anything he can to force you to stay in your base in the security of cannons, how would you stop him from taking the map? The point of the Phoenix harass, which comes pre-spire and pre-infestors, is to kill queens. If you kill some queens, the other queens have to focus on injects while new ones are built. That means less creep tumors, which means slower creep spread, which means more time for the toss to get a Robo, an obs, and start controlling tumors with one Void/Zealot and one Obs rolling around the map. You don't need an army to slow down creep tumors; one unit does just fine. The goal is to move out when the timing is strong. Good move-out timings include: -Level 2 air weapons attacks with carriers (this comes really fast if you rush to carriers) -Level 3 air weapons attacks with carriers -200 food max-out -A 300 food push where you trade armies as effeciently as properly and then remax; often (but not always) to a different unit mix -Having AoE with the army -Any time the mothership has ~90 energy, which is almost enough for a Recall (or if you want to be safe, enough for a Recall and almost enough for a Vortex, so 190) -You can also create timing windows with multipronged aggression, such as sending a fleet out in one way and attacking with warp prisms/blink stalkers in 2 other spots. That doesn't mean all of the timings will work; it's just potential move-out windows, just like stim finishing or having 2 Colossi with range. I know we're both speaking a lot in theory and things don't always work out in games they way they do on paper, but hopefully I was able to give you some insight into some of the Protoss's plans to deal with the Zerg's lings-->4th-->Infestor/Corruptor max-out for map control. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: Your opponent scouts you going air, thats all cool and fine. Now your opponent makes a decent round of Zerglings, and plants them in a split out fashion on your third before the base goes up. You didn't mention if they were burrowed or not. If zerg rushed burrow his econ will be hurt pretty badly, just make 1 cannon first and it's justified imo. Use your void rays/zealots to constantly clip at them and thin out the numbers while making the third. On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: Your Voidrays/Phoenix did no real damage worth mentioning. At this point Zerg is taking a fourth base aswell, in the middle at the gold, as a standard reaction to the heavy air play. I don't see the problem here, this is the standard progression. Often times I don't even send my units across the map to attempt damage. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: Your opponent scouts you going air, thats all cool and fine. Now your opponent makes a decent round of Zerglings, and plants them in a split out fashion on your third before the base goes up. You didn't mention if they were burrowed or not. If zerg rushed burrow his econ will be hurt pretty badly, just make 1 cannon first and it's justified imo. Use your void rays/zealots to constantly clip at them and thin out the numbers while making the third. On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: Your Voidrays/Phoenix did no real damage worth mentioning. At this point Zerg is taking a fourth base aswell, in the middle at the gold, as a standard reaction to the heavy air play. I don't see the problem here, this is the standard progression. Often times I don't even send my units across the map to attempt damage. On July 11 2012 15:49 Xana wrote: - Behind this Zerg has made a spire and an infestation pit, planning to make 6-10 corrupters to scout your base to see if you really are going mass air, or making a Robo transition. Exactly what are you going to do? If you pull your units back to clean up the speedlings, my fourth base finish. If you just use the Mothership that pops out, it'll take a good while to clean up the lings. When burrow finishes, it becomes even more troublesome.Then again, this wasn't my main concern with the build. Even if you do some damage and your third is not delayed, later on I'm going to have a ring of vision around your base. I'll see the minute you move out and try to engage your army as close to your base as I can with my Infestor/Corrupter mix. I'll have gone double spire for upgrades, and keep on tossing stuff at you to keep you on three bases. I'll happily sacrifice some corrupters for a Mothership/Carriers, because Voidrays just melt to Infestor play. Assuming your opponent is on equal skill with you, and will do anything he can to force you to stay in your base in the security of cannons, how would you stop him from taking the map? This is pretty broad and hard to answer, however, I think you are underestimating the strength of the army, overall. ineversmile mentions some plausible timing windows.\ Here is a game I played against a similar style to the one you described. http://drop.sc/218616 On July 11 2012 17:09 ineversmile wrote: The goal is to move out when the timing is strong. Good move-out timings include: -Level 2 air weapons attacks with carriers (this comes really fast if you rush to carriers) -Level 3 air weapons attacks with carriers -200 food max-out -A 300 food push where you trade armies as effeciently as properly and then remax; often (but not always) to a different unit mix -Having AoE with the army -Any time the mothership has ~90 energy, which is almost enough for a Recall (or if you want to be safe, enough for a Recall and almost enough for a Vortex, so 190) -You can also create timing windows with multipronged aggression, such as sending a fleet out in one way and attacking with warp prisms/blink stalkers in 2 other spots. That doesn't mean all of the timings will work; it's just potential move-out windows, just like stim finishing or having 2 Colossi with range. I know we're both speaking a lot in theory and things don't always work out in games they way they do on paper, but hopefully I was able to give you some insight into some of the Protoss's plans to deal with the Zerg's lings-->4th-->Infestor/Corruptor max-out for map control. | ||
