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On May 01 2012 15:18 Lafer wrote:
Do you have any replays of you losing to a push while taking a third at all, or does every Zerg you play try to come up with a composition to beat it and abandons the Stepaho style push?
I'm sorry if I sound odd asking for replays of losses, I just feel like I, along with many others, can learn a lot more about this build by seeing it beat. It just seems too easy, lol.
If you don't have a replay, maybe you can play a custom and have someone try to break it with the Stephano style?
Here is an example of 40 roaches trying to do damage, not a full Stefano bust but this is basically how it could look, except you have to imagine more damage being dealt, and more roaches being "spent" http://drop.sc/170081
I think its important to understand how much you can really get done with a good Sim city and cannons. Of course we could have both microed better, I should have just completely walled, but this is a good visualization of how it "could" look.
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I've had this done to me a few times.
it only worked the first time.
banelings off 3 base ftw.
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On May 01 2012 18:37 eu.exodus wrote:
I've had this done to me a few times.
it only worked the first time.
banelings off 3 base ftw.
this is pretty smart. Trying to vortex them is a pretty funny micro battle. They explode and demolish your worker line/Nexus even if its cloaked, and your sim city works against you. That's very interesting. I guess its a question of how costly it is versus how much damage is dealt, and sounds very micro intensive. I'm worried that you will never break the army and just trade gas for minerals, which if the Protoss is able to hold on and stick it out, maybe he can be fine, but it sounds like you did well.
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On May 01 2012 12:55 BronzeKnee wrote:
People need to watch the replays before they discount this build. It used to be so good when Voids had the speed upgrade that Flux Vanes was removed from the game. If you don't respond properly and try some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra timing you'll simply lose to it. The only really effective response would be Infestors/Muta/Corrupter.
Indeed, I've done a few tests in a unit tester and the results are pretty interesting. Many Zerg compos are effective against mass voidrays but they all have something in common: no hard counter ( at the end of the fight, only few units remain from a side or another ), and no cheap armies ( the ressources worth, both in minerals AND gas, must be close ).
A 200/200 maxed corruptors army loses versus a maxed voidrays army, but if you take into account Zerg's eco advantage and an immediate reprod in full corruptors, it would win. That's without using vortex.
Other than that, one of the best army compos I've found is a third of infestors, a third of corruptors and a third of hydras. Also, full infestors ( 200/200 infestors lol ! ) is not bad and has the advantage of being able to neural-parasite the mothership if it comes into battle.
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On May 01 2012 12:57 Fogetaboudit wrote:
I just don't like how expensive sentries are, aside from protecting from an early all in and a late game guardian shield... I'd rather not spend any gas on "forcefields" and rather spend all of it on the Victory Fleet!
I know its a bummer, but it IS a necessary investment, you either have to pump out gateway units or get a small investments in sentries plus 1-3 (depending on threat) cannons in order to have a safe, stable FFE resistant to all-ins. As a side bonus I've been using this opening vs Z for a few months and it looks deceptively unsafe, causing Z to try to bust me and immediately giving me a massive econ lead when I defend it. There is no better tech to be in when you're already ahead than air!
Also if Z goes for a hydra timing, the 16 forcefields you saved up will be vital to zoning out the hydras to stop them from swarming your delicate voids.
I tried sky-toss out a few times in peepmode for funsies, and after upsetting a large number of bets I realized that carriers are actually a good mineral sink, also Z has a hard time powering air upgrades, and when carriers have an upgrade advantage they actually exchange decently vs corruptors, while laughing heartily at mutalisks due to 2 base armor vs no base armor (blizz why you gotta take away my beast 4 armor carriers?) Neural parasite is a joke ability, its super easy to identify and target fire the infestor doing it, and thats just 5 less infested marines under your feet, vs a mothership its fine, vs a carrier in a sky-ball its terrible.
