|
On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third?
Yeah, I was about to ask the same question. If you're planting a second stargate before fleet beacon, that pretty much negates the whole fast mothership fast 3rd base play altogether. With double SG that early you are pretty much forced to pressure with it, and that kind of pressure is okay at best, even with +1 zealot support. Either way, the third is going to be late and the MS is going to be extremely late on 2 bases worth of gas, so... yeah, not advisable, as far as I'm concerned.
Adonminus, I've posted about this before, but as long as you're on 2 base, stay on 1 SG and tech as fast as possible towards that MS, as you don't really have the gas for anything else. After you have the 3rd and it's two gases established, then you want to throw down your second wave of tech (as the third is setting up is a good time to send that phoenix scout in). From there, you want to play reactively. My second wave of tech is usually 3 extra SGs, 2 extra SGs, or an extra SG and a twilight council, depending on the anti-air choices your Zerg opponent makes (corruptors, hydras, or infestors). Depends how quickly you think you need to transition to HTs to deal with the infestor problem, and how many carriers you plan to be making to deal with hydras (remember, more carriers need more SGs, as they have lower income cost and longer build times than other SG units).
|
On maps like Shakuras, I do my 10-gate FE into skytoss. That makes games pretty unimpressive, but damn efficient ( and faster than the standard macro build, which easily goes into the 30' ):
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-266522.jpg)
|
On July 04 2012 06:21 Nyast wrote:On maps like Shakuras, I do my 10-gate FE into skytoss. That makes games pretty unimpressive, but damn efficient ( and faster than the standard macro build, which easily goes into the 30' ):
This is Gate/Forge into Block second into Expand etc. On which maps would you advise to do this? Or what is the criterion to not to do it?
|
On July 04 2012 06:06 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third? Yeah, I was about to ask the same question. If you're planting a second stargate before fleet beacon, that pretty much negates the whole fast mothership fast 3rd base play altogether. With double SG that early you are pretty much forced to pressure with it, and that kind of pressure is okay at best, even with +1 zealot support. Either way, the third is going to be late and the MS is going to be extremely late on 2 bases worth of gas, so... yeah, not advisable, as far as I'm concerned. Adonminus, I've posted about this before, but as long as you're on 2 base, stay on 1 SG and tech as fast as possible towards that MS, as you don't really have the gas for anything else. After you have the 3rd and it's two gases established, then you want to throw down your second wave of tech (as the third is setting up is a good time to send that phoenix scout in). From there, you want to play reactively. My second wave of tech is usually 3 extra SGs, 2 extra SGs, or an extra SG and a twilight council, depending on the anti-air choices your Zerg opponent makes (corruptors, hydras, or infestors). Depends how quickly you think you need to transition to HTs to deal with the infestor problem, and how many carriers you plan to be making to deal with hydras (remember, more carriers need more SGs, as they have lower income cost and longer build times than other SG units).
Ty this was very helpful.
|
On July 04 2012 06:50 Wasihasi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:21 Nyast wrote:On maps like Shakuras, I do my 10-gate FE into skytoss. That makes games pretty unimpressive, but damn efficient ( and faster than the standard macro build, which easily goes into the 30' ): This is Gate/Forge into Block second into Expand etc. On which maps would you advise to do this? Or what is the criterion to not to do it?
I wouldn't do it on any 4-player map.
On smaller maps you can do it, but you shouldn't over-commit if Zerg has scouted you ( with an overlord or drone ). If my build is spotted, I just go for 2 zealots and depending on the timing of the zerglings, either I'll attempt the cannon contain, either I'll drop my nexus asap. Normally Zergs are too busy with your zealots to rush you, so you can delay the defensive cannon after the nexus.
When the contain is successful, skytoss is particularly powerful. The third will be very delayed, his eco will be lagging behind, and the first voidrays will scare him and force spores at a critical moment ( when he's trying to get an eco back up ). And whatever mid-game army he makes, he won't have the eco to reprod it instantly, which makes any push he attempts a bit risky for him.
