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On May 01 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:
The build sounds interesting, and fun, so I'll definitely give it a try ( I'll try it from a 1 gate FE though, even better timings for that.. ).
But how crazy must you go with cannons to hold a Zerg that'd commit to roaches/hydras ? This kind of zergball has tons of dps, it sounds like 20-30 cannons per base wouldn't even be enough.. but with voidrays support I don't know, I really have trouble to envision how easy/hard it is to defend various pushes/timings with mass cannons + only voidrays support.
Check out the second Peep Mode replay. Zerg has a maxed army of Hydra Roach and he handles it easily at the third with just a few Cannons Cannons, his Voids and his Mothership.
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Lol, this build was solid! 
I was behind like crazy and still won. works like a charm in diamond even though I played terrible
http://drop.sc/169656
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Watched the replays, one thing I would suggest is to add a robo for observers to this build, you need to know where his army his so that you can do some hit & run harass on his tech. Also you definitely need to increase the number of gates, maybe not that much, I'd go to 4-5, you're floating tons of minerals in the mid-game so that shouldn't be a problem. The reason ? Zerglings run-bys would definitely be annoying if your voidrays are far away or your MS lacks energy..
You also need a second cybercore faster, and I'd also suggest to upgrade shields quickly since you have an idle forge. It may be the first build where the shield upgrades take priority over the ground upgrades :p
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I have to go, so I won't write much. Still, I watched the first replay, and it proves nothing about the viability of this build. Your opponent went for a 2 base lings all in, and you blocked it. After this, you were able to deny his third with a few voids and could really do anything you wanted.
I feel like your discription of your strategy leaves much to be desired. You say you rush defensive mothership, but you don't give a time of when you go for it. In the replay, you went mothership off 3 base and around a dozen voids. That isn't exactly a rushed mothership. You also delayed 3rd and 4th gas. Maybe this was a mistake; you are rusty as you said, but I don't know if it was or if it was intentional.
I agree that a maxxed army of void rays is really strong, but I feel that a good zerg will never let you hold a third base with this strategy. Roach/corrupter off 3 base will just constantly attack while he takes the rest of the map. Even if you were able to do so, your mobility is rather poor. Drops and multipronged attacks would be very strong against your void ray army. It moves slowly, and really needs to be together. It wont kill lings very quickly, so you will be forced to get up even more cannons around all of your bases and delay further expansion even more.
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United States1402 Posts
That first replay is a ridiculous example. You went forge/nexus, he went speedling expand into a zergling all-in that had no chance of ever doing damage. You were ahead all game.
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors.
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On April 30 2012 23:34 Surili wrote:
Please tell me shit like this doesn't work, beacause if it does, this game is terrible.
:D
Seriously though, that dimaga socke game was silly, it was one of those classic times that dimaga didn't attack with a huge lead, and he managed to throw the game away.
This shit works. White-ra just did a variation of it on his stream 15 minutes ago on Ohana. He made a more carrier heavy composition and transitioned in a partial ground army, but it is totally viable. I think carriers are garbage units compared to vrs on a cost/supply effectiveness basis. Carriers are worse than ultralisks.
I think the optimal way of playing it would be to go 2 stargate+beacon and rush a mothership while massing VRs and getting warpgates+cannons with extra minerals and eventually taking a 3rd when it becomes possible. For this to happen, you will probably need a decent amount of gateway units and just massing voids won't work. From there you need to transition into HT tech for archons+feedback. If zerg tries to counter this with hydras and corruptors eventually you will get to some critical mass of voidrays where you can kill his shit anyway, but if he's wiser and gets a ton of infestors you will lose. I don't know if this would work if zerg just decided not to get any hydras, roaches, or corruptors and just went infestors+upgraded lings.
I also wonder if you could just ditch voidrays entirely, but tech quickly to mothership and warpgates and try to take a third, add in robo tech, and try to play a standard game. Using your build order timings, the fastest mothership possible would be 10:20 on 2 base, and taking an 11 minute 3rd with a mothership+gateway units would definitely put you in a decent position for the rest of the game.
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MC once said "stargate imba". 
I'll attest that this build is actually really, really effective, though against very good zergs (I'd say at the mid/high GM-ish level) who just do a Stephano/DRG (sorry, don't know who invented it) quick 3 base into 12 minutes max roach bust, it has some risks because you don't have enough DPS to defend against that many roaches with ling followup. But to that kind of bust in time, you need really, really good macro.
I've used this a couple times, though mostly just for lulz against friends because I didn't think it was really viable. I did win with it most of the times (I remember b/c those are the pretty much the ONLY games where I won with carriers). Then again, admittedly, PvZ is my best matchup w/ over 70% winrate.
