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On November 26 2011 18:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 16:59 Zergrusher wrote:On November 26 2011 16:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 15:51 Zergrusher wrote:On November 26 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again? I'm in platinum Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't  Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p 1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. 2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work. I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol. Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough. As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol. On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote:
Great write up. Very well written Thank you ^^ Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times. i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp haha yeah, and with +3/+3 and you killing their forges, their DPS is super super crazy Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 17:51 MaverickSC wrote:
Excellent and well written guide. These are the kinds of threads we need on TL instead of "Split vs making worker" and insignificant things like that Hah, thanks ^^ I've been hearing a lot about that split vs making worker thing in different kinds of threads recently, lol
also VS toss alot of ravens(for PDD, AT, and HSM) mixed in with the BC's and banshees would be devastating....... combined with ghosts with some siege tanks/marauders...... late game protoss bitch smack
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Wow amazing guide.
This will certainly make my pvt more enjoyable.
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On November 27 2011 04:27 Fealthas wrote:
Wow amazing guide.
This will certainly make my pvt more enjoyable.
Haha, I'm going to assume you didn't say PvT instead of TvP by accident, but then I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about having to play against what many say is an annoying style, or you're happy to not have to play against MMMVG all the time? xD
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i really hope terrans use the sky/mech style more
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I love this strat at the moment, so <3 <3 <3, but any idea what to do vs the blink stalker with obs all in? because even if I scout it I just don't have the units out to defend it. playing around mid masters level.
Any suggestions?
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Hey Yoshi,
Tried this a while ago, got my ass served by an amoving colossus ball.
However recently I have grown really frustrated by my utter incapability of using ghosts properly and dying miserably as a result in most of my TvP-s right after toss gets both storms and colossus.
So... I revisited this build and while I haven't played vs stellar opposition (low-to-mid diamond EU) I'm not stellar myself either, so this is definitely viable on my level.
Some points:
- It's extremely fun.
- Works great because tosses start thinking 1-1-1 (I usually build a reactor on my barracks so I can man more bunkers at expansions)
- It's really really fun.
- The rage u get is priceless...
- 2 vikings with your army just devastates observers, u dont even need to micro as there's nothing to shoot at for them most of the time.
- Super great fun build.
- you can recklessly expand all over the place as u have excess minerals --> really important to have 2 production facilities at each of your bases
- I upgrade building range ASAP, I feel a lot safer and it helps immensely.
- I also surround the PFs with depots and starports.
Might play around a bit more with this on ladder, thanks for sharing this guide, man!!
PS
Did I mention I have fun again in TvP???
I'm currently 3-1 with this build, I usually start off with a cloak banshee rush into pf expo and bunkering that up. Obviously not super fast rush as I add the reactor onto the rax. I believe this keeps you safer in the beginning and is great against VRs and those kind of things. What are your thoughts?
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On November 29 2011 04:47 GzStrom wrote:
I love this strat at the moment, so <3 <3 <3, but any idea what to do vs the blink stalker with obs all in? because even if I scout it I just don't have the units out to defend it. playing around mid masters level.
Any suggestions?
Sorry I think the build I have will just lose to that =/ I'm not sure of the timings though, is it possible to have your natural set up by then? (at least PF ready?). Perhaps then you can get a 1 viking 1 raven 1 banshee out somehow, and go base trade. IDK though
On November 29 2011 06:04 OlDan wrote:Hey Yoshi, Tried this a while ago, got my ass served by an amoving colossus ball. However recently I have grown really frustrated by my utter incapability of using ghosts properly and dying miserably as a result in most of my TvP-s right after toss gets both storms and colossus. So... I revisited this build and while I haven't played vs stellar opposition (low-to-mid diamond EU) I'm not stellar myself either, so this is definitely viable on my level. Some points: - It's extremely fun. - Works great because tosses start thinking 1-1-1 (I usually build a reactor on my barracks so I can man more bunkers at expansions) - It's really really fun. - The rage u get is priceless... - 2 vikings with your army just devastates observers, u dont even need to micro as there's nothing to shoot at for them most of the time. - Super great fun build. - you can recklessly expand all over the place as u have excess minerals --> really important to have 2 production facilities at each of your bases - I upgrade building range ASAP, I feel a lot safer and it helps immensely. - I also surround the PFs with depots and starports. Might play around a bit more with this on ladder, thanks for sharing this guide, man!! PS Did I mention I have fun again in TvP??? I'm currently 3-1 with this build, I usually start off with a cloak banshee rush into pf expo and bunkering that up. Obviously not super fast rush as I add the reactor onto the rax. I believe this keeps you safer in the beginning and is great against VRs and those kind of things. What are your thoughts?
