EPT[D] PvZ - Establishing third with Skytoss (viable?) - Page…
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
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Tommyth
Poland117 Posts
On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote: So I actually watched a few replays and this build is incredibly weak. You have no means of reinforcing early as you're only on 1-2 gates and 1 stargate. You lose to any major attack that is not roaches (and if your opponent has good control, multitasking and splitting up forces while still managing them-abilities perhaps even to roaches). Fast lings, hydrae, banelings, nydus worms, drop tech, ..., You watched the replays? No field-testing? Lings, banes, drops and nydus can be used effectively against every build provided u are not prepared. OP never said he's neglecting scouting, so I don't understand this point. Fast Hydrae are perfectly holdable (I actually tried it) with void ray - supported cannons, even without mothership (don't know what u exactly mean by fast hydrae). On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote: Not only this but your endgame composition is extremely vulnerable to mass infestors (the Ophidian guy in one of your replays has extremely poor control and awareness and generally seemed like a poor player). Your answer for this appears to be Mass Recall, which is great, but it means you are never able to push the zerg and you are extremely vulnerable when you do not have enough energy for a vortex. You have to ask yourself: Infestors are indeed very hard to deal when used defensively, but are slightly less useful offensively, as u have few rows of cannons shooting at everything that gets close to the fleet. Besides, HT. On May 04 2012 02:36 the p00n wrote: 1. How are you going to deal with a Zerg who mass fungals your army, when you do not have mass recall? Right now there is no way to deal with this. In other words, you are unable to move out with all of your void rays unless you have mass recall. If you do absolutely no damage and get caught by a fungal immediately, you have just lost however long it takes for a mothership to regenerate 100 energy, allowing the zerg to do as he pleases. 2. How are you going to deal with a Zerg attacking you with mass Infestor/Hydrae? What do you do when you are trying to get your 4th base (or defend it) and he shows up with 10 overseers and a maxed out infestor/hydrae army (with a billion resources in the bank, too, probably)? Again, there is no answer for this either. 1. OP said so many times NOT to move out when mass recall is not available... 2. Again, Few HT's behind cannons would melt this kind of composition... U sound like this build prohibits scouting and making anything that is not a void ray, mothership or cannon. Yes, mass void rays are absolutely beatable, so is any other strategy if u don't know how to react to your opponents actions... Few crucial mistakes that I made during my games and u definetely want to avoid: - don't make too many carriers in the end, 2-4 is enough, they do nice in distracting hydrae fire, but when carrier count matches VR's, the composition becomes suprisingly weak (interceptors die fast, can be NPed, easily focus fired). - remember that zerg can remax almost outright - its easier to win bit by bit rather than in one push, lock him on his current base count, be patient, | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 03:47 Th1rdEye wrote: If you played magic the gathering you would probably use a blue deck.. just sayin rofl I never played MTG but my friends are into it. had to do a quick google and I came up with this. + Show Spoiler + For the most part, blue likes to take it slow. It despises hasty actions and is also very big on deception, cloaking the truth and concealing its true motives. As the ruler of air and water, blue has always found a way to make its more aggressive creatures effective infiltrators through some form of evasion, typically flying. It also has a unique skill in the matters of time, usually reversing it by unsummoning things. Blue, as the color of intelligence, takes great pride in never running out of options. It loves to draw cards so that it always has a plan for what may come (ironically, Saviors of Kamigawa established large hands as being "wisdom," not intelligence). epic! | ||
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How2getMaster
Germany124 Posts
Today I played it on ladder once and it didn´t work out. I have to admit that I was not confident in only building Voids and that was the problem! In this game I lost because I saw him going only Hydra and I startet Colo tech but it would´ve way better to set up 5-6 stargates instead of just 3. So well I guess I learned from it that building anything but Voids is bad^^ I also didn´t harras verry well because of Taldarim haha  (So hard to harras main) http://drop.sc/171304 Greetings. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Tree0
United States1 Post
Also, you should try upgrading shields. It helps out your cannon hp and buffs up air defense as well. I saw in your replay you were at 2 0 3. Otherwise, this strat is great. Makes people type LOL when they lose haha love it | ||
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ssch
Austria14 Posts
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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ssch
Austria14 Posts
