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On April 30 2012 22:22 lahara wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 19:37 Immutant wrote:
If you truely want to be invincible, add HTs late game into the mix. They cost only 2 supply? And 1 storm would wipe out the cluster of corrupters/hydras. They can also feedback infestors. + their movement speed is on par with the mothership so you get 2 OP spellcasters in an area.
I see this a lot in 3v3, 4v4 team games. No, one storm does not wipe out the cluster corrupters and hydras. hydras need 2 storms to kil corruptors need three...
I know, but 1 storm is enough, the zerg will never recover from that damage. If he stays and fight, his forces will die. If he retreats, the slow speed of hydras and corrupters will mean VRs (which can attack while moving) get to pick them off. 1 full energy HT can storm 2 times and it costs only 2 supply. 4-5 HTs are enough. It's an extremely cost efficient army because the only zerg AA counters to Mass VRs are Hydras/Corrupters(VR good vs armored)/Queens/Mutas/Infestors and the inclusion of HTs will negate hydras,queens, mutas and infestors vs pure VR.
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On April 30 2012 23:34 Surili wrote:
Please tell me shit like this doesn't work, beacause if it does, this game is terrible.
:D
Seriously though, that dimaga socke game was silly, it was one of those classic times that dimaga didn't attack with a huge lead, and he managed to throw the game away.
well, it works as far as I can tell... I agree its a bit silly, there is no epic forcefield micro, or sick timing, but thats the game.
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hahahaah cheers bro im dimond and kept losing to zergs but this strat is pro thanks hahaha gw man
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On April 30 2012 23:58 firemansam wrote:
hahahaah cheers bro im dimond and kept losing to zergs but this strat is pro thanks hahaha gw man
<3
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When do you start to put pressure back on Zerg ? As soon as you have recall on your mothership ? What in-game time is that generally ?
How fast do you upgrade ? Do you go double-cybercore upgrades ?
How many gates do you make ? Just 1 ? Or more, "in case of emergency", for ex. warping sentries ? If so how many gates do you go up to ?
While you're producing all those voidrays, Zerg can freely drone and get a crazy economy. What prevents him from going mass corruptors and overflow you with those ? You won't deny scouting either, Zerg will know pretty early that you're going for mass voidrays.
It's a bit like what WhiteRa does sometimes as a "special taktik" on ladder. He goes fast carriers on 2 bases, secures his third and goes for.. more carriers, and a delayed mothership. It wins when Zergs are caught by surprise or don't know how to react, but sometimes Zerg just go mass corruptors and the carriers stand no chance. I know voidrays are pretty decent versus corruptors, however will you have enough of them in time since Zerg's got the eco advantage since the beginning ?
Do you have replays of a Zerg scouting you early and committing to heavy economy into corruptors ?
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I used to do a style like this, but I would expand behind carriers and turn it into a chargelot-archon followup to kill the hydras/corruptor. It's a good thing zergs haven't learned to magic-box corruptor vs archons yet :D. (Stole the build from whitera - he used to do it on shakuras a lot).
Anyway, I like the idea of a defensive moship better, feels like a safer third base.
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On May 01 2012 00:20 Nyast wrote:
I know voidrays are pretty decent versus corruptors
I'd be more worried about 3-base ling/muta, which many zergs will use against any FFE play.
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How would you deal with a fast baneling bust? Do you overinvest in cannons immediately- this is a pretty big sign to zergs that they can eco freely. If you're not investing into sentries at all, I could see that giving you some trouble.
Also how do you pressure beyond your initial stargate opener? Once the zerg stabilizes it seems like you can't really do much to stop them from hitting an unreal economy and just rolling you, since you have to wait for 100 energy on a mothership before you can risk moving out and losing your voidrays (or being able to defend counters)
On May 01 2012 00:20 Nyast wrote:
How fast do you upgrade ? Do you go double-cybercore upgrades ?
How many gates do you make ? Just 1 ? Or more, "in case of emergency", for ex. warping sentries ? If so how many gates do you go up to ?
I have these same questions. Especially the gateways. I do wonder if you're just floating tons of minerals and sinking them into cannons if maybe just adding gateways isn't a bad idea, for an "oh shit" scenario or to feign pressure (zerg scouts tons of gates, freaks out and makes units rather than drones). They make decent walls.
