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On May 03 2012 05:21 ahtf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:15 lyonfront wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. First of all i edited the post since you preemtively tried to discredit the personal attack as a "mother" like comment. Read that first. Second, when you are trying to help somebody and they come back to you with the above insult, all bets are off. Infact Intrigue's condescending remarks were sort of a reply mocking Destiny's grandoise stance on this topic. The diffecrene between the post are that influence uses stupid and dumb for what he thinks of the communites and destinys action while destiny uses disgusted and disappointed to describe what he thinks of influence stand point. Not a gigantic difference in my world.,
Huh? Intrigue you mean.
In YOUR eyes, there might not be a difference but in MINE this is what i see: A guy gives another guy some advice, the second guy goes off tangent about some b.s. cause insulting the first guy and a community following "PR" moves.
At the end it's how the mods of this PRIVATELY run forum view it and that's that.
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On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
Oh!! we should expect a standard from a TL mod but god forbid we expect anything from a far more popular community figure like Destiny. Come on! that's unreasonable! You guys are ridiculous.
TL put up with Destiny's b.s. for long enough, i think they should have banned his ass long time ago. You should be happy they have been so patient for so long.
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you gotta watch out man, these guys
will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology.
i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with.
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On May 03 2012 05:26 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more. Oh!! we should expect a standard from a TL mod but god forbid we expect anything from a far more popular community figure like Destiny. Come on! that's unreasonable! You guys are ridiculous.
Where did i defend destiny again? if he does that shit ban the fuck out of him i just wrote that down.
So you really think letting a witchhunt happen is okay because it's destiny and he deserves this?
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On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: The second has to do with your opinion that words like "nigger" and "gook" are OK to use, as long as they are used in the correct context; that is, a non-racist context. This is a view that you repeatedly expressed in the thread, and one that you have expressed on other sites and on SC2 talk shows. It is an opinion that is incompatible with the values of this community. A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you?
Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community.
I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.)
What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did.
And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
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On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys Show nested quote +will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with.
can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
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On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
Are the mods not allowed to post except to close threads anymore? Intrigue was posting as a MEMBER OF THE SITE.
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On May 03 2012 05:24 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:21 huameng wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 AzurewinD wrote:On May 03 2012 05:09 lyonfront wrote: I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make. Cited So now the proper response is to explain why you find meaning in those PR moves. Debate the point further and defend your stance. This didn't happen. I think you should focus on the first part of the sentence, not the second part. Even if the "PR moves" are meaningless, it doesn't mean that telling someone they disgust you isn't a personal attack! If your mother would say that or not is irrelevant, mothers are perfectly capable of personal attack. Why do you think your mother can't attack you? And of course, calling the entire community "a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots" for being receptive to a PR statement isn't exactly the nicest way he could've said that. Someone says that about the community and then gets some snarky replies and somehow your problem is with the snark... I don't think I will ever understand. Yes of course he gets these snarky replies. But by a mod? Come on. If he insults the community ban/tempban/warn him. Done. But don't fire up the witchhunt even more.
Yeah I agree with you that intrigue was being an asshole. That's sort of how TL mods operate though, they like to drop their hammer of justice not just through bannings but verbally as well. (And they allow other bigname veterans to do the same) Is that the best way to do things? I don't know, I personally don't think so and I would not have handled this the same was intrigue did, but TL has made their decision on that--it's a core part of the TL identity at this point--and I don't think it's going to change.
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On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod?
my statement on intrigues behaviour?
flawless, outstanding, exemplary. Did what destiny claims to do by standing up for himself in the face of ignorant attacks. As a moderator, ridiculed self-important pontificating and opposed an attitude of self-centred bigotry.
why, what would your statement on destiny's behaviour be?
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On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 02:57 opisska wrote:So it has come to this ... quouting ftom the ABL: [quote] A couple of weeks ago I made a thread basically about banning people for their opinions and the answares were mainly, I would say, evasive. But here we have it black on... (geryishlightblue?). TL bans for viewpoints. Period. I believe it was KwarK who said in my thread that he holds TL to a "higher standard". If this was a true stance of the TL admins (not a hypocritical shout in the wind), intrigue should be immediately "fired" (having mod rughts revoked) for what she (I hope I understand it right that intrigue is a woman, I am just not sure - no offense meant) did in that thread. That personal attack on Destiny was really bellow any standard of anything. But these are just tiny details. What you guys did to Destiny was just personally horrible in one way or another. You should have apologized to him, not banned him. So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf? /snark TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people). Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did. The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans. Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements.
