EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
Would love to watch him practice with this style many times against a zerg who tried to exploit it, and really define where the holes are so you know what risks your taking. A reasonable assumption is that he believes it is not viable as an everygame build due to the greediness in play, and there are probably some timings that can exploit it. It's something he can just bust out in a BOX on a macro map if he has a "read" that the Zerg will rush tech/eco. Zergs are moving away from big busts and just going for 3 minute Hives so it kinda makes sense. My take on the build is designed to hold most all timing attacks on the third, but is definitely weaker with regard to establishing a consistent fourth base. His build looks a bit greedier and relies on minimum defenses and calculated risks combined with PRO micro  I still think stalkers are one of the most overrated units in the game, though.  I'd rather see him mix in archons and some chargelots instead of stalkers, but what do I know :D | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
But the most important point is that he took a fast third, and that the Zerg went fast hive as an answer. This bought him enough time to get his tech and army up until Zerg realized what was really happening. Zerg had many chances to scout his build, but missed all those opportunities. No overseer flying in main.. the roach push also missed all those stargates. Zerg saw stalkers and templars so he was kind of mislead. I think he was basically metagamed. So I don't think that's a safe build you could use on ladder, for example. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
That said, something to worry about is being caught off guard against too large a muta flock, particularly if they go for your stargates first. Usually you will find the spire/small number of mutalisks to give yourself phoenix production time, but if they catch you with too many voids it's a death for you. Fighting near the cannons makes the mutas much less capable however, and with this build you should have tons of cannons. Something I find beneficial to add with this build is an observer after a few void rays to push back creep. It really slows down their push, and makes them only have two resorts: hydra drops or nydus, both of which can countered easily enough with a roaming void ray. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
On July 10 2012 20:50 xAdra wrote: After playing a couple of games with this strategy (in SEA high platinum level) I can safely say that most zergs below masters will die to it if they aren't particularly experienced at dealing with it. Hydralisks are easily outmanoeuvred, Corruptors are highly inefficient to voids/carriers and infestors can only really screw you up if you let them. That said, something to worry about is being caught off guard against too large a muta flock, particularly if they go for your stargates first. Usually you will find the spire/small number of mutalisks to give yourself phoenix production time, but if they catch you with too many voids it's a death for you. Fighting near the cannons makes the mutas much less capable however, and with this build you should have tons of cannons. Something I find beneficial to add with this build is an observer after a few void rays to push back creep. It really slows down their push, and makes them only have two resorts: hydra drops or nydus, both of which can countered easily enough with a roaming void ray. Definitively agree with this. Mass muta switch can be really painful, but if you protect your stargates, even two of them can pump out a lot of phoenixes in a relatively short time. Also, don't forget that range upgrade  I have been playing with switching from airtoss into ground once I get my third safely. I still feel this is the biggest advantage of this build, you know, safe three bases, safety from all the different early and mid game all ins and the such. I know I'm terrible btw, this is against diamond zergs :D Here's a game of me playing and winning against mass muta switch: http://drop.sc/218003 And here's just another game where I go into ground. http://drop.sc/218004 I would like for more higher level players to comment if this is really a solid way to play. I for one find it fun and effective. It's nice to be able to use almost all the protoss units in a single game | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
Right now usually toss go Robo-sentry to try and take 3rd (if not allin), but if you go stargate into fast MS with the fast MS and gateway army (only produce 1 phx off SG to scout). So this can probably be a different tech into thirds, so when your third is Up+ms you can transition into gateway-robo play w/ Ms and/or recall. (most probably mass blink stalker-recall). Sounds reasonable, no? | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
The Zerg thought he could go muta with 3 base but NOPE :D http://drop.sc/218020 Greetings. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
Eventually I'll come to the perfect late game composition against zerg that all the pros now do, that is MS, blink stalkers, colossus, archons and a few carriers. The significant difference is that my air units will have very good upgrades by then. | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
On July 10 2012 23:02 -MoOsE- wrote: I like going up to 10 voids or so off of 3 stargates and then throw down like 10 extra gates and take my 4th off of that. If the zerg overmakes corrupters your ground army crushes him and if he makes to much ground force your v rays kill him, so he has to have the perfect unit comibination to fight this. Yeah MoOsE, that's the plan A simple rule I use is, if he makes too many corruptors, make gateways and stalkers, if he goes mass hydras then I throw down two robos and start double colossus production and focus on gateways later. HTs with storm after that, no matter his composition. You're going to need archons anyway. Whatever the case, I believe now that transitioning into ground in some way is preferable than staying only in air. | ||
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xAdra
Singapore1858 Posts
