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On July 24 2012 07:07 Shikada wrote:
Sorry for switching the topic a bit, but what do you do when zerg goes for a baneling bust before the mothership is out? I'm not sure what the best response would be.
Silly macro nexus shenanigans aside, if you smell baneling bust, ever, get sentries. In fact, getting a couple sentries at some point not a bad idea in any case. Sure, it's a hunk of gas, but you can always use the extra minerals to econ a bit faster. Even if you don't use the forcefields you have a few guardian shields later on, which always helps. Watch hydras against carriers with GS, it's fun.
A couple of sentries is always good safety against early aggression. Put 'em on a different hotkey, though, sometimes you gotta dance them back while the carriers wreck.
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reading about the idea of zerg denying the 3rd and 4th with heavy ling pressure, is it possible to get out a single carrier early enough to take your bases without screwing over your economy. The reason I ask is that interceptors kill zerglings and banelings extremely fast, and would allow you to easily repel any ling/bling pressure.
I honestly have not attempted this build as my mechanics are crap and I am working on improving over trying out new builds. I really like the idea of pure skytoss though, so I would love to experiment once I can get my macro to an acceptable level.
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Basically, I send a Zealot and a Void to the third and build one pylon next to the nexus. If they send enough lings (say, 20-ish) to cancel that, I'm out 300 minerals, I've killed a bunch of the lings, and they had to bone their own economy to make that many lings, so I'm fine with the delay. If they send them right when you start it, that means they already made the lings instead of ~10 drones, so you're really fine with losing 300 minerals for free with a cancel. That's the beauty of a fast third--they have to either really commit, or they can't do anything about it because they've been droning.
After the pylon is done, I put a cannon down, then another pylon, then another cannon, then another pylon. You have a minor sim-city for fighting lings where the cannons hug the nexus and 3 pylons form a partial wall next to them. If you get attacked, you can build one more building and block off the cannons, which makes speedlings super cost-inefficient, even while these buildings are 75% done because your first cannon, your zealot, and your Void Ray will do so much damage (even though it's lings). The thing about getting a Carrier is that you have to spend 250 gas on it, and it takes 120 seconds to build. For 150 more gas and 40 more seconds, you could have a Mothership. You can't afford both, so it's better to just get the Mothership because it does a more solid job of defending your third base. Plus, you want it as soon as possible because Mothership energy is a valuable resource which increases over time. More energy means more vortexes to deter timing attacks. It also means more move-out times where you roll out with an army and hunt down bases, then teleport out when the infestors show up (or to defend a base from counter-attacks).
Personally, I have been a lot happier lately with opening 13 Gate in PvZ, so I don't FFE anymore. I don't even want to begin to bring that debate into this thread, but it's worth mentioning because otherwise I would probably post some replays to help. I still take fast thirds or go into heavy stargate/fast mothership play, but I don't do it from the FFE because I prefer to get some stalkers out early to pressure the zerg...I have War3 micro so I might as well use it.
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that makes sense. I haven't really had much experience with motherships, but using it for defense seems very solid.
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On July 25 2012 02:01 Morton wrote:
that makes sense. I haven't really had much experience with motherships, but using it for defense seems very solid.
Yeah, the cloaking is a real boon, even if your opponent brings detection (which can usually be sniped anyway). But it's the build-up of energy that really makes the mothership incredible at defense. Mass recalls and vortexes are worth their weight in gold that early in the game.
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well if you do a +1 2gate zealot push like i do, then no amount of slings are gonna stop a mothership with some +1 zealots underneath it from securing a 3rd.
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This strategy makes me cry, what should I do? I tried a corruptor/ling timing, but it was to no avail (Bad engagement, i had lings get decimated by cannons, then corruptors took tons of fire)
I had a burrowed drone (lol) to deny his fourth, but he got it up anyways because he built cannons before the nexus. I tried to break him at his fourth, but void rays decimate corruptors. I didn't have infestors because I lost them all, and I felt that I needed to attack NOW...it got crushed, and shortly after he just a-moves and wins. A fairly fast game, I got starved out.