I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective?
When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not?
Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though?
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On May 03 2012 05:37 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:31 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:29 kerpal wrote:you gotta watch out man, these guys will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. i'm not sure this is the kind of crowd you can argue with. can you please stop implying that i am dumb and give a statement on intrigue's behaviour as a responsible mod? my statement on intrigues behaviour? flawless, outstanding, exemplary. Did what destiny claims to do by standing up for himself in the face of ignorant attacks. As a moderator, ridiculed self-important pontificating and opposed an attitude of self-centred bigotry. why, what would your statement on destiny's behaviour be?
my statement on destiny's behaviour?
ridicolous, self-centred, unreasonable. Can do whatever he wants on his stream, i don't watch it. But taking his attitude to the TL forums is very wrong.
why, does this serve as a base to make a mod help start a witchhunt?
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On May 03 2012 05:38 luvy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:02 JingleHell wrote:
[quote]
So, after reading your sig, is it safe to say you're offended on Destiny's behalf?
/snark
TL didn't ban for a point of view. The ban was for unacceptable language and the personal attacks. Those were a response to SARCASM. Intrigue was trying to make a point, snarked a bit in the process (as a direct response to insults and personal attacks that would have already been a ban for most people).
Intrigue did nothing even vaguely resembling what Destiny did.
The ban wasn't for racism. Note how long that shitfest of a thread got left open for discussion? They tried to let viewpoints be argued. It was closed because it turned into a shitfest of personal attacks, mostly being made by Destiny and his fans.
Comparing the things Intrigue said to the things Destiny said is like saying lethal force is an appropriate response to having a rolled up newspaper thrown at your head. (And since I got those out of order, I'm comparing Destiny's comments to lethal force.) Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking. There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place. If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective? When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not? Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though?
Intrigue went nowhere near Destiny's level. If you think a little bit of sarcasm is somehow the same as using and condoning hate speech, and making ad hominem attacks directed at the entire community, then you've completely exceeded my capacity to mock your analytical faculties.
The mods originally wanted to allow dialogue on the topic. Intrigue was merely PART of that dialogue as a member of the community. The thread died because the dialogue/vitriol ratio went completely insane.
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On May 03 2012 05:42 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 05:38 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:30 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:20 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 05:11 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 05:08 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 04:52 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 04:32 luvy wrote:On May 03 2012 03:39 JingleHell wrote:On May 03 2012 03:15 luvy wrote:
[quote]
Is it really about who offended who more harshly? Who made the worse personal attacks? That is an awful way of thinking.
There should be no personal attacks AT ALL; BY EITHER SIDE. There was no need for them in the first place.
If you justify with "it's our house!" then that's fine. But saying "well, he did it first!" is very childish and it does not resemble a calm, rational moderation, whatsoever. Dont't base your own faul behaviour on the faul behaviour of others. No, it's not about who offended who more harshly, it's about who stepped over the line from sarcastic debate to hate speech and extreme insults, and who didn't. The person who did something that's not really a big deal, and the person whose response was entirely out of proportion. The only people saying "he did it first" are actually trying to defend Destiny, by taking Intrigue's first post in that thread completely out of context to the point of reinventing the English language. People in favor of the mod action are mostly pointing out that the perceived slight against Destiny doesn't even vaguely begin to hold a candle to Destiny's continuing documented behavior. Personal attacks are personal attacks. I am not quite sure what your definition of "hate speech" is. All i wanted to point out is that intrigue's way of dealing with the situation (you call it "Sarcasm") is neither a good way to argue in general nor is it constructive and helpful for anyone. His little sarcastic remarks were very personal and the only purpose of them was to hurt/annoy destiny. I do not see a section in destiny's posts where he made a negative remark on intrigue's personal life. Yes, destiny used "forbidden words" in his posts, though there was little to no meaning behind these words. All he said was, that he strongly disagrees. I don't see hate behind this, just a bad(by that i mean too harsh written out) opinion. Of course destiny's choice to act the way he did was unreflected, but the same goes for intrigue. By seeing a moderator not being constructive, but just very sarcastic, cynical and destructive, other people notice that and feel free to bash destiny and start the witchhunt. After all, a moderator seems to be okay with doing