On April 30 2012 22:24 Fogetaboudit wrote: In small numbers you are absolutely correct, but we are trying to max out with this army, kinda like how 10 marauders beats 5 tanks but 30 marauders loses to 15 tanks (I'm not Terran but you understand what I'm saying) Void rays in large numbers are just absurd, they literally counter Hydras when they are stacked, especially off creep and engaging near edges. Infested terrans actually get mostly sniped up during the hatching.[/QUOTE] | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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kiklion
99 Posts
Personally, I won by dropping double spire, taking a fourth and fifth on Ohana LE. I made a set of mutas (~14) followed by corruptors. I hit the main, killing probes and an assimilator, pulled back and went back in with my corruptors waiting by the fourth. Soon as he pulled in his air units I Focus fired the mothership/carriers/voidrays with corruptors and mutas (1/1) Lost all of my units but he only had a few stalkers left. Kept trading similarly, but being ahead 2 bases and denying the fourth continually he ran out of economy. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 11:10 kiklion wrote: Recently played against this as zerg. It is extremely easy to scout it. One benefit is seeing 2 stargates can either be this, or a ~7 gate +1 ~9 minute timing. So the zerg can easily react 'wrong'. Personally, I won by dropping double spire, taking a fourth and fifth on Ohana LE. I made a set of mutas (~14) followed by corruptors. I hit the main, killing probes and an assimilator, pulled back and went back in with my corruptors waiting by the fourth. Soon as he pulled in his air units I Focus fired the mothership/carriers/voidrays with corruptors and mutas (1/1) Lost all of my units but he only had a few stalkers left. Kept trading similarly, but being ahead 2 bases and denying the fourth continually he ran out of economy. If he had stalkers he was doing it wrong. :D Seriously though, I like your opening and I think it's one of the best opening's versus this. However, I would argue that if the Toss has good enough execution, he can win versus double Spire. I don't think your strategy is much of a "hard counter," my buddy beat me using the same thing but I was not able to scout the Mutas, and took too much damage. He is also sick good at this game. I believe making a scouting Phoenix is important, especially if you are not facing any quick aggression against your third, and can't find where the gas is going. Trading often is very strong, because the airball gets strong in big numbers, similar to how Zerg behaves against mech, imo. Of course if the Protoss "overturtles" you are going to have an advantage as well. I think if both sides execute well, the next obstacle will be for the Protoss to establishing a fourth, without being too far behind. Thanks for your input, it sounds like you played well against it. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 05:11 ticklishmusic wrote: Just curious, could you post all the replays against oOOoOphidian? I'd like to watch them sometime and run a couple quick analyses with sc2gears and the like. I'd like to look at it as sort of a BoX. I'm not sure if this is the best idea, I would rather not feed the fire, to be honest. I'd rather just let it die out (unless he comes in here and starts talking more sh*t again, then I'll post all of them.) Suffice it to say we both won and lost games and my losses were due to a lot of stupid mistakes, (getting supply blocked, forgetting detection, etc) not much can be learned from them, and they are not that interesting anyways. However, if a mannered/respectful person of similar skill would like to help me work on this strategy I would be more than willing to play a pack of games for some in depth SC2 gears analysis, good idea! | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 07:17 Tree0 wrote: I found this build is vulnerable to early mutas when you have 3-4 voids and mothership isn't out yet. I started putting 1-2 cannons in my main mineral line if i was unable to scout. Also, you should try upgrading shields. It helps out your cannon hp and buffs up air defense as well. I saw in your replay you were at 2 0 3. Otherwise, this strat is great. Makes people type LOL when they lose haha love it Yeah I agree, I'm starting to think 100% reactive Phoenix is not entirely sufficient against a well played zerg, especially if they wait for a ton of gas before showing their hand. IMO you can make reactive Phoenix against like 10 mutas, but against 20 it gets pretty dangerous and your on thin ice. | ||
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gronnelg
Norway354 Posts
Does this strategy work because of the current meta game? i.e. would this work in a different metagame? e.g. would it be viable against early aggression, or greedy zerg play (going straight for ~80 drones)? | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 16:53 gronnelg wrote: This strategy seems interesting, and really different. I have a question though: Does this strategy work because of the current meta game? i.e. would this work in a different metagame? e.g. would it be viable against early aggression, or greedy zerg play (going straight for ~80 drones)? I think it has had an easier time winning a lot of games than it probably should because of the current metagame, but that doesn't mean its not viable. Unfortunately, winning game after game after game of opponents making a few roaches, this has slowed the process of identifying the weaknesses in the build, and that was a big reason for this post. After some dedicated practice I've noticed that