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On May 01 2012 00:25 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:20 Nyast wrote:
I know voidrays are pretty decent versus corruptors
I'd be more worried about 3-base ling/muta, which many zergs will use against any FFE play.
I don't see that as a big problem.. zerglings won't pass the sim-city of cannons at each base, and mutas will get owned by phoenixes ( which he can have very quickly since he's on many stargates ), and since he goes fast mothership anyway, the range upgrade for phoenix is only half a minute away.. no, lings/mutas is definitely the least of the concerns with that build..
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On May 01 2012 00:20 Nyast wrote:
When do you start to put pressure back on Zerg ? As soon as you have recall on your mothership ? What in-game time is that generally ?
How fast do you upgrade ? Do you go double-cybercore upgrades ?
How many gates do you make ? Just 1 ? Or more, "in case of emergency", for ex. warping sentries ? If so how many gates do you go up to ?
While you're producing all those voidrays, Zerg can freely drone and get a crazy economy. What prevents him from going mass corruptors and overflow you with those ? You won't deny scouting either, Zerg will know pretty early that you're going for mass voidrays.
It's a bit like what WhiteRa does sometimes as a "special taktik" on ladder. He goes fast carriers on 2 bases, secures his third and goes for.. more carriers, and a delayed mothership. It wins when Zergs are caught by surprise or don't know how to react, but sometimes Zerg just go mass corruptors and the carriers stand no chance. I know voidrays are pretty decent versus corruptors, however will you have enough of them in time since Zerg's got the eco advantage since the beginning ?
Do you have replays of a Zerg scouting you early and committing to heavy economy into corruptors ?
Good questions.
In the earlygame (10:30-12:00) I'm always pressuring the zerg with the Void rays, you can always harass, scout, and retreat. If they start to get a ton of queens, spores, or hydras then I need to back off a bit. I could probably be a bit more active than I am, however it's incredibly important not to lose any. After this period in the earlygame, I only poke in and attack if I have a recall available, since you cant really run away from fungals or corruptors..
If I tech pretty strait to MS she will have 100 mana for a recall and I'll have 7 Void rays at about 13 minutes, I can poke here pretty safely if I'm not busy defending 100 roaches.
Good question about the upgrades. I don't know whats best but lately I've been adding the second core, and 2 more Stargates, sometime after 1/1 and after the third is established.
Usually very few gates, very often only 1, but I could be convinced this is bad. Sometimes I play around with opening up with zealot pressure and therefor I'd have 2 gates, you could also argue a few more to be safe... IDK
The supply cap is what prevents him from overwhelming me with corruptors, they can't really freely drone either, if they are not paying attention or cant get defense into place for just a few too many seconds I can snipe some really important buildings.
I love White-Ra but I hate that build that he does, honestly it was my inspiration to go double stargate and mess around with it, but Carriers are just so hard countered, Void rays not so much. VR's
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Well one thing why i prefer carriers over voidrays is, neural. Neural has a +1 range advantage on the Voidray and the Infestor can throw down a fungal before for extra damage. And Voidrays kill other Voidrays at light speed. Also just 2 supply against 3 of the Voidray. And of course neuraled units don't get recalled, if the recall is to slow you will lose alot of units.
Also Fungal is a key element at preventing Voidrays from stacking, so i would say Infestors are essential.
And while Templars and Colossus can snipe Infestors, its fairly easy to fungal those without the Voidrays and afterwards neural the Voidrays and those 4 seconds are enough if the Voidrays get out of position. (range of 2 away from Colossus/HT)
Another thing is that larger groups of Voidrays have a really hard time to get into charge mode if not controlled right. And without charge they aren't a problem. Its really easy though to charge pre battle.
Without charge engagements will more or less look like a giant flock of Spores running under the Voidrays that cannot retreat because of Fungal and the Spores won't get enough damage before they root. Spores are the bane of air heavy armies, because an air army needs time to get big and spores don't cost supply, so it gets worse and worse. And while Overlords do die super fast, its enough to spread enough creep even while attacking.
