EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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saladToss
United States75 Posts
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On June 30 2012 12:07 saladToss wrote: I use this build because I'd rather die in any way other than infestor / broodlord I like this. My version: When I lose to zerg doing this build, it's because he is really good, not because he copied stephano's build orders. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On June 30 2012 08:27 Aelfric wrote: Won't happen, i always have at least 1 phoenix early with this build for scouting any kind of early spire. If i see a spire only and not a hydra den or even roaches i will just dump on phoenixes with +1/2 upgrade with +2 range and believe me, mutas are not the best thing against that. Unfortunately it's not that simple. Zerg will make corruptors instead and suddenly your phoenixes are useless, you'll have no way to harass and prevent Zerg from mass expanding, and your voids/carriers will be so delayed that a timing push with ground units ( let's say mass zerglings, or mass roaches ) will be very hard to defend  | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On June 30 2012 20:55 Nyast wrote: Unfortunately it's not that simple. Zerg will make corruptors instead and suddenly your phoenixes are useless, you'll have no way to harass and prevent Zerg from mass expanding, and your voids/carriers will be so delayed that a timing push with ground units ( let's say mass zerglings, or mass roaches ) will be very hard to defend I feel like we've talked about the spire first vs stargate first issue before, and I really have yet to have a problem in that department. Phoenixes should still be able to harass against corruptors, as they are fairly significantly faster and equal range with APC. It takes about a second and a half for 4-5 phoenixes to kill a queen, or an overlord (which is all you're trying to go after with the phoenixes anyway), and corruptors won't be able to stop that without fungal or transfuse (on the targeted queen) or something. For that matter, phoenixes make a much bigger dent in your income than your production, since they only take like 35 seconds to build. It's just good insurance against spire first, as phoenixes will nullify the muta threat, maybe get some harass done depending on how spread out the map is, and they're not terrible in a straight up fight (lifts, soaking damage, etc). I'm pretty sure we're all more or less on the same page about phoenix>muta, muta>void ray, void ray>corruptor, corruptor>phoenix, but, at least from my personal experience and of course depending on composition, phoenix/void ray will generally beat muta/corruptor, just because of how the range and damage tables work out. Mutas, with shortest range by far, will fly in close and generally be the first to die, and then phoenixes will absorb enough damage to let the void rays charge up, and that's usually that. Also, on a somewhat related note, I know that in ZvZ meta-game people have discovered that +1 armor is better than +1 attack in muta vs muta, as it heavily reduces the bouncing effect of the glaive wurm. Beginning to wonder if the same thing isn't true for phoenix, yeah? +1 air armor (and +1 shields, for that matter) would reduce 3 damage, 1 per bounce. Could really help keep those crucial early game numbers sufficient (though of course, the gas investment becomes higher). Just a thought. I think getting +1 ground weapons is more important early on with the forge, but getting +1 air armor instead of weapons may be quite a good idea. Gonna screw around with it some after White-Ra is done streaming, will post results. | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 02 2012 01:38 Mavvie wrote: To the poster above, I'd recommend +1 shields out of your forge and +1 attack out of your cybercore. With skytoss you won't (really) need ground attack, and shields help ground units, air units, and buildings. +1 phoenixes just destroy mutas, probably before the shields even go down lolol. Yeah, I mean it's just trade-offs. With +1 ground attack you get a huge boost in efficiency out of zealot vs ling (kill in 2 attacks instead of 3), with shields you get armor bonuses to all your units and buildings last forever and a half against ling attacks. Whichever seems more relevant is obviously what should be done in any given game situation, be reactive. Regarding the +1 air weapons vs +1 air armor, that doesn't seem to be the case to me. I