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On May 04 2012 19:14 Decendos wrote:
how do you deal with mass infestor neural parasiting your VRs so that they dont get recalled?
have you ever played vs ling hydra infestor nydus attack to kill your 3rd base? i am playing around with it, hitting at about 11:30-12:00 with 8-10 hydras, 4-6 infestors and lots of lings. think that would give you huge trouble establishing a 3rd.
another thing: do you get a sentry? i think you´ll need at least one or will outright lose against the zenio 3 base ling bling all in.
i like your overall plan going fast mothership and harrass with recall, but i think you´ll have to adapt and dont go mass VR on double stargate but add robo oder TC tech instead, so you dont die early on.
I have not dealt with mass Neuro from a good player, yet. I think it's dangerous an unreliable to micro, since your infestors can get targeted down and it can spiral out of control quickly. Still, you make a good point and someone else theorycrafted this earlier... if the zerg player controls just right, it's potentially one of the most brutal counters. I think if caught off guard you just have to sacrafice a few of the units that are Neuro'd, recall, and add more anti-infestor to your army (carrier/ colossus/ HT/ gateway stuff) Also, it's not like I'm looking to make mass void rays against mass infestor, the Void Rays are just sort of all purpose early/mid game and fit well in any lategame composition, and make some sick harass, but the more infestors I scout all game, the more anti-infestor I'll be producing (carrier)
Hydras with a Rally Nydus are underused imo, and this would make all of the timings much tighter, I don't think enough players incorporate this into their play. I couldn't say for sure of course how much trouble this would cause. All I know is that so far Hydras have been surprisingly easy to deal with. Mixing in some infestors and Lings to tank makes things interesting.
I think a 3 base Baneling/Ling all in can be held, and comes down to the execution of both players. Its a very dirty/messy game, you lose a lot of stuff on the ground, but nothing in the air. And like you said, its an all in.. so if you ever stabilize you have an easy game.
I of course agree that this needs to be adopted/ optimized like any build, and I'm happy you like the overall plan.
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On May 04 2012 19:19 Nyast wrote:
Have you considered splitting your voidrayball to do multi pronged harass/attacks ?
It's more dangerous since you can't just recall it all, but on the other hand, Zerg won't know how/where to split his army, so if he messes up his split ( ex.: you split your voidrays 50/50% but he splits 30%/70% ) you can always recall the part of your army that is overwhelmed, while the other part does a lot of damage.
Good Idea, I never thought of this to be honest.
This is one of the points that many people overlook about the potential of this kind of strategy. Everybody says lol 1A ball, but there is a sick amount of optimizing that can be done with good control and professional play.
Personally I have 2 army control groups, and one of them is for the MS, so this would be tough for me.
I REALLY need to get comfortable with using more control groups, lol.
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On May 04 2012 11:28 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 11:10 kiklion wrote:
Recently played against this as zerg. It is extremely easy to scout it. One benefit is seeing 2 stargates can either be this, or a ~7 gate +1 ~9 minute timing. So the zerg can easily react 'wrong'.
Personally, I won by dropping double spire, taking a fourth and fifth on Ohana LE. I made a set of mutas (~14) followed by corruptors. I hit the main, killing probes and an assimilator, pulled back and went back in with my corruptors waiting by the fourth. Soon as he pulled in his air units I Focus fired the mothership/carriers/voidrays with corruptors and mutas (1/1) Lost all of my units but he only had a few stalkers left. Kept trading similarly, but being ahead 2 bases and denying the fourth continually he ran out of economy. If he had stalkers he was doing it wrong. :D Seriously though, I like your opening and I think it's one of the best opening's versus this. However, I would argue that if the Toss has good enough execution, he can win versus double Spire. I don't think your strategy is much of a "hard counter," my buddy beat me using the same thing but I was not able to scout the Mutas, and took too much damage. He is also sick good at this game. I believe making a scouting Phoenix is important, especially if you are not facing any quick aggression against your third, and can't find where the gas is going. Trading often is very strong, because the airball gets strong in big numbers, similar to how Zerg behaves against mech, imo. Of course if the Protoss "overturtles" you are going to have an advantage as well. I think if both sides execute well, the next obstacle will be for the Protoss to establishing a fourth, without being too far behind. Thanks for your input, it sounds like you played well against it.
