|
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050
I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much.
Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases.
I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else.
|
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050
Haha, I agree
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/f9d66
"wow"
"what a gay build"
*makes cannons vs BCs which I destroy with 1 shot Yamatos.
Most toss are prolly too used to squashing the T's land army with AOE and can't accept defeat.
Just make sure he doesn't have a base elsewhere, make backup production facilities and still remember to macro/micro. About finishing it quickly... it's really up to the toss to give up sigh.
|
On November 26 2011 00:52 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050 I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much. Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases. I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else.
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage (7 base vs 3 base) that I just wanted to make sure to prevent the P from reaching a 200/200 deathball with Stargate units. Which is really the only thing I fear from P with this playstyle.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air.
I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts? I have tried lategame Reapers with some success, just because I get sooo much gas with this build. They're either hit or miss depending upon the opponent's multitasking. Just a single round of warpin can defend because the Reapers won't have any infantry upgrades. However I have gotten lucky a couple times with an 8 pack of Reapers in the back, Banshee+Viking attack at the front. The Reapers are cheap on supply, which is really nice in the lategame.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
|
On November 26 2011 01:44 RoboBob wrote:
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
I noticed a number of times that you could've easily sniped his air tech, because it was in the corner of his base. You could probably have unpowered it at the very least.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
no, you missed it by way more than a few minutes. It was getting closed to being mined out. You didn't spot it until you by chance flew over it with your vikings really late in the game. Yes, it's a no duh comment, but you were wondering why the game stretched on for so long. And since you were aiming to starve him out, you should've had your barracks floating over that expo or a bunker there or something.
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage I just wanted to make sure I never let the P reach a critical mass of 200/200 deathball. Which I think is the only thing that kill TvP air lategame.
You overestimated your lead then - it wasn't that substantial until much later in the game.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
You weren't able to trade with his power-units anyway, since you were only attacking ground. Banshees are exponentially more powerful by each one you manage to keep alive. It's way more important to keep his econ and tech down, than to prevent him from massing units with that tech/econ. If you're doing econ damage, he won't be able to mass units effectively.
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air. And unfortunately Terran air has no AE options of its own. I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts?
ravens have really good aoe, man.. and ghosts are probably very good too, I've only recently started messing around with them in combination with air units.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
I really don't know - I'm generally pretty good at scouting expos 
I would've gotten a lot more ravens for sure, but I don't think I've been able to win vs any protoss that has reacted "properly" to this build anyway (getting air/blink stalkers and then HT/archon). It's one of the reasons why I think the build is eventually not going to work out - it's not cost effective enough against the correct protoss response. Your opponent didn't even know that phoenix are really good vs this build. Also, like the op says, you have to react to protoss air, and that probably means adding on more barracks units. You could probably have steamrolled way earlier if you had 40 stimmed and upgraded marines with a push - in fact, that might be the true strength of this build. If you force the protoss to get air after having limited his economy for a long while, there will be no/very little ground aoe to prevent the marines from ripping through his army.
edit: I noticed you said you get so much gas with this build. You must be doing something wrong, because gas is entirely the limiting factor to your production here. You really shouldn't be floating gas to the point where the amount of gas you're getting seems excessive. That's a big, flashing, bright red warning sign that you're doing something wrong - like not getting upgrades or not adding on enough production facilities.
|
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050
maybe they think there playing that protoss campaign mission execpt its terran not zerg?
|
On November 26 2011 02:26 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 01:44 RoboBob wrote:
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak. I noticed a number of times that you could've easily sniped his air tech, because it was in the corner of his base. You could probably have unpowered it at the very least. Show nested quote +You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P no, you missed it by way more than a few minutes. It was getting closed to being mined out. You didn't spot it until you by chance flew over it with your vikings really late in the game. Yes, it's a no duh comment, but you were wondering why the game stretched on for so long. And since you were aiming to starve him out, you should've had your barracks floating over that expo or a bunker there or something. Show nested quote +My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage I just wanted to make sure I never let the P reach a critical mass of 200/200 deathball. Which I think is the only thing that kill TvP air lategame. You overestimated your lead then - it wasn't that substantial until much later in the game. Show nested quote +It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos) You weren't able to trade with his power-units anyway, since you were only attacking ground. Banshees are exponentially more powerful by each one you manage to keep alive. It's way more important to keep his econ and tech down, than to prevent him from massing units with that tech/econ. If you're doing econ damage, he won't be able to mass units effectively. Show nested quote +Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air. And unfortunately Terran air has no AE options of its own. I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts? ravens have really good aoe, man.. and ghosts are probably very good too, I've only recently started messing around with them in combination with air units. Show nested quote +Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition? I really don't know - I'm generally pretty good at scouting expos I would've gotten a lot more ravens for sure, but I don't think I've been able to win vs any protoss that has reacted "properly" to this build anyway (getting air/blink stalkers and then HT/archon). It's one of the reasons why I think the build is eventually not going to work out - it's not cost effective enough against the correct protoss response. Your opponent didn't even know that phoenix are really good vs this build. Also, like the op says, you have to react to protoss air, and that probably means adding on more barracks units. You could probably have steamrolled way earlier if you had 40 stimmed and upgraded marines with a push - in fact, that might be the true strength of this build. If you force the protoss to get air after having limited his economy for a long while, there will be no/very little ground aoe to prevent the marines from ripping through his army. edit: I noticed you said you get so much gas with this build. You must be doing something wrong, because gas is entirely the limiting factor to your production here. You really shouldn't be floating gas to the point where the amount of gas you're getting seems excessive. That's a big, flashing, bright red warning sign that you're doing something wrong - like not getting upgrades or not adding on enough production facilities.
