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Nexus won't finish in time for a 6 pool, obv, but thats what scouting is for.
I don't see how nexus improves wall at all... the reason forge and gates are good is because they provide beef in front, and cannons in back can attack anything that tries to attack the wall. If you put nexus in front, suddenly, cannons have lost all their effectiveness. You might as well only have 1 cannon. Zerg, of course, can and usually will just play greedy in response. But a nexus doesn't improve the wall, it makes it a million times worse. Maybe in HOTS when it can be a cannon itself its great, but until then, its just a free kill for any ranged unit who wants to attack it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, if a cannon can indeed attack roaches from behind a wall, I'll rescind my statement. And to your credit, I will say that wall should be GREAT vs baneling busts.
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On July 12 2012 15:04 emaster wrote:
Nexus won't finish in time for a 6 pool, obv, but thats what scouting is for.
I don't see how nexus improves wall at all... the reason forge and gates are good is because they provide beef in front, and cannons in back can attack anything that tries to attack the wall. If you put nexus in front, suddenly, cannons have lost all their effectiveness. You might as well only have 1 cannon. Zerg, of course, can and usually will just play greedy in response. But a nexus doesn't improve the wall, it makes it a million times worse. Maybe in HOTS when it can be a cannon itself its great, but until then, its just a free kill for any ranged unit who wants to attack it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, if a cannon can indeed attack roaches from behind a wall, I'll rescind my statement. And to your credit, I will say that wall should be GREAT vs baneling busts.
You natural expansion won't finish before a 6 pool, let alone a wall-off. I fail to see how that's relevant. And you shouldn't have a Zerg play greedy in response to this, as I stated above, a macro nexus should be in response to your opponent playing greedy, not the other way around.
Anywho, here's the setup I use on Entombed (it's pretty similar on most maps):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RotVg.jpg)
As the zealot shows, there is a 1 hex space at the corner of the nexus, allowing traffic in and out despite the fact that it looks like a complete wall off (see Liquidpedia's entry on walling off for further information regarding the "tightness" of walls and 5x5 buildings). As the ghost pylon also shows, you can still wall-off normally after the forge and gateways are down, in the event that you scout something that makes you not want to put down the macro nexus. Both cannons cover the entire ramp, so it's about as roach-proof as walls get. The only weakness to baneling busts is the usual weakness, the zealot. Don't know what to tell you on that front except have a sentry ready.
The only immediate disadvantage to this wall-off type that comes to mind is that you can't use either cannon to assist in taking down the destructible rocks when it comes time to do that, but you might as well set up a cannon on the other side to defend the other ramp anyway. Plus I suppose you could always flip the wall around (nexus at the bottom, forge off to the right), as I don't think that would interfere with your natural expansion.
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I'm still afraid of the enemy having ranged units camped outside your base attacking it. Can the cannons protect it? or is it just so beefy that you can wait for voids to defend it?
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On July 12 2012 16:32 emaster wrote:
I'm still afraid of the enemy having ranged units camped outside your base attacking it. Can the cannons protect it? or is it just so beefy that you can wait for voids to defend it?
As was stated macro nexus should go aginst greedy zerg so he won't have ranged units for some time.
Also if you use wall-off like was shown above your cannons are in range and it's pretty much fine.
I can only suggest one thing - If you are afraid, then don't do it.
If you are willing to take a risk - try it and see how it goes.
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On July 12 2012 16:32 emaster wrote:
I'm still afraid of the enemy having ranged units camped outside your base attacking it. Can the cannons protect it? or is it just so beefy that you can wait for voids to defend it?
The only ranged units Zerg has on T1 (ie, units he could have out in front of your base before voids) are roaches and queens, so let's be honest here, you really just meant roaches. To answer your question, the cannons completely cover the ramp, so he would have to get high ground vision with an overlord. In that situation, he could hit the nexus with roaches, but the surface area is so small from the low ground that he could only do it with 3 or 4 roaches and that's not going to kill a nexus any time soon (it takes 125 roach attacks to even take down the shields), and voids will be out with plenty of time to spare.
I'm not saying a macro nexus is a good idea: sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. My only point is that it is indeed safe, and if you wall off as shown you retain the choice of how to complete your wall until the last building.