just that. I still search for the need for intrigue to make these mean remarks on destiny's life, career and opinion. The word "faggot" definitely qualifies as hate speech. That's even if we ignore the racial slurs on his stream, which frankly, we shouldn't. The complaint that he shouldn't be de-featured suggests that they shouldn't have a say in what content they choose to feature, which is ludicrous. You can't say there's little to no meaning behind words. The accepted contextual definitions of a word GIVE intent, even if you don't know the person you're directing it at. And I do mean the CONTEXTUAL definition. For example, if I'm arguing with someone and call them a genius, the implicit sarcasm gives it a contextual definition of insulting their intelligence, even though the literal definition would contraindicate that. Calling someone a faggot, a nigger, or a gook because you dislike something they did or said, contextually, is an insult, both to them and to the people those words have been used as an attack on in the past. Intrigue, on the other hand, was using sarcasm to back up a legitimate debate point. Intrigue was trying to remind Destiny that the world doesn't revolve around his point of view. (Or at least that's how I saw it.) A personal attack for the sake of a personal attack, and sarcasm used to more eloquently state an opionion, are two entirely different things. You'll notice how, despite the fact that you keep refusing to even try and see things from a different point of view, I'm refraining from calling you a fanboy. (Or I was.) That's because it wouldn't have helped the dialogue along. However, you're not interested in a dialogue, you just want to be right, at the cost of not understanding. I, on the other hand, understand your point of view, I just find several serious faults with it, mostly involving your attempts to suborn the mechanism of debate, specifically, the language being used. Anyways, unless you can actually demonstrate a similarity between Intrigue's posts and those of Destiny, I'm done beating my head against the proverbial wall with you. Hey, come one, no need to get all personal on me now. What have my own motives to do with intrigue's behaviour and this discussion? Also, http://imgur.com/Hc23e is not backing up any point whatsoever. Thanks for the definiton, by the way. Very helpful. That is not a similarity between their posting. That is not a rebuttal to anything I said. Last condition still in effect. If you want a dialogue, put in effort instead of reiterating the same non-existent points over and over again. And according to the logic you and everyone else defending Destiny has been using, I definitely wasn't getting "all personal", because anything that could possibly have been a personal attack in there was purely implicit, not explicit. I am not trying to defend destiny. I am trying to get you to look at intrigue's behaviour as a moderator from a more neutral perspective. I am also not trying to "rebuttal" anything you said. I just want you to answer, if you think it is the right choice to make personal, implistic remarks as a moderator, instead of just put down a warning for use of language and leave it there? Please try to leave the content of their discussion out of this one. I just want you to critically think about intrigue's actions and if there could be better alternatives of dealing with someone harshly disagreeing with you and ultimately can we learn anything from this incident as a moderator and as a community? Why imply a personal attack than? what did i ever do to you? Yes, you are defending Destiny. Suggesting there's something wrong with Intrigue's opinions as a poster and a member of the community, (not as a mod, since he wasn't the one who banned Destiny), suggests that Destiny's behavior didn't call for that sort of comment. It easily did. Intrigue was using sarcasm to make a point, not as a mod but as a poster, and Destiny responded with a personal attack to both Intrigue and the community. I find it humorous that you're telling me to apply critical thought about Intrigue here, when you (giving the most credit possible) don't understand the language well enough to apply it to Destiny's posts. (Giving less credit, I would suggest fanboyism as a possible alternative cause.) What we can learn from the incident is that you obey the rules and you stand a better chance of not having mod action taken against you. Intrigue didn't violate the rules, Destiny did. And I didn't imply a personal attack. I carefully stated a point of view that your case against Intrigue involves sufficient refusal to look at the facts that it makes you look like an aggrieved fanboy with an axe to grind. You decided that must be a personal attack, even though the point of this thread, in the logic of those who are against Intrigue and for Destiny, suggests that you can't possibly derive any non-explicit meaning from words or statements. I never talked about intrigue's opinion, i am talking about the way he presented it. Do you think his sarcastic remarks were fine and well thought out? I do believe that there was a possible way to avoid a 130+ page thread, in which destiny makes a disgrace of himself. Why is it so hard for you look at it from another perspective? When i am saying "ban that guy(being destiny)", am i being critically of destiny's choice of speech or not? Does intrigue need to go down to his level, though? Intrigue went nowhere near Destiny's level. If you think a little bit of sarcasm is somehow the same as using and condoning hate speech, and making ad hominem attacks directed at the entire community, then you've completely exceeded my capacity to mock your analytical faculties. The mods originally wanted to allow dialogue on the topic. Intrigue was merely PART of that dialogue as a member of the community. The thread died because the dialogue/vitriol ratio went completely insane.