One other thought is this build is frighteningly unsafe to ling runby's when you push out if you just go Sky. You should take your mineral excess (don't invest it in carriers until you're working on +3 air weapons imo) and invest it in a.) Sim city gates/pylons/cannons to defend the 3rd and, b.) a roving chargelot force (~20 zealots with any sentries you have alive) to defend ling runbys, if they send anything heavier either split your air force or delay with warp ins and defend at cannons until some air support can come. Cannons and your playstyle should be enough to dissuade Z from going heavy into mutas.
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you beat me with it, sorry for the bm
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Looks interesting, I might have to try it out.
On thought I had while reading is that if you need a mineral sink, a warp prism + zealot warp-ins to harass might be a worthwhile investment. Depends on how many cannons you need though, but taking out a spire or infestation pit is always nice, you could send the fleet to their fourth and then drop the main.
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I've tried the build and you only start to get excess minerals once the third is saturated ( then the gas becomes the limiting factor ).
I'm not 100% convinced it resists the Stephano style, especially with a few hydras mixed in. In none of your replays I've seen a properly executed Stephano style. In the latest one you posted, I think Zerg barely reached 160 food at 12', that's 20 roaches missing there. And at that timing, the number of cannons isn't so high, 4-5 max at the natural, 5 voidrays and a mothership to defend it.. I'm not sure you have enough dps to avoid serious damage. I'd really like to see how that build holds versus a well executed Stephano style.
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I would hate to play vs that build in a ZvP. But since i know the build i could scout it way better with my 2 sneaky overlords. And if the P really goes on that build, i would str8 3 bases mutas with lings blocking the 3rd xpand untill i get the right amount of Mutas to pretty much kill him. And if that doesn't work well infestors like every said would be great.
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On May 02 2012 03:43 Levernz wrote:
I would hate to play vs that build in a ZvP. But since i know the build i could scout it way better with my 2 sneaky overlords. And if the P really goes on that build, i would str8 3 bases mutas with lings blocking the 3rd xpand untill i get the right amount of Mutas to pretty much kill him. And if that doesn't work well infestors like every said would be great.
that's signing your own deathwish, you cannot kill phoenixes off 3 stargates worth of production. just not gonna happen. I can deflect muta's with 6 phoenixes with range upgrade out of 1 stargate, not to mention pumping them out of 3.
Yeah the one thing i really wanna see is a properly executed 12 min roach max and see how you get the third up in that battle. still haven't gotten around to testing this unfortunatly 
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I actually tried this like more than an year ago back when mothership was still slow acceleration speed, it can actually work but there's one problem. A decent opponent will make overseers in order to see your cloaked units, then he will go roaches or hydras depending on your composition, if you go too void ray heavy then he will get tons of hydras and overrun you before colossus is up, or when you don't go void ray heavy, you get overrun with roaches with overseers. Plus it's vulnerable to the 2 base nydus hydra though no one does it anymore.
It can still work, but you'll need to use stalkers and sentries to defend the third with lots of cannons and void rays. Once you defend and stabilize your 3rd, I would recommend transitioning to carriers and take a 4th. It's very hard and you'll need to have perfect forcefields and vortexes to pull it off. However once you achieve a high number of carriers and also get archons to kill corruptors then you're invincible.
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On May 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:I'm not sure you have enough dps to avoid serious damage. I'd really like to see how that build holds versus a well executed Stephano style.
Yes I would love to see this as well, it's hard to say because most people just stop making roaches so my sample size of games like this is pretty small.
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On May 02 2012 01:34 TSM wrote:
you beat me with it, sorry for the bm
lol no problem, this always induces the worst rage/ BM you can imagine. 
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This is kind of a random question, but does anyone know if you can build on a vortex? Like, suppose you threw down a vortex, could you put a nexus down where the vortex was? O_O
Also, I played a couple monobattles with a friend for giggles. I went mass roach and managed to max at ~13/14 mins off of thee bases and a macro hatch with a pretty crappy build-- I got supply blocked a couple times, threw down a gas too early, missed some injects, etc. I did throw down a few spines as well, so that kind of counts for the defense I would have had to get in a "real game". (suppose I should have sacked an ovie as well). First big wave of roaches I wiped out 3 expansions and a bunch of stray thors. Next time I went back in with burrowed +1 roaches. When my teammates finally moved in, it was GG.
