UPDATE: 11/16/2011 I'll probably not update this guide until maybe... after Christmas break is over. Expect it to be more accurate, more helpful, more polished, etc. Currently I have a lot of ideas I want to try out and things still need to be figured out so it'll take a while to be sure, and I'm still getting rapidly better so I'll just update it once I'm a lot better. If anyone wants to practice against this style or help me out with some ideas hit me up Yoshi.855 Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units. Maybe even Nukes since you can deny Observers (omg this sounds so fun :D).
Contemplating whether to share this guide yet or not... before it was moved to SC2 Strat Forum + Show Spoiler +
Hey guys well I just like 7 hours today making a guide [G] TvP Pure Air
And I'm debating whether or not to share it now or later. I'm thinking I would share it now, but if it means everyone on ladder knowing about it and it not working anymore, then I would be sad panda for ending the lifetime of my own build order
Unless, you guys think that not that many players on ladder (talking about Masters) actually read TL? I'm guessing maybe 75% of them know about TL, 50% visit TL, 25% of them actually post occasionally, 15% actually come often and read, and 5-10% of them will see my guide.
Does that sound about right? If it's only 5-10% I think I'll go ahead and post it.
Here's my guide, if you wanna read it now and maybe give me suggestions that would be cool . You may want to copy save it or don't refresh the page cus I might remove it after a while...
Look forward to a TvT Mech and TvZ Mech Air or TvZ Nuke Opening into Mech/Ghost guide in the future
12 Refinery 13 Barracks 16 OC 16 Factory 16 Marine Depot Marine Bunker Starport + Hellion Tech Lab on Barracks, switch to Starport Banshee Cloak Banshee Starport (2nd) Raven Viking Command Center Engineering Bay
Just check out 17:42 if you want to see lots of explosions.
Any typical ladder game... with any typically confused opponent Apparently I have to clarify the purpose of this video. The opponent is CONFUSED and CLUELESS and plays HORRIBLY against my strategy. In no way am I providing this video as a way to "prove" that this kind of Pure Air strategy works. It is simply to demonstrate what a typical ladder game looks like. If you want a good game, look at the GM/Top Masters section of the Replay section at the bottom of this guide. + Show Spoiler +
Sigh there are still people who are still saying the video was a bad example? Is this disclaimer not good enough? It's right next to the video, italicized, and bolded... =/
QXC vs WhiteRa, Air vs Stalker/HT/Archon, doing a similar opening
Neither player played that well, showing how underdeveloped this style is. WhiteRa did pretty good at defending, but QXC kept stacking up his army and losing them to just a couple storms... but either way, this shows that this "works" at the pro level Also, note that KA isn't in the game no more Thanks sleepingdog for finding this
_________________ Introduction _________________
Hi everyone! I’m glad to finally share my first guide. Please bear with me, I’m new to this ^-^; First off I will say that I am a mid masters Terran on the NA server with a ~ 95% winrate vs Protoss on the ladder or in tournaments against Mid-Masters Protoss (The 21 replays at the end of this guide are almost literally the last 21 games I’ve played against Protoss, though I may have forgot a couple, with me only losing in 1 of them), so I’m in no way a progamer. I’ve been able to beat top masters players and even one GM (see Replays) with this strategy too, who would otherwise own me (or maybe it’s just because before using Air strategies, I used to Mech, which is pretty weak against Protoss and something I haven’t practiced in a while), including one who was able to beat ST Rainbow two times (or more?) on the NA ladder. Whether or not this build or air strategies in general are "viable" or "good ideas" at the highest level of play (like GSL), it is a great build for ladder or a surprise strategy in a tournament or such.
I wanted to show make some videos to show things like engagements, harass, micro, unit composition vs unit composition, but right now, as of Patch 1.4, SC2 has been requiring a significantly larger amount of processing power. I used to be able to stream at maybe a 360p youtube quality on low 1920x1080, but now I can’t even play on low settings without lagging. I know it’s a shader problem because whenever something new happens, or is about to happen, such as a SCV being created, encountering the first Stalker attack animation, creating my first Marine, etc., etc., it freezes up for a couple seconds. Really annoying.