Also i lost 80 lings for nothing, which was terrible but not game-ending. It really wasn't close...what should I do differently to attempt to win?
Replay: http://drop.sc/229057
Guy was very mannered, apparently Protoss players are nicer than zergs xD
Thanks!
Edit: I think I felt pressured to attack because I scouted a gateway transition incoming. And I hate archons. I got REALLY lucky and was gonna roach drop his main, but 20 roaches spawned and killed the archons. Didn't help me from losing the game though.
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On July 27 2012 09:08 emaster wrote:
well if you do a +1 2gate zealot push like i do, then no amount of slings are gonna stop a mothership with some +1 zealots underneath it from securing a 3rd.
I usually get a slow +1 attack, not throwing any chrono boost on it, but for that very reason. Having some zealot cushion is never really bad against anything, in the early game, and the +1 timing with your third going down is hard for a Zerg to push against. Later on they don't scale so well with the shields upgrades (the way cannons do, for instance), so you gotta balance out that resource usage, but zealots are always a welcome cushion early on.
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On July 27 2012 09:59 Mavvie wrote:This strategy makes me cry, what should I do? I tried a corruptor/ling timing, but it was to no avail (Bad engagement, i had lings get decimated by cannons, then corruptors took tons of fire) I had a burrowed drone (lol) to deny his fourth, but he got it up anyways because he built cannons before the nexus. I tried to break him at his fourth, but void rays decimate corruptors. I didn't have infestors because I lost them all, and I felt that I needed to attack NOW...it got crushed, and shortly after he just a-moves and wins. A fairly fast game, I got starved out. Also i lost 80 lings for nothing, which was terrible but not game-ending. It really wasn't close...what should I do differently to attempt to win? Replay: http://drop.sc/229057Guy was very mannered, apparently Protoss players are nicer than zergs xD Thanks! Edit: I think I felt pressured to attack because I scouted a gateway transition incoming. And I hate archons. I got REALLY lucky and was gonna roach drop his main, but 20 roaches spawned and killed the archons. Didn't help me from losing the game though.
Someone pls answer him ; ; I died to this on Daybreak and had never seen any openings to harass....
It all ended when he maxed out, destroyed the rocks, gg
fungals and hydras and transfuse was not enough
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http://drop.sc/218765
Study that replay, the endgame was played beautifully!
If you can play the game like that, then whoever manages expansions better will win.
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On July 27 2012 15:24 Conai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 09:59 Mavvie wrote:This strategy makes me cry, what should I do? I tried a corruptor/ling timing, but it was to no avail (Bad engagement, i had lings get decimated by cannons, then corruptors took tons of fire) I had a burrowed drone (lol) to deny his fourth, but he got it up anyways because he built cannons before the nexus. I tried to break him at his fourth, but void rays decimate corruptors. I didn't have infestors because I lost them all, and I felt that I needed to attack NOW...it got crushed, and shortly after he just a-moves and wins. A fairly fast game, I got starved out. Also i lost 80 lings for nothing, which was terrible but not game-ending. It really wasn't close...what should I do differently to attempt to win? Replay: http://drop.sc/229057Guy was very mannered, apparently Protoss players are nicer than zergs xD Thanks! Edit: I think I felt pressured to attack because I scouted a gateway transition incoming. And I hate archons. I got REALLY lucky and was gonna roach drop his main, but 20 roaches spawned and killed the archons. Didn't help me from losing the game though. Someone pls answer him ; ; I died to this on Daybreak and had never seen any openings to harass.... It all ended when he maxed out, destroyed the rocks, gg fungals and hydras and transfuse was not enough
Proactively deny his third while taking a fourth, spreading creep, and getting tons of queens. Prevent him from taking his third until 12-13 minutes, then get hydra corruptor, make a huge push at 15:00, and win...