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Can somebody tell me please how to kill corruptors? I often end up with the best endgame army I can have but mass corruptors just CRUSH it and then transform into broods. it is so frustrating. :/
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On July 13 2012 04:59 chrissummers wrote:
Can somebody tell me please how to kill corruptors? I often end up with the best endgame army I can have but mass corruptors just CRUSH it and then transform into broods. it is so frustrating. :/
At this stage of the game, you need templars and archons. Land storm on the mass of corruptors and you'll be in good shape.
Here's a game that I just played that demonstrates that:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-267114.jpg)
Before the late game, you shouldn't engage corruptors if your voids aren't under a ton of cannons, or unless you have a recall ready.
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On July 12 2012 14:45 HelioSeven wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand how carrier/void ray works. Void rays reach peak damage output several seconds after the engagement begins, ie when they are charged up. Carriers reach peak damage output immediately, as all the interceptors are being launched with graviton catapult. This is where the inherent synergy comes from: carriers do massive amounts of damage in the first 1.5 seconds of the fight, and shortly thereafter the void rays get charged. There is no favorable time of engagement for a corruptor ball. You can't just run in, snipe some void rays, and then leave before they get charged, you'll lose way too many corruptors to the initial volley of the carriers. If you try to snipe the carriers, they can abuse their superior range to continue engaging as they retreat, giving the void rays plenty of time to charge up.
The only time that dps/supply could possibly matter is in a maxed out army scenario, when you're going to have storm and archon support anyway. In mid-game numbers, corruptors alone should never be able to beat a good Skytoss composition, there simply isn't a way for them to be cost efficient without infestor, queen, or spore crawler support.
So this is what I'm getting out of this post:
1. Carriers are the air unit I actually want, since they're the ones with the range to punish Corruptor kiting.
2. Archons and High Templars are the real counter to Corruptors, not Void Rays.
I am still not convinced at all that I want Void Rays as part of my eventual army; just while I'm on 2-3 bases and I don't yet have the infrastructure to build Carriers. I'm waiting for a better explaination.
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United States8476 Posts
On July 10 2012 10:32 Fogetaboudit wrote:Just watched the game, thanks for the tip  http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/324263928Skip ahead like 40 minutes His earlygame gas allocation is much different than mine and it's something I would like to study. Also, he doesn't go Void rays but just goes storm/blink stalkers to deal with corruptors. It's definitely more micro intensive. cool game
I saw that game and it was less an air-toss game as described in this thread, and more of a tweak on the standard macro PvZ that abuses the metagame on Entombed Valley. Most Zergs will attempt to tech to fast broodlords on that map because of how hard it is to pressure with tier 2 units. Squirtle expected this, and went straight for the late late game unit composition of mothership/carrier/templar/archon, which is the best unit composition against infestor/broodlord. Again, more just Squirtle skipping a few steps in response to the metagame on Entombed than intentionally trying to go sky toss.
PS, for people who don't know, standard pvz generally goes along the lines of:
Gateway units->maybe immortals->colossi or templar->mothership->get templar/archons if you don't already have them->carriers
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Hmm not sure the viability of this strat at higher levels ... but as a silver leaguer .. been struggling PvZ against fellow silvers with normal builds, so I tried this in custom and got a gold zerg.
I gotta say it's not a bad build at all. Quite noob friendly considering my opponent had higher APM and did try all the recommended counters to the build.
In my opinion the zerg should attack natural if mothership is at 3rd and the micromanagement of infestors is also key. Another key point is to upgrade your zerg units such as corruptors or hydras. Even if hard to combat the upgraded voids or carriers ... it's better than not doing so.
Here's the replay.
http://drop.sc/221049
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On July 13 2012 08:28 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 14:45 HelioSeven wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand how carrier/void ray works. Void rays reach peak damage output several seconds after the engagement begins, ie when they are charged up. Carriers reach peak damage output immediately, as all the interceptors are being launched with graviton catapult. This is where the inherent synergy comes from: carriers do massive amounts of damage in the first 1.5 seconds of the fight, and shortly thereafter the void rays get charged. There is no favorable time of engagement for a corruptor ball. You can't just run in, snipe some void rays, and then leave before they get charged, you'll lose way too many corruptors to the initial volley of the carriers. If you try to snipe the carriers, they can abuse their superior range to continue engaging as they retreat, giving the void rays plenty of time to charge up.
