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On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
What that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. You acted like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player.
I showed you multiple things that crush this build and attempted a few more that I had no experience with and every time I tried something that I didn't quite do properly I was still on 6 bases or more to 3 every time and they all would go like this if it was worth the time to do so:
I should also mention that the OP was ridiculously BM despite being willing to play quite a few games to prove the point... I recommend nobody else waste their time.
For anyone curious, a reactive 3 hatch hydra ling was the easiest counter, while 3 hatch muta (my preferred response on ladder) does the expected amount of economic damage to let continued pushes work. Never got around to using an infestor/ling timing, but with only 3 void rays out at that time you can do the math.
LOL, you took a screenshot from the other game ^^ You broke my fourth with infested terrans because my detection wasnt up in time.
Stop playing stupid, you got owned in every game except for 2?, this win was a silly one that could have been avoided) and your other win was a hydra timing in which i defended rather poorly and was out of position. You failed to decisively break the build and either lost miserably while rage quitting, or won because of silly mistakes on my part.
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On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this. Ah, I see. His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind.
I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game.
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lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pE2PH.jpg)
You "don't want to do it to me again"
http://drop.sc/171090
rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol.
stop playing stupid and misleading everyone
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On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:except you ragequit every game except for 2? You claimed you "didnt want to do it to me again" as I trucked your army. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone http://drop.sc/171090You have 130 supply here after your main army is decimated, lol, you ragequit but claim to be doing me a favor. Do everyone a favor and go away. + Show Spoiler +
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost.
Anyway, I talked about a build someone used against me a while ago on ladder that was similar, here it is: http://drop.sc/171222
If you want to do mass void rays against a 3 hatch zerg, that opener is a lot better as it gets a much faster third and better production, though he ended up losing to mutalisks he made quite a few mistakes that made it pretty lopsided when it shouldn't have been.
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On May 04 2012 00:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this. Ah, I see. His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind. I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game.
This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating. Bear in mind that almost all Protoss builds in PvZ either can't get a third up or have a lot of trouble doing so. If this build can reliably get a third up, but has trouble keeping a zerg off of however many other bases a zerg wants - all that means is that it isn't a 2-base allin (which is what wins/loses most PvZ matches these days).
Were there 50+ minute games you actually played out where you actually killed him? Or did you just leave because you were "pretty sure you could".
On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading. You "don't want to do it to me again" http://drop.sc/171090rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone
Posts like this make me hope you're wrong anyway. Sarcastic statements and accusations are only useful on reality TV.
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On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:except you ragequit every game except for 2? You claimed you "didnt want to do it to me again" as I trucked your army. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone http://drop.sc/171090You have 130 supply here after your main army is decimated, lol, you ragequit but claim to be doing me a favor. Do everyone a favor and go away. + Show Spoiler + You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost. Anyway, I talked about a build someone used against me a while ago on ladder that was similar, here it is: http://drop.sc/171222If you want to do mass void rays against a 3 hatch zerg, that opener is a lot better as it gets a much faster third and better production, though he ended up losing to mutalisks he made quite a few mistakes that made it pretty lopsided when it shouldn't have been.
I checked the replay just to make sure your lying, again. I'm suprised at how much you literally make up, especially when the replay is right here.
http://drop.sc/171090
On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost.
WRONG -
When you ragequit I have 3 mining bases (not 1), and you have 4 (not 6). I even numbered them for you! All of your infestors have about half enery, some are much lower (not full).
![[image loading]](http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq47/andrewmboccia/lol.jpg)
Anyhow, I'm trying to actually work on my build, and improve my theoretical understanding of the game. You just want to be an angry BM player who rages out for little to no reason. It's quite clear to me now that you never intended to help me hammer out this build, you just wanted to look like a wise guy on Team Liquid, lol. You blow your wins out of proportion, and then any game that I had a decisive advantage in you would just ragequit claiming to want to avoid a long game, lol.
time to gtfo.