EDIT: don't forget to engage wherever he has the least cannons. That might be his natural. Otherwise, drop or double-nydus his main. I'd say up until ~15:00 you want pure hydra on the ground and pure corruptor in the air. After that add infestors and control them well (but not too many). If things drag out, you should be able to prevent him from taking a fourth forever by forcing him to engage your army away from cannons. Then after he kills you (at great cost), you remax on whatever will kill him (probably pure corruptor with lings for ground) and push again IMMEDIATELY, before he has a chance to cannon the fourth up. You starve him, he can't make units.
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Yesterday somebody went for a bust with hydras at around 13'.. using a nydus just in front of my natural ! So creep spread isn't a factor, and he can reinforce directly in your face  Found it quite effective  First vortex helped to temporize but I didn't have enough units afterwards to hold 40+ hydras.
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On July 28 2012 03:08 Nyast wrote:Yesterday somebody went for a bust with hydras at around 13'.. using a nydus just in front of my natural ! So creep spread isn't a factor, and he can reinforce directly in your face Found it quite effective First vortex helped to temporize but I didn't have enough units afterwards to hold 40+ hydras.
Yeah I've been SUPER worried about this. Been holding it like 50% of the time but I hardly ever face it so my efficiency and the attackers efficiency have a lot of room to improve.
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Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you
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On July 28 2012 03:24 nGBeast wrote:
Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you
Used this all my pvzs at 900ish masters eu, won all Devo still viable
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I just think that you can't go FFE into defensive air-only play and expect it to work. The pressure is too little--too late, and you have to rely on static defense so much. I'm still a huge fan of air play and I almost always use Stargate units as part of my composition in PvZ, but I'm much prefering opening 13Gate and pressuring the zerg. In my opinion, it is better to be the bully when you face Zergs. If you start off the game by letting them call the shots, you're screwing yourself over.
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On July 28 2012 03:31 Nihilnovi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:24 nGBeast wrote:
Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you Used this all my pvzs at 900ish masters eu, won all Devo still viable
a 12 min 200 food stephano roach push will shit all over you, it doesn't matter how much static d/void rays you have you will die and lose the base and he's only losing roaches while on 3 bases.
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lololololololol ^^^^
You do know that mothership cloaks my units right? Good luck stomping over the invisible tight wall with invsible cannons and voidrays behind it with just roaches.
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On July 28 2012 04:00 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:31 Nihilnovi wrote:On July 28 2012 03:24 nGBeast wrote:
Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you Used this all my pvzs at 900ish masters eu, won all Devo still viable a 12 min 200 food stephano roach push will shit all over you, it doesn't matter how much static d/void rays you have you will die and lose the base and he's only losing roaches while on 3 bases.
You know, this is one of the things that I fear the absolute least. Absolute bottom of the food chain. I've faced the 12 minute max, and it's just a ridiculously easy hold each time. My mothership cloaks my shit. If you bring overseers, they die instantly. You can't get in, and you either retreat or die. Either way, I go rape your main with 6-8 void rays while you're stuck outside my base doing no damage... Bye bye lair... bye bye spire, hydra den, infestation pit, evo chambers, queens, ...
What -really- shakes my boots is a 200 food hydra push at 14:30. I only hold that 50% of the time. (I'm getting better though; extra cannons sure help.)
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On July 28 2012 04:00 nGBeast wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2012 03:31 Nihilnovi wrote:On July 28 2012 03:24 nGBeast wrote:
Yeah I don't think this is viable anymore, and roaches so fucking good he can just trade roaches endlessly and lol at you Used this all my pvzs at 900ish masters eu, won all Devo still viable a 12 min 200 food stephano roach push will shit all over you, it doesn't matter how much static d/void rays you have you will die and lose the base and he's only losing roaches while on 3 bases.
nice theorycraft
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EPT