So, I can’t make any videos atm but I will definitely be continually updating this guide. I’ll be adding more Important Timings and more specifics and variety to the Adaptations section, Scouting section, and Build Orders section. For now, this guide is mainly for sharing my 2 Port PF Expand build, but aims to cover all topics regarding the strategy (and therefore covering Air play in general). The video you see above was created from Mintograde's stream here on TL.
Any feedback, comments, suggests, replays, etc., will be wonderful! Just please be manner cus it’s TL
If you have a BO (general or not) you want to share, if you type it up I can add it under "Build Orders" (with your name of course)
_________________ Overview _________________
Though strong multitasking is needed generally, this build utilizes the ability to deny Protoss detection with Vikings and Ravens to protect your Banshees while constantly harassing Protoss simultaneously in multiple locations, takes map control and allows you to expand greedily as a mineral sink to secure higher gas income, capitalizes on the strength and advantage of only having to upgrade Air Attack and Air Armor to reach your Starport units' maximum power compared to the 3-5 upgrades a Protoss needs to match, and leads Protoss to either attempt to defend and max out a 200 food army before you do or trade bases at an extreme disadvantage due to not only your more numerous, scattered bases, the lategame power of spell-casters like Battlecruisers and Ravens, or the Terran's ability to lift off buildings, but because Planetary Fortresses require a large army to take down, forcing Protoss to move his army in one predictable-moving, large group. _________________ Goal _________________
You must harass and acquire more intel with your first and second Banshees to be prepared against any 1 base plays, and follow it with a Viking and Raven to kill Observers in order to safety secure your natural and guarantee you a lead in the midgame. Though rushing to air tech early on may make you vulnerable to 1 base strategies, you can transition into a different build with proper scouting before you commit to anything beyond a standard 1-1-1 build.
_________________ Knowing your Units, Abilities, Upgrades, and Counters _________________
Air Units (in chronological order)
Banshees will be your main unit for most of the game. This unit does a ton of DPS and rips Stalkers apart. Use it to harass, force base trades, snipe important structures such as Nexus, Robotics Facility, Forge, Cybernetics Core, Stargate, Robotics Bay (if they’re researching Observer Speed or Thermal Lance!).
Vikings will be your anti-air unit to cover the Banshees. But more importantly, its job is to snipe Observers to keep your Banshees Cloaked. These do well against Void Rays and Carriers and are about even against Phoenixes. There will be times when you can land these to help in a base trade, harass, or as an army.
Ravens are your support units, but in the lategame, you will ideally want to have these en masse. These detect Observers so that your Vikings can kill them off, throw down PDD to cover your air fleet (this can buy you time to snipe those Observers), or use Seeker Missiles to just blow everything up. Oh you can mass Auto Turrets too to harass or kill buildings (they have quite a lot of DPS!). If you’re really pro, you can surround your opponent with your air fleet, blocking off or obscuring escape paths so that he has no where to possibly outrun Seeker Missiles. Late game, when you are rich, you can remax on Ravens during a big battle just like when a Zerg masses drones. The drones’ mining helps later, similar to Ravens stacking up an enormous pool of energy.
Battle Cruisers are your late game unit, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get them earlier. You don’t want to have to spend your resources on a Fusion Core, but against early Phoenixes, you can opt to go for Battle Cruisers (basically, 1 or if he has a lot, 2) so they draw fire from Phoenixes, instead of making a bunch of Vikings. Generally though, Vikings cover the anti-air role better throughout the game, but Battle Cruisers do a lot of damage and, like Banshees, rape Stalkers. When you are rich, you can max out on these (and/or Ravens) because, at least regarding raw, head-on attacking power, BCs are the most supply efficient attacking unit in the game.