Yes, you could do a reactor into delayed cloak banshee I suppose. I'm not sure if it's worth it (depends what server, etc., the frequency of the all-in compared to the price of having to make a reactor). I think ideally you would do some kind of 1 rax expand and then transition into air play so that you don't just die to all-ins like my build does.
Also, I'm glad you are having fun!
I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently.
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don't forget to get building armor!!! (if you get the Hi-Sec auto tracking)
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Yoshi,
This is so much fun. TvP is actually fun again! I've only lost once so far, all the rest have been blowouts. That one loss was on XNC, and he scouted it early and responded well with phoenixes and kind of fast upgrades. My ups were 0/0 and my micro was atrocious, being the second time I ever used the build. I like that there's lots to practice in terms of micro, spells, transitions, upgrades, etc. After that loss I can pinpoint so many opportunities where I could have done better, contrasting greatly with playing standard where I'll be way up in econ and still lose every time in a hopeless engagement. Even the losses are more fun with this build!
I would love to see some more replays, particularly against fast phoenixes and mass cannons defending bases.
I wonder if there are some ways to re-tool the opening to make it less obvious, especially as more Protoss become more familiar. I've also found that there are a few strong timings that seem very difficult to hold off for the Protoss, but I bet you know some stronger ones. I don't recall a mention of any in the OP, but are there some that you like to shoot for?
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Hm as for timings idk any, I guess in the literal sense the 1 timing that is helpful is 1-2 banshee (depending on positioning, and if they're still alive) with the first viking/raven. It will surely surprise your opponent once his obs gets sniped ^^ and not much he can do once your PDD is ready to use.
Aside from that, no i don't know any aggressive timings you can do
Yep I'm going to probably replace most replays or at least just spoiler all the old ones once i get better ones. I haven't been able to play much recently cus of college apps >.<
And yeah it's a bit obvious if they're sharp (or have encountered the build/style before) once they realize there are no marines and there is no reactor on the barracks, and no tech lab on the Factory. But about stopping them figuring out what you're doing, I thought I had this part in the guide but it was only a response/post
Actually I just realized. If he's going 1 gate expand, then his first observer should be out at around 7:00. But he can't go out to scout your base with it since you'll have cloak ready to harass at 7:30. If he is smart/safe and makes 2 observers, then he'll be OK at home but still lose some probes due to hitting both Protoss' base with only 1 observer at home. If he moves out his first observer to scout after the 2nd one finishes building, it'll arrive at about 8:00. So it is not until 8:00 that he will find out you have 2 Starports. If he puts down 2 Stargates, they'll finish at about 9:00. So actually this is quite late in the game already, and the situation I described earlier isn't realistic since 9:00 still allows your banshees to harass and for you to get your expansion out at the same time, meaning the economic situation will still be about the same (you would be several workers behind, but should have killed some during harass). So perhaps if you turtle up and build Ravens to stock up on energy, you can get a third up really quick to take advantage of the Phoenixes instead of making Vikings (use turrets/repair to keep ravens alive). And if that somehow won't work you'll have lots of time to catch up in viking count.
If you start cloak before Banshee, they'll actually finish at about same time once Banshee arrives (i've realized now that almost every GSL banshee opener does this). If his observer is in your base, he won't have both of his bases covered. So if, either with his first or second observers, goes to try to scout you, it will leave his base vulnerable. Perhaps if you're really gosu you can keep an eye on the blur of the observers and the Robo that's constructing them to see how many observers are out and/or if he's moving one out to scout your base, in which case you can try to guess its path and kill it with the raven/viking so he can't see your production buildings or bases, but that would take some really pro attention and a good player should be able to recognize it's an air strat.
So he can't safely scout you until 8:00, and that's not even that safe since he has to bounce the observer back and forth. I think for this 8:00 is late enough for him to not be able to punish you.
