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Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 03 2012 04:20 Namenlos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:34 JBright wrote:On May 03 2012 03:21 Namenlos wrote:It is ironic that TL is all about making esport compatible for the masses and financially reliant. Says that everyone should support everything slightly related to esports and then bans someone and hurts him financially who actually makes a living out of sc2. In addition to that he is most successful frist person starcraft streamer by far. So TL don't hurt that elephant. Help support someone who makes a living out of sc2 by enabling him on the streamers list. C lick for slightly relevant pic. Uhh...you do realize he has a successful stream because he plays LoL a lot and is listed on sites like clgaming.net. Considering the popularity of LoL streamers, it's not surprising that some of them would check out Destiny's stream when he plays with players like Dyrus (pro player on a popular team, easily gets 20k when he streamed on own3d) and phantomlord (ex-pro, high elo). edit: whoops, quoted wrong post. In my post there is a link, you can browse back a year and you will see that he was the most popular fps sc2 streamer way before his lol time. Thats was the reason I put the link there, as a source if someone doubts that. Well said DharmaTurtle especially the paragraph after the Plexa quote.
Right, and it's been said many times that the ranking from that site takes into account the number of hours a streamer streams over the course of that month. It's also the reason why the top LoL streamers do so well - they stream for 6-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week. Destiny streams everyday because it's a source of income and that makes him rank very highly by their metrics. There is no doubt he has a lot of viewers, but he is definitely not the most popular by far.
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On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you.
DharmaTurtle all you do is defend Destiny here and on Reddit. Give it rest guy! Mods explained banning his stream will teach him a lesson as he uses this site just for that. Banning IdrA's account made sense because he uses this website to post more. The point is to teach them a lesson about not acting like a retard.
Also these two scenarios are different. IdrA is a old forum goer and his set of circumstances were different. Stop comparing the two just because both of them insulted a mod. TL doesn't owe you anything and try taking some sense into Destiny and ask him to act like an adult instead of spamming forums on his behalf.
TL mods were more than tolerant of Destiny's behavior for a long time. They banned Orb's stream for using n-word before very quickly. They are correct in de-featuring Destiny's stream for 30 days. I say it should be permanent.
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On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what you understand under the definition of "hate speech". All i wanted to point out is that intrigues way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue the issue nor is it helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that they are free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt, since a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion.
are we even reading the same posts? intrigue doesn't make personal attacks, he is (at worst) condescending towards destiny's position.
intrigue posts to try to get people to calm down here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782
saying:
while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
highlights:
it's dumb to use racist terms, but why can't we not overreact by emailing sponsors
he's disappointed in destiny for not having learned from what happened with orb, advises him to apologize however insencerely (ie not stir this up)
destiny replies here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
saying:
Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher?
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make.
I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see.
which of these two is making personal attacks?
follow the thread through, you see that intrigue is remarkably civil, if (as i said) occasionally a little condescending
while destiny busts out jems like:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=46#918
Seriously? Who is this faggot? I thought the colored name or w/e meant he was a mod or some shit?
How fucking mad are you right now, bro?
seriously i don't understand how people see intrigue as even remotely out of line.
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On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion.
The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous.
You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that.
Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past.
Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things.
You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used.
Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you.
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On May 03 2012 04:49 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what you understand under the definition of "hate speech". All i wanted to point out is that intrigues way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue the issue nor is it helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that they are free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt, since a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. are we even reading the same posts? intrigue doesn't make personal attacks, he is (at worst) condescending towards destiny's position. intrigue posts to try to get people to calm down here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782saying: Show nested quote +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions? highlights: it's dumb to use racist terms, but why can't we not overreact by emailing sponsors he's disappointed in destiny for not having learned from what happened with orb, advises him to apologize however insencerely (ie not stir this up) destiny replies here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787saying: Show nested quote +Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher?
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make.
I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see. which of these two is making personal attacks? follow the thread through, you see that intrigue is remarkably civil, if (as i said) occasionally a little condescending while destiny busts out jems like: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=46#918Show nested quote +Seriously? Who is this faggot? I thought the colored name or w/e meant he was a mod or some shit?
How fucking mad are you right now, bro? seriously i don't understand how people see intrigue as even remotely out of line.
Are you reading the same posts?
None of the first two quotes contain personal attacks AND THAT'S WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED.
However you seem to overlook http://imgur.com/Hc23e
Are these personal attacks or not? THose were posted before destiny calls him a "faggot".