Other Units
Hellions are your map control and scouting unit early game. You can use it to hold Watch Towers, scout for proxy buildings, pylons, etc., kill Probes going out to make expansions, etc. If you have enough minerals you can use them to harass, too. Early on, when you’re harassing your opponent with your first couple banshees, you can run in with 1-4 Hellions to cause even more chaos in his base and kill probes and/or Sentries if he has them. Making more than your 1 scout may delay your natural or your third though (depending if you’ve already made your expansion CC or not).
Marines are your early game unit. Sit 2 of these into your Bunker at the ramp to stop pokes. You will need to pump these out for early defense if you find out your opponent is going 1 base play (AKA rush or early-game timing). You fill up two bunkers at your natural too, to keep it well defended.
Abilities
Cloak is obvious. You want this early to punish Protoss who don’t get detection or who don’t get more than 1 Observer. This also allows your Banshees to be invincible once you snipe down his Observers.
PDD is for both defense and offense, but usually for offense. Use these with your Banshees (and possibly even landed Vikings) to saftely snipe Photon Cannons (which will die really quickly to Banshees anyways but still) or in engagements. If you’re caught off guard with Phoenixes and don’t have enough Vikings, throw down some PDDs on the way home to try to survive.
Seeker Missiles are for blowing up Stalkers... and even Phoenixes, Void Rays, Carriers, etc., or may be even Immortals that are trying to snipe down your PFs. When in large numbers, it is almost always slightly better to use Seeker Missiles instead of Point Defense Drones, given that you only have enough energy for the same amount of Seeker Missiles as PDDs (It is rare that you will have Ravens with 200 energy, able to make 2 PDDs). You can also use these on Observers. You may say, it’s a waste to use it on Observers! But you know what, when you have a huge battle and Protoss actually has air units and a few Observers that may or may not be in the immediate area, ready to snipe with your Vikings, your Vikings will target the Protoss Air units. It is too hard to try to snipe all the Observers just by right clicking them. Anyways, even if you right click them all, it will take too much work because you need to kill ALL of them, meaning you will have to make a few Vikings attack one observer, a few Vikings attacking another observer, etc. It takes too much time. Keep in mind that the Seeker Missiles will probably splash a lot of Protoss units too, especially since the Observer is an air unit. Auto Turrets are for harassment or even defense early game if you really need it from your first Raven. You can spam these all over your opponent’s base too to kill buildings, or just drop a couple at a building Nexus to distract him and possibly even kill or cancel it.
Yamato Cannon everything you see! Usually when you get BCs out the game is long done. But let’s say your opponent is not getting rofl stomped. Yamato Cannon does well against Void Rays, Carriers (duh!), but it works well even against Observers just like Seeker Missiles.
Viking Ground Tranformation. Use this to harass or help you in a base trade if the situation occurs. If you have a ton of Vikings and are sure there is no chance he will have a surprise army of air units, you can land them. They do quite well vs Stalkers with upgrades.
Scan allows you to see Observers in case you don’t have any Ravens ready to detect. You can also check for Starports to see if you need to start pumping Vikings. You won’t have many Scans until the late game though, not that you need any, since all your expansions will be PFs. Late game though, you will have lots of OCs with your extra minerals and have lots of Scans available to do what you want.
Lift Off lets you win base trades... easily! If you’re trading 1 base for 1 base, it’s OK to lift off your buildings at the base that is being killed and land them somewhere else. Chances are you’ll be able to save some of them.
Repair obviously keeps your PFs and Bunkers alive. When you can, try to repair your air fleet as it builds slowly and repairing units is 4 times more efficient than rebuilding them (cost wise) anyways. Repair your Hellions too. Especially with BCs, you want to repair them. It takes so long to rebuild!
Upgrades (in somewhat chronological order: Missing are Ghost upgrades)
Bet you don't see these often
Cloak first is to harass.
Corvid Reactor. Get this early on sometime after Cloak, but not until you begin making more than your first Detector Raven. You want to try not to have to make Ravens until you can have them finish with Corvid Reactor ready.