|
On July 04 2012 17:35 Rimak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:06 HelioSeven wrote:On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third? Yeah, I was about to ask the same question. If you're planting a second stargate before fleet beacon, that pretty much negates the whole fast mothership fast 3rd base play altogether. With double SG that early you are pretty much forced to pressure with it, and that kind of pressure is okay at best, even with +1 zealot support. Either way, the third is going to be late and the MS is going to be extremely late on 2 bases worth of gas, so... yeah, not advisable, as far as I'm concerned. Adonminus, I've posted about this before, but as long as you're on 2 base, stay on 1 SG and tech as fast as possible towards that MS, as you don't really have the gas for anything else. After you have the 3rd and it's two gases established, then you want to throw down your second wave of tech (as the third is setting up is a good time to send that phoenix scout in). From there, you want to play reactively. My second wave of tech is usually 3 extra SGs, 2 extra SGs, or an extra SG and a twilight council, depending on the anti-air choices your Zerg opponent makes (corruptors, hydras, or infestors). Depends how quickly you think you need to transition to HTs to deal with the infestor problem, and how many carriers you plan to be making to deal with hydras (remember, more carriers need more SGs, as they have lower income cost and longer build times than other SG units). Ty this was very helpful.
Yeah basically, with the 5th and 6th gases at the 3rd base, you want to react to/with the following:
- against mostly hydras, 4 stargates producing carriers
- against mostly corruptors, 3 stargates producing 1 carrier/2 VRs at a time
- against mostly infestor, 2 stargates producing carriers/VRs as necessary w/ 8 gates HTs
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough...
|
On April 30 2012 19:37 Immutant wrote:
If you truely want to be invincible, add HTs late game into the mix. They cost only 2 supply? And 1 storm would wipe out the cluster of corrupters/hydras. They can also feedback infestors. + their movement speed is on par with the mothership so you get 2 OP spellcasters in an area.
I see this a lot in 3v3, 4v4 team games.
High Templar have a high skill cap to them and when used properly can be absolutely devastating in the mid to late game.
But still when securing a third I still don't think that is a needed precaution to add High Templar to the field. But moving up to the tech for later is defiantly a good idea.
|
On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third?
Yes, I get my 3rd after I send like 4 void rays to my opponent's 3rd.
On July 04 2012 19:18 HelioSeven wrote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough...
I think in a phoenix vs phoenix situation in PvP, you can get a fleet beacon for +2 range, and those +2 range phoenixes easily beat normal phoenixes. Funny, but 4 phoenixes can beat 12 phoenixes in pvp using that upgrade.
After that you can use fleetbeacon to transition to skytoss. I would also want to note that carriers are extremly good at defending chargelot archon busts in pvp due to their superior range. (though you need a wall to put them behind so archons can't damage them).
On July 04 2012 06:06 HelioSeven wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third? Yeah, I was about to ask the same question. If you're planting a second stargate before fleet beacon, that pretty much negates the whole fast mothership fast 3rd base play altogether. With double SG that early you are pretty much forced to pressure with it, and that kind of pressure is okay at best, even with +1 zealot support. Either way, the third is going to be late and the MS is going to be extremely late on 2 bases worth of gas, so... yeah, not advisable, as far as I'm concerned. Adonminus, I've posted about this before, but as long as you're on 2 base, stay on 1 SG and tech as fast as possible towards that MS, as you don't really have the gas for anything else. After you have the 3rd and it's two gases established, then you want to throw down your second wave of tech (as the third is setting up is a good time to send that phoenix scout in). From there, you want to play reactively. My second wave of tech is usually 3 extra SGs, 2 extra SGs, or an extra SG and a twilight council, depending on the anti-air choices your Zerg opponent makes (corruptors, hydras, or infestors). Depends how quickly you think you need to transition to HTs to deal with the infestor problem, and how many carriers you plan to be making to deal with hydras (remember, more carriers need more SGs, as they have lower income cost and longer build times than other SG units).
I'm not sure. If you get 2 additional assimilators really early like at the same time you start your stargate, you get an insane boost of gas. Plus if you let the zerg drone up safely, he can prepare a very strong mid game composition against skytoss, and just beating it with overwhelming number rather than cost efficiency, like maxing out on hydra queen corruptor as an example.
|
On July 04 2012 06:21 Nyast wrote:On maps like Shakuras, I do my 10-gate FE into skytoss. That makes games pretty unimpressive, but damn efficient ( and faster than the standard macro build, which easily goes into the 30' ):
Awesome, I wad waiting to see this from you 
I've been experimenting with a macro 1 gate Fe with faster third as well. The contain seems brutal though.
|
On July 04 2012 19:18 HelioSeven wrote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough...
Well if you think about it - colossi don't shoot UP.
Ht's may be a pain but a fast MS can give you the advantage.