I guess you can look at it that way. Makes a lot of sense, thanks.
I still would have preffered him to refrain from making personal comments in the way he did. You can get a point accross without ridiculing your opponent.
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Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
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On May 03 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
Somehow I get the impression that we didn't read the same posts. Destiny was the one who called the community stupid. The mod gave a bit of good advice. The thread was kept open in a vain attempt at discussion.
The moderation rules of TL aren't like law. Precedent doesn't mean much, and the rules never said "We won't unfeature a stream to make a point if it's the #1 way to make a ban actually get your attention." Or anything even remotely resembling it.
In fact, if we go with the "Established precedent" logic, the established precedent is that people who use TL for the sole or nearly sole purpose of self-promotion get perma-bans, and never get their stream featured. Should they go with that one instead for Destiny?
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On May 02 2012 10:33 ohampatu wrote:
Some people rage overly bad, especially when they are alone in front of a computer. Just because they get mad, and BM you, possibly even using racist words. Doesn't make them a BM Racist in real life. And doesn't mean they should be lynched. Orb as an example, already had a reputation of being a great caster, and was up and coming, and we knew he was good at what he did and didn't BM/Racist/Do bad shit during his casts. Yet we chose randomly to lynch him for his ladder rage and set him back in his career by many months id imagine. Now Destiny is the same way, in the moment of the loss, he rages, and the pitchforks are brought out. I'm not saying either Orb or Destiny are in the right, but they shouldn't be judged based off Rage at the end of a match. It doesn't make them BM, and doesn't make them Racist.
It looks like you're trying to justify racist comments. Your justification is that
(X) people have free speech and should be able to say whatever they want
( ) they are just words
(X) context matters
( ) everyone says racist things to some extent
( ) you're not REALLY a racist, it's just a joke and everyone should lighten up
( ) there is some kernel of truth to stereotypes
( ) others being offended is not your problem, nor your fault
( ) black people use the word nigger, so white people can too
and therefore this is not a big deal. You're wrong. Here's why you're wrong.
(One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have
too many other flaws to list here because your augment holds water like a wet paper bag.)
Specifically, you are too self-centered to understand that
( ) there is a difference between rights and duties. You have a right to be a
racist fuck, but you also have a duty to not be a racist fuck.
(X) I also have free speech and agency. I can react by being offended and
calling out your asshole behavior.
( ) words can offend people. Offending a group of people for something they
cannot change (e.g. race and sexual orientation) is not nice.
( ) people have had those racist words thrown at them previously in their life.
It's possible they have suffered physical harm while hearing those racist
words.
( ) just because some people are racist doesn't make it okay.
(X) the context is that your racism is an asshole move and insults a class of people.
Context matters for the person listening just as much.
( ) you're not making racial humor. You're not Dave Chapelle. It's racist.
He knows where the line is for acceptable humor, you apparently do not.
(X) asking someone to lighten up when they've been called that name and been
physically, economically, or emotionally hurt when the word was thrown
around isn't funny to them. There's a reason they're offended.
( ) being an asshole to an entire class of people due to stereotypes encourages
racist behavior for those that do not deserve it. Often times these
stereotypes exist due to economic or cultural reasons -- that doesn't
make it nice.
( ) offending others means they will fight back.
( ) offending others is your fault. It's your choice to offend them, but it's
also their choice to be an asshole back to you.
( ) black people can use the word nigger and gay people can use the word fag
because it is a reclaiming of an offensive word. It is an attempt to remove
the sting from the word. You have no right to use it because you're not
removing the sting, you're piling it on.
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
( ) There is a difference between saying Cracker and Nigger. One has a history
that sparks up racial hate that exists to this day. Calling someone a
cracker does not bring up the topic of systematic racism.
( ) It's not a valid argument to justify racism because other people do it.
That includes your accuser. Ad-hominem attacks don't work past 4th grade.
( ) This is not the fun police, you can offend people and be an asshole, but racism
is not nice. The difference is you are not only offending any single target
-- you are offending a whole class of people.
(X) You are communicating in a broadcast medium, other viewers/observers can be
offended.
(X) If you have a right to be an asshole, I also have a right to take action.