Actually, he didn't have stalkers when I engaged. He warped them in during the fight. His army was just carriers/void/mothership and sentry.
I definitely think that this can be used to grab a third, but offensive options are limited. Just as a FFE leads to a 2v3 base, I feel this strat to grab a third will force it to a 3v5 base.
Corruptors counter all air, at least in small to medium numbers. The mothership isn't scary because you don't have the gas for the archon toilet, so if you get a vortex out, zerg sends all of his army into it.
On the other hand, Ohana layout is poor for mothership defense against air. Your third is directly across from the natural so the distance third to main is large. If it was more of a V shape it would be better for the slow units.
~edit Also he didn't have many cannons. For a build that is supposed to be gas starved I believe, having cannons would have greatly changed the air fight over his base. Maybe he only placed them at third/natural, I would need to check replay to check it out.
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On May 05 2012 04:03 kiklion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 11:28 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 04 2012 11:10 kiklion wrote:
Recently played against this as zerg. It is extremely easy to scout it. One benefit is seeing 2 stargates can either be this, or a ~7 gate +1 ~9 minute timing. So the zerg can easily react 'wrong'.
Personally, I won by dropping double spire, taking a fourth and fifth on Ohana LE. I made a set of mutas (~14) followed by corruptors. I hit the main, killing probes and an assimilator, pulled back and went back in with my corruptors waiting by the fourth. Soon as he pulled in his air units I Focus fired the mothership/carriers/voidrays with corruptors and mutas (1/1) Lost all of my units but he only had a few stalkers left. Kept trading similarly, but being ahead 2 bases and denying the fourth continually he ran out of economy. If he had stalkers he was doing it wrong. :D Seriously though, I like your opening and I think it's one of the best opening's versus this. However, I would argue that if the Toss has good enough execution, he can win versus double Spire. I don't think your strategy is much of a "hard counter," my buddy beat me using the same thing but I was not able to scout the Mutas, and took too much damage. He is also sick good at this game. I believe making a scouting Phoenix is important, especially if you are not facing any quick aggression against your third, and can't find where the gas is going. Trading often is very strong, because the airball gets strong in big numbers, similar to how Zerg behaves against mech, imo. Of course if the Protoss "overturtles" you are going to have an advantage as well. I think if both sides execute well, the next obstacle will be for the Protoss to establishing a fourth, without being too far behind. Thanks for your input, it sounds like you played well against it. Actually, he didn't have stalkers when I engaged. He warped them in during the fight. His army was just carriers/void/mothership and sentry. I definitely think that this can be used to grab a third, but offensive options are limited. Just as a FFE leads to a 2v3 base, I feel this strat to grab a third will force it to a 3v5 base. Corruptors counter all air, at least in small to medium numbers. The mothership isn't scary because you don't have the gas for the archon toilet, so if you get a vortex out, zerg sends all of his army into it. On the other hand, Ohana layout is poor for mothership defense against air. Your third is directly across from the natural so the distance third to main is large. If it was more of a V shape it would be better for the slow units. ~edit Also he didn't have many cannons. For a build that is supposed to be gas starved I believe, having cannons would have greatly changed the air fight over his base. Maybe he only placed them at third/natural, I would need to check replay to check it out.
Yeah like you said, the defensive point is relying on cannons and favorable positioning for defense. If he didn't have many cannons, it sounds like his macro probably slipped as there should be tons of minerals that need to go somewhere. I know that normally when I lose a battle to an early push, I'll have 1500 minerals that I did a bad job of spending.
I would argue Corruptors are not very good in medium numbers either, just based on experience, but I suppose this isn't that hard to test. What I do know, is that If the Voids can charge during the battle while trading at a close to even rate, they crush near the end... Infestor suport is Critical according to all of my game experience and unit testing.
While offensive Options are somewhat Limited, (if and only if ample defenses are made) You can certainly do lots of harassing/scouting/defending/expanding, thats kinda the whole point. You can also transition into a 3 base all-in if you felt like it, but I don't really do this. There have been a lot of games where I go to harass with my airball but then I just strait up win because the zerg overdroned behind a handful of spores/infestors and expected me to keep turtling.
