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On June 27 2012 21:43 JayIsImbA wrote:
corrupters have the corruption ability which makes attacks deal 20% more damage to enemy units for 30 seconds. that's pretty huge and mass corrupters kill carriers/voids relatively easy if upgraded on the same level.
thats why it all comes down to the archon toilet and storming the corrupters late game
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On June 27 2012 21:43 JayIsImbA wrote:
corrupters have the corruption ability which makes attacks deal 20% more damage to enemy units for 30 seconds. that's pretty huge and mass corrupters kill carriers/voids relatively easy if upgraded on the same level.
its not that good of an ability. ppl say that corruptors are the "best anti air unit in the game" and that is true only if its a low number of air units corruptors are facing. against larget numbers corruptors wont do anything. if toss gets masses 3-3 air like that corruptors wont do anything. u litterally have to target fire everything for a corruptor to kill something when it comes to mass air vs mass air where as toss can just A move.
even mass terran air is hard to deal with when you only have corruptors.
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Maxed out 3-3 air army is just much more resources invested into units than you invest into mass corruptor. And no, nothing beats airtoss on equal upgrades easily, that's just flat out wrong. Add a few archons and storms, and I think no zerg composition can beat it, or at least trade effectively, at all.
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On June 28 2012 01:16 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2012 21:43 JayIsImbA wrote:
corrupters have the corruption ability which makes attacks deal 20% more damage to enemy units for 30 seconds. that's pretty huge and mass corrupters kill carriers/voids relatively easy if upgraded on the same level. its not that good of an ability. ppl say that corruptors are the "best anti air unit in the game" and that is true only if its a low number of air units corruptors are facing. against larget numbers corruptors wont do anything. if toss gets masses 3-3 air like that corruptors wont do anything. u litterally have to target fire everything for a corruptor to kill something when it comes to mass air vs mass air where as toss can just A move. even mass terran air is hard to deal with when you only have corruptors.
I completely disagree. For the supply, corrupter vs Protoss air are incredibly supply efficient and cost efficient, especially vs carriers. Maxed out VRs vs maxed out corrupter might be able to do the job, but the VR max out cost is significantly higher and more time consuming than the corrupter, particularly when considering how larve works for zerg vs stargates for toss.
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Corruptors are a real pain. I keep losing games stupidly because of them. Like, I have a great start, excellent macro, take a decently fast third ( 10' ), get my MS, make 10-15 cannons at my third, then start to move out to harass with a dozen voids or so.. and then suddenly comes 20+ corruptors that instantly snippe my MS. Cannons underneath it basically do no damage, the MS is shot in a second, so if you were looking away during that second, it's pretty much gg. You can remake a MS and it'll get snipped again asap as it's back. Doesn't matter if Zerg loses 10-15 corruptors each time and it's horribly cost innefficient for him, he can easily get on 6 bases and without recall, moving to harass with your air army is just too risky.
I recently tried to incorporate some early agression ( 4 gate + voidray pressure ) to slow down the Zerg, but the problem is that it slows you down a lot too, so I'm thinking of going back and getting into as much air as possible, as fast as possible.
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On June 28 2012 04:03 Nyast wrote:
Corruptors are a real pain. I keep losing games stupidly because of them. Like, I have a great start, excellent macro, take a decently fast third ( 10' ), get my MS, make 10-15 cannons at my third, then start to move out to harass with a dozen voids or so.. and then suddenly comes 20+ corruptors that instantly snippe my MS. Cannons underneath it basically do no damage, the MS is shot in a second, so if you were looking away during that second, it's pretty much gg. You can remake a MS and it'll get snipped again asap as it's back. Doesn't matter if Zerg loses 10-15 corruptors each time and it's horribly cost innefficient for him, he can easily get on 6 bases and without recall, moving to harass with your air army is just too risky.
I recently tried to incorporate some early agression ( 4 gate + voidray pressure ) to slow down the Zerg, but the problem is that it slows you down a lot too, so I'm thinking of going back and getting into as much air as possible, as fast as possible.
void rays can do more for there cost. once voids take out corrptors for example they can still be a threat and atk ground/snipe hatches. corruptors how ever are wasted supply. once all air is gone toss can just make a ground switch and roll.