Nice feedback, thanks. One thing I'd ask is, why Ravens? I figured both PDD and HSM would be worthless against Carrier/Blink Stalker. Especially because he did have Templar tech. I can see Ravens being good vs pure Gateway/Robo compositions but I have a tough time seeing it vs Templar/Stargate.
I didn't think about tech switching into Marines, thats an interesting idea. Do you have a replay where thats worked? I just worry that they won't be very effective without substantial upgrades. Yes it would've been wonderful to have upgraded Marines with my first push, but that would delay my expo and cut into my Banshee count. My opponent went Robo before Stargate so it wasn't immediately obvious that air was coming.
I don't think floating gas is a big deal with this build. It was only the end I was floating 2k gas while being broke on minerals, which is very reasonable on a 7 base economy and all upgrades. I'm still trying to figure out the proper number of SCVs to use with this build. Because its so gas intensive its a good idea to flush mineral workers for supply, but if I overshoot I end up with too much gas.
|
On November 26 2011 06:39 RoboBob wrote:
Nice feedback, thanks. One thing I'd ask is, why Ravens? I figured both PDD and HSM would be worthless against Carrier/Blink Stalker. Especially because he did have Templar tech. I can see Ravens being good vs pure Gateway/Robo compositions but I have a tough time seeing it vs Templar/Stargate.
Well, I have a replay in this thread where I sniped a mothership with Seeker missiles, so it's a pretty good spell. Especially since you're doing damage to the units beneath the mothership as well. PDD is always good against stalkers, so you use PDD when you've pulled the stalkers away from his slower units.
I didn't think about tech switching into Marines, thats an interesting idea. Do you have a replay where thats worked?
No, and I'm not really an authority on this build anyway.. but it's just a notion. Marines are great.
I just worry that they won't be very effective without substantial upgrades. Yes it would've been wonderful to have upgraded Marines with my first push, but that would delay my expo and cut into my Banshee count. even the dps from unupgraded marines is pretty substantial.. but you already have an ebay, so getting at least +attack shouldn't be that hard. Against air protoss, you should probably make some turrets in forward positions as well, just so you have a safe place to run your banshees if there phoenix out.
I don't think floating gas is a big deal with this build. It was only the end I was floating 2k gas while being broke on minerals, which is very reasonable on a 7 base economy and all upgrades. I'm still trying to figure out the proper number of SCVs to use with this build. Because its so gas intensive its a good idea to flush mineral workers for supply, but if I overshoot I end up with too much gas.
I don't think you or me are at the level where we should be worrying about worker supply, and should be making workers constantly until max regardless. I guess if you find yourself in a situation with a gigantic lead, it's fine to start trading workers for fighting units.
|
On November 25 2011 22:40 Quotidian wrote:Any comments on how I could have handled this game better? http://drop.sc/64763It doesn't follow the guide, especially the opening (I'm going for a kind of specific pdd/banshee timing, although I haven't "found" it yet) I'm also starting to think that something like a split between two-thirds air and one third-ground army is better than pure air. The game does follow some of the typical things you see in mass air vs protoss games though, like terran having lower supply, but still winning engagements, and mass expanding/basetrading (though not efficiently enough, I don't think) There were several points in the game where I had a significant advantage, but I wasn't able to do anything with it. By the lategame I had killed something like 80 workers to his 50. I even got off a pretty sweet nuke... but by the end of it I couldn't close the game out and I just got whittled down. What went wrong? One thing I'm thinking I could've done is bunker/pf pushed his gold expo while harassing his main or something, just because it's kind of hard to maintain a position with pure air. But I don't think I have the apm for that.
