EPTThat being said, I have difficulties taking my 4th base (Antiga Shipyard for example) and vs infestors in general.
Anyone got tips on how to take a 4th safely on stupid maps like Condemned, Antiga etc. Or do I just turtle up to 200/200 on 3base?
[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
That being said, I have difficulties taking my 4th base (Antiga Shipyard for example) and vs infestors in general. Anyone got tips on how to take a 4th safely on stupid maps like Condemned, Antiga etc. Or do I just turtle up to 200/200 on 3base? | ||
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-MoOsE-
United States236 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 08 2012 02:09 Daimai wrote: High master protoss here, having decent success with this build, its not an automatic win button but definitely viable. That being said, I have difficulties taking my 4th base (Antiga Shipyard for example) and vs infestors in general. Anyone got tips on how to take a 4th safely on stupid maps like Condemned, Antiga etc. Or do I just turtle up to 200/200 on 3base? Cannons. Cannons everywhere. But seriously, put down a lot of cannons. Generally, I go for the 4th wherever is closest by air to my other bases, to aid in defense with the fast mothership. On Antiga, that either means the 3rd that's close to your main or the main that's close to your 3rd, as I try to avoid the center bases in PvZ (way too open, run-bys for days). Condemned doesn't seem to matter too much, as the map is just absolutely huge. You can sit on 3 bases for a pretty long time, though, especially if you get the 3rd super quick. Make sure to be very current with your scouting info throughout the game, and just see all his anti-air transitions coming. Which brings me to the topic of infestors. With Skytoss, I usually get forge upgrades in the order attack 1, shields 1, then shields 2, so I usually get my twilight pretty late, relatively speaking. That said, if you see an infestation pit you need to tech to HTs immediately for feedbacks (getting storm is good too, but can be done a bit later). In my experience, Zerg will usually make the move to add infestors to their first anti-air choice (corruptors or hydras) about the same time as you want to be setting up your 4th. Wall off with additional gateways, cannon up, and you should be gas heavy enough to warp in a ton of HTs as soon as the archives finishes. Feedback is also a great way of sniping overseers, making an offensive mothership very powerful as well. | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
This gives zerg a chance to actually engage you (with corruptor/queen/infestor) out of range of cannons, or he can counterattack you (normally I either drop lings in the main base or clear out the cannons at your 3rd with mass infested terran). What maps do you think you can take a 4th base on? because I have a hard time imagining it happening on any map, except maybe shak where you can expand behind the rocks. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-266750.jpg) This game all comes down to a major problem from my side: I'm never able to reach a critical mass, and I'm not trading cost efficiently ( keep the resources lost tab opened.. it's sad ). Zerg keeps sending waves and waves of stuff at me, and I barely hold in most battles, but in the end there's just too much for me to handle. Of course I understand that the reason I cannot handle the final battle is that I'm getting resource starved and I'm never able to reach a critical mass. The question is why do I keep trading so inefficiently in all the mid game ( say, after 18', where the first major battle occurs ). At 17' when he attacks my fourth, I have 9 voidrays and 3 carriers. That actually doesn't sound a lot, but I can't really see where my macro slipped that much. I only lost 2 voidrays to harass attempts, so I don't think that's the cause..? Am I trying to upgrade or tech too quickly ? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
The question is why do I keep trading so inefficiently in all the mid game ( say, after 18', where the first major battle occurs ). The main reason is that corruptors with double upgrades trade very well against protoss units. If you want to come out ahead I'm pretty sure you have to always stay in range of your cannons. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:33 Oboeman wrote: Cannons shouldn't finish because zerg will have zerglings actively denying expansions. So you have to bring your air units to camp the cannons while they complete. It seems to me this relies too much on a zerg not looking and letting you build a ton of cannons undefended. This gives zerg a chance to actually engage you (with corruptor/queen/infestor) out of range of cannons, or he can counterattack you (normally I either drop lings in the main base or clear out the cannons at your 3rd with mass infested terran). What maps do you think you can take a 4th base on? because I have a hard time imagining it happening on any map, except maybe shak where you can expand behind the rocks. It's not a question of the cannons getting down, it's a question of the pylon getting down. With maybe a single carrier and a warp in round of 6-8 zealots you should be able to buy plenty of time for cannons to get down. Even if you have to cancel a couple, shouldn't matter. Once the first couple are up, you can flesh out the rest of the wall safely. Obviously, it is harder on some maps than other (Condemned Ridge comes to mind), and not all 4ths are created equal, but I generally don't have a problem with it. That said, a 3 base timing attack right as 3/3 finishes for your carriers can be a brutally powerful timing, so even if you can delay the 4th forever, don't consider the game won quite then. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:33 Oboeman wrote: Cannons shouldn't finish because zerg will have zerglings actively denying expansions. So you have to bring your air units to camp the cannons while they complete. It seems to me this relies too much on a zerg not looking and letting you build a ton of cannons undefended. This gives zerg a chance to actually engage you (with corruptor/queen/infestor) out of range of cannons, or he can counterattack you (normally I either drop lings in the main base or clear out the cannons at your 3rd with mass infested terran). What maps do you think you can take a 4th base on? because I have a hard time imagining it happening on any map, except maybe shak where you can expand behind the rocks. Shakuras as you said, Entombed Valley, Daybreak, Cloud Kingdom. | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
