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On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game.
Let me put this in a simple way
White-ra does something similar
Parting does something similar
Two of the pro scene protoss plaers and i bet there are more who at least try to fiddle around with 2 stargate into third builds.
If you want to discount White-ra and parting into the amateur leauges, be my guest. But the main thing you are missing here is that the DRG/Stephano style also took like 2-3 months to be completely figured and and be as strong as it is now. It used to be a joke that the zergs came with 30 roaches to deny your third, now it's 60 roaches.
So unless you come with evidence that zergs have over 60% winrate against this strategy, you have no grounds to call for a bad build, or call it amateur league stuff
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I think that this is definitely one of those strategies that will be almost autowin if the opponent does not identify it and takes measures against it early on. Barring a lot of infestors getting dream fungals off, I don't see anything stopping the void ray clump. Somebody did this to me on ladder and beyond a certain number of void rays it is very hard to do something about.
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On May 02 2012 22:52 straycat wrote:
I think that this is definitely one of those strategies that will be almost autowin if the opponent does not identify it and takes measures against it early on. Barring a lot of infestors getting dream fungals off, I don't see anything stopping the void ray clump. Somebody did this to me on ladder and beyond a certain number of void rays it is very hard to do something about.
I don't think the Void ball is quite "unbeatable" in a head on fight lategame, corruptor infestor is a stronger max IMO,
BUT,
1 - You can retreat from any fight you don't like, and make little adjustments to your composition (like throwing in 10 stalkers, versus a corruptor/infestor max (redic funny,) adding in more carriers, deciding to abandon your timing and secure an expansion w/ cannons, etc)
You can harass with a ridiculously strong force, and snipe bases/tech in a matter of seconds, and your opponent cant retreat without taking a lot of losses if he makes a mistake with his composition, engagement, or micro, he just loses, if you make this mistake you just recall and say "OOPs, BRB BRO!"
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If you scout spire, do you tech switch to phoenixes then? Or do you somehow still beat them with voids?
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On May 02 2012 23:20 Treehead wrote:
If you scout spire, do you tech switch to phoenixes then? Or do you somehow still beat them with voids?
Well, spire can be corruptor tech, and you definitely dont want too many Phoenix versus no Muta.
Versus Muta you obviously need some amount of Phoenix or else your mineral lines will just be hit and run forever, and since you are going lategame he can dump a LOT of gas into mutas if he wants, cannons alone are not sufficient defense. They help for extra DPS and give you a little extra margin for error with your micro but you absolutely need some amount of Phoenix support vs Muta. The new upgrade actually becomes useful as well, which is nice to get.
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Italy12246 Posts
Not sure how standard can ever be since it can have really strong hard counters, but i guess it's nice to throw it in there if you are a big stargate fan in a BoX series.
Do you ever simcity your third with gateways to protect your cannons on maps like Entombed, even though you are unlikely to use them for a while?
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On May 02 2012 22:29 TechSc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game. Let me put this in a simple way White-ra does something similar Parting does something similar Two of the pro scene protoss plaers and i bet there are more who at least try to fiddle around with 2 stargate into third builds. If you want to discount White-ra and parting into the amateur leauges, be my guest. But the main thing you are missing here is that the DRG/Stephano style also took like 2-3 months to be completely figured and and be as strong as it is now. It used to be a joke that the zergs came with 30 roaches to deny your third, now it's 60 roaches. So unless you come with evidence that zergs have over 60% winrate against this strategy, you have no grounds to call for a bad build, or call it amateur league stuff
From what we have seen in the pro games, this is not a commonly used stra ( even some pros do similar stuff occasionally), do you consider this some kind of evidence? I don't call it a bad build but pros decide this is not a good everyday use build. The risk is too great in pro scenes.
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So I tried this out twice with a little bit of refinement this could be pretty nice :D
I uploaded both of the games. In the first one the tried standard play and had to transition into only hydra which failed.
The second game was pretty interesting. He opened up Muta and then Corruptor Infestor Hydra. It was pretty close at some point but alle worked out pretty well.
1. http://drop.sc/170740
2. http://drop.sc/170741
Greetings. Hope you have to time to see the reps!
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On May 02 2012 16:01 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 15:49 ticklishmusic wrote:
This is kind of a random question, but does anyone know if you can build on a vortex? Like, suppose you threw down a vortex, could you put a nexus down where the vortex was? O_O
Also, I played a couple monobattles with a friend for giggles. I went mass roach and managed to max at ~13/14 mins off of thee bases and a macro hatch with a pretty crappy build-- I got supply blocked a couple times, threw down a gas too early, missed some injects, etc. I did throw down a few spines as well, so that kind of counts for the defense I would have had to get in a "real game". (suppose I should have sacked an ovie as well). First big wave of roaches I wiped out 3 expansions and a bunch of stray thors. Next time I went back in with burrowed +1 roaches. When my teammates finally moved in, it was GG.