So a Queen (better Hydra against air), Infestor combination with spore support can deal fairly well with Voidrays, leaving you tons of supply free to deal with anything else the toss adds. Queen again +1 range advantage on the Voidray and you aren't in any hurry to beat the Protoss. But I have to add if someone lets me I go up to 230 supply as Zerg, which is usually the case against Toss players.
I encountered this a few times along time ago and used it myself as well. But at that time Voidrays had the speed upgrade still. After the speed was gone it would mean while Phoenix are the fastest air unit, the Zerg air in general is faster then Toss air and can decide where to engage. Also i think the Zerg would be in micro favor. Mutas would be in the front and would reduce the damage of the Voidrays, while the Mutas would simply splash everything. As Zerg I usually killed all Voidrays and still had Mutas and Corruptors to protect the Mutas. The range upgrade on the Phoenix should switch those engagements into the Tosses favor though again and i have to add my opponents strangely never charge pre battle if they have voidrays. (this 200 supply roaches is funny if you charge your voidrays seconds before they arrive)
Still Voidrays are such a good unit but they need good controls, to become truly devastating (Favorite unit lategame unit for pvp). So its not like there is a true hardconter to them, but zergs ground anti air is really sturdy and extremely cheap as well (especially on supply and gas). But luckily most zergs don't even consider using queens, neural or mass spores.
What I currently do against Stargate play, is the simple Hydra push (with Nydus added, but its more a distraction and doesn't see alot of use other then reinforcing). Since 2 ingame minutes after Lair finishes your creep spread is at the front of the opponents base allowing your Hydras to micro around like crazy. If the Toss notices it in time, it will probably take around 3 ingame minutes. In general the Colossus is to late because they miscalculated when the Hydras will arrive.
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On May 01 2012 00:31 Durp wrote:How would you deal with a fast baneling bust? Do you overinvest in cannons immediately- this is a pretty big sign to zergs that they can eco freely. If you're not investing into sentries at all, I could see that giving you some trouble. Also how do you pressure beyond your initial stargate opener? Once the zerg stabilizes it seems like you can't really do much to stop them from hitting an unreal economy and just rolling you, since you have to wait for 100 energy on a mothership before you can risk moving out and losing your voidrays (or being able to defend counters) Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 00:20 Nyast wrote:
How fast do you upgrade ? Do you go double-cybercore upgrades ?
How many gates do you make ? Just 1 ? Or more, "in case of emergency", for ex. warping sentries ? If so how many gates do you go up to ?
I have these same questions. Especially the gateways. I do wonder if you're just floating tons of minerals and sinking them into cannons if maybe just adding gateways isn't a bad idea, for an "oh shit" scenario or to feign pressure (zerg scouts tons of gates, freaks out and makes units rather than drones). They make decent walls.
well honestly, this is probably how I have lost most of my games. To various all ins before I get that first 1-2 Void Rays out. But all of these weaknesses are the same for any version of the FFE, if they hit before WG.
You just gotta scout and react. Lately if I don't confirm a third is down, and they are going eco, I feel like buying and extra cannon or two is justified, even if it's mostly blind I feel it is okay if your not spending all that gas on Sentries, of course I could be wrong here, who knows.
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Watched the Peepmode replay, heres a few ideas to smooth out and speed out the play:
1.) On a FFE after the 17 nexus/cannon/gate/pylon throw down 2 assimilators at 18, if you're going air you're going to need the gas, similarly I'd play around with throwing down a REALLY fast 3rd, gas and a 4th once nearing 32 mineral workers at both bases combined.
2.) Defending Z busts relies on 2 things:
a.) throwing down more and spread out cannons and maybe another backup pylon when you anticipate the all in coming. OP mentioned this a bit, you wont be able to see exactly what the Z is doing, but if you don't see a 3rd by 5-6 minutes, throw down some security cannons.
b.) sentry production is VITAL in stopping bane busts, you need to plan to build up to 4 sentries. I know this slows your build down a lot, but its either that or just throw in the towel if he bane busts you. The bright side is the low min cost of sentry allows you to saturate more gases quicker and survive the low mineral income.
