[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page 9

On May 03 2012 23:28 oOOoOphidian wrote:
What that screenshot you used doesn't show is that the first game took 53 minutes because you literally just spammed cannons on one base when I had every single other base on the map. You acted like we should have practiced 5 different 50 minute games just because you want to play In Utter Darkness with another player.

I showed you multiple things that crush this build and attempted a few more that I had no experience with and every time I tried something that I didn't quite do properly I was still on 6 bases or more to 3 every time and they all would go like this if it was worth the time to do so:

I should also mention that the OP was ridiculously BM despite being willing to play quite a few games to prove the point... I recommend nobody else waste their time.

For anyone curious, a reactive 3 hatch hydra ling was the easiest counter, while 3 hatch muta (my preferred response on ladder) does the expected amount of economic damage to let continued pushes work. Never got around to using an infestor/ling timing, but with only 3 void rays out at that time you can do the math.

On May 04 2012 00:06 Treehead wrote:


Ah, I see.

His statement led me to believe he won some of the games you two played. If he's not beating you then nevermind.

On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:
except you ragequit every game except for 2?

You claimed you "didnt want to do it to me again" as I trucked your army.

stop playing stupid and misleading everyone

http://drop.sc/171090

You have 130 supply here after your main army is decimated, lol, you ragequit but claim to be doing me a favor. Do everyone a favor and go away.

+ Show Spoiler +

On May 04 2012 00:10 oOOoOphidian wrote:

I lost a game on Entombed Valley due to poor execution of the stephano style, handling a small 2 zealot harass poorly and then fumbling with a low supply hydra/roach drop. Every other game I just left if he started turtling or got a third up / I fucked up my opener, simply to avoid 50 minute games. Every game except the Entombed Valley game I was on 6+ bases with 80-90 drones and all tech. The easiest way to grind away at the turtle is with mass zerglings and infested terrans, which is how I won the first game.

On May 04 2012 00:16 Fogetaboudit wrote:
lol, you didn't leave to avoid a 50 minute game, you left after your main army was decimated. Stop playing dumb and/or misleading.



You "don't want to do it to me again"

http://drop.sc/171090

rofl, yeah. You are in control of this game for sure... 130 supply vs my Max. RAGEquit, lol.

stop playing stupid and misleading everyone

On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:

You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost.

Anyway, I talked about a build someone used against me a while ago on ladder that was similar, here it is: http://drop.sc/171222
If you want to do mass void rays against a 3 hatch zerg, that opener is a lot better as it gets a much faster third and better production, though he ended up losing to mutalisks he made quite a few mistakes that made it pretty lopsided when it shouldn't have been.

On May 04 2012 00:22 oOOoOphidian wrote:
You realize I had 6 bases and 7k/2k banked with 25 full energy infestors, right? You were mining one base and cannoning it up, just like the first game you lost.

On May 04 2012 00:28 Treehead wrote:


This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating. Bear in mind that almost all Protoss builds in PvZ either can't get a third up or have a lot of trouble doing so. If this build can reliably get a third up, but has trouble keeping a zerg off of however many other bases a zerg wants - all that means is that it isn't a 2-base allin (which is what wins/loses most PvZ matches these days).

Were there 50+ minute games you actually played out where you actually killed him? Or did you just leave because you were "pretty sure you could".



Posts like this make me hope you're wrong anyway. Sarcastic statements and accusations are only useful on reality TV.

On May 04 2012 00:41 oOOoOphidian wrote:

The first game we played I played out and it took 53 minutes because he cannoned up one base despite losing everything else. I ended up morphing brood lords and he finally left. There were quite likely over 50 spore crawlers being pushed toward that base, which is why it took so long. A lot like that other game he posted where he lost, except that zerg was less careful, but better at using corrupter/infestor to engage.

I'm 100% confident any zerg on 6+ bases can beat this strategy every time, though it is likely to take quite a while. Just get Corrupter/Infestor and a small number of Brood Lords, pushing forward with dozens of spore crawlers. That is why I didn't play out any other games that went to that stage. All I can say is this is the protoss version of avilo turtle, where you can't win the game at any point, but your opponent can't kill you quickly and if they try they might throw away the game.