Interesting.
|
does anyone have a more recent replay using this style against a z who knows what they are doing?
|
Moose, I don't think there's really a solid strategy out there for zerg to beat it, correct me if I'm wrong.
|
What's the best way for zerg to deal with this in late game?
I imagine:
- making tons of expo's across the map
- tons of spores/spines
- mass infestors/corruptor
I haven't encountered this strategy yet but I'd like to know how to have a chance if it goes late game..
I've read that muta's are initially good but get progressively worse as the game goes on.
|
On July 06 2012 06:19 Mavvie wrote:
Moose, I don't think there's really a solid strategy out there for zerg to beat it, correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm just trying to find a high level play in which the protoss opens up with this build to see how it works out on other high level z
|
On July 04 2012 23:20 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third? Yes, I get my 3rd after I send like 4 void rays to my opponent's 3rd.
Wait, how do you have a mothership at that point? Do you even? Do you just get it after the third or something?
In my experience, it's really hard to be aggressive against the fast three base Zerg with the stargate first play, on most maps. Personally I find the fast mothership quick 3rd base to be more effective. You should be able to at least keep up in probes with chrono boost, and can easily mineral dump into cannons as you get the important tech out.
Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 19:18 HelioSeven wrote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough... I think in a phoenix vs phoenix situation in PvP, you can get a fleet beacon for +2 range, and those +2 range phoenixes easily beat normal phoenixes. Funny, but 4 phoenixes can beat 12 phoenixes in pvp using that upgrade. After that you can use fleetbeacon to transition to skytoss. I would also want to note that carriers are extremly good at defending chargelot archon busts in pvp due to their superior range. (though you need a wall to put them behind so archons can't damage them).
No, I mean I played against a 3 gate expand opener into mass blink stalker/chargelot w/ a couple of colossi to support and beat that with a phoenix opener into immortal/carrier build. Handily. Gotta try this out some more, but I think I finally understand the counter wheel of PvP.
Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 06:06 HelioSeven wrote:On July 03 2012 23:11 -MoOsE- wrote:On July 03 2012 20:29 Adonminus wrote:
Through all my experience with this build, you need to do damage with your double stargate void rays so that he won't be able to do heavy mid game pressures like hydra queen corruptor for example.
Then there's also the problem between fast hts or fast carriers, fast hts can be good vs corruptors and queens while carriers are better against hydralisks and decent against infestors too. I thought that the build order for this build was like a 8 min third off of your 1st vray? Drop down an extra stargate then and cannon up the third and nat. Are you doing double stargate 2 base pressure into third? Yeah, I was about to ask the same question. If you're planting a second stargate before fleet beacon, that pretty much negates the whole fast mothership fast 3rd base play altogether. With double SG that early you are pretty much forced to pressure with it, and that kind of pressure is okay at best, even with +1 zealot support. Either way, the third is going to be late and the MS is going to be extremely late on 2 bases worth of gas, so... yeah, not advisable, as far as I'm concerned. Adonminus, I've posted about this before, but as long as you're on 2 base, stay on 1 SG and tech as fast as possible towards that MS, as you don't really have the gas for anything else. After you have the 3rd and it's two gases established, then you want to throw down your second wave of tech (as the third is setting up is a good time to send that phoenix scout in). From there, you want to play reactively. My second wave of tech is usually 3 extra SGs, 2 extra SGs, or an extra SG and a twilight council, depending on the anti-air choices your Zerg opponent makes (corruptors, hydras, or infestors). Depends how quickly you think you need to transition to HTs to deal with the infestor problem, and how many carriers you plan to be making to deal with hydras (remember, more carriers need more SGs, as they have lower income cost and longer build times than other SG units). I'm not sure. If you get 2 additional assimilators really early like at the same time you start your stargate, you get an insane boost of gas. Plus if you let the zerg drone up safely, he can prepare a very strong mid game composition against skytoss, and just beating it with overwhelming number rather than cost efficiency, like maxing out on hydra queen corruptor as an example.
I get my 3rd assimilator earlier than that. After setting the FFE up I usually go 2 gas > cyber > gas > stargate > gas. The whole purpose of the fast third (and, in a similar vein, the macro nexus), is to let him drone up and simply keep up (chrono boost is an incredible thing). After you've spent all the gas on the SG, FB, MS, and gotten all your upgrades starting, you should be setting up your third, getting it defended with cannons, and building up a bank of gas for the second wave of tech as previously mentioned. Scout well, and you should have no problems defending.