The only problem that remains is if he does an all-in early game. Perhaps if you scout there's no expansion (or etc.) at 4:20-30, you can, instead of risking being all-in'd or having to spend a Scan on his main, you can instead add a reactor your barracks for marines and expand. So 1-1-1 expand basically. Maybe even with Siege Tanks. I'll have to check some of MVP's 2 base builds where he expands with marine/tank (and banshee?) and pushes on 2 base, he used variations against MC in MLG for example, and also Oz in the AoL tourny. From there you can add 3 more starports I guess, and maybe don't need a PF but can make an OC cus of the siege tank + bunkers + higher marine count.
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Great build, a lot of times in TvP I never have felt not at the mercy of the protoss player, but this build is amazing, it honestly just completely undermines the general style of sc2 of "Okay I have my blob now, time to blob vs blob and drop AOE everywhere". I haven't tried it on ladder yet since I am still playing with it a bit but in practice games it has devastated. This just functions so well in that most protoss players will go into zealots with charge heavily even on the smallest amount of scouting information. All of which a banshee and viking can deny with giving away little to nothing of the build. Well done pure air build, I've seen others but they weren't as good as this one. Thank you for this.
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On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050 haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case. I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice. Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem. Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg
Haha, that's awesome. I hope your friend gave you crap for making this thread =)
After running through another 7-8 TvPs with this playstyle, I've come to conclusion that the main thing that delays the GG are taking the faraway 3rd+4th. I really like your explanation in the OP why faraway expos are good with this build.
But the thing is, I do so much harassing with this build that the P usually forgets to scout those locations! Which makes them think I'm on 2-3 bases of income+infrastructure when I'm really on 4-5. So its easy for them to think that if they just turtle then I'll starve first because of Mules.
By placing my 3rd+4th in their "natural" locations, I've shaved a good 5-7 minutes off my average win-time =) When they see the 4th+double armory going up, they'll usually GG.
I'm sure that when my opponents get better at scouting expos, I'll probably go back to taking the faraway ones. But at least for me in high diamond, the annoyance outweighs the benefits.
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On November 30 2011 16:35 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050 haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case. I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice. Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem. Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg Haha, that's awesome. I hope your friend gave you crap for making this thread =) After running through another 7-8 TvPs with this playstyle, I've come to conclusion that the main thing that delays the GG are taking the faraway 3rd+4th. I really like your explanation in the OP why faraway expos are good with this build. But the thing is, I do so much harassing with this build that the P usually forgets to scout those locations! Which makes them think I'm on 2-3 bases of income+infrastructure when I'm really on 4-5. So its easy for them to think that if they just turtle then I'll starve first because of Mules. By placing my 3rd+4th in their "natural" locations, I've shaved a good 5-7 minutes off my average win-time =) When they see the 4th+double armory going up, they'll usually GG. I'm sure that when my opponents get better at scouting expos, I'll probably go back to taking the faraway ones. But at least for me in high diamond, the annoyance outweighs the benefits.
Haha, oh that is a good idea. I used to think about just telling my opponent "btw i have 8 bases" haha but I try to stay away from using communication "to win". There's still a small small risk obviously but it's probably worth it if you just want to get on with the next game without having to surrender manually and lose points/MMR ^_^
I wouldn't put my third there but if i'm up 2 bases i guess you can start doing that. Depends on how much dmg u've done though ofc
And yea he complained to me that mass banshees (or did he say air) was too good T_T lol
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Oh yeah, and I gotta say that my favorite thing about this build is how it destroys every build that involves Sentries. I used to sigh whenever I saw something like 4 Gate+Warp Prism, but now I cackle.
Now I actually clear a space for them to drop because I *want* them do it. Nobody brings an Obs with their Warp Prism because the Obs are too slow to keep up =) It's easy as pie to Bancheese the drop to death.
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GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
Really annoying strat that I remember losing to Synystyr against prolly 100 times. I honestly don't know of a decent way for protoss to stop this since HTs get raped, Phoenix get molested, and my buildings can't fly.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
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Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know. 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/335617/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay
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Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
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On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote:
Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote:
Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional). You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
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On December 02 2011 03:30 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote:
Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional). You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it. Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot).
The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
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EPT