3.) A lot of people mentioned the fear of hydra drops, but if you're playing well this actually shouldn't be a problem. You have to get a phoenix flock to protect the voids from mutas (you'll probably start with some voids, get the phoenix numbers up then switch back to voids at like 6~ phoenix). Your air army allows you to push away dropping overlords, and if he drops in front of you phoenix can pick up and 1 volley kill hydras as they unload, with some pretty simple focus fire. with hydra numbers kept low, you should be able to overpower them with warp in zealots (what else are you doing with mins?) and air. Mainly, Z should not get ovies in number near your base once the air is out.
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On May 01 2012 00:57 FeyFey wrote:
Well one thing why i prefer carriers over voidrays is, neural. Neural has a +1 range advantage on the Voidray and the Infestor can throw down a fungal before for extra damage. And Voidrays kill other Voidrays at light speed. Also just 2 supply against 3 of the Voidray. And of course neuraled units don't get recalled, if the recall is to slow you will lose alot of units.
Also Fungal is a key element at preventing Voidrays from stacking, so i would say Infestors are essential.
And while Templars and Colossus can snipe Infestors, its fairly easy to fungal those without the Voidrays and afterwards neural the Voidrays and those 4 seconds are enough if the Voidrays get out of position. (range of 2 away from Colossus/HT)
Another thing is that larger groups of Voidrays have a really hard time to get into charge mode if not controlled right. And without charge they aren't a problem. Its really easy though to charge pre battle.
Without charge engagements will more or less look like a giant flock of Spores running under the Voidrays that cannot retreat because of Fungal and the Spores won't get enough damage before they root. Spores are the bane of air heavy armies, because an air army needs time to get big and spores don't cost supply, so it gets worse and worse. And while Overlords do die super fast, its enough to spread enough creep even while attacking.
So a Queen (better Hydra against air), Infestor combination with spore support can deal fairly well with Voidrays, leaving you tons of supply free to deal with anything else the toss adds. Queen again +1 range advantage on the Voidray and you aren't in any hurry to beat the Protoss. But I have to add if someone lets me I go up to 230 supply as Zerg, which is usually the case against Toss players.
I encountered this a few times along time ago and used it myself as well. But at that time Voidrays had the speed upgrade still. After the speed was gone it would mean while Phoenix are the fastest air unit, the Zerg air in general is faster then Toss air and can decide where to engage. Also i think the Zerg would be in micro favor. Mutas would be in the front and would reduce the damage of the Voidrays, while the Mutas would simply splash everything. As Zerg I usually killed all Voidrays and still had Mutas and Corruptors to protect the Mutas. The range upgrade on the Phoenix should switch those engagements into the Tosses favor though again and i have to add my opponents strangely never charge pre battle if they have voidrays. (this 200 supply roaches is funny if you charge your voidrays seconds before they arrive)
Still Voidrays are such a good unit but they need good controls, to become truly devastating (Favorite unit lategame unit for pvp). So its not like there is a true hardconter to them, but zergs ground anti air is really sturdy and extremely cheap as well (especially on supply and gas). But luckily most zergs don't even consider using queens, neural or mass spores.
Well, against Fungal you just recall. But Neuro is very interesting. Against heavy infestor play I always add carriers, against heavy corruptor play I add VRs. I've probably done this build 1000 times and actually been "Neuraled" less than 10. Normally even though the neuraled VRs get stopped, the rest of the ball just keeps on moving, and they snipe the infestors so quick. I'm not sure how the battle would look, and I would love to see Pro's controlling it, but I can say I've never lost to Neuro based infestor play, not because its not viable, I just haven't run into it very much.
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This build used to work very well. So much so that it got nerfed (Void Ray Speed Upgrade removed from the game.) Check out the old thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903
The old build revolved around build mass Voids and Cannons.
Your build uses Recall as a replacement to the Speed Upgrade. Very interesting... it won't allow you to run from Hydra/Queens as easy, but obviously Recall is much more useful against Fungals which has become the more standard anti-air choice for Zerg.
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On May 01 2012 01:19 BronzeKnee wrote:This build used to work very well. So much so that it got nerfed (Void Ray Speed Upgrade removed from the game.) Check out the old thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174903The old build revolved around build mass Voids and Cannons. Your build uses Recall as a replacement to the Speed Upgrade. Very interesting... it won't allow you to run from Hydra/Queens as easy, but obviously Recall is much more useful against Fungals which has become the more standard anti-air choice for Zerg.
wow, nice find, yes exactly.