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honestly instead of macro nexus I have been just planting it at the third behind 1 cannon versus ECO openings from zerg
I'm not convinced they can do anything about it just yet. All they have are slow lings, which are not good vs 1/2 cannons. I constantly sacrifice probes to scout when I take this obnoxious third, and since I have instant access to more patches you can afford to be even more ridiculous! with cannon defense.
here is an example of the fast three base (again the build order is kinda off but the general idea is shown.)
http://drop.sc/209276
On June 28 2012 04:03 Nyast wrote:
Corruptors are a real pain. I keep losing games stupidly because of them. Like, I have a great start, excellent macro, take a decently fast third ( 10' ), get my MS, make 10-15 cannons at my third, then start to move out to harass with a dozen voids or so.. and then suddenly comes 20+ corruptors that instantly snippe my MS. Cannons underneath it basically do no damage, the MS is shot in a second, so if you were looking away during that second, it's pretty much gg. You can remake a MS and it'll get snipped again asap as it's back. Doesn't matter if Zerg loses 10-15 corruptors each time and it's horribly cost innefficient for him, he can easily get on 6 bases and without recall, moving to harass with your air army is just too risky.
I recently tried to incorporate some early agression ( 4 gate + voidray pressure ) to slow down the Zerg, but the problem is that it slows you down a lot too, so I'm thinking of going back and getting into as much air as possible, as fast as possible.
yeah you just have to recall right away and make them fly over as many cannons as possible for as long as possible. Mothership positioning and constant minimap awareness is important versus this sniping tactic. If they dump all of their gas into corruptors and souicide it onto your MS we need to watch the replay but I'm not very convinced they will have enough fungal to defend a dedicated counterattack.
Instead of just 100% "waiting for recall" I have been trying to improve my gamesense for when chainfungals are not possible, and when my army can do decisive damage. Honestly I'd say pump another MS a rounds of carriers and just go for it with a good spread and focus on micro, just theorycrafting though.
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On June 28 2012 04:03 Nyast wrote:
Corruptors are a real pain. I keep losing games stupidly because of them. Like, I have a great start, excellent macro, take a decently fast third ( 10' ), get my MS, make 10-15 cannons at my third, then start to move out to harass with a dozen voids or so.. and then suddenly comes 20+ corruptors that instantly snippe my MS. Cannons underneath it basically do no damage, the MS is shot in a second, so if you were looking away during that second, it's pretty much gg. You can remake a MS and it'll get snipped again asap as it's back. Doesn't matter if Zerg loses 10-15 corruptors each time and it's horribly cost innefficient for him, he can easily get on 6 bases and without recall, moving to harass with your air army is just too risky.
I recently tried to incorporate some early agression ( 4 gate + voidray pressure ) to slow down the Zerg, but the problem is that it slows you down a lot too, so I'm thinking of going back and getting into as much air as possible, as fast as possible.
Exactly the reason why i prefer to go for a faster tech, Like archons for corrupters.
Sniping a MS is Pain, but with tech you should be safe to take 4th even without MS.
And yea - vortex,vortex
But i must say that it's really close to GG when you lose the MS.
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On June 28 2012 06:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah you just have to recall right away and make them fly over as many cannons as possible for as long as possible. Mothership positioning and constant minimap awareness is important versus this sniping tactic. If they dump all of their gas into corruptors and souicide it onto your MS we need to watch the replay but I'm not very convinced they will have enough fungal to defend a dedicated counterattack.
You can't really have minimap awareness without a fast robo ( which I don't get, but I think I will from now on ). Zerg has total map control.
I've currently lost my last 5 games to Zerg when going skytoss. Whereeas just a month ago I went 10-0 with it 
Most of those losses have one thing in common: once his third has kicked in, and Zerg realizes I'm going skytoss, he makes 10-15 corruptors and suicides them into my MS ( usually located behind 10 cannons at my third ). Once I've lost my MS, a doomspush happen. I've seen many variations, but the ones that scare me the most are mass hydras, and mass lings+bannelings.