On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:


Yeah, I feel like only going voids is a bit silly. How about a modified version adding HTs after you get a good dozen or so voids? I know VR/Carrier/MShip/HT tends to be a good endgame comp. And keep in mind that the base deficit is only in place for as long as zerg is able to keep protoss from making pushes against them. Slow protoss armies have one big difference in comparison with slow terran armies: slow terran armies can be counterattacked. Slow protoss armies have recall, so they can kill your army, work on a base while sending the MShip home - and then be in position for a counterattack.

Having played against the pure void style - does this seem better? worse?

On May 04 2012 01:08 Opeasy wrote:
I like this strategy! it is interesting and not "standard". A big problem would be the infestor + anything AA. Maybe make some templars for feedback. I will try it out anyways. Good job tipping me off

On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:
@Forgetaboutit: If you want your style to be popular (which I'm guessing you do, since you've posted in like 3-4 different threads linking back to this one), your best bet is probably to take the high road and highlight the cogent points of your strategy and not to let your thread devolve into mudslinging. As I said above, if people want drama, they watch reality TV - this type of thread is for posting strategy. There's a real and legitimate disparity between the perceived power of this build between you and oOOoOphidian. The way to resolve that is through games and strategic commentary - not name-calling and "gtfo".

On May 04 2012 01:03 Treehead wrote:This sounds like you lost a couple, he won a couple and then you left a lot if it looked like the game would go late (which is what he's going for). To me, this says you weren't actually interested in testing the strat - that you were only interested in gloating.

On May 04 2012 01:47 Chaser808 wrote:
Despite all of the put downs you've been getting fogetaboudit, I must say thank you for this strat! This is my 1st post ever on TL, I always read the forums but have never signed up, but I felt that thankful to you for this build. I was previously having a really hard time keeping the Zerg under control and preventing them from doing the popular "Stephano roach" build. Im no great player but I knew if I didn't do some sort of big econ damage to the Zerg by 11-13mins I was in for a loss. So far after doing this build, not a single loss to Zerg! Granted I'm only low gold-high silver, but still getting matched up with a Zerg is no longer the death sentence as it used to be, all in all just wanted to say thank you, and I hope your tweaking on this build makes it better than what you started with in the OP.

On May 04 2012 01:53 Fogetaboudit wrote:

Thank you for the post

I'm so happy you are enjoying it.

Made my day <3

On May 04 2012 02:32 KrakInDub wrote:
Is there any Build Order listed for this?

On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote:
So I actually watched a few replays and this build is incredibly weak. You have no means of reinforcing early as you're only on 1-2 gates and 1 stargate. You lose to any major attack that is not roaches (and if your opponent has good control, multitasking and splitting up forces while still managing them-abilities perhaps even to roaches). Fast lings, hydrae, banelings, nydus worms, drop tech, ...,

On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote:Not only this but your endgame composition is extremely vulnerable to mass infestors (the Ophidian guy in one of your replays has extremely poor control and awareness and generally seemed like a poor player). Your answer for this appears to be Mass Recall, which is great, but it means you are never able to push the zerg and you are extremely vulnerable when you do not have enough energy for a vortex. You have to ask yourself:

1. How are you going to deal with a Zerg who mass fungals your army, when you do not have mass recall?

Right now there is no way to deal with this. In other words, you are unable to move out with all of your void rays unless you have mass recall. If you do absolutely no damage and get caught by a fungal immediately, you have just lost however long it takes for a mothership to regenerate 100 energy, allowing the zerg to do as he pleases.

2. How are you going to deal with a Zerg attacking you with mass Infestor/Hydrae? What do you do when you are trying to get your 4th base (or defend it) and he shows up with 10 overseers and a maxed out infestor/hydrae army (with a billion resources in the bank, too, probably)?

Again, there is no answer for this either.