|
On May 03 2012 01:42 How2getMaster wrote:So I tried this out twice with a little bit of refinement this could be pretty nice :D I uploaded both of the games. In the first one the tried standard play and had to transition into only hydra which failed. The second game was pretty interesting. He opened up Muta and then Corruptor Infestor Hydra. It was pretty close at some point but alle worked out pretty well. 1. http://drop.sc/1707402. http://drop.sc/170741Greetings. Hope you have to time to see the reps!
Funny games! I like how you sniped the natural and then ran like a coward in the first game, and in the second game he starts cussing or something in German and you blame your strategy on TL 
I have lost to versus Muta harass into a very strong/ clean Hydra timing if I over-produce Phoenix and am out of position for the defense. Always have to remember to be careful here.
|
On May 03 2012 10:00 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors. Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue. "Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way. You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well. My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something. I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose. I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts. Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it. Of course my opponent could have played better, I could have as well, and this will always be the case. I'm not sure how you intend to deny a third protected by X cannons, 9 voidrays and a mothership with pure zergling. Even if you can delay it, without letting your overseer get sniped, its eventually going to go up, and it will be protected by a good simcity. While mass mass mutas can be a problem if you are unprepared (obviously,) this composition can never do fatal damage, only harass. If I don't see any gas units and I have had my third for a little while I will be scared of mutas and can make a few phoenix to scout, and get a start on my techswitch. Also, phoenix production from 4 stargates with the range upgrade (and weapons and armor upgrades) does okay against muta, I can catch up in numbers extremely quickly, and now I have that many less infestors to worry about in the lategame.
The point is you don't get a third, you lose all of your probes, and the zerg then can just send units at you until you die, because you have no income left to produce more defense.
|
On May 03 2012 11:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 10:00 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 03 2012 09:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors. Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue. "Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way. You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well. My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something. I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose. I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts. Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it. Of course my opponent could have played better, I could have as well, and this will always be the case. I'm not sure how you intend to deny a third protected by X cannons, 9 voidrays and a mothership with pure zergling. Even if you can delay it, without letting your overseer get sniped, its eventually going to go up, and it will be protected by a good simcity. While mass mass mutas can be a problem if you are unprepared (obviously,) this composition can never do fatal damage, only harass. If I don't see any gas units and I have had my third for a little while I will be scared of mutas and can make a few phoenix to scout, and get a start on my techswitch. Also, phoenix production from 4 stargates with the range upgrade (and weapons and armor upgrades) does okay against muta, I can catch up in numbers extremely quickly, and now I have that many less infestors to worry about in the lategame. The point is you don't get a third, you lose all of your probes, and the zerg then can just send units at you until you die, because you have no income left to produce more defense.
No, they can't.
+ Show Spoiler +
http://drop.sc/170666
Contrary to popular belief, there are a finite amount of resources on all maps.
In this game he has lost 18K in army value, I've lost 0. Even though my micro is bad, and the walls/cannon placement are FAR from optimal, he is still not able to kill all of my probes.
My third is denied, AND an additional nexus, and 60 probes are killed. He taps out because he is all in and I stabilize.
|
On May 03 2012 11:26 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:17 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 10:00 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 03 2012 09:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors. Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue. "Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way. You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well. My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something. I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose. I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts. Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it. Of course my opponent could have played better, I could have as well, and this will always be the case. I'm not sure how you intend to deny a third protected by X cannons, 9 voidrays and a mothership with pure zergling. Even if you can delay it, without letting your overseer get sniped, its eventually going to go up, and it will be protected by a good simcity. While mass mass mutas can be a problem if you are unprepared (obviously,) this composition can never do fatal damage, only harass. If I don't see any gas units and I have had my third for a little while I will be scared of mutas and can make a few phoenix to scout, and get a start on my techswitch. Also, phoenix production from 4 stargates with the range upgrade (and weapons and armor upgrades) does okay against muta, I can catch up in numbers extremely quickly, and now I have that many less infestors to worry about in the lategame. The point is you don't get a third, you lose all of your probes, and the zerg then can just send units at you until you die, because you have no income left to produce more defense. No, they can't. + Show Spoiler +http://drop.sc/170666Contrary to popular belief, there are a finite amount of resources on all maps. In this game he has lost 18K in army value, I've lost 0. Even though my micro is bad, and the walls/cannon placement are FAR from optimal, he is still not able to kill all of my probes. My third is denied, AND an additional nexus, and 60 probes are killed. He taps out because he is all in and I stabilize.