The only time that dps/supply could possibly matter is in a maxed out army scenario, when you're going to have storm and archon support anyway. In mid-game numbers, corruptors alone should never be able to beat a good Skytoss composition, there simply isn't a way for them to be cost efficient without infestor, queen, or spore crawler support. So this is what I'm getting out of this post: 1. Carriers are the air unit I actually want, since they're the ones with the range to punish Corruptor kiting. 2. Archons and High Templars are the real counter to Corruptors, not Void Rays. I am still not convinced at all that I want Void Rays as part of my eventual army; just while I'm on 2-3 bases and I don't yet have the infrastructure to build Carriers. I'm waiting for a better explaination.
No, I absolutely agree that in late-game army you want to replace all your voids with HT/archon, definitely, but as you transition to templar tech in the midgame you can continue to rely on void rays to good effect while you build your carrier numbers.
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On July 13 2012 21:59 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 08:28 ineversmile wrote:On July 12 2012 14:45 HelioSeven wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand how carrier/void ray works. Void rays reach peak damage output several seconds after the engagement begins, ie when they are charged up. Carriers reach peak damage output immediately, as all the interceptors are being launched with graviton catapult. This is where the inherent synergy comes from: carriers do massive amounts of damage in the first 1.5 seconds of the fight, and shortly thereafter the void rays get charged. There is no favorable time of engagement for a corruptor ball. You can't just run in, snipe some void rays, and then leave before they get charged, you'll lose way too many corruptors to the initial volley of the carriers. If you try to snipe the carriers, they can abuse their superior range to continue engaging as they retreat, giving the void rays plenty of time to charge up.
The only time that dps/supply could possibly matter is in a maxed out army scenario, when you're going to have storm and archon support anyway. In mid-game numbers, corruptors alone should never be able to beat a good Skytoss composition, there simply isn't a way for them to be cost efficient without infestor, queen, or spore crawler support. So this is what I'm getting out of this post: 1. Carriers are the air unit I actually want, since they're the ones with the range to punish Corruptor kiting. 2. Archons and High Templars are the real counter to Corruptors, not Void Rays. I am still not convinced at all that I want Void Rays as part of my eventual army; just while I'm on 2-3 bases and I don't yet have the infrastructure to build Carriers. I'm waiting for a better explaination. No, I absolutely agree that in late-game army you want to replace all your voids with HT/archon, definitely, but as you transition to templar tech in the midgame you can continue to rely on void rays to good effect while you build your carrier numbers.
If you are facing mass corrupter are carriers really favourable to voids, HT/archon support or otherwise?
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On July 13 2012 23:13 esaul17 wrote:
If you are facing mass corrupter are carriers really favourable to voids, HT/archon support or otherwise?
Voids are good vs pure corruptors, however the problem changes with the introduction of infestors and fungal. Carriers are much better in this case.
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On July 13 2012 23:13 esaul17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 21:59 HelioSeven wrote:On July 13 2012 08:28 ineversmile wrote:On July 12 2012 14:45 HelioSeven wrote:
I'm not entirely sure you understand how carrier/void ray works. Void rays reach peak damage output several seconds after the engagement begins, ie when they are charged up. Carriers reach peak damage output immediately, as all the interceptors are being launched with graviton catapult. This is where the inherent synergy comes from: carriers do massive amounts of damage in the first 1.5 seconds of the fight, and shortly thereafter the void rays get charged. There is no favorable time of engagement for a corruptor ball. You can't just run in, snipe some void rays, and then leave before they get charged, you'll lose way too many corruptors to the initial volley of the carriers. If you try to snipe the carriers, they can abuse their superior range to continue engaging as they retreat, giving the void rays plenty of time to charge up.
The only time that dps/supply could possibly matter is in a maxed out army scenario, when you're going to have storm and archon support anyway. In mid-game numbers, corruptors alone should never be able to beat a good Skytoss composition, there simply isn't a way for them to be cost efficient without infestor, queen, or spore crawler support. So this is what I'm getting out of this post: 1. Carriers are the air unit I actually want, since they're the ones with the range to punish Corruptor kiting. 2. Archons and High Templars are the real counter to Corruptors, not Void Rays. I am still not convinced at all that I want Void Rays as part of my eventual army; just while I'm on 2-3 bases and I don't yet have the infrastructure to build Carriers. I'm waiting for a better explaination. No, I absolutely agree that in late-game army you want to replace all your voids with HT/archon, definitely, but as you transition to templar tech in the midgame you can continue to rely on void rays to good effect while you build your carrier numbers. If you are facing mass corrupter are carriers really favourable to voids, HT/archon support or otherwise?