It's well written especially about the strength in numbers which is what I'm trying to get across.
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I watched the game in the PeepMode replay. Your opponents response was not good. Mass chain Fungal would be have been far more effective than Hydras, and it showed in the last battle, where he was able to do significant damage with Infestors to your Void Ray ball. And if you lose that ball, you lose the game. If your opponent responds with Hydras, you'll get a win with this strategy, but if they go for Infestors/Queens/Corrupters (Infestors being the key), you'll die to chain Fungals.
Even the old thread admits the threat:On December 07 2010 15:52 iamke55 wrote:
Mass corruptor/muta/infestor with 3/3 air upgrades: believe it or not, this can defeat your fleet! Now that I know about this threat, sniping spires is more important than sniping hives/lairs.
Basically, when Zergs got away from Hydras and began depending more on Infestors for anti-air, this build became unviable. Today lots of Zergs will open Hydras though in response to 2 Gate Stargate play, but they expect you to try and end the game with your air units and not get a Mothership and take a third.
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On April 30 2012 23:47 Immutant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 22:22 lahara wrote:On April 30 2012 19:37 Immutant wrote:
If you truely want to be invincible, add HTs late game into the mix. They cost only 2 supply? And 1 storm would wipe out the cluster of corrupters/hydras. They can also feedback infestors. + their movement speed is on par with the mothership so you get 2 OP spellcasters in an area.
I see this a lot in 3v3, 4v4 team games. No, one storm does not wipe out the cluster corrupters and hydras. hydras need 2 storms to kil corruptors need three... I know, but 1 storm is enough, the zerg will never recover from that damage. If he stays and fight, his forces will die. If he retreats, the slow speed of hydras and corrupters will mean VRs (which can attack while moving) get to pick them off. 1 full energy HT can storm 2 times and it costs only 2 supply. 4-5 HTs are enough. It's an extremely cost efficient army because the only zerg AA counters to Mass VRs are Hydras/Corrupters(VR good vs armored)/Queens/Mutas/Infestors and the inclusion of HTs will negate hydras,queens, mutas and infestors vs pure VR.
was just saying youre first statement was wrong. which it is and was.
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On May 01 2012 01:41 BronzeKnee wrote:I watched the game in the PeepMode replay. Your opponents response was not good. Mass chain Fungal would be have been far more effective than Hydras, and it showed in the last battle, where he was able to do significant damage with Infestors to your Void Ray ball. And if you lose that ball, you lose the game. If your opponent responds with Hydras, you'll get a win with this strategy, but if they go for Infestors/Queens/Corrupters (Infestors being the key), you'll die to chain Fungals. Even the old thread admits the threat: Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 15:52 iamke55 wrote:
Mass corruptor/muta/infestor with 3/3 air upgrades: believe it or not, this can defeat your fleet! Now that I know about this threat, sniping spires is more important than sniping hives/lairs.
Basically, when Zergs got away from Hydras and began depending more on Infestors for anti-air, this build became unviable. Today lots of Zergs will open Hydras though in response to 2 Gate Stargate play, but they expect you to try and end the game with your air units and not get a Mothership and take a third.
yes ofc chain fungals are GG thats why I warned about it earlier.
Fungal is the biggest thing to look out for, chain fungals are instant GG if you don't have a recall and are too balled up and caught out on the map. It's very important to only be aggressive if you have a recall available. If you are turtling behind your cannons you cannot really be "fungaled" there.
Good Luck!
The build is defensive minded, basically you want to mine half the gas on the map. and never lose your army. Being able to recall is the key. If you engaged bad, misjudged your opponents army, want to trade some supply for some damage, then recall out of there. If he is heavy on infestor you can always remax with more carriers (or colossus on 4base+)
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The build sounds interesting, and fun, so I'll definitely give it a try ( I'll try it from a 1 gate FE though, even better timings for that.. ).
But how crazy must you go with cannons to hold a Zerg that'd commit to roaches/hydras ? This kind of zergball has tons of dps, it sounds like 20-30 cannons per base wouldn't even be enough.. but with voidrays support I don't know, I really have trouble to envision how easy/hard it is to defend various pushes/timings with mass cannons + only voidrays support.
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EPT