Seriously? Your opponent doesn't scout you at all, makes tons of lings and is behind you on workers for the first 10 minutes. He then floats 2000 minerals and does a poorly executed baneling attack that could have easily killed all the workers in both your main and natural if he controlled his units at all. He made literally only lings and banelings to attack you and was still behind on workers after every attack because he never droned and didn't do proper damage. Meanwhile he let you mass 21 void rays and you consider this a game that proves your style is viable?
As I said a zerg can make a huge number of mutalisks off a 3-4 base economy with full gas income and kill your air fleet before it gets big, or kill all of your probes. It doesn't matter by that point if you can make phoenix off 3-4 stargates, because the zerg can then make whatever they want to kill you due to the crippled economy and low count of void rays. The entire point is zerg shouldn't be letting you get mass void rays in the first place.
For that matter, you can't even hold a proper stephano style roach push with this. You'll lose everything except your 4 void rays and then they will just make literally any anti-air units and kill the rest of your buildings and your void rays after that.
|
Your arguments boil down to "well he could have played better, doesn't count"
you consider this a game that proves your style is viable?
I never said my replays "prove" my style is viable at a pro level, I said this
On May 02 2012 18:54 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:47 WinWalk wrote:On May 02 2012 18:18 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:57 WinWalk wrote:On May 02 2012 17:40 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
This is the ultimate turtle P style. Very easy to pull off, but even master Z would have problem dealing with it. However, it is not commonly used in pro games, I think it is mainly because pro zergs can easily find the timing to deny your third.
Denying the third is the key to beat this stra, amateur players(including master and lower leagues) are usually scared by the VR and cannons, or don't know what to build against this as it is not common, and as a result, they usually miss the opportunnity to deny the third. But this is relatively easier for pro players. They are calm, they know what to build, when to attack and can deny your third easily.
Another reason pros dont use this is because it doesn't really enhance your gaming skills. As I said, this is very easy to pull off, but takes much more skills to deal with. I really disagree with "easily deny your third," I believe the third can be killed but at what cost! How would you deny the third? Also, even if the third is killed, I believe that if the zerg spends too much army in exchange for the third, that you can just plant it down later with your slightly worse econ, and much superior army/tech. I played a game versus baneling/ling and he killed 2 of my Nexi, but he could never trade with my army, so he lost 18K worth of resources compared to my 8K worth of buildings/Nexi/probes/zeal/whatever. Also, understand that my build is by no means ironed out, a Pro on the Protoss side could probably find a way to have a few extra units out as well/ better sim city/ couple epic forcefields/ better micro. No need to defend yourself, I understand how good your stra is in master/lower leagues, but my point is in a pro scene, this would not work out very well(still can win with pro's execution and variation, but it is not a consistent play style and pros don't usually do it). A well executed Stepahno style can kill your third effectively, a well timed hydra+ling attack could probably kill your third and you. By "well", I mean pro level skill. I as a master zerg and think I will definately fall to this stra executed by similar level P as I don't think i can kill/deny your third effectively, but imagining having pro level skill, it is not too hard to beat it even it is pro level P. Yeah I guess I am just like "gotta see it to believe it, pics or didn't happen!!lols" In the game I posted versus the ling/baneling, I defended terribly, lost 2 nexus and a ton of probes, but still won. I think while a pro could have attacked in a more optimal manner, and pro could have also defended in a more optimal manner. Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game. Bro, I understood your point the first time, you don't need to reword it. I just simply think your wrong. You have no evidence, and I have very little (a lot of amateur replays, and amateur experience.) Nobody knows for sure, of course.
comprehension ftw.
|
On May 03 2012 12:32 Fogetaboudit wrote:Your arguments boil down to "well he could have played better, doesn't count" I never said my replays "prove" my style is viable at a pro level, I said this Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 18:54 Fogetaboudit wrote:Bro, I understood your point the first time, you don't need to reword it. I just simply think your wrong. You have no evidence, and I have very little (a lot of amateur replays, and amateur experience.) Nobody knows for sure, of course.
comprehension ftw.