A few notes:
Limit zerg creep spread
Warp prisms can be very easily incorporated into this build
Observers everywhere
Play like you play "In Utter Darkness" from the campaign (I'm serious)
I would like to try this, but its finals week at my school. Maybe in a couple weeks.
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Do you have any games where the zerg player actually does the Sephano style roach bust? How do you fair against that?
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On May 01 2012 07:03 Lafer wrote:
Do you have any games where the zerg player actually does the Sephano style roach bust? How do you fair against that?
You should be able to scout it when poking around, but as is you are stretched really thin at the 5 Void rays, a MS and a ton of cannons are not good agains 70 roaches, but your units are in the air! He has a small window where he can try to split and run by and all that,,, but he cannot trade with you forever, with a better econ, like he can if your army is on the ground. When your VR count starts to get higher and higher it will snowball eventually and his returns will be demising quickly. It's a little bit ugly, you might lose some probes, some pylons, some buildings, but you wont lose any attacking units, and as soon as you stabilize he had better have an answer for your army, which gives you time to Macro/ expand/ remake stuff.
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On May 01 2012 04:06 phyren wrote:
I have to go, so I won't write much. Still, I watched the first replay, and it proves nothing about the viability of this build. Your opponent went for a 2 base lings all in, and you blocked it.
Yes I'm aware this game is not that helpful, because of the ling all in, which is why I apologized in the OP. I just posted it mostly to show the composition (lol) the defense (cannons ftw) and the recalls and stuff.
The second/ third replay is a much better game and shows the build against a normal econ.
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Hmmm I wasn't aware that recall got you out of chain fungals. Interesting to note!
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On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors.
Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue.
"Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way.
You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well.
My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something.
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On May 01 2012 09:56 FabledIntegral wrote:
Hmmm I wasn't aware that recall got you out of chain fungals. Interesting to note!
That one actually makes sense because its the Mothership acting on the units. But SCV"s repairing colossi... Day9 showed me that and I almost shat myself...
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and then you get good, face zergs who scout, and are maxxed at 13:30 minutes with 30 +1+1 hydras and 35 roaches at your doorstep. GL holding that off without a ground army.
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Cyanogen: how can you play that shit and not see how fucked that it?
Cyanogen has reconnected.
Cyanogen: a mothership at 12 mins?
Cyanogen has disconnected.
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On May 01 2012 11:49 xOny wrote:
and then you get good, face zergs who scout, and are maxxed at 13:30 minutes with 30 +1+1 hydras and 35 roaches at your doorstep. GL holding that off without a ground army.
I've held it off many times, this composition is the easiest to hold, pure roach running by into your main and into your third is much trickier, they trade army for damage, and not army for army, but you stabilize soon enough. With the roach hydra, you just win army vs army.
Please see this replay, http://drop.sc/169483 . It's peepmode so skip in 10 minutes past the first game. Watch this from zergs POV. His mechanics are extremely good, and this player does a similar timing attack to the one you are describing, I hold it.
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I have tried similar game styles of getting a fast mothership, It works particularly well on entombed valley. To me its a very map specific build. It works kinda well on Metroloplis but you need good FF.
(Masters toss btw)
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On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors.
Did you know that the Mothership cloaks units? Did you know that Void Rays are particularly good against armored units like Overseers?
There is no way a mass ling force will be able to deny the third if the Mothership is sitting there. Even if 8 Voids can't kill the Lings that quickly, they can easily lay waste to even large numbers of Overseers quite quickly. Furthermore the Protoss can use Vortex to defend the third.
People need to watch the replays before they discount this build. It used to be so good when Voids had the speed upgrade that Flux Vanes was removed from the game. If you don't respond properly and try some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra timing you'll simply lose to it. The only really effective response would be Infestors/Muta/Corrupter.
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I just don't like how expensive sentries are, aside from protecting from an early all in and a late game guardian shield... I'd rather not spend any gas on "forcefields" and rather spend all of it on the Victory Fleet!
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If you don't respond properly and try some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra timing you'll simply lose to it. The only really effective response would be Infestors/Muta/Corrupter.
Exactly!
If they max out on corruptor/ infestor this is the hardest thing to beat.
In open space, you can lose max vs max, but with recall you can always re-evaluate, re tweak your composition, rework your spread, re-enforce, or simply turtle if you want.
Even though fast and maxed corruptor/infestor can be tough near midmap, it's pretty hard to attack with this composition, and you definitely can't engage when the Protoss has a defensive posture and is supported by cannons/rally/ warp in.
Also, in max vs max situations versus infestor/corruptor I have been thinking about warping in a few stalkers (after finding a way to free up the supply) to go after the infestors, they literally can't be touched... and it's kinda funny. Of course they can morph broods but then they are weak versus the air, and around and around it goes.
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EPT