However, I feel that switching to mass ground, while definitely a good idea in practice, is not very comfortable to me at the moment because I can never fit in the ground upgrades. Anyone give me some advice on this? Also, how do you feel about using warp prisms+dts to strike where your voids aren't (to form a sort of double pronged attack)? Also, I have to add that I made an account just to post on this thread, because of how much this strategy has made my PvZ more bearable. Call me lazy if you want, but I have had enough of trying to counter the roach remax. Being sick and tired of such a thing, skytoss has helped me make sure that I never lay my eyes on any mass roach armies ever again. | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
I can tell you with 100% certainty that you don't need to transition to ground to have a ridiculous success rate vs top8 diamond and low masters. It might be nice for some reasons, but I really like having a pure air army, because any time there's dead space on a map my forces sing. They fly in from the darkness and rape a base. By the way, if you guys aren't flying into an expo or the main every 100 energy on the MS, and focusing hatches immediately, completely ignoring all spores until the hatch is dead, you're seriously missing out. I basically get a guaranteed hatch kill every 100 energy. It completely wrecks the zerg's mindset. Even 4-6 spores won't delay me, because I focus the hatch first (maybe lose 1 void), then go on to kill spores -if- his army hasn't showed up yet. | ||
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
On July 11 2012 05:02 trbot wrote: I actually go pure air with fast ups every game. The only ground I add is high templar in the late-game. (Well, I occasionally add some zealot warpings for harrassment.) I have a >90% winrate vs top8 diamonds. I can tell you with 100% certainty that you don't need to transition to ground to have a ridiculous success rate vs top8 diamond and low masters. It might be nice for some reasons, but I really like having a pure air army, because any time there's dead space on a map my forces sing. They fly in from the darkness and rape a base. By the way, if you guys aren't flying into an expo or the main every 100 energy on the MS, and focusing hatches immediately, completely ignoring all spores until the hatch is dead, you're seriously missing out. I basically get a guaranteed hatch kill every 100 energy. It completely wrecks the zerg's mindset. Even 4-6 spores won't delay me, because I focus the hatch first (maybe lose 1 void), then go on to kill spores -if- his army hasn't showed up yet. Well yes, nothing against pure air style, I have been playing that for a while now. While it's very fun, I feel it also has its disadvantages. A maxed corruptor infestor army trades quite good against it. There is also the very real threat of MS sniping with corruptors, as another poster identified. One bad engagement and you're pretty much dead, as it's very slow and costly to rebuild an air army. And while storm is a must and it helps a lot, smart players will fly their corruptors into your army so if you storm you're storming your units too. Now with ground added to the mix, I feel it gives you more flexibility, in a way that it's easier to exploit many unit compositions zerg will make. If he overproduces corruptors you go ground, if he goes roach hydra for some reason you stay air, if he goes mass infestor hydra and some corruptors you can stay air and use storms to win, etc. I also believe it's more efficient in regards to mineral usage. I mean there's only so many cannons you can build until it's just wasteful to make more, while there are many good options if you have gateways. In the end air is proven to work ok in diamond and to some degree in masters. Maybe air into ground can work even in GM, who knows? I sure don't :D | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
I think Voids are always going to be at least somewhat useful because they can defend bases and you can build them to help deter/punish Roach pushes and all-ins, or to go out and snipe a hatch/apply some kind of pressure. But as a standing army, I'm just not using them anymore. It doesn't work as a core army unit; its job is to shoot down armored antiair and it doesn't actually do that effectively against Corruptors. So I would much rather use Stalkers in this role; even though they aren't high DPS, they actually do counter Corruptors and they don't use the charge mechanic, which is basically terrible for maxed army fights. So I am definitely a fan of Stalker/Carrier/HT here because the Stalkers are a hell of a lot more reliable than Void Rays in major engagements. | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:01 Shikada wrote: A maxed corruptor infestor army trades quite good against it. There is also the very real threat of MS sniping with corruptors, as another poster identified. I actually disagree with this.. When you have ht mixed in, you can feedback the hell out of his infestors, and the corruptors melt instantly. I frequently face off with a maxed infestor corruptor army and, after the battle, he has 120 supply to my 180. As for mothership sniping, I guarantee he will lose his entire army if he tries. I leave my mothership over 12 cannons at all times. This has happened before (see the first replay I posted a few pages back), and I just obliterate his army then kill him since I lost essentially nothing. This is how it goes. Zerg flies up to my mothership, getting fired upon by 12 cannons. I recall my army. He kills my mothership, and by the time he's done, I've obliterated his entire army and lost 10-20 supply, -tops-. On July 11 2012 06:01 Shikada wrote: One bad engagement and you're pretty much dead, as it's very slow and costly to rebuild an air army. And while storm is a must and it helps a lot, smart players will fly their corruptors into your army so if you storm you're storming your units too. I'll never be in a bad engagement because I can recall out. As for rebuilding an air army, I've actually never needed to. I've played about 30 games with this style, and I've rarely lost more than 40 supply in my worst battles. (Note that I'm engaging with a close-to-maxed army.) As for corruptors flying into your army, that happened in one of the replays I posted earlier, too... It turns out carriers can withstand storms far better than his corruptors can... =) There might be some kind of magic boxing zerg could do, but I think that would make voids hyper effective (since each will target the closest corruptor and get a full charge quickly). As for people saying that corruptors do well vs voids, when it's large numbers vs large numbers, they absolutely don't. Try it in the unit tester... 37 voids vs 56 corruptors with equal upgrades ends with 17-20 voids left with no micro. Even if the corruptors use corruption when the battle starts, it isn't much different. If you mix a few archons in, it becomes a complete roflstomp. If he magicboxes to avoid storm, it's FAR worse, with almost all voids surviving. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