Hydras definitely aren't cost effective, he'll likely lose his entire army, but I'll lose most of my cannons and half of my voidrays. By the time my MS has come back, there are more corruptors than my remaining air army can handle. I'm forced to play on the defensive, cannot ever get my fourth, while Zerg takes his 5th+, and can afford to throw wave of hydras after wave of hydra into me.
The second kind of push is scary. Zerg maxes on 15 corruptors and the remaining 200/200 of upgraded lings/bans. He'll attempt run-bys and busts left & right, and it just doesn't matter if you have 15 cannons and 15 voidrays, you won't be able to kill that many lings once he enters your base. The only way to survive is to not let your walls get busted by bannelings, and it's easier said than done since his army is very mobile, and yours isn't. In any case, getting your fourth is next to impossible..
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On June 28 2012 17:38 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah you just have to recall right away and make them fly over as many cannons as possible for as long as possible. Mothership positioning and constant minimap awareness is important versus this sniping tactic. If they dump all of their gas into corruptors and souicide it onto your MS we need to watch the replay but I'm not very convinced they will have enough fungal to defend a dedicated counterattack. You can't really have minimap awareness without a fast robo ( which I don't get, but I think I will from now on ). Zerg has total map control.
when I say minimap awareness, I mean, watch the minimap, and be aware if corruptors are sharking nearby. Similar to how you would defend against drops.... I mean... your looking at the minimap. You don't put the mothership over the cannons, you put it behind them and constantly move it using the cannons as a shield.
As for the rest of the post it's pretty hard to be specific without seeing replays. I still have an absurd winrate north of 90% and I'm midish highish masters. Sorry to hear it's not working as well for you anymore.
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On June 28 2012 17:38 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2012 06:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:
yeah you just have to recall right away and make them fly over as many cannons as possible for as long as possible. Mothership positioning and constant minimap awareness is important versus this sniping tactic. If they dump all of their gas into corruptors and souicide it onto your MS we need to watch the replay but I'm not very convinced they will have enough fungal to defend a dedicated counterattack. You can't really have minimap awareness without a fast robo ( which I don't get, but I think I will from now on ). Zerg has total map control. I've currently lost my last 5 games to Zerg when going skytoss. Whereeas just a month ago I went 10-0 with it Most of those losses have one thing in common: once his third has kicked in, and Zerg realizes I'm going skytoss, he makes 10-15 corruptors and suicides them into my MS ( usually located behind 10 cannons at my third ). Once I've lost my MS, a doomspush happen. I've seen many variations, but the ones that scare me the most are mass hydras, and mass lings+bannelings. Hydras definitely aren't cost effective, he'll likely lose his entire army, but I'll lose most of my cannons and half of my voidrays. By the time my MS has come back, there are more corruptors than my remaining air army can handle. I'm forced to play on the defensive, cannot ever get my fourth, while Zerg takes his 5th+, and can afford to throw wave of hydras after wave of hydra into me. The second kind of push is scary. Zerg maxes on 15 corruptors and the remaining 200/200 of upgraded lings/bans. He'll attempt run-bys and busts left & right, and it just doesn't matter if you have 15 cannons and 15 voidrays, you won't be able to kill that many lings once he enters your base. The only way to survive is to not let your walls get busted by bannelings, and it's easier said than done since his army is very mobile, and yours isn't. In any case, getting your fourth is next to impossible..
You and I have very different experiences with the fast mothership play. The whole reason I started going stargate first against Zerg was for map control. You get map vision with a robo, but no control. A small group of phoenixes can force all of your opponents overlords back into his base, and deny him any map vision for most of the mid-game. Just keep your phoenixes on patrol over important run-by lanes whenever you're not actively micro'ing them, and you should have plenty of map awareness off a stargate first.
Admittedly, if you tech into fast mothership and lose it, that can be a game ender many times right there. You need the MS to be able to hold the 3rd against that 11 to 12 minute push of either roach/hydra or ling/muta/corruptor, depending on your opponent's tech choices, obviously.