If you are dead-set on pressuring instead, you can still do it off of just one stargate, you don't need to take all 4 gasses and flood double stargate. You can do a +1 zealot w/ void ray pressure timing that exploits a Zerg who delays lair tech a little too long, and you can do it with just a couple of voids. If you chrono out +1 ground weapons and warp tech, have a nice early proxy pylon set up, and have decent void ray micro at all you should be able to do a ton of damage (void rays kill roaches then buildings, zealots kill everything else).
|
On July 04 2012 19:18 HelioSeven wrote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough...
I think you basically should be going into stargate transitions or heavy drop play/harassment after the 2base stalemate situation where Colossus concaves force defender's advantage and it's pretty easy for both players to take and hold a third while they max. The bigger question becomes how you mix that composition--a lot of Immortals and Phoenixes are good if you're up against a lot of Stalkers, but if it's mass Chargelot with Archons I think going into Carriers faster is better. A few Phoenixes are always good in that match-up, though, since they wreck drops and give you harassment potential.
Actually, where I've been happiest using Stargate tech lately is against Terran. I'm doing Robo-->fast Colossus into 2base Phoenix Colossus as I take a third. If you get the Stargate down about when the Starport is down, Phoenixes help clean up drops to the point where you're actually killing the Medivacs, and in major engagements they're good for fighting Vikings and cleaning up stimmed retreating units. This is all probably better for another thread, but I figured I'd bring up that I'm on a double-digit win streak on ladder against Terrans because of Phoenix/Colossus, mostly due to the stuff I've been trying with Skytoss vs Zerg (as inspired by this thread to a great extent).
|
On July 06 2012 17:33 ineversmile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 19:18 HelioSeven wrote:
On a somewhat unrelated note, I just crushed in a PvP with a phoenix opener into carrier/immortal build. Got up to 5 stargates and 3 robos on 5 bases. Methinks Skytoss is actually somewhat viable in PvP, oddly enough... I think you basically should be going into stargate transitions or heavy drop play/harassment after the 2base stalemate situation where Colossus concaves force defender's advantage and it's pretty easy for both players to take and hold a third while they max. The bigger question becomes how you mix that composition--a lot of Immortals and Phoenixes are good if you're up against a lot of Stalkers, but if it's mass Chargelot with Archons I think going into Carriers faster is better. A few Phoenixes are always good in that match-up, though, since they wreck drops and give you harassment potential. Actually, where I've been happiest using Stargate tech lately is against Terran. I'm doing Robo-->fast Colossus into 2base Phoenix Colossus as I take a third. If you get the Stargate down about when the Starport is down, Phoenixes help clean up drops to the point where you're actually killing the Medivacs, and in major engagements they're good for fighting Vikings and cleaning up stimmed retreating units. This is all probably better for another thread, but I figured I'd bring up that I'm on a double-digit win streak on ladder against Terrans because of Phoenix/Colossus, mostly due to the stuff I've been trying with Skytoss vs Zerg (as inspired by this thread to a great extent).
You know I've been screwing around with that too. I tried void rays guarding the edges of your base, and they're somewhat better at swatting drops, but much worse when the straight up engagement happens. But I agree, with a fleet beacon for phoenix range and a mothership, colossi suddenly become way more powerful.
Regarding the PvP immortal/carrier situation, yeah, pretty much. You scale immortals against blink stalkers, and carriers against everything else. I've tried to throw a few colossi in, especially if you already have the robo bay for prism speed or something like that, but generally it's just too much gas out of your income. Maybe throwing a few in once your gas banks up a bit, I don't know. But 3 base/3 stargate carrier production with 2 robos supporting immortals seems to destroy 3 base double robo colossus.
|
One thing to remember when playing with a momma ship is that it's not actually that slow, it just has a really slow acceleration. If you put it on patrol when idle it'll actually be quite fast, relatively speaking.
|
So thanks to this build I have like a 90% win Rate in PvZ. I only loose when I takes fights against pure Hydra in early midgame and he snipes my mamaship because then I can´t safely harras. Anything else is beatable
Replay against Master Zerg EU: http://drop.sc/216647
Greetings.
|
On July 07 2012 20:04 How2getMaster wrote:So thanks to this build I have like a 90% win Rate in PvZ. I only loose when I takes fights against pure Hydra in early midgame and he snipes my mamaship because then I can´t safely harras. Anything else is beatable Replay against Master Zerg EU: http://drop.sc/216647 Greetings.
do you find the double stargate better than the super quick third?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