Seeker Missile will be very expendable once you have Corvid Reactor and have pumped out a wave(s) of Ravens, but you don’t really want to halt Starport production just for it. Usually you get this late game, but you may find it useful mid game too. These help kill HTs, large bulks of Stalkers, Immortals that are dangerous to your PFs, and Observers. In some situations you might get this before Corvid Reactor, like if you happen to have [too many] Ravens that happen to have enough energy to Seeker Missile and need to prepare for defending an attack.
Durable Materials really isn’t that important for Auto Turrets, but it helps Seeker Missile a lot. If he actually tries to outrun your Seeker Missiles, like with Stalkers, he might escape but you will force him to run around MUCH longer, giving you time to just jump into his base or such and cause havoc.
Behemoth Reactor – get this before you start making BCs and before Yamato. You want it to be as efficient as possible, and it will take a long time for your BCs to have enough energy for Yamato which is bad especially considering how long it takes to even make a BC.
Yamato Cannon is really only useful against Void Rays or Carriers; if your anti air will be able to kill his anti air very quickly, don’t worry about having to use it on Observers.
Armory/Ebay Upgrades
Nor these
Building Armor should be the first upgrade you need, especially if you feel you didn’t harass Protoss well enough and his counter attack might kill your PF/Bunkers at your natural. Better to be safe than sorry, you can easily repair your PF at home to defend while he loses everything at home.
Hi-Sec Auto Track helps Auto Turrets and PFs but is mainly useful just for PFs on maps where your 6 range PF might not be able to cover the ramp leading to your main. For example on The Shattered Temple, the natural bases are farther away from the ramps at the 9 and 12 o clock positions, so you will definitely want to upgrade this, even before Building Armor.
Ship Weapons and Plating aren’t that important, especially if you wish to use your gas on more Ravens instead for Seeker Missiles. Banshees already do insane damage, and though your upgrades might be 0/0 throughout the game, it means that you will have had more Banshees, meaning you will have forced your opponent to deal with harassment in even more locations. It depends on what you’ve done throughout the game though.
Usually it is easy to snipe your opponents Forges sometime in the game, delaying their upgrades for up to 2.5 minutes each time you kill them. You can either capitalize on this by making more Banshees to harass, more Ravens to stack up on energy for Seeker Missile, or just go Double Armory upgrades so that your Banshees and BCs, both of which have multiple shot attacks, will be able to gain a significant power boost. A BC with +3 attack does 50% more damage than normal. You can always get these later like when you already have a huge econ, gas is no problem, and/or are almost maxed out.
Dealing with Protoss Units and How to Micro
Working on it...
vs HTs
If there are a lot of HTs, (enough to feedback almost all of your banshees or storm a few times), then simply, do NOT engage. You don't need to engage. Just back off. HTs are super slow and can't blink like Stalkers. They can't even kill PFs, though they can waste 2-3 storms killing repairing SCVs which would have been better used against your Banshees. His lower Stalker count will suffer significantly (even if it is just a few kills) from the PF and this will hurt him a lot when you engage or pump up the harassment. So, proceed to harass him even harder. Just remember, every HT they make could have been 3 Stalkers... 3 friggin Stalkers!
If you must engage, then drain all of your Banshee energy by quickly Cloak and Decloaking. Spam "C" and "D" hotkeys really fast for this until you have no mana left (or save 25-30 if you want to be able to cloak just in case).
If he Storms, just magic box like Zerg. Never just right click into battle, even if you haven't seen HTs yet. You don't want to risk it.
Even if your Banshees are pretty stacked up, each one should not take more than 20 damage as long as you're paying attention. A cool micro trick is to go over his army so that if he tries to Storm, he will probably miss the first couple, not expecting you to keep flying towards his army, and if he does try to storm, he'll be storming his own units as well.