drones strait into an overwhelming muta count (16+) can be a problem if you don't scout for it. Which is why I now suggest mixing in 1 phoenix to identify where the zergs gas is going (if you don't see anything with your VoidRay poke.) While I've lost to some early timing attacks, it has never been very decisive, and in each of these cases I have always been very unhappy with my execution in these games. (Late cannons, lazy scouting, bad micro, supply blocks, etc) I think the defensive potential of this build really shocks the people who try it. Against 80 drones, you've got yourself a macro game. There are of course no simple answers here, but getting your third/fourth should be easier, and you have a tech advantage, army advantage. and an econ disadvantage. It\s important to note that the zerg HAS to make some defense against mass Stargate, if they don't things can really spiral out of control. Also, I've been working on a +1 zealot + VoidRay light pressure to control the zergs drone count, however this slows my third a bit. I think there are a million variations to this strategy, but I think the main points of opening up with air, and a Mothership, and relying on some more cannons for defense, are incredibly powerful and underused/ not explored. | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
However, I do find this to be a quite fun tactics. I love the mineral dumping into cannons, knowing runbys will be difficult to manage - plus warpgate units simply eats your supply. And I love your ability to actually attack with your force without ever commiting since you can just recall. Weaknesses: Fungals and neural (on the mothership). No detection. Restriction in bases. Strengths: Mobility, strength, costefficiency, hit and run potential, strong defenses while getting your high tech army Basicly you get some things protoss usually don't. But then again. You're forcing yourself to play super defensive, so you'll be behind on workers and bases. | ||
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Fogetaboudit
United States232 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:10 Mentalizor wrote: Only engaging when Recall is ready will limit your harass/attack option alot. And as far as I can tell, you should die against a good zerg with good creepspread, who's taking expansions while going infestors. Sure, you've got replays - and sure, you can recall out of fungals. But if you're "only" on 3base, you'll eventually mine out. Once you do so you'll have to be the aggressor. And when you can't engage all his infestors, you're in big trouble. What would you do if he had a single ling burrowed where you'd take a 4th? No observer... You'd have to go pylon --> cannon --> and after the cannon finishes and the ling is dead, only then can you make your nexus, and by then he'll know the jig is up. However, I do find this to be a quite fun tactics. I love the mineral dumping into cannons, knowing runbys will be difficult to manage - plus warpgate units simply eats your supply. And I love your ability to actually attack with your force without ever commiting since you can just recall. Weaknesses: Fungals and neural (on the mothership). No detection. Restriction in bases. Strengths: Mobility, strength, costefficiency, hit and run potential, strong defenses while getting your high tech army Basicly you get some things protoss usually don't. But then again. You're forcing yourself to play super defensive, so you'll be behind on workers and bases. Please understand that this is not a "3 base all-in" its rather a "reliable way to secure 3 bases, and lead to a macro game" I've had 7 bases on Metropolis before (utilizing the easy splitmap, and islands) versus a zerg who starved on his 5-7 bases. The detection problem you mention kinda sucks, and it has hurt me before, lately I've been getting a Robo when on 3 base, just for observer, and in some games this leads to a really nice transition when on 4 base for double robo colossus, particularly if they are very infestor heavy. But imo your weaknesses, particularily about restriction in bases, are pretty accurate. For this reason, I think this strategy, while potentially viable on all maps, is defiantely stronger on certain maps. The easier it is to cut the map in half, the better. The more gas there is, the better. Islands are good, as well as space to fly with no ground support possible. Tal Darim like maps kinda suck, but Metropolis like maps are really really awesome. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
have you ever played vs ling hydra infestor nydus attack to kill your 3rd base? i am playing around with it, hitting at about 11:30-12:00 with 8-10 hydras, 4-6 infestors and lots of lings. think that would give you huge trouble establishing a 3rd. another thing: do you get a sentry? i think you´ll need at least one or will outright lose against the zenio 3 base ling bling all in. i like your overall plan going fast mothership and harrass with recall, but i think you´ll have to adapt and dont go mass VR on double stargate but add robo oder TC tech instead, so you dont die early on. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
It's more dangerous since you can't just recall it all, but on the other hand, Zerg won't know how/where to split his army, so if he messes up his split ( ex.: you split your voidrays 50/50% but he splits 30%/70% ) you can always recall the part of your army that is overwhelmed, while the other part does a lot of damage. | ||
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