What league are you again? Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD
You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't 
There are a couple flaws with your play that are really quite simple to fix.
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
A fourth but once again small thing is that you could turn auto-repair on your workers. A couple of times he attacked your PFs (the ones on the side of the map), and 1 time none of your SCVs were repairing, while another time, only half of them were repairing.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
I hope that'll help, if you kept these in mind you would have definitely won, you were quite ahead at a few parts.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050
haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case.
I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice.
Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem.
Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg
On November 26 2011 00:52 Immutant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050 Haha, I agree http://www.freeimagehosting.net/f9d66"wow" "what a gay build" *makes cannons vs BCs which I destroy with 1 shot Yamatos. Most toss are prolly too used to squashing the T's land army with AOE and can't accept defeat. Just make sure he doesn't have a base elsewhere, make backup production facilities and still remember to macro/micro. About finishing it quickly... it's really up to the toss to give up sigh.
I agree though, since I guess people are unfamiliar, they don't realize how far behind they are. They probably think that as long as they can defend and eventually macro up a deathball, they can beat what they think is a weaker composition.
Also, lol post that into funny BM thread? :D
|
you quoted my post, but it feels like you forgot something ;p
|
On November 26 2011 08:46 Quotidian wrote:
you quoted my post, but it feels like you forgot something ;p
Anyways I'll take a look at both of these replays.
Edited ^0^
Also, one time you were building a CC at the right side expansion, it was somewhere in the middle or a bit past mid way of the replay, maybe like 30-40 mins? Anyways you canceled it after he scouted it (phoenix? i forget). You should have just kept making it, because if he wants to kill it he would have to move units over there, and he might not even have the attention/apm to move units there.
But really I prefer just making the CCs inside safer territory then float them out. Early in the game you took 3 bases though and planted the CCs directly there, I think that was fine since you took 3 at a time, but later on you were only taking 1 or 2 at a time, usually just 1.
|
On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again?
I'm in platinum
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason.
I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
|
Great write up. Very well written
|
On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote: I'm in platinum Show nested quote +Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p Show nested quote +1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. Show nested quote +2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. Show nested quote +A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. Show nested quote +You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote:
Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
|
On November 26 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again? I'm in platinum Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p 1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. 2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work. I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol. Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough. As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol. Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
|
On November 26 2011 15:51 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again? I'm in platinum Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p 1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. 2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work. I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol. Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough. As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol. On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote:
Great write up. Very well written Thank you ^^ Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
|
On November 26 2011 16:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 15:51 Zergrusher wrote:On November 26 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again? I'm in platinum Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p 1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. 2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work. I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol. Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough. As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol. On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote:
Great write up. Very well written Thank you ^^ Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp
|
Excellent and well written guide. These are the kinds of threads we need on TL instead of "Split vs making worker" and insignificant things like that
|
On November 26 2011 16:59 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 16:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 15:51 Zergrusher wrote:On November 26 2011 15:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 26 2011 13:29 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 08:18 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
What league are you again? I'm in platinum Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p 1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map. Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him. 2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense. I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him. A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes. That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway. You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important. The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work. I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol. Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough. As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol. On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote:
Great write up. Very well written Thank you ^^ Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times. i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp
haha yeah, and with +3/+3 and you killing their forges, their DPS is super super crazy
On November 26 2011 17:51 MaverickSC wrote:
Excellent and well written guide. These are the kinds of threads we need on TL instead of "Split vs making worker" and insignificant things like that
Hah, thanks ^^
I've been hearing a lot about that split vs making worker thing in different kinds of threads recently, lol
|
dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Really want to say THANKS Yoshi, this build really helped my TvP to be somewhat decent again. Still, i also lose from time to time (but most due to mistakes from myself). Only had 2 Toss players so far pretty much hard countering my build (one went fast Starport and caught my Banshee of guard with Phoenix (bad scouting from me though), another one sneaked in an expo (i didn't noticed that till he had an abnormal high amount of Stalkers ^^).
Best counter seems to be Phoenix (kill first Banshee - get Robo n stuff after) or sneak in a Pylon / Prism. Later on i only lost due to dumb micro / unit clumping (hi there Storm). Thanks again Yoshi - pretty nice write up 
Now i just need a decent TvZ opening once again (2 Rax doesn't seems to work anymore and i somewhat don't like the Hellion opening (be it with or without gas first)).
![[image loading]](http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loxzcme8Kv1qmxknyo1_100.jpg)
Jarppi approved 2 thumbs up :D
|
BATTLECRUISER....................OPERATIONAL
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