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On May 04 2012 00:28 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this. Ah, I see. His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind. I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game. This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating. Bear in mind that almost all Protoss builds in PvZ either can't get a third up or have a lot of trouble doing so. If this build can reliably get a third up, but has trouble keeping a zerg off of however many other bases a zerg wants - all that means is that it isn't a 2-base allin (which is what wins/loses most PvZ matches these days). Were there 50+ minute games you actually played out where you actually killed him? Or did you just leave because you were "pretty sure you could". Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading. You "don't want to do it to me again" http://drop.sc/171090rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone Posts like this make me hope you're wrong anyway. Sarcastic statements and accusations are only useful on reality TV.
The first game we played I played out and it took 53 minutes because he cannoned up one base despite losing everything else. I ended up morphing brood lords and he finally left. There were quite likely over 50 spore crawlers being pushed toward that base, which is why it took so long. A lot like that other game he posted where he lost, except that zerg was less careful, but better at using corrupter/infestor to engage.
I'm 100% confident any zerg on 6+ bases can beat this strategy every time, though it is likely to take quite a while. Just get Corrupter/Infestor and a small number of Brood Lords, pushing forward with dozens of spore crawlers. That is why I didn't play out any other games that went to that stage. All I can say is this is the protoss version of avilo turtle, where you can't win the game at any point, but your opponent can't kill you quickly and if they try they might throw away the game.
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I believe 3 hatch with many hydras and some infestors would be the best counter to this build. I have played vs mass void ray a lot in custom games and air units don't really cut it. Funnily enough infestor + mass queen would also work, especially on small maps. Fungals prevent micro, break cloak and do damage, it is the perfect spell vs void ray mothership while queens do quite good dps vs air and with their transfuse survive quite well.
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On May 04 2012 00:41 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:28 Treehead wrote:On May 04 2012 00:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this. Ah, I see. His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind. I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game. This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating. Bear in mind that almost all Protoss builds in PvZ either can't get a third up or have a lot of trouble doing so. If this build can reliably get a third up, but has trouble keeping a zerg off of however many other bases a zerg wants - all that means is that it isn't a 2-base allin (which is what wins/loses most PvZ matches these days). Were there 50+ minute games you actually played out where you actually killed him? Or did you just leave because you were "pretty sure you could". On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading. You "don't want to do it to me again" http://drop.sc/171090rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone Posts like this make me hope you're wrong anyway. Sarcastic statements and accusations are only useful on reality TV. The first game we played I played out and it took 53 minutes because he cannoned up one base despite losing everything else. I ended up morphing brood lords and he finally left. There were quite likely over 50 spore crawlers being pushed toward that base, which is why it took so long. A lot like that other game he posted where he lost, except that zerg was less careful, but better at using corrupter/infestor to engage. I'm 100% confident any zerg on 6+ bases can beat this strategy every time, though it is likely to take quite a while. Just get Corrupter/Infestor and a small number of Brood Lords, pushing forward with dozens of spore crawlers. That is why I didn't play out any other games that went to that stage. All I can say is this is the protoss version of avilo turtle, where you can't win the game at any point, but your opponent can't kill you quickly and if they try they might throw away the game.
Yeah, I feel like only going voids is a bit silly. How about a modified version adding HTs after you get a good dozen or so voids? I know VR/Carrier/MShip/HT tends to be a good endgame comp. And keep in mind that the base deficit is only in place for as long as zerg is able to keep protoss from making pushes against them. Slow protoss armies have one big difference in comparison with slow terran armies: slow terran armies can be counterattacked. Slow protoss armies have recall, so they can kill your army, work on a base while sending the MShip home - and then be in position for a counterattack.
Having played against the pure void style - does this seem better? worse?
@Forgetaboutit: If you want your style to be popular (which I'm guessing you do, since you've posted in like 3-4 different threads linking back to this one), your best bet is probably to take the high road and highlight the cogent points of your strategy and not to let your thread devolve into mudslinging. As I said above, if people want drama, they watch reality TV - this type of thread is for posting strategy. There's a real and legitimate disparity between the perceived power of this build between you and oOOoOphidian. The way to resolve that is through games and strategic commentary - not name-calling and "gtfo".