don't think killing the mutas faster is all that important, really. Phoenixes do 10 damage per shot, 12 with +1, and mutas have 120 health. So +0 phoenixes kill a muta in 12 shots, +1 phoenixes kill in 10 shots. Contrarily, phoenixes have 120 health and 60 shields, while mutas do a total of 13 damage with bounce shot (9+3+1), 10 against +1 armor. So a +0 armor phoenix will withstand 14 shots from a muta, but with +1 armor it will survive 17 (18 w/ +1 shields). The extra shots you can get off with a phoenix that lives 3-4 shots longer seems a lot more important, to me at least, than the shot or two saved killing a muta with an attack upgrade. The phoenix has lower attack and higher health than the muta, it seems like the armor upgrade would be much more cost efficient (and you can always add on a second cyber core with the gas advantage you will have in hard countering muta play like that). This is all sort of presuming that phoenix micro is rather difficult, even with range, and realistically speaking against a player who is half decent with mutas, you are going to take some shots, particularly in that early stage where you only have a few phoenixes out. | ||
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achristes
Norway653 Posts
User was warned for this post Edit for strat forum guidelines. I haven't really faced skytoss that much, and maybe they are just executing it wrong (Diamond/Masters EU) but they just seem to not have any unit that can kill lings fast enough and I can rampage his base and kill (at least) the main nexus and the tech in the main. This would be even harder for toss if I did roach drops (because zealots warpins wouldn't do anything at all). Skytoss is a really good (insanely good) army comp lategame, but using it to take a fast third seems kind of risky because you don't really have any units that deals splash damage (unless you tech like a madman and have even less units as a result) and thus lings (and to some degree roaches) would be insane if they get past your cannons (drops/nydus). | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
On July 02 2012 07:57 HelioSeven wrote: Yeah, I mean it's just trade-offs. With +1 ground attack you get a huge boost in efficiency out of zealot vs ling (kill in 2 attacks instead of 3), with shields you get armor bonuses to all your units and buildings last forever and a half against ling attacks. Whichever seems more relevant is obviously what should be done in any given game situation, be reactive. Regarding the +1 air weapons vs +1 air armor, that doesn't seem to be the case to me. I don't think killing the mutas faster is all that important, really. Phoenixes do 10 damage per shot, 12 with +1, and mutas have 120 health. So +0 phoenixes kill a muta in 12 shots, +1 phoenixes kill in 10 shots. Contrarily, phoenixes have 120 health and 60 shields, while mutas do a total of 13 damage with bounce shot (9+3+1), 10 against +1 armor. So a +0 armor phoenix will withstand 14 shots from a muta, but with +1 armor it will survive 17 (18 w/ +1 shields). The extra shots you can get off with a phoenix that lives 3-4 shots longer seems a lot more important, to me at least, than the shot or two saved killing a muta with an attack upgrade. The phoenix has lower attack and higher health than the muta, it seems like the armor upgrade would be much more cost efficient (and you can always add on a second cyber core with the gas advantage you will have in hard countering muta play like that). This is all sort of presuming that phoenix micro is rather difficult, even with range, and realistically speaking against a player who is half decent with mutas, you are going to take some shots, particularly in that early stage where you only have a few phoenixes out. I agree that the biggest problem with +1 shields is that you aren't getting +1 weapons  but if you're going skytoss and don't scout a spling all in, might as well get shields. Uh, I disagree about +1 air armor still. I like your point, but youre forgetting that despite phoenixes doing less damage per attack, they attack way faster. I'll break down the math:Mutalisk DPS: 13 / 1.5246 = 8.53 DPS. Vs +1 armor: 10/1.5246 = 6.56 DPS DPS reduction: 8.53-6.56=1.97 DPS reduced Phoenix DPS: (5+5) x 2/1.11 = 18 DPS With +1 attack: (6+5) x 2/1.11 = 20 DPS DPS increase: 20-18= 2 more DPS Ok LOL it actually doesn't make a shit of a difference which one you get, but if you have +1 shields and +1 armor, then it will take 18 shots to kill a Phoenix. Also worth noting is that +1 attack will only actually kill mutas faster sometimes. With health regen, it will take 121 health/20damage = 7 shots to kill. However, 121 health/ 22 damage = 6 shots to kill. In conclusion: +1 attack will make your phoenixes kill the mutas in 6 shots instead of 7. 