( ) You are not Rosa Parks fighting for majority rights.
( ) There's a difference between offending someone and offending a whole class
of people. The Merry Pranksters are fun, racism is not.
( ) You need to empathize more with others, please check with your therapist on
whether you have Aspergers.
( ) A slippery slope argument doesn't work. It's fairly obvious that calling
someone nigger or fag is not okay. We can argue about hypotheticals all day
but we are discussing a specific clear-cut example.
( ) From a utilitarian perspective, using racist remarks hurts business.
( ) Please read up on the "Invisible Backpack", your privilege is leaking out.
( ) You are not showing THE MAN, you just come off as an ignorant, provincial
jackass.
( ) Living in a society where everyone is an asshole to everyone else is no fun.
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(X) Sorry dude, you should try to empathize with others more.
( ) You are an asshole, please GTFO.
( ) Fuck off, I hope you say that shit in public and get shot.
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On May 03 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
Fionn hit it perfect- Destiny? Racial Slurs? Woah, I never expected this.
The mod trolled him, called the community stupid, Brags about getting him banned, oh right- the sarcasm.....
The whole thread was kept open despite knowing it would be: a witchhunt, horrible retread topic (orb), flamefest
The change in rules so that the ban would actively hurt Destiny finacially.
Those are pretty much my issues with it. There is this vague idea in my head that the Destiny thread and the orb thread encourage retaliation actions from the mob. An action if not supported seemingly condoned by TL staff.
An incongruous relationship for a website that promotes Esports.
rofl only thing the mod did was be condescending. Destiny called him a faggot, a stupid cunt and went on about TL on his twitter. Destiny is butthurt right now that he is seeing consequences for his actions.
He will understand that just because he streams to bunch of people doesn't mean he gets to run around posting like a retard. I am glad atleast one community is teaching him a lesson.
You should see Reddit threads he started, opens it on stream so his legions of kid fans can go upvote. 99% of them are pure troll posts. Nobody can do anything about it there but i am glad he can pull the same shit over here.
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It is petty Jingle. Why is Destiny so special they have to change up the ban process? Because it is well known he makes his living through live streaming. Lets get after that to teach him a lesson. PETTY.
What discussion is there?There is a screenshot, and an angry mob. Hell there are numerous bans and warnings in the first couple pages from people begging for it to be closed. What they thought they'd figure out racism in a Destiny yelled at me thread?
+ Show Spoiler +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions?
Comes into the convo swinging. The community is out of its mind and straight up stupid by the end. BS apologies are not a good idea, bad advice. How did that help orb? how is his job doing? Then he says destiny has terrible replies. The tone is not helpful but condescending. I guess he trying to stop a witchhunt, but they already left the thread open and knew what was gonna happen.
Should they go with that one instead for Destiny?
Why not? Thousands of viewers probably use TL to access his stream, got that nice banner and shit. IF they want to take the hit, i'm just saying how it played out Destiny was trapped (had to defend himself, and Destiny lol is not good at tact), then attacked extra cause he makes his living off SC2. It don't seem right.
Sole purpose of self-promotion huh? give me a break it is a two way street. Destiny probably gets more viewers for being featured. The resource of having Destiny as a featured streamer probably brings more people to Teamliquid. He is in the community, on shows, in articles, on stream, he coaches, and he posts or he wouldn't have been banned right?
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On May 03 2012 07:42 Rebel_lion wrote:It is petty Jingle. Why is Destiny so special they have to change up the ban process? Because it is well known he makes his living through live streaming. Lets get after that to teach him a lesson. PETTY. What discussion is there?There is a screenshot, and an angry mob. Hell there are numerous bans and warnings in the first couple pages from people begging for it to be closed. What they thought they'd figure out racism in a Destiny yelled at me thread? + Show Spoiler +while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every complaint threatens them as a unique, proud individual, when a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community (god there are some terrible responses in here), then to warden. your fans will still know who you are at the end of the day, and at least nobody will be writing your sponsors.