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Facd this style the other day. Serious pain in my ass ><
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This sounds like quite an innovative way to play PvZ. I've always tried to be creative, doing things that other people don't (ie no stalkers, mass immortal/archon etc). This is something I'll have to add to the list. I like the defensive mothership idea and the pure strength in mass voidrays. 20+ of them just melt bases.
I'm curious if any pros have any insight into this. I remember White-ra experimenting with stargate play a while back, but it was quite different from this still.
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Northern Ireland23721 Posts
A few things I'd suggest from my limited experience trying this.
Split your void rays into 2 control groups, or more depending on how you lay out your hotkeys. This makes splitting them in engagements a lot easier and avoiding the worst effects of fungal.
If the Zerg opts for a pure infestor/corruptor defence I leave 20 or 30 supply free when possible and send out zealot hitsquads around the map. It's not massively cost efficient, but it forces the Zerg to split his stuff and makes the attacks from your fleet more potent as a consequence. Sometime I even send out a few Zealots with an obs to reduce the creep spread. This is important if the Zerg is bringing his Queens along for extra AA/mass transfuses in that it slows them down a lot.
The addition of 3/4 collosus, or high temps to try to mitigate mass infestors underneath corruptors is also advisory in my view, it doesn't take away from the strength of your air fleet much, and adds a bit of safety against counter-compositions
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On May 05 2012 10:37 Wombat_NI wrote:
A few things I'd suggest from my limited experience trying this.
Split your void rays into 2 control groups, or more depending on how you lay out your hotkeys. This makes splitting them in engagements a lot easier and avoiding the worst effects of fungal.
If the Zerg opts for a pure infestor/corruptor defence I leave 20 or 30 supply free when possible and send out zealot hitsquads around the map. It's not massively cost efficient, but it forces the Zerg to split his stuff and makes the attacks from your fleet more potent as a consequence. Sometime I even send out a few Zealots with an obs to reduce the creep spread. This is important if the Zerg is bringing his Queens along for extra AA/mass transfuses in that it slows them down a lot.
The addition of 3/4 collosus, or high temps to try to mitigate mass infestors underneath corruptors is also advisory in my view, it doesn't take away from the strength of your air fleet much, and adds a bit of safety against counter-compositions
the zealot hit squad is hilariously funny, it's frustrating for the zerg to deal with if they are heavy corrutor infestor. At a minimum, ground units soak up some Fungals, and only die to spines/queens/stray lings.
I have been transitioning into just a few colossus sometime late 3base early 4base. 2-3 really shred infestors and don't eat too much supply. Also, colossus/Void ray is very mobile, can cliffwalk, and recall so you still have sick harass/kill potential with the ability to recall from a swarm of corruptor/fungal if you don't like how the engagement is going. Also, with a few colossus joining your fleet, fungal will only eat away at the shields at the often fatal cost of the spellcasting infestor.
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I've been using this strategy for most of my PvZs lately and it's definitely a refreshing way to play the matchup. Thanks for sharing the build!
Have you ever thought about skipping warp gate research in favor of faster +1 air weapons? It only costs 50/50 more and sets you up for the late game much faster; not to mention it helps against mutalisks in the mid-game. It'll delay the fleet beacon very briefly but the mothership will be ready at the third by the 12 minute mark regardless. This also lines up quite well for +2 air weapons after the mothership is in production. Since you opt for colossi as a response to counter-compositions, you probably won't need the warp gate anyway.
On another note, since the mothership is usually left at one of your bases, I think ferrying high templars around in warp prisms is a viable alternative to colossi. Storm can deal with hydras, stacked corruptors, and feedback can deal with infestors. You can also use templars defensively; storm is ridiculously good at defending multipronged attacks when used in conjunction with cannons.
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On May 05 2012 12:00 flyingnimbus wrote:
I've been using this strategy for most of my PvZs lately and it's definitely a refreshing way to play the matchup. Thanks for sharing the build!
Have you ever thought about skipping warp gate research in favor of faster +1 air weapons? It only costs 50/50 more and sets you up for the late game much faster; not to mention it helps against mutalisks in the mid-game. It'll delay the fleet beacon very briefly but the mothership will be ready at the third by the 12 minute mark regardless. This also lines up quite well for +2 air weapons after the mothership is in production. Since you opt for colossi as a response to counter-compositions, you probably won't need the warp gate anyway.