Anyways, apart from my awesome monobattle skills, I don't think getting a 12/13 minute roach max is actually that difficult. I rarely play Zerg, and I was pretty close on my first try, even with my screw ups.
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On May 02 2012 15:49 ticklishmusic wrote:
This is kind of a random question, but does anyone know if you can build on a vortex? Like, suppose you threw down a vortex, could you put a nexus down where the vortex was? O_O
Also, I played a couple monobattles with a friend for giggles. I went mass roach and managed to max at ~13/14 mins off of thee bases and a macro hatch with a pretty crappy build-- I got supply blocked a couple times, threw down a gas too early, missed some injects, etc. I did throw down a few spines as well, so that kind of counts for the defense I would have had to get in a "real game". (suppose I should have sacked an ovie as well). First big wave of roaches I wiped out 3 expansions and a bunch of stray thors. Next time I went back in with burrowed +1 roaches. When my teammates finally moved in, it was GG.
Anyways, apart from my awesome monobattle skills, I don't think getting a 12/13 minute roach max is actually that difficult. I rarely play Zerg, and I was pretty close on my first try, even with my screw ups.
Of course its not hard to max on roaches?!, the questions is how much damage can they do before they get killed, and how much did you invest into them.
Just because you ran around in monobattles and sniped some bases doesn't mean roaches never die.
Unfortunately most people that I face abandon roaches when they see mass voidray+cannon+MS (imo for good reason)
But people here are theorycrafting that irreversible damage can be dealt, before the roaches die off. I would like to practice against a Stefano style and see if an equally skilled player could break me, I seriously doubt it. I think there is so much you can accomplish with a good sim city and highground/well placed cannons/micro. Also, there is nothing wrong with cancelling your third, waiting a minute or two, and planting it back down... your tech is so much superior and when you have a critical VR mass the zergs army becomes more and more useless, and you are going to kill his units more and more efficiently (to justify a delayed third, if you even had to delay it in the first place.) imho.
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On May 01 2012 18:37 eu.exodus wrote:
I've had this done to me a few times.
it only worked the first time.
banelings off 3 base ftw.
I just played a game against 3 base banelings,...
http://drop.sc/170666
I take a LOT of damage, lose 2 Nexus but...
+ Show Spoiler +
Of course he could have microed better but the same can definately be said for me, either way I think the strategy is definately viable versus 3 base banelings aggression, as far as I can tell.
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What time is your mother ship ready? Because roaches can not break the wall that they can not see, and vr can snipe overseers quickly. If you have ms up by twelve mins vs pure roach shouldn't be too bad..
Also I only got to play one game with this, though I used adonminus zealot opening, sniped 3rd and went air during the pressure. Worked out well, since that opening forces roaches. Final battle was hilarious also, I lost 700 minerals worth of units, he lost 7000:D. Though his unit comp was terrible
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IDK the exact time to be honest, I get it as soon as possible, I just kinda wing it everygame and my build could be better but... 1SG, strait to Fleet beacon, and immidiately get Mothership while never cutting void production from the 1 SG.
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I took my first 6 voids into his main and killed his tech, and while i was there roaches killed all 3 of my nexi LOL. i saved all the probes, rebuilt all nexi, killed all roaches when my void rays returned home (as they were killing main and natural nexi), and then won the game :D
thanks for this build
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On May 02 2012 17:13 Kaladin wrote:
I took my first 6 voids into his main and killed his tech, and while i was there roaches killed all 3 of my nexi LOL. i saved all the probes, rebuilt all nexi, killed all roaches when my void rays returned home (as they were killing main and natural nexi), and then won the game :D
thanks for this build
Rofl that sounds Hilarious. Did you try to get a Mothership? You can Cloak one of your Nexi and some cannons which is awesome. Then you can desperately try and chase his roach pack around cloaking as many important buildings as possible while your VR's cleave through his main. Of course he can get overseer but you can try to snipe it or always go for recall and defend everything. Glad you had fun with it!
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/Screenshot2012-05-0209_28_37.jpg)