Another cool micro trick is to send forward only 1 Banshee or 1 Raven, ideally tricking him into thinking your entire fleet is coming (sometimes they'll panic and just spam Feedback on the minimap...), and if they do spam Feedback, it will feedback the same unit over and over due to regeneration. Sort of funny. You can see this around the middle of the replay vs the "Air vs Air" on Antiga Shipyards in the Replay section.
You can sort of play around by sending 1 Raven in and out of range of his army, seeing if he pays attention. If he Feedbacks your Raven, oh well. But you might be able to get off a sneaky Seeker Missile and possibly kill a couple clumped HTs. Reminds me of Ghost vs HT.
vs Phoenix
Just keep making Vikings (hopefully you still have your first Raven just for 1-2 PDDs, if not you can make a couple) until you have air superiority. Ship Weapons/Armor helps a lot too. Be very aggressive about expanding if his Phoenix numbers are really high (he is taking the fight to the air, and hence won't have nearly enough Stalkers to kill any of your PFs).
You can even send 1 Seeker Missile at them 1 at a time. They will be able to out run it but if they are not careful, they might be hit. Slim chance. But the important part is that they will have to dive in to attack your 9 range Vikings, have to run away from the Seeker Missile, giving you time to run away if needed, and, if they re-engage, they will have to get hit by your 9 range vikings again. Phoenixes attack really fast so PDD isn't as useful unless it's just a few phoenixes vs a few vikings.
You can also put a 2nd or 3rd Turret at your expansion to help cover your SCVs, and even a couple guarding Starports if you have a lot of them clumped together.
In the lategame, Battle Cruisers should be prioritized over Vikings, but not unless you can get a lot of them. If you get a few but not a lot of them and you lose a fight, you'll be in a pretty bad position. It's like trying to max out 200/200 Thors vs Roaches. It's only really strong once you actually max out since the unit is so supply efficient. 1 Thor rapes 3 Roaches and 1 BC rapes 3 Stalkers. Phoenix obviously suck against Battle Cruisers.
vs Stalkers
Lol! Yeah, don't get these unless you're going to max out on 200/200 to capitalize on the fact that Stalkers are 2 food while Banshees are 3. They're not horrible, but pretty bad. It's like getting Stalkers vs upgraded Roaches. If you micro really well and harass and abuse mobility etc., it's fine, but ideally you want to avoid them.
vs Archons
Probably better if Protoss keeps HTs unmorphed. You can easily kite Archons with 6 range Banshees. Just make sure you don't get hit/splashed while kiting and right-click on them, they have larger splash than Thors!
vs Lots of Nexus and Cannons, then Air + Stalker/HT support
So far, this seems to be the proper way to play vs this style of Air Terran, but most players will not recognize or know that you will be massing air units and playing completely unstandard. Not necessarily a counter, but you won't be able to stay on pure air much longer, just like how you can't mass Marines lategame TvZ unless you're Automaton 2000 and you can't rely on just Tank Hellion TvP since without Ghosts, Immortals will rape you. You'll have to get Marines and/or Marauders and/or Hellions to kill HTs and maybe even Stalkers if they have some of them. With your minerals, you can make turrets to fortify or stop air pathways; Turrets are REALLY strong even against Void Rays. Just make sure you're not wasting minerals on Turrets instead of bases, you do not want to be behind Protoss in bases. Remember, you don't have more than 1 MULE!
Instead of marines/marauders/hellions, you can actually just try to bring a couple Medivacs around with some EMP. This way you can stack and EMP all your units if you're not banshee heavy enough, but again, ONLY IF YOU NEED TO ENGAGE. Stalker/HT/Phoenix does quite well. If he gets WP with his HT in it, you will need Medivac + Ghost so it's probably better to skip a hellion support transition and same with MM.
vs Colossi
These guys are actually annoying since they can kill your PFs safetly while out of range. However, if you have a couple Turrets (3 is really good) surrounding your PF, you can just repair the PF from the other side. If he comes to try to kill your SCVs he will either have to run all the way around (if you only have 2 turrets on 1 side) or he will have to get hit by the 8 range turrets. So they're not actually that annoying. They can't attack air, after all. If they get Colossi then during your Banshee Harassment, try to kill the Robotics Bay if they have one. You don't want them to get Observer Speed either!