1/7 increase in awesomeness. +1 armor will make your phoenixes survive 12 shots after their shields go down, instead of 10 shots. 1/6 increase in awesomeness. I have changed my mind and agree with you. 1/6>1/7, but due to the nature of the Phoenix, you don't need to out-DPS the mutas. You have to micro so they don't get enough shots off to do damage to your Phoenix. So, to decide which upgrade to get: Get +1 attack if you're consistent at microing Phoenix without taking many hits -- you'll kill the mutas significantly faster Get +1 armor if you screw up microing Phoenix occasionally, and want to decrease the hull damage taken when you make a mistake. Damn, dat analysis  | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 02 2012 08:46 Mavvie wrote: I agree that the biggest problem with +1 shields is that you aren't getting +1 weapons but if you're going skytoss and don't scout a spling all in, might as well get shields. Uh, I disagree about +1 air armor still. I like your point, but youre forgetting that despite phoenixes doing less damage per attack, they attack way faster. I'll break down the math:Mutalisk DPS: 13 / 1.5246 = 8.53 DPS. Vs +1 armor: 10/1.5246 = 6.56 DPS DPS reduction: 8.53-6.56=1.97 DPS reduced Phoenix DPS: (5+5) x 2/1.11 = 18 DPS With +1 attack: (6+5) x 2/1.11 = 20 DPS DPS increase: 20-18= 2 more DPS Ok LOL it actually doesn't make a shit of a difference which one you get, but if you have +1 shields and +1 armor, then it will take 18 shots to kill a Phoenix. Also worth noting is that +1 attack will only actually kill mutas faster sometimes. With health regen, it will take 121 health/20damage = 7 shots to kill. However, 121 health/ 22 damage = 6 shots to kill. In conclusion: +1 attack will make your phoenixes kill the mutas in 6 shots instead of 7. 1/7 increase in awesomeness. +1 armor will make your phoenixes survive 12 shots after their shields go down, instead of 10 shots. 1/6 increase in awesomeness. I have changed my mind and agree with you. 1/6>1/7, but due to the nature of the Phoenix, you don't need to out-DPS the mutas. You have to micro so they don't get enough shots off to do damage to your Phoenix. So, to decide which upgrade to get: Get +1 attack if you're consistent at microing Phoenix without taking many hits -- you'll kill the mutas significantly faster Get +1 armor if you screw up microing Phoenix occasionally, and want to decrease the hull damage taken when you make a mistake. Damn, dat analysis Haha, well done, I applaud your math. I'm glad someone took the trouble to actually think that one out. The only other thing I would point out is that, somewhat obviously, +1 air weapons is vastly more beneficial to void rays and carriers if you plan on getting those, so one might consider getting +1 air armor instead if you plan on quickly transitioning into a robo or gateway based army shortly after countering the mutas. Otherwise, the earlier +1 attack will probably pay off more in the long run. | ||
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quillian
United States318 Posts
On July 02 2012 10:50 HelioSeven wrote: Haha, well done, I applaud your math. I'm glad someone took the trouble to actually think that one out. The only other thing I would point out is that, somewhat obviously, +1 air weapons is vastly more beneficial to void rays and carriers if you plan on getting those, so one might consider getting +1 air armor instead if you plan on quickly transitioning into a robo or gateway based army shortly after countering the mutas. Otherwise, the earlier +1 attack will probably pay off more in the long run. Yeah, the +1 makes a big difference for VR and a HUGE difference for carriers. One should also note that attack is a larger % dps change vs corruptors, as they have high armor and a low rate of fire. +1 attack takes it from 34 to 25 shots for a phoenix to kill a corruptor. +1 armor increases it from 8 shots after shields to 9 (meh) I think air attack is always the better choice when you are planning to continue building starport units. edit- upon thinking about the math, has anyone encountered a zerg that goes fast armor with mass corruptor? All protoss air has fast attack speed, stacking armor could totally cripple their dps... | ||