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On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 00:41 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 Treehead wrote:On May 04 2012 00:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:58 oOOoOphidian wrote:On May 03 2012 23:44 Treehead wrote:On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
what that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. you act like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player. I must admit - I'm surprised the build can hold up for 53 minutes. There's nothing wrong with playing for long games if you can win in long games. Look at TvT. That's more because I'm overly cautious and never went for killing blows than because this is good strategy. It is a lot like how someone in bronze league cannoning up one base and massing void rays can survive for a long time despite their opponent having all the other bases. It's not that you can ever actually win, it's just that it takes forever to kill you. Most players better than I are more capable of staging attacks and trading units properly. I will say that the mothership makes it somewhat tricky to engage, but that's why stephano literally just sacrifices a ton of corrupters to kill that off whenever he faces stuff like this. Ah, I see. His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind. I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game. This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating. Bear in mind that almost all Protoss builds in PvZ either can't get a third up or have a lot of trouble doing so. If this build can reliably get a third up, but has trouble keeping a zerg off of however many other bases a zerg wants - all that means is that it isn't a 2-base allin (which is what wins/loses most PvZ matches these days). Were there 50+ minute games you actually played out where you actually killed him? Or did you just leave because you were "pretty sure you could". On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading. You "don't want to do it to me again" http://drop.sc/171090rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol. stop playing stupid and misleading everyone Posts like this make me hope you're wrong anyway. Sarcastic statements and accusations are only useful on reality TV. The first game we played I played out and it took 53 minutes because he cannoned up one base despite losing everything else. I ended up morphing brood lords and he finally left. There were quite likely over 50 spore crawlers being pushed toward that base, which is why it took so long. A lot like that other game he posted where he lost, except that zerg was less careful, but better at using corrupter/infestor to engage. I'm 100% confident any zerg on 6+ bases can beat this strategy every time, though it is likely to take quite a while. Just get Corrupter/Infestor and a small number of Brood Lords, pushing forward with dozens of spore crawlers. That is why I didn't play out any other games that went to that stage. All I can say is this is the protoss version of avilo turtle, where you can't win the game at any point, but your opponent can't kill you quickly and if they try they might throw away the game. Yeah, I feel like only going voids is a bit silly. How about a modified version adding HTs after you get a good dozen or so voids? I know VR/Carrier/MShip/HT tends to be a good endgame comp. And keep in mind that the base deficit is only in place for as long as zerg is able to keep protoss from making pushes against them. Slow protoss armies have one big difference in comparison with slow terran armies: slow terran armies can be counterattacked. Slow protoss armies have recall, so they can kill your army, work on a base while sending the MShip home - and then be in position for a counterattack. Having played against the pure void style - does this seem better? worse?
The idea is to establish a third with a composition that the zerg cant really trade with in the earlygame. After this period I believe you can branch out in many directions. I have been messing around with different lategame compositions, normally on 4 base is when I will try and throw up lots of different tech.
You make a great point about the base defecit. This is the exact reason our friendly Zerg ragequit. I killed two of his bases pretty easily and would have eventually gotten around to mining them myself, I was also getting additional tech.
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I like this strategy! it is interesting and not "standard". A big problem would be the infestor + anything AA. Maybe make some templars for feedback. I will try it out anyways. Good job tipping me off 
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On May 04 2012 01:08 Opeasy wrote:I like this strategy! it is interesting and not "standard". A big problem would be the infestor + anything AA. Maybe make some templars for feedback. I will try it out anyways. Good job tipping me off
Thats right, mass infestor/corruptor is definitely the max that you cannot really beat with pure air, unless you get a great engagement or something. Even just adding a few (1-4) colossus can do wonders against the infestors, but there are lots of options, and I'm sure HT's can work very well and are very good for their supply, which is really important.
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On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:
@Forgetaboutit: If you want your style to be popular (which I'm guessing you do, since you've posted in like 3-4 different threads linking back to this one), your best bet is probably to take the high road and highlight the cogent points of your strategy and not to let your thread devolve into mudslinging. As I said above, if people want drama, they watch reality TV - this type of thread is for posting strategy. There's a real and legitimate disparity between the perceived power of this build between you and oOOoOphidian. The way to resolve that is through games and strategic commentary - not name-calling and "gtfo".