vs Immortals/Zealots
Pretty good at taking down PFs as well. Banshees can't actually kill them that fast. Use Seeker Missile since it goes through Hardened Shields and Zealots are pretty clumped up. Make sure you don't lose an expansion because you were afraid to use some Raven energy. Make sure you already have your SCVs manually surrounding your PF and then auto repair and make sure you keep spamming right click on the PF or they might stupidly repair each other or other structures. If you don't surround it, the Zealots will, and that will be trouble. Mineral walking to repair isn't going to do much. As long as you don't lose an expansion, you will be way ahead cus he just wasted an army that can't even shoot up, so absolutely do NOT be afraid to have to use Raven energy.
Metagaming
So let's talk about the current state of TvP. The immortal +1 range buff has really helped a lot against 1-1-1 all-ins, but according to pros, the 1-1-1 all-in is still too strong of an all-in, and is too hard to differentiate/scout from other builds, leaving little time to react and therefore forcing Protoss to pick a build that will be ready against a possible 1-1-1 all-in.
Now, what does a 1-1-1 all-in open with? Banshees, possibly with Cloak, even a Raven for PDD. This is exactly the same way that this build opens up with. Throw in a Viking and they might just think it's a new variation. Just try not to let them scout you have an expansion. Your Hellion should kill any scouting Probes.
Since so many Protoss are doing 1 Gate Expand or 1 Gate Robo Expand since those two builds can deal with 1-1-1 all-in, it will be very easy to scout him. Once you see the 1 Gate Expand, you know for sure you can continue with your build, knowing that he cannot attack you early on because of the Nexus. The 1 Gate Robo Expand is a little harder to find since the Nexus comes later and thus requires a Scan in the main, so keep that in mind. But so far, the only build that will kill this strategy is 3 Gate Stargate. Otherwise, if you see a 1 Gate Expand, you can continue 100% safely with this build. If you don't, you can choose to continue with Banshee harass and, if you see he did a 1 Gate Robo Expand, transition into something else or, if he did not do a 1 Gate Robo Expand neither, transition into a 1-1-1 all-in to punish him.
Each Build Order has its own strengths and weaknesses; in this case, you're a bit in the dark if he doesn't 1 Gate Expand. You'll have to Scan at 5:00 if you want to be safe, or you can opt to scan later if you want to take a risk. But if he doesn't 1 Gate Expand, you can transition into something else. By no means am I trying to say that this build or strategy in general will be able to deal with all kinds of builds with proper scouting and adaptation. This is a tech heavy build so if your opponent abuses that, you will lose ( 3 Gate Stargate ). If you make a variation where you will be able to deal with 3 Gate Stargate or such, you might sacrifice your Cloak or delay your tech but be safer. So far though, I'm only covering the 2 variations shown below in the Build Order section.
_________________ Build Orders _________________
Banshee Opening into 2 Port PF Expo _________________________________________________
We can split this BO into two sections; Banshee Opening and 2 Starport PF Expand. The second section gets you into the midgame; since the first section begins with a simple 111, you can easily transition into other builds in case you need to adapt before getting a Banshee or even after getting your Banshee, you can transition into a 111 all-in or any other kind of build; the 111 BO is very flexible.
Banshee Opening
Do a 1-1-1 into Banshee harass with Cloak.