On July 13 2012 23:16 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 23:13 esaul17 wrote:
If you are facing mass corrupter are carriers really favourable to voids, HT/archon support or otherwise? Voids are good vs pure corruptors, however the problem changes with the introduction of infestors and fungal. Carriers are much better in this case.
Nyast is correct, but also, it's important to take into account when each unit does it's major dps. In a big maxed out battle most voids are never going to get charged up, thus never do peak damage. Carriers en masse will do massive damage at the beginning of the fight with graviton catapult. Along with the added range and superior health, they just last longer and end up doing more damage.
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Sorry, I need to correct the BS about the carriers here.
Carriers suck. You might have this image in your head of them being high dps or massive damage or something, but that just isn't really the case.
http://drop.sc/221479
I just did some unit tester in there. maxed voids will beat corruptors with between 1/4 and 1/3 of army remaining, even though it costs less gas.
When you make it 10 carriers with the rest into voids, suddenly the corruptors win if you just a-move them in, and only micro to target fire carriers after voids are all dead.
Carriers are behind voids the whole time, auto spawning interceptors (which are free on unit test map) and the corruptors dont target fire or use corrupt at all, but still win. thats because carriers suck. Maxed carriers can't beat anything cost effectively, unless they can't attack back. Interceptors themselves have a hard time beating cost effectively.
Hydra just ends up being bad in the long run, because as you get maxed out armies voids can be on top of each other, take less focus fire, while hydras are stuck behind each other and have bad pathing.
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On July 14 2012 04:18 emaster wrote:Sorry, I need to correct the BS about the carriers here. Carriers suck. You might have this image in your head of them being high dps or massive damage or something, but that just isn't really the case. http://drop.sc/221479I just did some unit tester in there. maxed voids will beat corruptors with between 1/4 and 1/3 of army remaining, even though it costs less gas. When you make it 10 carriers with the rest into voids, suddenly the corruptors win if you just a-move them in, and only micro to target fire carriers after voids are all dead.
Pure carriers suck vs pure corruptors. But add a couple templars/archons and suddenly you've got a very cost effective army.
Pure voids suck vs fungal.
What's important is to get a balanced number of units you need against Zerg's compo. Similar to TvP, you need to adjust the amounts of vikings and ghosts to the number of colossus and templars the Protoss has. You can't expect to make only one type of units, here carriers, and roll over everything.
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On July 14 2012 04:18 emaster wrote:Sorry, I need to correct the BS about the carriers here. Carriers suck. You might have this image in your head of them being high dps or massive damage or something, but that just isn't really the case. http://drop.sc/221479I just did some unit tester in there.
El oh el. This is a terrible example of you butting in with your opinion in an attempt to correct everybody. Unit testers are a terrible way to gauge how a game is going to be played out. Everybody that knows anything about using Carriers knows that you need competent support to go along with them, and that's usually Mothership, Storm, Archons or Stalkers. Nobody makes only Carriers and expects to win against Corrupters when Corrupters are obviously designed to counter massive units. Nobody here was even claiming that.
Next time, at least bring some real-game knowledge to the table if you're going to butt in and try to correct everyone.
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Spores, cannons, and turrets all are at least double cost efficient vs interceptors. Marines and hydra are better vs carriers because they are cost effective vs interceptors, and they dont have any stacking issues.... the interceptors come to them. Vs voids, they have to do more micro to get underneat them, so it takes longer for them to start hitting voids efficiently.
"Nobody makes only Carriers and expects to win against Corrupters" Thats indeed a straw man, I am saying if you add in 10 carriers, with the rest voids, you get owned by corruptors, in a 200 vs 200 fight, without micro. You can't really improve the micro of carrier and voidray very much... since carriers are already behind the voids, and inteceptors are on autospawn, and lots of the corruptors go for ints.
Carriers were effective in broodwar, because everything had less range, and corrupts, vikings, and voidrays didn't exist.
Next time, you want to say i am just butting in with my opinion, please dont use a straw man and please offer some real evidence to counter mine.
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If you don't think carriers work, go post in some other thread. Nobody cares about how they operate in no-micro situations because those are unrealistic examples of engagements.
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EPT