why is this community so stupid sometimes? aren't these obvious conclusions? Comes into the convo swinging. The community is out of its mind and straight up stupid by the end. BS apologies are not a good idea, bad advice. How did that help orb? how is his job doing? Then he says destiny has terrible replies. The tone is not helpful but condescending. I guess he trying to stop a witchhunt, but they already left the thread open and knew what was gonna happen. Should they go with that one instead for Destiny? Why not? Thousands of viewers probably use TL to access his stream, got that nice banner and shit. IF they want to take the hit, i'm just saying how it played out Destiny was trapped (had to defend himself, and Destiny lol is not good at tact), then attacked extra cause he makes his living off SC2. It don't seem right. Sole purpose of self-promotion huh? give me a break it is a two way street. Destiny probably gets more viewers for being featured. The resource of having Destiny as a featured streamer probably brings more people to Teamliquid. He is in the community, on shows, in articles, on stream, he coaches, and he posts or he wouldn't have been banned right?
you call what happened to destiny a witch-hunt, but you like all the others seem to have got it in your mind that somehow intrigue is the witch.
this isn't reddit. Destiny was not banned because popular opinion went against him in that thread (although that should be a wakeup call.) he was banned because of his attitude to posters and mods. this has now been talked to death twice.
TL has long had a 'you don't use this site for your own advertising' policy:
this is it
and that's what destiny has been doing.
the mods turned a blind eye because it wasn't a problem, now he's not even being respectful to the site, why should he have the privilege of being listed as a streamer here?
he didn't HAVE to defend himself. there were plenty of people in the thread defending him. And he wasn't banned for defending his actions (although his actions do run contrary to pretty much every code of conduct of this site).
the long and the short of it is that if the mods wanted to they could justify permabanning him 10 times over. or they could permaban him and not justify themselves to anyone.
or they could give him a 30 day slap on the wrist. and if you don't think it's a slap on the wrist, PM to intrigue that you think he's a faggot and we'll see how he responds to that.
you're a 2009 user? wtf.
EDIT, i need to get out of this thread before i post something that gets me banned. 
i just can't believe that people could have a problem with how the mods have handled this. the amount of effort people go through to laud the guy spewing racist stupidity and vilify the mods who have built this community astounds me.
goodnight!
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On May 03 2012 00:50 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:53 DharmaTurtle wrote:I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream. The context is that those words are farrrr over the line. That said, I think that banning his stream from TL is also too far. If I can quote from Idra's true ban reason: Idra's stream will still be listed in the stream section. Our stream list is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia. We believe for these resources to function properly, they must be comprehensive and complete and thus we do not remove banned pro players from them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220441It seems to me as though there's a bit of picking and choosing going on. Banning someone from trolling/speaking/yadda is all fine and dandy - the needs of the community are served. But when mods ban to exact punishment, when they actually intend to hurt someone financially through their actions, and a father at that, who uses his income to support his family... I dunno. Especially when coupled with "we do not remove banned pro players from them" it feels somewhat incongruous. Please reconsider. Thank you. Honestly, Destiny isn't even really a part of TL to begin with unlike Idra who has had a very long history on TL although he seems to have left now. During his time here he really did contribute a lot despite whatever dumb rage he leaked out on occasion. On top of that, Idra has been one of the most prominent foreign BW/SC2 players for years and his record is a vital part of the foreign professional Starcraft scene. On the other hand, Destiny hasn't really contributed anything to TL in comparison to Idra, and his record in SC2 alone really isn't really vital as a part of the history of professional Starcraft. His relevance to the professional scene is minuscule as well. Furthermore, I don't see why moderation action against Destiny should even really take into account the fact that he uses his stream income to support his family. That's Destiny's own fault and whatever leniency that the staff gives to Destiny would purely be out of grace without any referencing to policy. And to be honest, I don't see why the TL staff should feel compelled to show any grace to such a self-righteous and foul person who was never really been a part of TL. Please take the time to read what I wrote - it's one of my shorter posts, and you address none of my points. Idra's stream was left featured during his ban not because of his posting history, but because the featured list was an impartial resource for people looking for streams to watch.On May 03 2012 04:06 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you. I don't think that's why the mods ban, i think bans are to punish. banning for the 'benefit of the community' sounds like a sticky bit of business. for example flame wars like that thread could be considered to be for the good of the community if what you're looking for is post counts, activity and advertising views. Banning any user is almost always bad for the community, because you might put them off sc2 and they might not watch streams and give revenue and... i hope you see my point. the only consistent way to moderate (and that's what you're after) is to punish bad behaviour destiny stepped out of line (way out) and the mods needed to punish him. Banning his account isn't a punishment, so unlist his stream. I think that the mods would like to keep streams listed where possible, but that shouldn't override the need to moderate bad posting. i think that the mods do what they can to 'benefit the community' so long as it doesn't interfere with their need to moderate the forums. i think you're wrong to take the precedent of idra remaining listed as a rule that over-rides all else. Flame wars are never good for the community. Sure they attract attention and get pageloads, but so do the drama threads, memes, and pitchfork hunts on Reddit. The health of the community is more important than the popularity. If 13 year old faggot-chanting CoD player gets banned from TL, great! He would have put off the rest of us, just as Destiny did.