Variations
1) Gas First
Allows you to build a Factory once the Barracks finishes, but cannot start 2nd Refinery until Starport is put down. Earlier Banshee, Later Cloak
First Banshee will finish at 6:15, Cloak will finish at 7:45
10 Depot (can build at your CC) 12 Gas (build with SCV that finishes the Supply Depot) 13 Rax 16 OC 16 Factory 16 Marine Supply Depot (at ramp wall) Marine (stop Marines) Bunker Starport + Hellion + 2nd Refinery Tech Lab on Barracks and swap to Starport Banshee Cloak
2) Rax First
Delays Factory a little but the Barracks is slightly faster and allows more minerals to get a 2nd Refinery earlier. Later Banshee, Earlier Cloak
First Banshee will finish at about 6:35, Cloak will finish at about 7:25-30
10 Depot 12 Rax 13 Gas 15 OC 15 Marine 17 Factory 2nd Refinery Supply Depot (at ramp wall) Marine (stop Marines) Bunker Starport + Hellion Tech Lab on Barracks and swap to Starport Banshee + Cloak
2Port into PF Expo
2nd Banshee 2nd Starport Raven (Starport production may need to be cut a few seconds) Viking (Should finish at about same time as Raven depending on the map) Command Center (when minerals allow) Engineering Bay (Should finish at same time as CC lands at natural so that you can turn it into a PF)
NOTE: You can also just take your first expansion (2nd base) far side of map with an OC, and your third can remain as a CC for a while if he decides to counter attack on 2 base. In which case you should win because he only has 2 Nexus and you will be camping his base to kill them easily. If he counterattacks, you can make the 2nd expansion a PF (for obvious reasons). If not, you can make it an OC. Minerals are not a limiting factor HOWEVER more minerals = more CCs faster = more gas faster. Ideally you never want PFs and that's why even with Mech you see pros get OCs cus they're trying to cut corners (defense).
_________________ Mindset _________________
This style of air play is almost completely different than playing Bio or Mech. You don’t worry about your army size or cost being the same or higher than your opponents; you don’t’ need to engage! With this in mind, try to force your opponent to come kill your bases. How do you do this? Basically take the whole map like a Zerg. If he moves out, your forces should be sitting right behind his base(s), ready to kill them. You’ll have more bases than him (and they’re PFs too with mass Repair) and you’ll be ready to attack whereas he will have to walk a bit before finding or killing a base.
Remember, if you’re harassing, you don’t necessarily need to kill things. You just need to present the threat of killing things. If you have several harassment groups throughout the map but you lose all of them, he’ll feel safe and you can’t harass him as much. However, if you simply let Protoss know “Hey, I’m sitting right here, waiting for you to move out so I can kill you,” he will have to stay home to defend. Think of this style as ZvP. Your air force is a huge flock of Mutalisks, and you’re delaying his deathball attack. Only your Hatcheries can attack back. And are a lot stronger. And your Mutalisks can cast spells... and be invincible as long as energy doesn’t run out.
He’s almost on 4 base and has 63 workers
I’m on 6 bases with 2 more CCs coming and have 93 workers From My View
_________________ Scouting _________________
IMPORTANT TIMINGS TO KNOW
Basically, you want to see your opponent's base at either 5:00 or 6:30 (that's when you have energy to Scan) unless he has an expansion. Whether you SCV scout or SCV and Hellion scout or just Hellion scout, check out these timings. At 5:00 and 6:30 you will be able to know what your opponent is up to, or at least know how to counter the possible strategies. At 5:00 you may not know exactly but you will have a good idea.
First Zealot comes at 3:55-4:00 Stalker or Zealot/Stalker comes at 4:40
Favorable Strategies:
1 Gate Expand, Nexus will be built at 4:20. When you arrive, it should be at about 10% HP with 180 Shield/HP. If it has a little more HP, then he fast expanded. IF HE DOES THIS BUILD, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SAFE TO GO AHEAD because there is no way he will be able to attack you while he's focusing on a defensive, economic build. If you want to play completely safe like the 1 Rax Expanders, then go ahead and transition into something else if you see there is no expansion and you don't want to have to scan his main just to see if he's not going to all-in you which would counter your tech greedy Air build. Keep in mind though, if you play 1 style only, you will be much better at it (though if you learn more than 1 style that's useful too of course). 1 Gate Core Expand, Nexus will be built at 4:50. If you don't see a Nexus, you may want to hide your Hellion so he isn't afraid to expand (try to pick off his probe), or you can immediately poke at his ramp to see his units. If you see a Stalker and Zealot, that's normal. If you see something else, then it may not be a 1 Gate Core Expand. If you see 2 Stalkers, his Nexus will go down a couple seconds later, around 4:52. 1 Gate Robo Expand. Nexus will be built at 5:15 with 1 Stalker. 2 Gas. 2 Gate Core Expand. Nexus down at 5:50. He will have 5 Stalkers and 1 Zealot. 6 Gate. PF will be up in time, and he has no detection.