I agree wholeheartedly, but like everyone I just have a finite amount of patience.
He got under my skin when I realized he was playing me just for show and to try and make me look bad, not to work through the build, like you mention. While this wouldn't even be that bad, he goes in my thread and just strait up lies a bunch, lol, which is unacceptable, imo.
FWIW there are 4 lies in this sentence. That has to be some sort of record, haha -
+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:I showed you multiple things that crush this build and attempted a few more that I had no experience with and every time I tried something that I didn't quite do properly I was still on 6 bases or more to 3 every time and they all would go like this if it was worth the time to do so:
Still, an argument can be made for not feeding the troll 
On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating.
You are a smart guy as this is 1000% accurate.
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Despite all of the put downs you've been getting fogetaboudit, I must say thank you for this strat! This is my 1st post ever on TL, I always read the forums but have never signed up, but I felt that thankful to you for this build. I was previously having a really hard time keeping the Zerg under control and preventing them from doing the popular "Stephano roach" build. Im no great player but I knew if I didn't do some sort of big econ damage to the Zerg by 11-13mins I was in for a loss. So far after doing this build, not a single loss to Zerg! Granted I'm only low gold-high silver, but still getting matched up with a Zerg is no longer the death sentence as it used to be, all in all just wanted to say thank you, and I hope your tweaking on this build makes it better than what you started with in the OP.
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On May 04 2012 01:47 Chaser808 wrote:
Despite all of the put downs you've been getting fogetaboudit, I must say thank you for this strat! This is my 1st post ever on TL, I always read the forums but have never signed up, but I felt that thankful to you for this build. I was previously having a really hard time keeping the Zerg under control and preventing them from doing the popular "Stephano roach" build. Im no great player but I knew if I didn't do some sort of big econ damage to the Zerg by 11-13mins I was in for a loss. So far after doing this build, not a single loss to Zerg! Granted I'm only low gold-high silver, but still getting matched up with a Zerg is no longer the death sentence as it used to be, all in all just wanted to say thank you, and I hope your tweaking on this build makes it better than what you started with in the OP.
Thank you for the post
I'm so happy you are enjoying it.
Made my day <3
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Is there any Build Order listed for this?
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On May 04 2012 01:53 Fogetaboudit wrote:Thank you for the post I'm so happy you are enjoying it. Made my day <3
Yeah dude listen, I mean some people are saying this build isn't legit, but I don't really understand that. Genius's FFE into Stargate is legitimate, but it doesn't work all the time.
I don't know how well this works on the pro level, but it's worked for me. Not only that, but where you attack, when you attack, how you split your Void Rays in fungal-defense, what you transition into, and how you utilize recall all affect the outcome of the game. So it's not like the level of execution doesn't affect it.
Just because it doesn't work all the time doesn't mean it's not legit. It's got potential, even if it's just for establishing a third.
Also, to continue what you said at the beginning of the OP, I think to establish a third you NEED sentries. Void Rays, Cannons, Mothership, and good Force Fields can help you establish a third. I suggest you put that in the thread, because it helps with ling run-bys, roach/hydra, etc.
But yeah, I sure as hell never thought of this before, so nice job, as I said before. (Masters Protoss here, to add some background)
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So I actually watched a few replays and this build is incredibly weak. You have no means of reinforcing early as you're only on 1-2 gates and 1 stargate. You lose to any major attack that is not roaches (and if your opponent has good control, multitasking and splitting up forces while still managing them-abilities perhaps even to roaches). Fast lings, hydrae, banelings, nydus worms, drop tech, ...,
Not only this but your endgame composition is extremely vulnerable to mass infestors (the Ophidian guy in one of your replays has extremely poor control and awareness and generally seemed like a poor player). Your answer for this appears to be Mass Recall, which is great, but it means you are never able to push the zerg and you are extremely vulnerable when you do not have enough energy for a vortex. You have to ask yourself:
1. How are you going to deal with a Zerg who mass fungals your army, when you do not have mass recall?
Right now there is no way to deal with this. In other words, you are unable to move out with all of your void rays unless you have mass recall. If you do absolutely no damage and get caught by a fungal immediately, you have just lost however long it takes for a mothership to regenerate 100 energy, allowing the zerg to do as he pleases.