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
When you have no ground army, zerg forces are not hindered by pathing and void ray dps isn't that great against lings, this makes me wonder what would happen if a zerg just ran a bunch of speedlings through your base. You don't seem to like sentries (or gateways) that much but instead favor cannons for this type of thing. You don't start making additional cannons early enough to fend off possible ling attacks, though. Take for example the replay you provided in the post right above this one. Your opponent, a supposedly #13 master, plays more like a platinum to me (up to the point where I had to stop watching the replay halfway through because nothing would be strategically relevant anymore due to your opponent's inability to play even semi-decent). You take an extremely early 3rd directly under his overlord (was it 8-9 minutes?). He does absolutely nothing. In fact, he doesn't even have speed started. What I wonder is what would happen if he made 20 to 30 speedlings and forced a cancel on your 3rd, or what would happen if he would do any sort of run-by, or just any sort of timing attacks with anti-air (infestors mainly as hydra aren't that great). This never seems to happen in your games. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On July 11 2012 21:52 the p00n wrote: When you have no ground army, zerg forces are not hindered by pathing and void ray dps isn't that great against lings, this makes me wonder what would happen if a zerg just ran a bunch of speedlings through your base. You don't seem to like sentries (or gateways) that much but instead favor cannons for this type of thing. You don't start making additional cannons early enough to fend off possible ling attacks, though. I'm getting really good at placing cannons in each mineral line and walling them in with pylons, it does wonders against a runby. Sometimes, I forget, and I'm also not sure of the exact timing of when I need to make these, but it's not like it can't be dealt with. On July 11 2012 21:52 the p00n wrote:What I wonder is what would happen if he made 20 to 30 speedlings and forced a cancel on your 3rd, or what would happen if he would do any sort of run-by, or just any sort of timing attacks with anti-air (infestors mainly as hydra aren't that great). This never seems to happen in your games. what would happen is he would have 100% have 10-15 less drones, he would possibly force a cancel, depending on our execution/micro, and then it would just go right back up except a minute later, with slower econs for both of us. I mean, its a turtle build and not some sharp timing, so its not like instant GG if the third is delayed a little. | ||
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emaster
United States32 Posts
On July 11 2012 10:49 HelioSeven wrote: Anywho, more towards the point at hand: - Macro nexus, if applicable, should be going down shortly after your natural expansion finishes. - I very often double cyber core, but not always. If I have the extra chrono of a macro nexus, then I always do. I don't have any strict criterion for this one, though, you just gotta kind of wing it. - I always go phoenix first, before any void rays. Unless I'm being roach rushed and I absolutely need that void ray out, the 35 seconds to build a phoenix (25 with chrono) doesn't delay anything, and earliest scouting information is always the best scouting information. - Transition into storm/carriers is entirely dependent upon your opponent's anti-air choices. Hydras, because they are so slow off creep, are generally a defensive unit and you are somewhat safe just straight massing carriers against them off of 4 SGs. Corruptors require more void rays in your composition, thus less SGs, and thus a faster transition to storm. Against infestors I cut all void ray production immediately, make carriers off the stargates I have, and transition as fast as possible to HTs. mkay so about that macro nexus... its not really possible to have enough mins for when the nex finishes unless you completely skip the zealot attack, and any units beyond the first unit and any cannons in addition to the first cannon. Let me make sure I'm clear, your plan is to have 1 zealot and 1 cannon the entire time between starting your nex and about a minute after it finishes? GL surviving any 2 base low tech aggression. Right as my nexus finishes, i'm usually very very starved for minerals. I find that I actually have to pull guys off of gas after getting my plus 1 ground attack up. including the +1 2 gate zealot attack really really helps with this play, it in fact, gives you more gas to do the fleet beacon cuz you delay stargates until you basically got all your gas going. You put down cyber then collect all your gasses. And to anyone who says voidrays are bad vs corruptors.... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL omfg, The only thing voids are more cost effective against is roaches haha. It wouldn't suprise me if a maxed army of void rays could defeat a maxed army of corruptors, and then wait for a remax, and defeat that again without reinforcements. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On July 12 2012 02:36 emaster wrote: And to anyone who says voidrays are bad vs corruptors.... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL omfg, The only thing voids are more cost effective against is roaches haha. It wouldn't suprise me if a maxed army of void rays could defeat a maxed army of corruptors, and then wait for a remax, and defeat that again without reinforcements. Agreed! Also, I think that max upgrades benefit voids better than corruptors (3 upgrades, super expensive, instead of 2) Storms help make it so one-sided that it's painful to watch. In fact, in that link, Squirtle uses carriers extremely cost-effectively against the zerg player, thanks to HTs to feedback + storm everything to shit. I wish I played protoss haha. | ||
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emaster
United States32 Posts
Carrier HT is just about unbeatable, with any race against it. the problem is, is that interceptors themselves are very cost ineffective. Basically, any army can just kill the interceptors cost effectively, so there isn't even a need to go for the carriers really. When you add in HT, though, then you are owning all shit. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Just feel like if this is done even stronger by GM players, I lose. Also, I think this build is largely dependant on catching your opponent by surprise and not a solid macro strat which you can use for all games in a BO5 for example. Sigh... back to losing vs broodlord infestor. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On July 12 2012 02:36 emaster wrote: mkay so about that macro nexus... its not really possible to have enough mins for when the nex finishes unless you completely skip the zealot attack, and any units beyond the first unit and any cannons in addition to the first cannon. Let me make sure I'm clear, your plan is to have 1 zealot and 1 cannon the entire time between starting your nex and about a minute after it finishes? GL surviving any 2 base low tech aggression. Right as my nexus finishes, i'm usually very very starved for minerals. I find that I actually have to pull guys off of gas after getting my plus 1 ground attack up. I agree with this being wrong. You should get a Sentry and a Void Ray at minimum and then get Phoenixes after the defensive void, and then you can warp in a second Sentry and have about 4 forcefields and a bit of time to sim-city backwards while your void deals with pressure. I only advocate the zealot as a way to plug a gap in a wall-off; on some maps I would rather just skip it. including the +1 2 gate zealot attack really really helps with this play, it in fact, gives you more gas to do the fleet beacon cuz you delay stargates until you basically got all your gas going. You put down cyber then collect all your gasses. I like the Zealot timings with this build too; I just don't always use them because I like to have a variety of builds. And to anyone who says voidrays are bad vs corruptors.... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL omfg, The only thing voids are more cost effective against is roaches haha. It wouldn't suprise me if a maxed army of void rays could defeat a maxed army of corruptors, and then wait for a remax, and defeat that again without reinforcements. -Corruptors move faster than Void Rays, so they can control the engagements. -With the corruption ability on, a Corruptor does 7.4 DPS times 120%=8.88 DPS. Since it's a 2-food unit, you could say it does 4.44 DPS per supply. -An uncharged Void Ray does 10+4=14 DPS vs armored. Since it's a 3-food unit, you could say it does 4.666667 DPS per supply. That's favorable for void rays, but not that favorable. In an even fight without charge, Void are going to trade favorably against Corruptors, but then in the remax stage your opponent will have a maxed army almost instantaneously while you're rebuilding your army. Even if you win the guessing game with composition choice, you need a huge bank and tons of stargates to match their remax within a minute and a half, and in that timing window they can go across the map and do a lot of damage. Now, obviously the goal is to fight Corruptors with Voids and Storm and Archons and Mothership support, but I'm really sick of people trying to tell me that Voids beat the crap out of Corruptors on their own. They don't. They marginally win the fight without upgrade advantages and, with them, they only get exponentially better while charged. The Corruptors can shift-click focus fire and then run away when charge happens, whereas if voids shift-click focus fire they're not going to charge up very well and the fight will remain relatively even. Sure, I want to imagine that I'm always going to fight Corruptors with even food Void Rays and with caster support and Archons, but that's just not realistic. I need to be able to count on my army in situations where things are scrappy and uneven, and that's the flaw in massing Voids. Believe me, there's a few flaws in using stalkers as the core of your army, but right now I stand on the stalker side of the trade-off fence because they're just a more trustworthy unit. And, most of all, Stalkers run the same pace as Corruptors and they get blink, which means they can chase them down and kill units for free. Voids don't do that unless you fight at their base and they run away whie you kill buildings...aka winning more when you're already winning. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On July 12 2012 05:20 Daimai wrote: This replay made me lose faith of this build: http://drop.sc/218765 You can't blame the build, you made so many mistakes... Macro-wise, it's not pretty, 17' into the game and you're still barely at 60 probes. Your build wasn't optimal, you started your mothership a bit too late ( around 10' ) while you're floating tons of gas. I'm pretty sure you could have started it 30s earlier while keeping the same pressure. In addition, you started your third 30s too late ( you were floating minerals during your attack, but only started the third after your snipped the hatch.. ). So you're lagging behind by a whole minute to set your third up, which means that when Zerg countered, you were not ready to defend, and had to cancel.. but okay, you were still in the game at that stage. On this map you should have walled off the ramp at the natural. And put many more cannons there. you lose the game because at 15', Zerg attacks a second time and that's where it gets ugly. You vortex him but he splits his army in two, one half goes to prevent your third, the other half remains in the vortex, and you get indecisive about what to do. In the end you kill a couple of his units while your third gets killed a second time, we're now around 16' and you still don't have a third up and running. Had you got a wall-off at the natural, this would have been impossible. This build relies on canons and sim-city to properly defend your bases. You can't defend your natural with just a single canon, you have to dump your mineral excess into a lot more canons everywhere.. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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emaster
United States32 Posts
And he only sprinkled in hydra, it was mostly corruptor. Okay, so here is the biggest problem I see with that build done in the game. the zealot pressure isn't optimal... you want to do a single push with plus one zealots from gateways, and just skip warpgate altogether. You spent WAYYY too many minerals in zealots. It ended up being okay, ish, because you killed his third, but at what price?? killing his third and having him re take it within a minute with a 4th isn't worth spending so many minerals in zealots that you can't have enough cannons to defend shit. You should be able to put 8 cannons down at your third. with 5-6 cannons at natural. That might be overkill, but you have more than enough minerals to do it. Also, you get too much gas too early. You have more gas than minerals until, like, the 17 minute mark, even while underbuilding cannons. You should start off with one gas, or just 2 workers in each gas at the very least, for a little while. So if you followed advice proposed by nyast and had faster third, then my advice with more cannons, = ez hold on third. When you get third you add in another stargate or two, depending on whether you are staying on void or carrier, maybe 2nd cyber core for ups, preference. Also, its important to start going up to HT tech after you got gas from your third. That lines up nicely because thats about the time you really need storm/feedback or archon. At that point, you can go completely skytoss + ht and bend them over. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On July 12 2012 05:20 Daimai wrote: This replay made me lose faith of this build: http://drop.sc/218765 Just feel like if this is done even stronger by GM players, I lose. Also, I think this build is largely dependant on catching your opponent by surprise and not a solid macro strat which you can use for all games in a BO5 for example. Sigh... back to losing vs broodlord infestor. Dude you played it so wrong, I mean it, it's painful to watch. But let's do a step-by-step. 1. You scout 14 pool and still go forge-nexus. You can safely go nexus first on cloud kingdom against 14 pool, or just go 17 forge 17 nexus if you want to be supersafe. 2. Cybercore was delayed. 3.You go for a 4 gate+1 with VR attack. And actually For a moment there i thought that you're not going to play sky toss. 4. You put 1!! cannon in your wall-off 5. Losing 2 VR in the engagement at 3rd, eventually you are able to snipe it, though i really think the cost was too high. 6. @8.50 you start fleet beacon. IMO that is extremely late. 7. So while you try to take your 3rd, zerg is trying to double expand to 3rd and 4th and you scout the hydra switch, but don't change your tech, so you have no carriers or HT. 8. Cannon placement is bad, and zerg abuse it to snipe the 3rd. 9 You blindly fly into his 4th and snipe it, finding out that he has corrupters 10 Your MS is floating in the middle of nowhere you have like 6 cannons with all 6 of them in the 3rd, so when zerg attacks he just enters your nat and starts slaughtering probes. 11. Twice your remaining VR destroy zergs army, that tries to attack you. But you have only 1 mining base left. 12. 20+ minutes in the game, no tech past VR. TL;DR Execution was bad. Too many unnececary loses. Very risky style to play with initial +1 ground attack. This delays your expo, tech and MS. Almost NO fucking cannons made! Dude, cannons are the core of this build, your MS should be over your thids and HEAVY cannoned. You should build a scouting phoenix from SG and check what tech Z is going and adapt your army. I think you can do much better than what I saw on that rep. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 12 2012 02:36 emaster wrote: mkay so about that macro nexus... its not really possible to have enough mins for when the nex finishes unless you completely skip the zealot attack, and any units beyond the first unit and any cannons in addition to the first cannon. Let me make sure I'm clear, your plan is to have 1 zealot and 1 cannon the entire time between starting your nex and about a minute after it finishes? GL surviving any 2 base low tech aggression. Right as my nexus finishes, i'm usually very very starved for minerals. I find that I actually have to pull guys off of gas after getting my plus 1 ground attack up. including the +1 2 gate zealot attack really really helps with this play, it in fact, gives you more gas to do the fleet beacon cuz you delay stargates until you basically got all your gas going. You put down cyber then collect all your gasses. And to anyone who says voidrays are bad vs corruptors.... LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL omfg, The only thing voids are more cost effective against is roaches haha. It wouldn't suprise me if a maxed army of void rays could defeat a maxed army of corruptors, and then wait for a remax, and defeat that again without reinforcements. Well I mean yeah, what were you expecting with an extreme econ build like a macro nexus? Of course you're not going to be able to put on +1 zealot pressure and go for a macro nexus at the same time. And don't get me wrong, I love me some old fashioned +1 zealot w/ void ray pressure, but the other way to deal with a greedy Zerg is just be greedy yourself. It's not as susceptible to 2 base aggression as you might think, mostly because the wall is much stronger. If you scout correctly, cut probes and set up additional cannons at the right time, you should come out okay. That said, it's obviously much safer to do a macro nexus build on large, macro oriented maps such as Condemned or Entombed. On July 12 2012 05:53 ineversmile wrote: -Corruptors move faster than Void Rays, so they can control the engagements. -With the corruption ability on, a Corruptor does 7.4 DPS times 120%=8.88 DPS. Since it's a 2-food unit, you could say it does 4.44 DPS per supply. -An uncharged Void Ray does 10+4=14 DPS vs armored. Since it's a 3-food unit, you could say it does 4.666667 DPS per supply. That's favorable for void rays, but not that favorable. In an even fight without charge, Void are going to trade favorably against Corruptors, but then in the remax stage your opponent will have a maxed army almost instantaneously while you're rebuilding your army. Even if you win the guessing game with composition choice, you need a huge bank and tons of stargates to match their remax within a minute and a half, and in that timing window they can go across the map and do a lot of damage. Now, obviously the goal is to fight Corruptors with Voids and Storm and Archons and Mothership support, but I'm really sick of people trying to tell me that Voids beat the crap out of Corruptors on their own. They don't. They marginally win the fight without upgrade advantages and, with them, they only get exponentially better while charged. The Corruptors can shift-click focus fire and then run away when charge happens, whereas if voids shift-click focus fire they're not going to charge up very well and the fight will remain relatively even. Sure, I want to imagine that I'm always going to fight Corruptors with even food Void Rays and with caster support and Archons, but that's just not realistic. I need to be able to count on my army in situations where things are scrappy and uneven, and that's the flaw in massing Voids. Believe me, there's a few flaws in using stalkers as the core of your army, but right now I stand on the stalker side of the trade-off fence because they're just a more trustworthy unit. And, most of all, Stalkers run the same pace as Corruptors and they get blink, which means they can chase them down and kill units for free. Voids don't do that unless you fight at their base and they run away whie you kill buildings...aka winning more when you're already winning. I'm not entirely sure you understand how carrier/void ray works. Void rays reach peak damage output several seconds after the engagement begins, ie when they are charged up. Carriers reach peak damage output immediately, as all the interceptors are being launched with graviton catapult. This is where the inherent synergy comes from: carriers do massive amounts of damage in the first 1.5 seconds of the fight, and shortly thereafter the void rays get charged. There is no favorable time of engagement for a corruptor ball. You can't just run in, snipe some void rays, and then leave before they get charged, you'll lose way too many corruptors to the initial volley of the carriers. If you try to snipe the carriers, they can abuse their superior range to continue engaging as they retreat, giving the void rays plenty of time to charge up. The only time that dps/supply could possibly matter is in a maxed out army scenario, when you're going to have storm and archon support anyway. In mid-game numbers, corruptors alone should never be able to beat a good Skytoss composition, there simply isn't a way for them to be cost efficient without infestor, queen, or spore crawler support. | ||
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ajkayken
77 Posts
i think vr/carrier is definitely the future of the matchup. spread well to avoid fungals, storm against infested terrans/corrupters. it really is the true unbeatable army in the matchup | ||
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