Okay. Do you want to play a few games? Posting replays against gold leaguers who make tons of mistakes doesn't really mean much.
|
On May 03 2012 12:37 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 12:32 Fogetaboudit wrote:Your arguments boil down to "well he could have played better, doesn't count" you consider this a game that proves your style is viable? I never said my replays "prove" my style is viable at a pro level, I said this On May 02 2012 18:54 Fogetaboudit wrote:Bro, I understood your point the first time, you don't need to reword it. I just simply think your wrong. You have no evidence, and I have very little (a lot of amateur replays, and amateur experience.) Nobody knows for sure, of course.
comprehension ftw. Okay. Do you want to play a few games? Posting replays against gold leaguers who make tons of mistakes doesn't really mean much.
the first replay is against a GM afaik. Sure we can play a few.
|
ophidian.737 on AM server
|
On May 03 2012 12:41 oOOoOphidian wrote:
ophidian.737 on AM server
thanks for the games,
hope you learned something from repeated fails at breaking my third. It's not as easy as it seems...
I learned vs a 3 hatch hydra you need to be careful and overdefend.
|
As I said, you should play against tang's all-ins. The build is extremely vulnerable before your voidrays pop (as they are unusually late for SG builds) and before your mothership pops. Infestor/Ling timing is easily the hardest thing for you to deal with, though hydra can be decent (zenio style in particular).
|
Well, I'm not familiar with every all-in, but I know cannons are pretty good.
|
You will never be able to determine whether this style is viable at higher levels, unless someone actually tries it out against higher level zergs. It's just pointless to say "ur opponent was horrble lol", or "dis wud die to (insert zerg push here)". You can say what you think, but just don't say it like it's a universal fact, unless you tried it a few times and can post the replays. Hopefully we can get some feedback concluded from experience instead of (overanalysed) theory-crafting.
|
On May 03 2012 15:34 PaNiCterrran wrote:
You will never be able to determine whether this style is viable at higher levels, unless someone actually tries it out against higher level zergs. It's just pointless to say "ur opponent was horrble lol", or "dis wud die to (insert zerg push here)". You can say what you think, but just don't say it like it's a universal fact, unless you tried it a few times and can post the replays. Hopefully we can get some feedback concluded from experience instead of (overanalysed) theory-crafting.
+38
|
Nice you had time to watch the reps ^^ I´m definitely going to continue playing this stlye We will see where it leads.
Greetings.
|
On May 03 2012 21:15 How2getMaster wrote:Nice you had time to watch the reps ^^ I´m definitely going to continue playing this stlye We will see where it leads. Greetings.
I think its important to mix in at least 1 scouting phoenix, but other than that I still believe skytoss is entirely viable as an opening and throughout a Macro game. GL to you!
|
What that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. You acted like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player.
I showed you multiple things that crush this build and attempted a few more that I had no experience with and every time I tried something that I didn't quite do properly I was still on 6 bases or more to 3 every time and they all would go like this if it was worth the time to do so: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fHYnx.jpg)
I should also mention that the OP was ridiculously BM despite being willing to play quite a few games to prove the point... I recommend nobody else waste their time.
For anyone curious, a reactive 3 hatch hydra ling was the easiest counter, while 3 hatch muta (my preferred response on ladder) does the expected amount of economic damage to let continued pushes work. Never got around to using an infestor/ling timing, but with only 3 void rays out at that time you can do the math.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rBecy.jpg)
|
On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player.
I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes.
There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT.
|
It seems to me this strategy would get destroyed just like the build MC did against DRG in the GSL Arena fairly recently. Motherships, VRs, and some Carriers with mass cannons. All DRG had to do was use mass zerglings, a few infestors, and a LOT of corruptors (which counter every unit you are proposing to use). Zerglings are also nearly impossible to kill with VRs once they have range. The cannons you use can be whittled down, and a trade for maybe 20 lings to get into a base and destroy production is worth it for sure. I just don't think this is viable.
Maybe if you went more in depth about resource production, tech switching, and harassment capabilities, I could be swayed. Maybe.
|
On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT.
That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this.
|
On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this.
Ah, I see.
His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/Screenshot2012-05-0209_28_37.jpg)