In the game I played I went double stargate because I wanted to apply a litte preassure  I works either way. | ||
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Feos
Germany71 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284522¤tpage=4#74 | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 08 2012 11:04 Feos wrote: i didnt read the whole discussion about the macro nexus but some time ago i made some tests that might be interesting for some of you: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284522¤tpage=4#74 Didn't go through all of it line by line, but the math looks pretty good, and confirms what I already suspected. The macro nexus pays off for itself in minerals in 3 or 4 minutes, and you hit saturation significantly faster. With the fast mothership fast third style Skytoss opener, it gives you much better initial saturation just as the third finishes and gives you a whole extra nexus with which to build the mothership and not worry about cutting into your probe production. Add to all of that the chrono boost, imo the most op thing in the game, and it pays off deep into the late game with how many chronos you can lay on upgrades and stargate production. I think that general consensus is that if you are feeling safe enough to do it, it definitely doesn't hurt to throw down a macro nexus in your wall off when going for the fast mothership. As long as you are defensively tech turtling, you might as well aggressively macro your econ as well, right? | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 08 2012 03:37 Nyast wrote: I need some help to handle mass infestors in the late late game. Here's an example: This game all comes down to a major problem from my side: I'm never able to reach a critical mass, and I'm not trading cost efficiently ( keep the resources lost tab opened.. it's sad ). Zerg keeps sending waves and waves of stuff at me, and I barely hold in most battles, but in the end there's just too much for me to handle. Of course I understand that the reason I cannot handle the final battle is that I'm getting resource starved and I'm never able to reach a critical mass. The question is why do I keep trading so inefficiently in all the mid game ( say, after 18', where the first major battle occurs ). At 17' when he attacks my fourth, I have 9 voidrays and 3 carriers. That actually doesn't sound a lot, but I can't really see where my macro slipped that much. I only lost 2 voidrays to harass attempts, so I don't think that's the cause..? Am I trying to upgrade or tech too quickly ? Okay, so I finally got around to looking at this replay. I'm only 14' in and I can already tell you why you lost this game, and that's no scouting. With the first phoenix, you don't even fly over his main base to see what tech he chose (you don't even see the spire till like 10 minutes after it's done), and then try to make a hasty defense when there isn't even an attack coming. You throw up a bunch of cannons at your third as he is taking his 4th and 5th bases (the exact opposite of what you want to be doing), and you blindly make a lot of void rays early on despite the fact that his first anti-air choice was hydras, which carriers work much better against. You spend tons of minerals all game long on cannons and gateways that ultimately never really end up getting used all that much. The void ray snipe of the greater spire and subsequent mass recall was quite nice, but way too late, and ultimately, he never really built all that many corruptors (which is what all those void rays really would have been good against) until after he rebuilt his spire much later in the game. He makes a big move into infestors that you never scout, and that causes your HTs to be really late, leaving you with no feedbacks when he comes to sack the 4th. When that happens, he actually trades quite inefficiently (and you trade rather efficiently, aside from losing the mothership), but that doesn't really matter since all he was trying to do was snipe the 4th, which he did, leaving him 2 bases ahead (and when you are roughly equal on tech, that's pretty much a death sentance unless you can make a doom push right then, which you can't). He remaxes on a ton of corruptors, with the greater spire already done, and you are just left way behind. I think the income tab tells a lot more about this game than the units lost tab. Every engagement that I can see you trade more cost efficiently than him, but he just has twice the income with which to replace his army every time. | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On July 07 2012 20:04 How2getMaster wrote: So thanks to this build I have like a 90% win Rate in PvZ. I only loose when I takes fights against pure Hydra in early midgame and he snipes my mamaship because then I can´t safely harras. Anything else is beatable Replay against Master Zerg EU: http://drop.sc/216647 Greetings. I know you didn't ask for comments/criticism/advice, but I think you probably could have survived that final push, and wonder if you've considered the following. I think you made two mistakes. First, you didn't make any carriers after seeing he was going hydra. Unlike