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Mavvie
Canada923 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On July 02 2012 11:40 Mavvie wrote: I think it's agreed that you need 2 cores for double upgrades. I feel that you guys are underestimating air armor. Sure, void rays benefit a ton, but so do carriers! As a Zerg, I find nothing scarier than not only the 3-3-3 carriers, but the interceptors themselves! Flying zerglings that do insane DPS and just don't die. Again, with Phoenix vs muta they're both equally beneficial, so you could just opt for +1 attack to make all your units just that much scarier! Protoss air units vs Zerg anti-air is a burst damage vs critical mass situation, so I would choose air attack and shields to 3 before considering armor. You FFE and get 1 core anyway, so why spend an extra 150 to get air armor before the stuff you really need? Armor doens't matter once zerg has: -enough hydras to combat air units -enough roach to flood -enough muta or corruptor Since VRs are the threat in sky toss but are slow units, you often times want to do damage and get out of there rather than stay and fight since they are costly and you really cant afford losing them | ||
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trbot
Canada142 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:25 tehemperorer wrote: Armor doens't matter once zerg has: -enough hydras to combat air units rofl, WHAT? hydras are essentially THE reason you get armor... | ||
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HelioSeven
United States193 Posts
On July 02 2012 13:32 trbot wrote: rofl, WHAT? hydras are essentially THE reason you get armor... Yeah, hydra attack speed is through the roof. Armor upgrades are worth their weight in gold against hydras, as well as infested terrans and queens. Mutas to a lesser degree and corruptors the least. | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
I just want to say, that P shouldn't engage direclty into Z's army early on. So getting +1 attack is much better for hit and run tactic. But by the time zerg will get to you, you can get +2/+1/+1 air | ||
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Rimak
Denmark434 Posts
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
Things I've noticed with the build: You can't afford going double sets of upgrades, and shield upgrades, before 3 base, and your third is delayed with this build. Therefore, I don't advocate double cycore, because by the time you have the gas for it, you're already almost done with +3 attack anyways. 2-3 phoenix after the first 2 voids are invaluable for scouting. Carrier HT archon mothership > all. That is my experience with this build. | ||
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Anomek
Poland152 Posts
My SG units are void -> phoenix (harras 3rd, force spores, usually does no other damage) -> more voids. With phoenix I scout tech and expansions. I don't harras otherwise before recall is ready. I found that there is no worser feeling then have 3-5 void harrasing zerg, when they appear in your base with roach/hydra. First they kill your naked cannons. Then they kill your naked void rays . I have question about carriers. They seems to bee good vs infestor/hydra, but aweful against corruptors. Also they are useless in harrasment (too slow). For sure they need void supports, but i feel that corruptors snipe them too fast, and I would end better with pure void army. But adding like ~4 carriers may be good idea, dunno. And against hydras, voids are good enough with cannon support (because never will all hydras fire at them, while all voids will always participate in battle). Just need good spread against fungals. As for muta problem, chronoboosting phoenixes from 4 stargates + range upgrade is enough. 4 phoenixes kills infinite numbers of mutalisks  If they keep producing mutas, that's very good news! Keep phoenix number at 6-8 and carry on with void production. And because phoenixes shouldn't take too much damage from muta, attack upgrade is preffered, but you have iddle forge for shields And for last note, how do you guys handle hydra drop? It seems to be most powerfull counter to this build. Also what maps do you use/never use it on? | ||
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saladToss
United States75 Posts
never try it on daybreak. vs hydras throw down 3-4 gates and constantly warp in zealots while you get your third up. zealots tank a lot of damage so your air can kill everything | ||
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