Banning his account is a punishment, otherwise why would they ban it? Destiny is very fond of talking, as shown in that thread, and shutting him up is hardly a blessing (to him). What the mods believe is that merely banning his account for 30 days isn't enough, and so banned his stream as well. Why not just ban his account even longer? He certainly deserves that.
I'm not taking Idra's banning as a "rule that over-rides all else", that quote is directly from his ban reason. There is no other rule. I would be entirely okay with TL unfeaturing him for their own reasons, such as excessive profanity on stream, stupid behavior on stream, conduct unbecoming on stream - but notice this is all stream related. Forum conduct, in my opinion, should not effect stream status, simply because the two aren't related. Destiny wasn't going through the thread on stream, verbally calling everyone retarded autists.
On May 03 2012 04:46 lyonfront wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 03:52 DharmaTurtle wrote:
Ignoring whether Destiny is right or wrong, because we'll end up with another 150 page flamewar, let’s approach this from the perspective of Team Liquid mods/admin. They’re completely correct in saying that Destiny wasn’t very polite or approachable in that thread – quite the opposite. Any other user with his mannerisms would have been banned immediately. However, my concern is with his stream ban.
In Idra’s ban reason, which is the basis of my entire standpoint, it stated “we do not remove banned pro players from them [the featured stream list].” The mods did not ban his stream because the featured list “is an informational resource much like the TLPD, Calendar, or Liquipedia”. Idra/Destiny being a bull in a chinashop doesn’t mean that tournaments featuring them should be removed from the Calendar, or their Liquipedia article should be deleted.
The forums are a place to talk – when someone starts to scream and shout and be disrespectful, TL mods are fully correct in muting/banning him – it’s for the good of the community that he shuts up for a while. Let me repeat: this benefit the community. However, TL took this one step further – they intended to punish Destiny for conducting himself as he did.
“Any ban of his account and not his stream means that he isn't actually affected because the reason he is coming to TL isn't disturbed.” – Plexa
The point of banning his stream wasn’t to benefit of the community, as banning his forum account was. In my humble opinion, when mods act to punish a user, instead of to benefit the community, they’re influenced more by emotion and their visions of justice. Banning his stream wasn’t for the community benefit – quite the opposite. This was a personal strike against him.
You’ll notice that I use “benefit the community” many times here. It is my belief that the mods are established to keep order and harmony. It is possible that TL mods have a larger, more flexible purpose – to serve their vision of justice.
To reiterate, Destiny’s stream ban is incongruous with the reason that Idra’s stream wasn’t banned. It is likely that Idra has some fans in the admin/mods of TL, who didn’t want to see his stream banned and thus found a reason for it. It is also likely that Destiny has no fans among TL admin to defend him. Consistency would be appreciated.
Thank you. DharmaTurtle all you do is defend Destiny here and on Reddit. Give it rest guy! Mods explained banning his stream will teach him a lesson as he uses this site just for that. Banning IdrA's account made sense because he uses this website to post more. The point is to teach them a lesson about not acting like a retard. Also these two scenarios are different. IdrA is a old forum goer and his set of circumstances were different. Stop comparing the two just because both of them insulted a mod. TL doesn't owe you anything and try taking some sense into Destiny and ask him to act like an adult instead of spamming forums on his behalf. TL mods were more than tolerant of Destiny's behavior for a long time. They banned Orb's stream for using n-word before very quickly. They are correct in de-featuring Destiny's stream for 30 days. I say it should be permanent. If you read my posts, you'll notice that my very first sentence is "I agree with you guys - I hate how Destiny uses racial slurs on stream." I am hardly a Destiny white night - I disagree with many of the things he does.
You have 8 posts, and all of them in this thread. Lurk my reddit history and TL history, and notice that I didn't say a single word in that catalyzing TL 150 page thread. Nor did I comment in the reddit thread. Not one single word. Don't lie.
Read my reply to koreasilver, your comment makes the same points his does.
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