voids, carriers come with +2 base armor, and their interceptors force the zerg to focus fire. If he ever resorts to a-clicking, your interceptors will take the heat, and your voids will do free damage. If he focus fires, at best he's overkilling, or causing hydras on the fringe of his hydra-ball to run around aimlessly trying to get in range. At worst, his units are running forward while you're kiting him back and roasting him with the rest of your fleet. Second, you engaged over open ground, away from your cannons. (Imo, versus midgame hydra pushes, you need lots of cannons and to attack close to them, keeping your mothership safe overtop the cannons+nexus, possibly sniping overseers as you can. The extra DPS and hitpoints will really help, and microing weak voids/carriers back over the cannons can help you preserve a lot of your army.) I say, when he gets tons of hydra, don't be afraid to drop extra cannons (e.g., 12 cannons at your fourth); he loses mobility and late-game strength with that army (so he's going to have to sac some before remaxing on more supply-efficient corruptors, making those cannons likely to pay off), and you'll be able to harrass his bases easier in future, so taking your 5th and 6th bases as quickly as him doesn't seem as important. Another minor note: personally, I like to go for a faster +3 attack (before +1 armor) to go with some carriers, and I think you could have saved your mothership in the first engagement. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
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Shikada
Serbia976 Posts
On July 07 2012 20:04 How2getMaster wrote: So thanks to this build I have like a 90% win Rate in PvZ. I only loose when I takes fights against pure Hydra in early midgame and he snipes my mamaship because then I can´t safely harras. Anything else is beatable Replay against Master Zerg EU: http://drop.sc/216647 Greetings. I hope you'll allow a lowly platinum player (that goes against diamond zergs almost all the time) to give you some criticism I feel that delaying the mothership until you get 4 void rays out is better, because your attack comes before his hydras, so you could have potentially done some pretty decent damage in that game. Second, losing that mothership the first time was a very big blow, and it shouldn't have happened. You were in a perfect position to deal with that roach hydra attack, you just need to keep your MS in the back and over/behind buildings and there's no way it will get sniped. I always repel these sort of attacks with ease. The biggest advice... you should have started making carriers. When you see he is going almost pure hydras, ie. no infestors or even worse corruptors, carriers will win you your battles. Until you have at least 4 of them I don't feel it's to your advantage to try and attack a hydra force. Against mostly hydras I turtle anyway, there is no way he can break a base that's littered with cannons, has a MS over it and your entire fleet. Just no way. If he tries two pronged aggression keep your fleet to one side and MS on another over your nexus, keep it alive, deal with one threat, recall, deal with the other. Not many problems there. Stay vigilant over your upgrades and extra production. You could have done upgrades better, and as soon as you transfer workers on your third is a timing to throw down not 2, but 3 more stargates. I mean you can go to 4 if you want to only go mass VR, but if you're building carriers you can support 5 because of the slow build time. On a minor note, you will still have a lot of extra minerals if you get to 4 bases, even with 5 stargates. Throwing down extra gates for zealots and HTs later is a good idea I find. When I see mass hydra I constantly build zealots out of the one gateway you have, so when that first attack hits you have like 6 or 8 of them. Better for hydras to hit them than the VRs  Hope you or anybody else finds something useful here. | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
As you can see I am just Diamond and I have to learn alot! So thanks for your advice. You are right in every point and I am going to work on these. Greetings. | ||
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OskO
Argentina369 Posts
Edit: It was a fairly good game in Entombed Valley against Coca. | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 10 2012 08:57 OskO wrote: Squirtle is going skytoss @ IPL FIght Club RIGHT NOW. Edit: It was a fairly good game in Entombed Valley against Coca. Damn, woke up pretty late today. Hopefully I can find a VOD or it gets rebroadcasted or something. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/324263928 Skip ahead like 40 minutes His earlygame gas allocation is much different than mine and it's something I would like to study. Also, he doesn't go Void rays but just goes storm/blink stalkers to deal with corruptors. It's definitely more micro intensive. cool game | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 10 2012 10:32 Fogetaboudit wrote: Just watched the game, thanks for the tip http://www.twitch.tv/ignproleague/b/324263928 Skip ahead like 40 minutes His earlygame gas allocation is much different than mine and it's something I would like to study. Also, he doesn't go Void rays but just goes storm/blink stalkers to deal with corruptors. It's definitely more micro intensive. cool game Ah! Thanks for the link. Yeah, the storm timing is about the same as with my build, but the timing with which he gets blink is really early. I like the reliance on stalkers instead of void rays to counter the corruptors, though the gas allocation shows with the mothership being started a good minute later than I would. Kind of disappointing that Coca lost all his BLs like that, which pretty much ended the game right there, but still, incredibly well executed by Squirtle. | ||
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