Regarding the issue of the corruptor suicide squad, I have died to this on occasion (same thing with hydra hit squads sent to your third). If you have 4 or 5 cannons at your third, this tactic by and large should not work, though. Keep you voids (you should have 3-4) with your mothership until you have the energy for that recall, because you absolutely can not be caught with your pants down like having your voids out harassing without the energy for a recall. As long as you are very quick about that recall, you MS should basically never die against a small group of a dozen corruptors.
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what happens when zerg makes a ton of mutas and heads for the main or something? if zerg 100% commits to mutas it seems like you arent going to be able to defend with just pure cannon, and due to voidrays being slow and phoenixes needing to be massed in order to deal with a high muta count, i have a hard time believing you could defend all your bases without stalkers and fast twilight tech
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On June 29 2012 01:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
what happens when zerg makes a ton of mutas and heads for the main or something? if zerg 100% commits to mutas it seems like you arent going to be able to defend with just pure cannon, and due to voidrays being slow and phoenixes needing to be massed in order to deal with a high muta count, i have a hard time believing you could defend all your bases without stalkers and fast twilight tech
Rarely will you see zerg commit this much to muta, and rightly so. You already have the infrastructure to make mass phoenix. With two stargates being chronoed you will build up a good number pretty quickly. Until then the mothership, cannons and void rays should minimize the damage. Even better, you have the fleet beacon for phoenix range upgrade.
So the transition is easy, and once the mutas are defeated you should have an easy time against a zerg that wasted so much gas.
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On June 29 2012 01:46 Shikada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 01:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
what happens when zerg makes a ton of mutas and heads for the main or something? if zerg 100% commits to mutas it seems like you arent going to be able to defend with just pure cannon, and due to voidrays being slow and phoenixes needing to be massed in order to deal with a high muta count, i have a hard time believing you could defend all your bases without stalkers and fast twilight tech Rarely will you see zerg commit this much to muta, and rightly so. You already have the infrastructure to make mass phoenix. With two stargates being chronoed you will build up a good number pretty quickly. Until then the mothership, cannons and void rays should minimize the damage. Even better, you have the fleet beacon for phoenix range upgrade. So the transition is easy, and once the mutas are defeated you should have an easy time against a zerg that wasted so much gas.
having the infrastructure to go mass phoenix and having enough phoenix to handle a critical mass of mutas are very different things. it's not like you will have the time to make enough phoenixes and get the range upgrade once you see the mutas fly into your base. i feel like for this build to be safe against heavy muta builds you would need to scout the spire way ahead of time, which means using hallucination, robo, or making a phoenix first to scout. however none of these options seem ideal to me because the 100 gas for hallucination or robo is desperately needed to get all the stargate tech and upgrades out, and i don't like the idea of trying to take a fast defensive third while opening stargate and going anything but voidray first. voidrays are only "decent" against roaches and lings because they are air units, phoenixes are even worse.
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Well I don't know how exactly you play the skytoss style, but once I scout I'm safe from roach rushes and what not (with probes) I go double stargate and before 10:30 I hit with 4 void rays with +1 weapons. If he is rushing mutas he won't have them before 11 minutes, so if you attack at this time there's a good chance you'll spot his spire. The chance is bigger if you attack the main, since most zergs place their tech there, although which base you attack is very map specific (usually you will want to target the third since it's the hardest one to get the queens to).
So even if he rushed mutas he will have a few at most at this time, enough to beat with 4 +1 VRs, if he sends them to my base I'll drop a few canons next to my stargates and mineral lines and chronoboost phoenixes. When I attack with the inital 4 VRs I always rally stargates to my base, never to the VRs, because if he counter attacks you need those VRs home to defend. This is essential! So you will have those two VRs for defense, keep them over your canons and micro them until other canons are done and more phoenixes are out. Not to mention that your VRs will ravage his base if he tries this. Really, all this isn't even that hard, and it still surprises me how many zergs just flat out lose from the initial VR aggression.
Important notes:
- 4 VR +1 weapons harass rules
- against mutas use extra minerals (that you will have) for canons and pump phoenixes
- you power your stargates with like 3+ pylons right ?