On another note, since the mothership is usually left at one of your bases, I think ferrying high templars around in warp prisms is a viable alternative to colossi. Storm can deal with hydras, stacked corruptors, and feedback can deal with infestors. You can also use templars defensively; storm is ridiculously good at defending multipronged attacks when used in conjunction with cannons.
Ya I wanna say I've tried to skip the WarpGate like 5 or 6 times, and almost everytime coincidentally I get baneling busted or or theres a huge speedling runby where 1 or 2 well placed zealot warp-ins would make a huge difference. I know this is just coincidence, but at the same time warpgate is pretty cheap and and amazing upgrade, even if you are hardly using it. I think skipping it atleast temporarily is definitely viable, though.
There are lots of cute tricks you can do, but I have top 3 attack move. What you suggest sounds pretty fancy and also pretty expensive, but I'm sure there is a way to pull it off.
I'm happy you find the approach a little more refreshing.
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I also played my own variation of that build, ofc starting with http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE :D
I can place my starport @ 5:20 , and everything will be even faster and stronger. Mothership is ready at 11:00 . was pretty funny to have it that early, no zerg would expect that and pushes usually come without overseer.
Still i think, that strat is very map dependant. On some maps u really need loots of canons to be save ^^
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On May 06 2012 15:39 Yuffie wrote:I also played my own variation of that build, ofc starting with http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE :D I can place my starport @ 5:20 , and everything will be even faster and stronger. Mothership is ready at 11:00 . was pretty funny to have it that early, no zerg would expect that and pushes usually come without overseer. Still i think, that strat is very map dependant. On some maps u really need loots of canons to be save ^^
Sounds interesting, Thank you.
My "build" is by no means even close to optimized, it\s more of just a casual plan, one that I feel is very strong, it sounds like you have made an improvement and I can't wait to try it!
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Alright, I was toying around with this the past coupe of days and I noted a few things. I am mid Masters on NA in case anyone is wondering.
1. Games last LONG. All the games that I didn't die to early aggression, they lasted at least 20 minutes, commonly around 30.
2. As a result of games lasting long, focus on upgrades is paramount. I have to definitely attribute a lot, if not all, of my wins to being up in reasonable upgrades. Carriers hit hard as hell when they're at 3 attack. I'm sure you guys already knew that.
3. Defensive Mothership is pretty amazing. It bolsters your defense tremendously, and gives more mobility to an honestly slow army. Recall is apparently awesome. That in mind, It has forced me to get used to using the Mothership on a completely different hotkey.
4. Corrupters are not that great against this composition, UNLESS they're upgraded. I do not see many zerg going double Spire though. Hydras are also not that great against this composition. But then again, I haven't gone up against 3/3 Hydras yet (I see a lot of zerg skipping Carapace for some reason).
5. There is no efficient mineral dump against this composition. Spore Crawlers fail against Carriers, Lings can't hit air (or get past a cannon wall), and I haven't seen a queen heavy composition yet (Although I have to assume Carrier dps will negate Transfuse anyways). Forcing the zerg into a gas heavy composition is something that seems to make them uncomfortable. In other words, I have made several zerg lose purely because they ran out of gas to reinforce.
6. A lot of games seem to catch the zerg completely off guard, simply by putting the Stargates 2 opposite ends of the base. By showing a single Stargate, the zerg seem to assume that that's all you have, and it commonly leaves them unprepared if they attempt to engage with no antiair.
