|
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with.
|
On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with.
I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost!
How would you deny the third?
Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. (Unlike a standard ground composition you are not trading army for army/buildings, you are trading army for buildings)
I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever.
+ Show Spoiler +
Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro.
I think you make a good point about the "enhancing gaming skills" this is relatively easy to pull off, but still, if it wins it wins. If there is lots of idle time for APM then everything could be improved as well. Void Ray micro could be close to perfect, sim city could be perfect, forcefields, etc.
|
a couple of questions...
1. How do you scout with this build? a very important scouting information would be if they are going mutas for instance... how do you find that out before its too late? (mind you zergs have a tendency to save up gas, and facing such a strat i would just save up a LOT of gas, to make my techswitch really strong)
2.when going double stargate will you be pressuring with the air units, if not - how do you deal with zerg just taking 5-6 bases, mine gas from them, and kill you with mutas?
3. if you pressure... how do you deal with loosing your initial air units (im not saying you will allways loose them, but if you do?)... as far as i can see, it leaves you with no infrastructure to come back from even a small deficit...
4. how do you deal with drops? if i turn all my overlords into dropships, i can drop all the places you cannons arent... i cant see how you can protect with cannons everywhere, and afford constant doupple vr production...
|
On May 02 2012 17:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with. I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost! How would you deny the third? Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever. Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro.
No need to defend yourself, I understand how good your stra is in master/lower leagues, but my point is in a pro scene, this would not work out very well(still can win with pro's execution and variation, but it is not a consistent play style and pros don't usually do it).
A well executed Stepahno style can kill your third effectively, a well timed hydra+ling attack could probably kill your third and you. By "well", I mean pro level skill. I as a master zerg and think I will definately fall to this stra executed by similar level P as I don't think i can kill/deny your third effectively, but imagining having pro level skill, it is not too hard to beat it even it is pro level P.
|
Hm, dunno if has been asked but can you go like:
Forge, Gate and then double core?
Cuz as i understand you don't really need forge except for the shield upgrades.
So it'll be cores getting attack and armor, and forge to get shields.
And i wanted to ask if carriers do well against ling/baneling?
Also does it stand against infestor/ling?
Thank you.
|
On May 02 2012 17:52 immanentblue wrote:
a couple of questions...
1. How do you scout with this build? a very important scouting information would be if they are going mutas for instance... how do you find that out before its too late? (mind you zergs have a tendency to save up gas, and facing such a strat i would just save up a LOT of gas, to make my techswitch really strong)
2.when going double stargate will you be pressuring with the air units, if not - how do you deal with zerg just taking 5-6 bases, mine gas from them, and kill you with mutas?
3. if you pressure... how do you deal with loosing your initial air units (im not saying you will allways loose them, but if you do?)... as far as i can see, it leaves you with no infrastructure to come back from even a small deficit...
4. how do you deal with drops? if i turn all my overlords into dropships, i can drop all the places you cannons arent... i cant see how you can protect with cannons everywhere, and afford constant doupple vr production...
1 - In the earlygame, you do as much scouting as you do with most FFE's, I normally try to figure out if they have gotten their quick third and try to feel out if some low econ cheesy all-in is coming. After this period you just poke with your Void Rays, if you don't see any roaches and not a lot of lings I would get pretty suspicious of Mutas. You can always fit in 1 or 2 phoenix just for scouting and it doesn't hurt that much.
2 - Absolutely pressure as much as possible unless you can lose your units, its important to be able to retreat without losing anything. If you are poking at edges retreating from hydra/queen/spore is easy, if infestors are out YOU NEED A RECALL to retreat from chain fungals.
3 - you absolutely should not lose void rays to queens/spores. This is not hard to micro, I am cautious I guess. Sometimes 13 mutas will pop and you will lose your initial void rays that are caught out on the map in an unfavorable trade (try to target 1 or 2 mutas). While this is bad, remember he had to buy the spire, and spent all of that gas on Mutas and you can switch easily into lots of Phoenix production (I'm not sure why you said "no infrastructure", we have double stargate) to trade efficiently in your favor, you also have time to prepare more defensive cannons at the mineral lines.
4 - Versus the blind all ins like fast hydra drop off of 2 base, or Nydus cheese that hit at like 10 minutes, I think this is pretty close to a build order loss (however I have beaten these before.) But they can't scout what you are doing and then react with these builds to exploit you, they need to do a blind all in and hope you happen to be doing a strategy that it works against.