- build stargates between your main and natural, on the high ground near your natural wall off (it's the hardest to scout and safest from runbays and you can use those canons from the wall to defend your VRs while you defend stargates from mutas)
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On June 29 2012 01:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
what happens when zerg makes a ton of mutas and heads for the main or something? if zerg 100% commits to mutas it seems like you arent going to be able to defend with just pure cannon, and due to voidrays being slow and phoenixes needing to be massed in order to deal with a high muta count, i have a hard time believing you could defend all your bases without stalkers and fast twilight tech
On June 29 2012 02:25 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 01:46 Shikada wrote:On June 29 2012 01:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
what happens when zerg makes a ton of mutas and heads for the main or something? if zerg 100% commits to mutas it seems like you arent going to be able to defend with just pure cannon, and due to voidrays being slow and phoenixes needing to be massed in order to deal with a high muta count, i have a hard time believing you could defend all your bases without stalkers and fast twilight tech Rarely will you see zerg commit this much to muta, and rightly so. You already have the infrastructure to make mass phoenix. With two stargates being chronoed you will build up a good number pretty quickly. Until then the mothership, cannons and void rays should minimize the damage. Even better, you have the fleet beacon for phoenix range upgrade. So the transition is easy, and once the mutas are defeated you should have an easy time against a zerg that wasted so much gas. having the infrastructure to go mass phoenix and having enough phoenix to handle a critical mass of mutas are very different things. it's not like you will have the time to make enough phoenixes and get the range upgrade once you see the mutas fly into your base. i feel like for this build to be safe against heavy muta builds you would need to scout the spire way ahead of time, which means using hallucination, robo, or making a phoenix first to scout. however none of these options seem ideal to me because the 100 gas for hallucination or robo is desperately needed to get all the stargate tech and upgrades out, and i don't like the idea of trying to take a fast defensive third while opening stargate and going anything but voidray first. voidrays are only "decent" against roaches and lings because they are air units, phoenixes are even worse.
You don't need to "take-our word for it" Just try it yourself, or watch some replays. Yeah I've lost a few games to Muta, but I normally win. Saying it's a counter and can't be dealt with is absurd. It's indeed a bit tricky and will test your multitasking, however.
On June 28 2012 06:38 Fogetaboudit wrote:honestly instead of macro nexus I have been just planting it at the third behind 1 cannon versus ECO openings from zerg I'm not convinced they can do anything about it just yet. All they have are slow lings, which are not good vs 1/2 cannons. I constantly sacrifice probes to scout when I take this obnoxious third, and since I have instant access to more patches you can afford to be even more ridiculous! with cannon defense. here is an example of the fast three base (again the build order is kinda off but the general idea is shown.) http://drop.sc/209276
here is a game I just played vs Muta. I was unable to scout for them and a huge pack showed up in my base when I had 1 Phoenix, but I was still able to stabilize and win the game. Obviously if you can scout for them you will be much better prepared. As always, there is room for refinement and better execution on both sides, of course.
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I'm a bit surprised that I seem to be the only one getting trouble with this strat.. I'll address a few comments:
On June 29 2012 00:55 HelioSeven wrote:
You and I have very different experiences with the fast mothership play. The whole reason I started going stargate first against Zerg was for map control. You get map vision with a robo, but no control. A small group of phoenixes can force all of your opponents overlords back into his base, and deny him any map vision for most of the mid-game. Just keep your phoenixes on patrol over important run-by lanes whenever you're not actively micro'ing them, and you should have plenty of map awareness off a stargate first.
First of all, at which level are you playing ? I'm mid/high masters. Most of my Zerg opponents will scout my gas timings, become extremely suspicious if they don't see high-tech units, and sacrifice overseers repeatedly to know what I'm doing. There's litterally no way I can hide what I'm doing before any of my push hits.
Right, so Zerg has knowledge. I'm out on the map with my first phoenix/voidray, I snippe the overlords near my base, get control of the XNC towers, while Zerg is doing two things:
- get mass spores and queens ( he saw 2 stargates, or a stargate and a fleet beacon. No way he will under-estimate my strat )
- tech to some kind of anti-air: hydras, spire or quick infestors.
Given that Zerg knows what you do quite early, by the time you have a MS and enough energy for a recall, he will already have a force strong enough to force you on the defense. Yeah, you'll have map control... between 8' and 12'. After that though, you'll be in the dark for the rest of the game..