When do you get your macro nexus? Do you double cycore? When do you work in phoenii for scouting, after the first couple of voids? I have a lot of downtime during this part of the game, I feel it should be then. When do you begin your transition to storm, and carriers? I have several nasty engagements because my carriers and storm are too late, should I be getting them earlier? I could easily have lost this game, and it's got me worried that I need to improve. http://drop.sc/218412 | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 11 2012 08:58 trbot wrote: As for people saying that corruptors do well vs voids, when it's large numbers vs large numbers, they absolutely don't. Try it in the unit tester... 37 voids vs 56 corruptors with equal upgrades ends with 17-20 voids left with no micro. Even if the corruptors use corruption when the battle starts, it isn't much different. If you mix a few archons in, it becomes a complete roflstomp. If he magicboxes to avoid storm, it's FAR worse, with almost all voids surviving. To piggy-back off this, I want to point out the numbers involved. Corruptors only get bonus damage against massive, not armored, so against void rays they have a dps of 7.4 (+0.5). Void rays, however, even without being charged, get a bonus vs armored and have a dps against corruptors of 16.7 (+1.7). If they get charged, that goes up to 26.6 (+3.4). Void rays do really well against corruptors, and scale much better with upgrades as well. Throw some carriers behind them and it's not even funny how quickly corruptors die. Seeing as how void rays have more health than corruptors (150 health + 100 shields vs just 200 health), the only thing the corruptors have going for them is their 2 base armor, which honestly doesn't help all that much at all. If you're on 3 or 4 base with as many stargates and you're not producing void rays to counter the corruptor threat, you are doing Skytoss all wrong. On July 11 2012 09:22 ThaReckoning wrote: I have a few questions that you can maybe answer, and watching this replay should help as well. This is a 500 point NA masters game, so relatively low masters. Some questions I have: When do you get your macro nexus? Do you double cycore? When do you work in phoenii for scouting, after the first couple of voids? I have a lot of downtime during this part of the game, I feel it should be then. When do you begin your transition to storm, and carriers? I have several nasty engagements because my carriers and storm are too late, should I be getting them earlier? I could easily have lost this game, and it's got me worried that I need to improve. http://drop.sc/218412 Small note from someone who speaks Latin and is rather finicky about etymology: phoenii isn't a word. In English, plural of phoenix is either phoenix or phoenixes, in Latin, plural of phoenīx is phoenīcēs, so no phoenii. Just to add to the confusion, though, nexi is an acceptable pluralization of nexus (technically nexī, but I can forgive the lack of accent marks in ASCII). Anywho, more towards the point at hand: - Macro nexus, if applicable, should be going down shortly after your natural expansion finishes. - I very often double cyber core, but not always. If I have the extra chrono of a macro nexus, then I always do. I don't have any strict criterion for this one, though, you just gotta kind of wing it. - I always go phoenix first, before any void rays. Unless I'm being roach rushed and I absolutely need that void ray out, the 35 seconds to build a phoenix (25 with chrono) doesn't delay anything, and earliest scouting information is always the best scouting information. - Transition into storm/carriers is entirely dependent upon your opponent's anti-air choices. Hydras, because they are so slow off creep, are generally a defensive unit and you are somewhat safe just straight massing carriers against them off of 4 SGs. Corruptors require more void rays in your composition, thus less SGs, and thus a faster transition to storm. Against infestors I cut all void ray production immediately, make carriers off the stargates I have, and transition as fast as possible to HTs. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
On July 11 2012 07:46 ineversmile wrote: The fundamental problem with staying mass air is that Void Rays are supposed to be your counter to Corruptors, but they don't actually function that way. The Corruptors will win that fight before the Voids are charged, and rarely will engagements begin with your Voids charged up. There's also the issue that Corruptors can focus fire down the Voids and do their full damage, whereas if Voids do that they don't charge up because they're changing targets constantly. I think Voids are always going to be at least somewhat useful because they can defend bases and you can build them to help deter/punish Roach pushes and all-ins, or to go out and snipe a hatch/apply some kind of pressure. But as a standing army, I'm just not using them anymore. It doesn't work as a core army unit; its job is to shoot down armored antiair and it doesn't actually do that effectively against Corruptors. So I would much rather use Stalkers in this role; even though they aren't high DPS, they actually do counter Corruptors and they don't use the charge mechanic, which is basically terrible for maxed army fights. So I am definitely a fan of Stalker/Carrier/HT here because the Stalkers are a hell of a lot more reliable than Void Rays in major engagements. You shouldnt fight corrupters with pure VR in direct fight. You MUST have archon if you want to fight face to face. And templars should storm the infestor. Stalkers are not that good. | ||
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