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On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process ( as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. (Expressing "disgust and disappointment" in someone sounds like something you would hear from your mother. He's not throwing names around like cunt, faggot, or bitch at this point in the discouse, or any other kind of ad-hominems.)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
That prompted wholesale degradation from this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782
To this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#795
And then this post, which wasn't even solicited as there was no response from Destiny yet to the previous post. In fact, Destiny hadn't even posted anything at all in between these two posts. These were both completely unprovoked.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=41#802
This is hardly, snarking a bit. This is being a brat because you're too apathetic to argue properly.
Then, to put all doubt to rest as to the attitude in question, gloats happily about it here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875¤tpage=1022#20432
If the personal attacks you're referring to are those made by Destiny after this mod displays above that he clearly is only interested in trollbaiting the topic, then I agree with you, they were unacceptable. They also aren't what you're trying to refer to here.
I'm fairly certain the spirit of this topic is attempting to address problems like these, as they give a pretty bad black eye to the modding system of TL. When it works, it works well. However, displays like the above tarnish the system pretty badly.
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On May 03 2012 04:55 luvy wrote:Are you reading the same posts? None of the first two quotes contain personal attacks AND THAT'S WHERE IT SHOULD HAVE ENDED. However you seem to overlook http://imgur.com/Hc23eAre these personal attacks or not? THose were posted before destiny calls him a "faggot".
uh not? It is condescending but nothing that Destiny of all people needed to get hurt over.
It's so funny that Destiny and fans like you don't realize how "Faggot", "Nigger" could be considered as a personal attacks to some people. It might be just words to you but to a gay black man, you ruined his day!
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On May 03 2012 05:03 AzurewinD wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process ( as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787That prompted wholesale degradation from this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#782To this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#795And then this post, which wasn't even solicited as there was no response from Destiny yet to the previous post. In fact, Destiny hadn't even posted anything at all in between the above two posts. These were both completely unprovoked. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=41#802This is hardly, snarking a bit. This is being a brat because you're too apathetic to argue properly. Then, to put all doubt to rest as to the attitude in question, gloats happily about it here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875¤tpage=1022#20432If the personal attacks you're referring to are those made by Destiny after this mod displays above that he clearly is only interested in trollbaiting the topic, then I agree with you, they were unacceptable. They also aren't what you're trying to refer to here. I'm fairly certain the spirit of this topic is attempting to address problems like these, as they give a pretty bad black eye to the modding system of TL. When it works, it works well. However, displays like the above tarnish the system pretty badly.
See my prior post about contextual use of language. If you can't figure it out, I don't see it being worth the headache of trying to spoon-feed it to another raging fan.
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On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you.
Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion?
Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever.
Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
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On May 03 2012 05:03 AzurewinD wrote:Please cite the personal attack that was made on Intrigue in this post. (Expressing "disgust and disappointment" in someone sounds like something you would hear from your mother. He's not throwing names around like cunt, faggot, or bitch at this point in the discouse, or any other kind of ad-hominems.) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333649¤tpage=40#787
EDIT: So you think expressing disgust and disappointment is very "mother" like where as condescending remarks by Intrigue are "personal attacks". Way to twist everyting to your logic, buddy.
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On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again.
And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit.
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On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote + I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited
So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance.
This didn't happen.
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On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful.
those posts in the pic... i QUOTED them to you!
if you can't see the difference between what destiny is saying and what intrigue was saying, then i honestly have nothing further to say here. Enjoy your thread, may you continue in your wonderful fantasy world and may the truth never rear it's ugly head.
goodbye.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first.
Second, when you are trying to help and somebody comes back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first.
Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
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On May 03 2012 05:12 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. What he says is pretty much, "destiny you are an arrogant idiot and should shut up". Hidding insults behind sarcasm dosnt change it from beeing insults. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. those posts in the pic... i QUOTED them to you! if you can't see the difference between what destiny is saying and what intrigue was saying, then i honestly have nothing further to say here. Enjoy your thread, may you continue in your wonderful fantasy world and may the truth never rear it's ugly head. goodbye.
What he pretty much says is "destiny you are an arrogant idiot that should shut up". Hidding insults behind sarcasm dosnt change the fact that it is an insult.
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On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit.
I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said.
I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community?
Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you?
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On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen.
I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you?
And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand.
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On May 03 2012 05:15 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first. Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic.
The diffecrene between the post are that influence uses stupid and dumb for what he thinks of the communites and destinys action while destiny uses disgusted and disappointed to describe what he thinks of influence stand point. Not a gigantic difference in my world.,
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On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand.
Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
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EPT