2. How are you going to deal with a Zerg attacking you with mass Infestor/Hydrae? What do you do when you are trying to get your 4th base (or defend it) and he shows up with 10 overseers and a maxed out infestor/hydrae army (with a billion resources in the bank, too, probably)?
Again, there is no answer for this either.
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On May 04 2012 02:32 KrakInDub wrote:
Is there any Build Order listed for this?
From the original post:
+ Show Spoiler +I Forge Fast expand into double stargate (yah nothing new here)
But this is my variation to the build, and it's original as far as I can tell. There are a few main points,
1 - I rush to a DEFENSIVE mothership, and this is used to help establish and defend a third
2 - I mineral sink into MASS CANNONS! EVERYWHERE! (no supply! instead of gateways and gateway units)
There are guides to both FFE and stargate PvZ play already in stickies or searchable in the strategy section if you don't know how to execute them.
Good stuff. I'll be trying this out on ladder later today.
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On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote:
So I actually watched a few replays and this build is incredibly weak. You have no means of reinforcing early as you're only on 1-2 gates and 1 stargate. You lose to any major attack that is not roaches (and if your opponent has good control, multitasking and splitting up forces while still managing them-abilities perhaps even to roaches). Fast lings, hydrae, banelings, nydus worms, drop tech, ...,
Reinforcing is not even always necessary in a Macro build. I'm not really sure what your getting at. When IMMVP hides an extra Macro orbital in his main and he is working off 3 rax adding 2 techlabs and 2 ebays and the works he has no way to "reinforce" the dude is skimping hardcore on production. While it can be punished for a win on occasion, it's not like its autowin for the toss cus he has an extra orbital. I hope this metaphor makes sense.
I'm not sure what you mean by "early" I eventually get a second SG as soon as I can afford it, also I've been playing around with some light 2 base timings to pressure the zerg with VoidRay/zealot, but this really slows my third so it's tough to say if it's worth it or not.
I've talked about how to handle all of the different pressures that you mentioned as best as I can, in various places ITT. I eventually pull all of these answers together so people stop asking about how to deflect the various pressures.
On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote:Not only this but your endgame composition is extremely vulnerable to mass infestors (the Ophidian guy in one of your replays has extremely poor control and awareness and generally seemed like a poor player). Your answer for this appears to be Mass Recall, which is great, but it means you are never able to push the zerg and you are extremely vulnerable when you do not have enough energy for a vortex. You have to ask yourself:
1. How are you going to deal with a Zerg who mass fungals your army, when you do not have mass recall?
Right now there is no way to deal with this. In other words, you are unable to move out with all of your void rays unless you have mass recall. If you do absolutely no damage and get caught by a fungal immediately, you have just lost however long it takes for a mothership to regenerate 100 energy, allowing the zerg to do as he pleases.
2. How are you going to deal with a Zerg attacking you with mass Infestor/Hydrae? What do you do when you are trying to get your 4th base (or defend it) and he shows up with 10 overseers and a maxed out infestor/hydrae army (with a billion resources in the bank, too, probably)?
Again, there is no answer for this either.
He doesn't have poor control, he is a pro with all the answers (who struggles against an admittedly average amateur) :D
1. Well, don't poke around on the map if chain fungals are present, obviously. If he is sieging your base with a few broodlords and a strong max of infestor/corruptor and you were not able to switch up your composition to deal with it, then it's probably GG I guess If I lose a Macro game, this is normally how.
Yes if you get caught by a Fungal when attempting to harass, and you do no damage, it sucks. I'm not sure why your mentioning this. It's sort of like saying "Why would you try a stim drop against Protoss, he might snipe your dropship" Harass is by no means some sort of guarantee... life goes on.
2. Infestor Hydra is surprisingly easy to deal with in the late midgame (after 3 base) Hydras off creep are just gawdawful. There are several ways to micro against it, imo. Approaching from the most optimal angle is easy, vortexing one side of the army, and about ~30% of the Hydras really does wonders. Hydras are too slow to all run into the vortex.
Thanks for the post
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EPT