Anyways, apart from my awesome monobattle skills, I don't think getting a 12/13 minute roach max is actually that difficult. I rarely play Zerg, and I was pretty close on my first try, even with my screw ups. Of course its not hard to max on roaches?!, the questions is how much damage can they do before they get killed, and how much did you invest into them. Just because you ran around in monobattles and sniped some bases doesn't mean roaches never die. Unfortunately most people that I face abandon roaches when they see mass voidray+cannon+MS (imo for good reason) But people here are theorycrafting that irreversible damage can be dealt, before the roaches die off. I would like to practice against a Stefano style and see if an equally skilled player could break me, I seriously doubt it. I think there is so much you can accomplish with a good sim city and highground/well placed cannons/micro. Also, there is nothing wrong with cancelling your third, waiting a minute or two, and planting it back down... your tech is so much superior and when you have a critical VR mass the zergs army becomes more and more useless, and you are going to kill his units more and more efficiently (to justify a delayed third, if you even had to delay it in the first place.) imho.
I was just surprised how easy it was to get a roach max at 13 minutes. I thought that was supposed to be the difficult part... then attacking with them in a decent concave, pulling back weakened ones, those are just regular old skills. I definitely lost a ton froaches, but I also managed to do terrible terrible damage. Granted that monobattle players are generally much worse than me, but I managed to bash through all of them pretty easily. But again, that's besides the point.
I agree its unlikely for a Zerg to bust through a good protoss sim city, unless there's some egregious micro mistake from the protoss which wouldn't really matter b/c roaches can't shoot up anyways. However, I think that using Nydus or speed drops could prove to be pretty effective though. He can just lift into your main and circumvent the cannons at your natural and third. I don't think you can really defend effectively with your VR at more than one location.
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mass infestor hardcounter it hard,
you cant recall units that are taken from zterg so if he fungal the infestor and take 3-4 voids you will lose them (if u recall the taken units stay there cause they not count as your units)
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@CoR
Nobody uses neural anymore. The only really threat is a direct attack when you have not enough cannons or drops.
Everything else is pretty much useless because a maxed out hydra corruptor infestor army with 120 supply will still loose to mass voids with some cannons and a mamaship with Vortex.
Greetings.
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Sounds really cool for a toss tryign to mix it up, but a little gimmicky  . I think the game could end up a couple of ways, First, someone starts with the standard 3 hatch rw evo business and while you have double stargate trying to haras they just counter and kill you (Stephano vs Hero). There could also be a timing similar to the GSL when Nestea was playing Inca where Nestea's increased production and econ just rolled him. Sounds interesting though.
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I am a low masters protoss and have not lost with this build yet. However, against my mid-masters zerg friend I was forced to transition out of pure air because I couldn't keep up with his production of infestor/corruptor. As in, since I could only attack every time I had 100 energy on the mothership, (or I would subsequently lose instantly to chain fungals) I wasn't doing enough damage... but I threw down three robos, chrono'd out 9 colossus, and crushed him.
Ever since then I've been experimenting with this strategy, but transitioning into an air/templar mix. (which varies according to the opponent's composition.) I felt VERY comfortable with a void ray/ mothership / phoenix / chargelot / HT/ blink stalker / archon composition.
Phoenixes are fantastic for grav lifting infestors, also. You would think this wouldn't be the case, but it forces infestors to use WAY more energy than they otherwise would.
It should be noted that a mothership/observer together are very adept at securing you a fast fourth and fifth base. Manually detonated banelings can hurt you, but that's a lot of resources just to kill a nexus.
And I have been very surprised at the effectiveness of mass cannon as a defensive tactic.
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On May 03 2012 05:39 PandaMonk wrote:Sounds really cool for a toss tryign to mix it up, but a little gimmicky . I think the game could end up a couple of ways, First, someone starts with the standard 3 hatch rw evo business and while you have double stargate trying to haras they just counter and kill you (Stephano vs Hero). There could also be a timing similar to the GSL when Nestea was playing Inca where Nestea's increased production and econ just rolled him. Sounds interesting though.
I don't think its gimmicky because as far as I can tell it defends EVERYTHING and leads to a long macro game. It's a defensive build that helps to establish your expansions and you can transition into any sort of lategame composition as some people itt have experimented with. While you will take some amount of damage versus roaches or baneling/speedling if you defend well your units snowball and you stabilize while the zerg is put on a clock to do fatal damage before your airball just beomes too strong to deflect everything.
Do you have a VOD for the Stephano Hero game? If I had to guess why it lost I would say not enough cannons were used, and too many minerals went into Phoenix/gateway/gateway units. Of course Hero is a fantastic player, so I would love to see why it didn't work out.
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On May 03 2012 05:28 CoR wrote:
mass infestor hardcounter it hard,
you cant recall units that are taken from zterg so if he fungal the infestor and take 3-4 voids you will lose them (if u recall the taken units stay there cause they not count as your units)
Nobody uses Neuro, but this is a good point, and still needs to be addressed.