The longer the game goes on the less I am dependant on cannons, I haven't dealt much with a midgame drop of infestor/hydra or something like this into the main. That is very interesting. Most zergs realize its a huge risk to go for a drop when you have all of this air. It could be a way to exploit my style but drops are not always as effective as it appears they could be. There is a lot of funny micro, and lots of DPS from the dropper is wasted on nexus/ assimilator/random buildinds when I can just fly in from the most optimal angle and focus my DPS/target down what I want to target down, also I have a Vortex don't forget.
|
On May 02 2012 09:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:I'm not sure you have enough dps to avoid serious damage. I'd really like to see how that build holds versus a well executed Stephano style.
Yes I would love to see this as well, it's hard to say because most people just stop making roaches so my sample size of games like this is pretty small.
Just to be clear, when I speak of a well Stephano executed style, I don't necessarily mean pure roaches ( though it'd also be interesting to see ). I mean the Stephano build going for a maxed roach army at 12', but when scouting the mass cannons/voidrays, a transition to hydras. I suspect a good Zerg can have a shitton of roach/hydras, near maxed, around 12'30. And you won't have that many cannons/voidrays at that time..
|
On May 02 2012 17:57 WinWalk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with. I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost! How would you deny the third? Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever. Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro. No need to defend yourself, I understand how good your stra is in master/lower leagues, but my point is in a pro scene, this would not work out very well(still can win with pro's execution and variation, but it is not a consistent play style and pros don't usually do it). A well executed Stepahno style can kill your third effectively, a well timed hydra+ling attack could probably kill your third and you. By "well", I mean pro level skill. I as a master zerg and think I will definately fall to this stra executed by similar level P as I don't think i can kill/deny your third effectively, but imagining having pro level skill, it is not too hard to beat it even it is pro level P.
Yeah I guess I am just like "gotta see it to believe it, pics or didn't happen!!lols" In the game I posted versus the ling/baneling, I defended terribly, lost 2 nexus and a ton of probes, but still won. I think while a pro could have attacked in a more optimal manner, and pro could have also defended in a more optimal manner.
|
On May 02 2012 18:18 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 09:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 03:12 Nyast wrote:I'm not sure you have enough dps to avoid serious damage. I'd really like to see how that build holds versus a well executed Stephano style.
Yes I would love to see this as well, it's hard to say because most people just stop making roaches so my sample size of games like this is pretty small. Just to be clear, when I speak of a well Stephano executed style, I don't necessarily mean pure roaches ( though it'd also be interesting to see ). I mean the Stephano build going for a maxed roach army at 12', but when scouting the mass cannons/voidrays, a transition to hydras. I suspect a good Zerg can have a shitton of roach/hydras, near maxed, around 12'30. And you won't have that many cannons/voidrays at that time..
you should take a close look at the picture in the OP, the timestamp, and the units tab. I think its a pretty strong timing that he goes for, roach/hydra with 1/1 and I manage to defend it.
It's taken from this game. http://drop.sc/169483 (peepmode, skip in 10 minutes for my PvZ)
I believe the Zerg was a better all around player than I am, and I think he executed his "build" pretty well (It's afaik the same build you are suggesting)
|
On May 02 2012 18:18 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:57 WinWalk wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with. I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost! How would you deny the third? Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever. Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro. No need to defend yourself, I understand how good your stra is in master/lower leagues, but my point is in a pro scene, this would not work out very well(still can win with pro's execution and variation, but it is not a consistent play style and pros don't usually do it). A well executed Stepahno style can kill your third effectively, a well timed hydra+ling attack could probably kill your third and you. By "well", I mean pro level skill. I as a master zerg and think I will definately fall to this stra executed by similar level P as I don't think i can kill/deny your third effectively, but imagining having pro level skill, it is not too hard to beat it even it is pro level P. Yeah I guess I am just like "gotta see it to believe it, pics or didn't happen!!lols" In the game I posted versus the ling/baneling, I defended terribly, lost 2 nexus and a ton of probes, but still won. I think while a pro could have attacked in a more optimal manner, and pro could have also defended in a more optimal manner.
Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game.
|
On May 02 2012 18:47 WinWalk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:18 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:57 WinWalk wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with. I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost! How would you deny the third? Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever. Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro. No need to defend yourself, I understand how good your stra is in master/lower leagues, but my point is in a pro scene, this would not work out very well(still can win with pro's execution and variation, but it is not a consistent play style and pros don't usually do it). A well executed Stepahno style can kill your third effectively, a well timed hydra+ling attack could probably kill your third and you. By "well", I mean pro level skill. I as a master zerg and think I will definately fall to this stra executed by similar level P as I don't think i can kill/deny your third effectively, but imagining having pro level skill, it is not too hard to beat it even it is pro level P. Yeah I guess I am just like "gotta see it to believe it, pics or didn't happen!!lols" In the game I posted versus the ling/baneling, I defended terribly, lost 2 nexus and a ton of probes, but still won. I think while a pro could have attacked in a more optimal manner, and pro could have also defended in a more optimal manner. Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game.
Bro, I understood your point the first time, you don't need to reword it. I just simply think your wrong. You have no evidence, and I have very little (a lot of amateur replays, and amateur experience.) Nobody knows for sure, of course.
|
I remember playing against this awhile ago. Most frustrating game of sc I have ever played.
Very effective strategy. Biggest problem I found is that going infestor/corruptor against this you need a lot of bases for the gas and its extremely painful defending them because the protoss army is more mobile. In addition if your infestors tend to get shredded by HT.
|
how does this fare against 2 base mass ling + infested terran bust (i think destiny made it popular a while ago)
basically you stay on 2 bases, get infestors with energy upgrade + burrow, throw all minerals into zerglings, then go for the bust once you have 5-8 infestors.
|
On May 02 2012 19:25 Cirqueenflex wrote:
how does this fare against 2 base mass ling + infested terran bust (i think destiny made it popular a while ago)
basically you stay on 2 bases, get infestors with energy upgrade + burrow, throw all minerals into zerglings, then go for the bust once you have 5-8 infestors.
I honestly have no idea, I can't remember facing this or anything close to it... it doesn't sound that scary though.
|
i've lost to this also. I could deny the 3rd, but could not stop the air-ball. However i figured out i could have won a base trade easily (was on 5 base). Mass expanding into base trade is probably the counter.
|
This works against pretty much anything but fast infestors
I use this on ladder all the time and you can actually engage hydralisks off creep and win very reliably. However, this build always wins either overwhelmingly or dies quickly to infestors, since you can't beat infestors without mass recall
|
On May 02 2012 19:37 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
i've lost to this also. I could deny the 3rd, but could not stop the air-ball. However i figured out i could have won a base trade easily (was on 5 base). Mass expanding into base trade is probably the counter.
base trading against Mass cannons and a well timed recall seem very tough, but it's an interesting idea. The protoss doesn't really want to base trade with my strategy, it's better to just turtle and mine half the resources on the map (even if you are expanding a little bit later than whats currently thought of as acceptable.) It's better to harass and then recall, defend, and fight than it is to base trade.
|
On May 02 2012 19:50 Banchan wrote:
This works against pretty much anything but fast infestors
I use this on ladder all the time and you can actually engage hydralisks off creep and win very reliably. However, this build always wins either overwhelmingly or dies quickly to infestors, since you can't beat infestors without mass recall
Yep a good chain fungal with no recall is GG, this is why I never am never risking my airball without an emergency recall available! Infestors can't really be aggressive versus your turtle, defensive positioning, and cannons.
|
Especially in Masters, I wish this didn't work so well. The first time I tried it I got an easy win.
I found that keeping 2-3 Sentries at each base to accompany the cannons (especially the third) make it really difficult for your third to get sniped.
Mass Recall is awesome. Sniping infestor tech is a priority here. Nice build!
|
On May 02 2012 21:40 Dysruption wrote:
Especially in Masters, I wish this didn't work so well. The first time I tried it I got an easy win.
totally agree, I don't understand why it's not more popular and not viable at the pro level, I can't find a hard exploit yet. I feel most people dismiss this because it doesn't look like "the right way to play" ... imho that's pretty stupid in a game that should be played to win and balance itself. Just watched MVP cheese Naniwa twice, and he seems okay at the game 
On May 02 2012 21:40 Dysruption wrote:I found that keeping 2-3 Sentries at each base to accompany the cannons (especially the third) make it really difficult for your third to get sniped.
Good idea, my problem is I'm always paranoid that I'll miss the forcefields and then I have these really expensive paperweights, I'm trying to use a strategy with the largest margin for micro error, but with the best results, however with good Sentry control I think you can be much more bold with your expansion timings.
Mass Recall is awesome. Sniping infestor tech is a priority here. Nice build!
Thank you! No better feeling than sniping the infestor pit and mass recall to defend the counter attack, lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/Screenshot2012-05-0209_28_37.jpg)