Replays:
In the following replays, I opened up Forge Expand every single time, along with Double Stargate. In almost all of the games, I went for pure air, the composition consisting of 1 Mothership, Void Rays and Carriers, going Phoenix for Mutas (obviously). I opted for more heavy Carriers in most games, although I have yet to differentiate when it is appropriate to do one or the other.
http://drop.sc/173180
Daybreak
Muta Ling play. Although he was able to wreck my economy, the infrastructure for a Phoenix switch kept the muta numbers down, in addition to having not touched the primary army. As such, the final engagement was more or less a walkover, since he was unable to maintain a 4th (or his main). Also, 3 attack Carriers wreck 0 armor Hydras.
http://drop.sc/173183
Korhal Compound LE
I was really bad in scouting this game, he took every base that wasn't on my side of the map, and I completely missed it. Still, I felt as if his 4th was too late, and he found out first hand why you shouldn't bunch up your overseers. Again, 3 attack Carriers really smash things with no armor.
http://drop.sc/173185
Cloud Kingdom LE
Hydra Infestor composition. I believe what killed him is that he made too many infestors and it cut deep into his gas. As such, he was unable to reinforce with either Hydras or more Corrupters. Also, his 4th was really late, which allowed it to get sniped almost immediately.
http://drop.sc/173186
Antiga Shipyard
I believe he tried Stephano style roaches, assuming that it was only 1 Stargate. As such, I found out how effective Void Rays + Cannons are against Roach Ling. It seems like the rest of it was him losing too much and being unable to rebuild his economy effectively (or even get a composition that can hit air).
http://drop.sc/173221
Cloud Kingdom LE
44 Corrupters < 15 Void Rays, 6 Carriers. To be fair, the toss is at 3/2/1 and the Corrupters were at 1/1, in addition to half the Corrupter army didn't engage immediately. Although he was able to get good ling runbys, I was able to keep my army. Also, even though he hit 6k minerals, I reiterate that there is no efficient mineral dump against mass air.
http://drop.sc/173224
Korhal Compound LE
This game is a loss. It showcases early aggression destroying enough of the economy that it becomes too taxing to recover. He also significantly delayed my 3rd, forcing my army to grow too slowly. It also involves the use of double spire to equate the upgrades that the air toss had. Since I haven't tried double Core yet, I fell behind in upgrades and 3/2 Corrupters overran me in the end.
In the end, I feel it's at least a refreshing look at PvZ, and I will certainly be trying out mass air more. I'll post more replays as they come along.
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I would like to try playing against this build for testing sometime. Let me know, Senna.516
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On May 06 2012 17:30 piroko139 wrote:Alright, I was toying around with this the past coupe of days and I noted a few things. I am mid Masters on NA in case anyone is wondering. 1. Games last LONG. All the games that I didn't die to early aggression, they lasted at least 20 minutes, commonly around 30. 2. As a result of games lasting long, focus on upgrades is paramount. I have to definitely attribute a lot, if not all, of my wins to being up in reasonable upgrades. Carriers hit hard as hell when they're at 3 attack. I'm sure you guys already knew that. 3. Defensive Mothership is pretty amazing. It bolsters your defense tremendously, and gives more mobility to an honestly slow army. Recall is apparently awesome. That in mind, It has forced me to get used to using the Mothership on a completely different hotkey. 4. Corrupters are not that great against this composition, UNLESS they're upgraded. I do not see many zerg going double Spire though. Hydras are also not that great against this composition. But then again, I haven't gone up against 3/3 Hydras yet (I see a lot of zerg skipping Carapace for some reason). 5. There is no efficient mineral dump against this composition. Spore Crawlers fail against Carriers, Lings can't hit air (or get past a cannon wall), and I haven't seen a queen heavy composition yet (Although I have to assume Carrier dps will negate Transfuse anyways). Forcing the zerg into a gas heavy composition is something that seems to make them uncomfortable. In other words, I have made several zerg lose purely because they ran out of gas to reinforce. 