On June 29 2012 00:55 HelioSeven wrote:
Admittedly, if you tech into fast mothership and lose it, that can be a game ender many times right there. You need the MS to be able to hold the 3rd against that 11 to 12 minute push of either roach/hydra or ling/muta/corruptor, depending on your opponent's tech choices, obviously.
I'm not particularly afraid of lings/roach pushes at 11-12'. What I die to are pushes with strong anti-air that come a bit later (14-15'). When Zerg first maxes on tons of anti-air.
On June 29 2012 00:55 HelioSeven wrote:
Regarding the issue of the corruptor suicide squad, I have died to this on occasion (same thing with hydra hit squads sent to your third). If you have 4 or 5 cannons at your third, this tactic by and large should not work, though. Keep you voids (you should have 3-4) with your mothership until you have the energy for that recall, because you absolutely can not be caught with your pants down like having your voids out harassing without the energy for a recall. As long as you are very quick about that recall, you MS should basically never die against a small group of a dozen corruptors.
Your comment makes me think we are not on the same page.
3-4 voids ? Heh, no Zerg attacks when I have 3-4 voids. That's like at 10'. They attack around 14', like when they max on hydras with 15 corruptors. I'd have a dozen voidrays are this moment. Even assuming I don't get caught off-guard, Zerg will send his corruptors to kill my MS, and will kill it. 15 corruptors can kill a MS even with cannons and voidrays attacking them ( voids aren't charged yet ).
Then the flood of hydras come in. 200/200 of 1/1 ( or even worse, sometimes 2/2 ) hydras absolutely murder 12 voidrays + 10+ cannons. You may survive if you have carriers or some splash damage ( colossi, templars ) but since the push is quite early ( 14' ), if you go for splash damage you'll have less voidrays.. hmm...
Next time I get killed by those timing pushes, I'll post a replay. So you all understand my pain 
On June 29 2012 03:08 Shikada wrote:
Well I don't know how exactly you play the skytoss style, but once I scout I'm safe from roach rushes and what not (with probes) I go double stargate and before 10:30 I hit with 4 void rays with +1 weapons. If he is rushing mutas he won't have them before 11 minutes, so if you attack at this time there's a good chance you'll spot his spire. The chance is bigger if you attack the main, since most zergs place their tech there, although which base you attack is very map specific (usually you will want to target the third since it's the hardest one to get the queens to).
Another comment where I feel like I'm not playing the same game
When I push with 4 voids, there are 3-4 spores per expo and 5-6 queens, and everything linked by creep. Spores buy enough time for queens to come in defense. There's no way I can harass or do any damage with that. Then if I haven't scouted the spire, mutas come in and voidrays are too slow to escape them. It's auto-gg if you're not prepared.
Do Zergs never scout you, for you to be so successful with those kind of pushes ? My Zergs always seem to be perfectly prepared
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Well Nyast, I guess master zergs are that much better at scouting than diamond ones. Makes sense
If I feel I can't get anything done I retreat instantly. Conserving VRs is more important. But even so you're not behind and can take a safe third. Against mutas I'm not sure at that level of play, so I'm sure you know better. But I don't think he can get enough that early that you can't escape. Not if he's going 3 base, all those spores and queens. What's the number of mutas he needs to beat 4 +1 VRs? Without clumping them and with good focus fire not less than 10 surely.
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On June 29 2012 04:59 Nyast wrote:Next time I get killed by those timing pushes, I'll post a replay. So you all understand my pain
good plan, I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious.
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And now that I'm looking for a replay, I win again. Two Zergs killed already. But I'm back to the original build, without pressure, direct air. So that may be the reason. When I went 0-5 I was experimenting with 4 gate pressure and teching to colossi in the mid game ( as opposed to just focusing on air, and getting archons or colossi only in the end game ). So maybe I had bad luck, or maybe not concentrating on air was a bad idea/build, I'm not quite sure anymore. On the other hand, I'm facing Zergs that only have 50 drones at 9', so maybe they're bad. But if I lose doing the original build, I'll post it.
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EPT