First of all, the micro can get a little tricky, it's not like you just autolose all void rays because the zeg has researched parasite and built infestors.
He has to be incredibly careful and not let the infestors get targeted down or its a huge problem and a lot of them will be lost. Secondly, if you are unable to scout mass infestor until the battle, you can still recall everything as soon as Neuro starts, (minus the couple of void rays that you are unable to save) and change your composition.... you can go very carrier heavy, or add collossus, or add chargelots or HT's, w/e.
My point is, its hardly a hard counter.
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On May 03 2012 01:13 WinWalk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:29 TechSc2 wrote:On May 02 2012 17:31 WinWalk wrote:
Let me put it in a simple way. Your win rate using this strat may be 80%+ in amateur plays. but I will say it drops below 50% in pro plays (even both sides are pro players). That's why pros don't use it but I agree that it is a very good stra for amateurs to WIN a game. Let me put this in a simple way White-ra does something similar Parting does something similar Two of the pro scene protoss plaers and i bet there are more who at least try to fiddle around with 2 stargate into third builds. If you want to discount White-ra and parting into the amateur leauges, be my guest. But the main thing you are missing here is that the DRG/Stephano style also took like 2-3 months to be completely figured and and be as strong as it is now. It used to be a joke that the zergs came with 30 roaches to deny your third, now it's 60 roaches. So unless you come with evidence that zergs have over 60% winrate against this strategy, you have no grounds to call for a bad build, or call it amateur league stuff From what we have seen in the pro games, this is not a commonly used stra ( even some pros do similar stuff occasionally), do you consider this some kind of evidence? I don't call it a bad build but pros decide this is not a good everyday use build. The risk is too great in pro scenes.
I think the lack of it being used at Pro level, on it's own, is very little (but some) evidence. The less intuitive a build is, the longer it will take to be explored, imo.
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On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors. Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue. "Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way. You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well. My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something.
I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose.
I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts.
Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it.
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On May 03 2012 09:47 oOOoOphidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 10:13 Fogetaboudit wrote:On May 01 2012 04:52 oOOoOphidian wrote:
If you do this against someone who is any good at all, they will simply take a fast third, make 80 drones, then deny your third with mass zergling (so many that cannons don't even help) and kill all your void rays and probes with mutalisks while teching to infestors. Lings versus voidrays/mothership/cannons doesn't end up well for the Zerg. Mass ling is much more destructive with run-by harass, into the main, if I'm too slow to close the chokes/complete a wall. However, this is me screwing up simple micro, not a theory issue. "Kill all of your VR and probes" it doesnt really work this way. You will probably lose your first 3 void rays if you are poking his third and 13 mutas hatch, however even though this trade is crappy for you, he is comitted to Muta Ling, spent a ton of Gas on it, and there is enough time to ball up the rest of your VRs with your MS to "zone", switch to phoenix, and throw down emergency cannons, warp in stalkers, etc. The longer the game goes on the less worried you should be about any muta "suprise" because as the numbers start to grow Mutas don't do very well. My third replay is a Muta game I played yesterday, of course my opponent didn't play perfectly, but it's something. I am saying you will be dead before you get a third base secured or a mothership. It won't be 10 mutalisks either, it will be 20-30 by then, because the zerg was completely free to take 4 bases and fully saturate 8 gas. I watched your replay, your opponent was down on workers the entire game and made horrible decisions throwing away units for no purpose. I could also see a massive vulnerability to roach hydra drops, as even if you can deal with the hydra count you are still too immobile and lacking in army size to defend multiple fronts. Yeah massing void rays and spamming cannons can work if someone lets you get away with it, which is why you see it from bronze leaguers all the time, but it's really not viable if someone scouts it.
Of course my opponent could have played better, I could have as well, and this will always be the case.
I'm not sure how you intend to deny a third protected by X cannons, 9 (and counting) voidrays and a mothership with pure zergling. Even if you can delay it, by sacraficing an unknown number of lings and an unknown number of overseer's. without letting your overseer get sniped, it's eventually going to go up, and it will be well protected.
While mass mass mutas can be a problem if you are unprepared (obviously,) this composition can never do fatal damage, only harass. If I don't see any gas units and I have had my third for a little while I will be scared of mutas and can make a few phoenix to scout, and take more bases if he continues to stockpile gas while refusing to "show his hand."
Also, chrono'd phoenix production from 4 stargates while not as fast as zergs larva production, is still super fast, and fast enough to deal with Mutas.
With the range upgrade (and weapons and armor and shield upgrades) phoenix do okay against muta, I can catch up in numbers extremely quickly, and now I have that many less infestors to worry about in the lategame.
Have you ever seen 16 2/2/1 phoenix with range versus 30 mutas?
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sry hit quote 
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EPT