6. A lot of games seem to catch the zerg completely off guard, simply by putting the Stargates 2 opposite ends of the base. By showing a single Stargate, the zerg seem to assume that that's all you have, and it commonly leaves them unprepared if they attempt to engage with no antiair. Replays: In the following replays, I opened up Forge Expand every single time, along with Double Stargate. In almost all of the games, I went for pure air, the composition consisting of 1 Mothership, Void Rays and Carriers, going Phoenix for Mutas (obviously). I opted for more heavy Carriers in most games, although I have yet to differentiate when it is appropriate to do one or the other. http://drop.sc/173180Daybreak Muta Ling play. Although he was able to wreck my economy, the infrastructure for a Phoenix switch kept the muta numbers down, in addition to having not touched the primary army. As such, the final engagement was more or less a walkover, since he was unable to maintain a 4th (or his main). Also, 3 attack Carriers wreck 0 armor Hydras. http://drop.sc/173183Korhal Compound LE I was really bad in scouting this game, he took every base that wasn't on my side of the map, and I completely missed it. Still, I felt as if his 4th was too late, and he found out first hand why you shouldn't bunch up your overseers. Again, 3 attack Carriers really smash things with no armor. http://drop.sc/173185Cloud Kingdom LE Hydra Infestor composition. I believe what killed him is that he made too many infestors and it cut deep into his gas. As such, he was unable to reinforce with either Hydras or more Corrupters. Also, his 4th was really late, which allowed it to get sniped almost immediately. http://drop.sc/173186Antiga Shipyard I believe he tried Stephano style roaches, assuming that it was only 1 Stargate. As such, I found out how effective Void Rays + Cannons are against Roach Ling. It seems like the rest of it was him losing too much and being unable to rebuild his economy effectively (or even get a composition that can hit air). http://drop.sc/173221Cloud Kingdom LE 44 Corrupters < 15 Void Rays, 6 Carriers. To be fair, the toss is at 3/2/1 and the Corrupters were at 1/1, in addition to half the Corrupter army didn't engage immediately. Although he was able to get good ling runbys, I was able to keep my army. Also, even though he hit 6k minerals, I reiterate that there is no efficient mineral dump against mass air. http://drop.sc/173224Korhal Compound LE This game is a loss. It showcases early aggression destroying enough of the economy that it becomes too taxing to recover. He also significantly delayed my 3rd, forcing my army to grow too slowly. It also involves the use of double spire to equate the upgrades that the air toss had. Since I haven't tried double Core yet, I fell behind in upgrades and 3/2 Corrupters overran me in the end. In the end, I feel it's at least a refreshing look at PvZ, and I will certainly be trying out mass air more. I'll post more replays as they come along.
Thanks for the contribution! I'm happy you find it at least refreshing. I added your post to the OP and hope you don't mind as I think the replays and your comments on them can be helpful.
I can't wait to watch your Antiga game. I'm trying to figure out if every attack can be held, or if I just haven't run into well enough executed attacks at our level.
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I've been doing a variation of this for a while, it's good to see that somebody wrote a guide for skytoss. Hopefully protoss air will become more viable in the future.
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I was wondering about drops: as Protoss army is kind of slow, I felt that would be a potential strategy for zerg, at least as a transition to something else: for instance: 3 hatch roach, into drops (after zerg saw protoss void rays); into corruptors/droplings.
Have you guys faced that?
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On May 06 2012 18:04 Macpo wrote:
I was wondering about drops: as Protoss army is kind of slow, I felt that would be a potential strategy for zerg, at least as a transition to something else: for instance: 3 hatch roach, into drops (after zerg saw protoss void rays); into corruptors/droplings.
Have you guys faced that?
Voids are supposed to offer map control so that you would be able to see drops (and other attacks) coming. I have never faced drop lings before, and with this style and spamming of cannons, I can't see dropping lings being very effective as a result. Either way, it's not a very common style.
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On May 06 2012 18:04 Macpo wrote:
I was wondering about drops: as Protoss army is kind of slow, I felt that would be a potential strategy for zerg, at least as a transition to something else: for instance: 3 hatch roach, into drops (after zerg saw protoss void rays); into corruptors/droplings.
Have you guys faced that?
Droplings can indeed be a problem, in your main, (drop anything) if you are out of position and don't see it coming, and if you have vital tech vulnerable. I normally position everything very carefully, and usually have my SG on highground but near the ramp, so a highground cannon or two can get a lot done. Sometimes the Nexus is vulnerable... I've messed around with just cannoning it blind, or just running the probes as best you can if you happen to be up against drop/ runby play.
I learned that just having a few extra gates, not even more than 4. And a few "money" cannons completely walled in and behind minerals really helps to shut this down, or at least handle it, in my experience.
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I don't see how this works against corruptor/infestor at all. Corruptors kill the mothership easily and trade well enough with voidrays. Especially with some infestors for fungal backup it shouldn't be a problem at all for zerg to stop this.
Also waiting for mothership to take third is just awfully slow.
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EPT