Depends on your Build:
4 Gate WP Proxy. 3 Gates will finish at about 6:15 and the fourth finishes at 6:35. WP comes out at about 6:30, waiting. 3 Gate Void Ray. Void Finishes 6:10. On close close air positions like Shattered, Void arrives with Warp Ins ready at 6:35. 4 Gate WP Drop. 2 Gas. At 5:45 he will put down a Robotics Facility. At 6:40 he will put down his third and fourth gates; he will have made 3 Stalkers and have just warped in 4 Sentries. 3 Gate Blink Stalker. Blink @ 30%, 1 Stalker, and 3 Gates at 6:00. Blink finishes at about 7:55. And other builds. If there is no Nexus at 6:00, prepare for a 1 base rush. Note: Keep in mind that due to errors or variations (possibly being sub-optimal) may screw up your scouting a bit.
Usually dead:
3 Gate Void Proxy All-in
How to Scout
Gas First, Hellion Scout
1) With your Hellion, check the natural for any proxy pylons.
If you see a proxy pylon, pull your Marines off your Bunker and kill it. He is likely going to 4gate you or put on some 3 gate pressure. Just in case, put down two more Bunkers and make more Marines. Bring 5-10 SCVs to the first Bunker to be ready to repair it. You can have 1 SCV repair on the outside if you wish. 2) Send your Hellion to find his base to see what he's up to.
If you don't see a Nexus, it is likely he may be doing a 1 base play. 3) Check his natural, then his ramp. Your Hellion should arrive at around 4:30.
If there is an expansion, you're fine. If he doesn't have an expo, you can check his ramp; the units you see at the ramp can help you decide if he's going to expand or if he's saving his gas for some Tech oriented rush. If you see [lots] of Sentries, it could mean he's going to do a 4Gate WP Drop. However, it could also mean he's saving minerals to expand. You can also just send your Hellion into the base if there isn't a Sentry; you save a Scan, but there won't be much to scout this early in the game besides looking for a second gas. Note: Try to make him waste a Forcefield to make him feel more afraid even if you see an expo by poking up the ramp. You might be able to see some buildings too.
4) If he doesn't have an expansion, you may scan him at 5:00 or 6:30 (see IMPORTANT TIMINGS to know what to look for).
If you figure out he's proxying, it is most likely Void Rays unless he is 4 gating (which would be a 4 Gate WP Drop). Stick with your build but pump out Vikings instead of Banshees. With micro and repair, you should be fine. Put two more Bunkers at your ramp, mineral line, cliff, etc., because he'll likely Warp In Gateway units. Have SCVs ready to repair Viking and the Bunkers. Make marines, and pull guys off gas if necessary.
SCV Scout(s), no Hellion. Scan at 5:00 or 6:30.
1)Scout enemy position 2)Check for 2nd Gas (wait for a bit) 3)Keep scouting around the map or return to base 4)Scan at 5:00 or 6:30 if there is a 2nd gas. If there is an expansion, no further Scouting is needed.
________________ Execution ________________
Banshee Harass
The idea is to harass him in as many unexpected ways as possible. Ways to achieve this are to distract him and/or attack in multiple locations, drawing his forces to one side and attacking in the other, etc. Be creative!
Let’s take a look at a pretty easy and simple way to harass him using your first Hellion and two Banshees. First I distract his main forces with my Hellion. All of his army except for 1 Stalker in his main’s mineral line come down the ramp and chase my Hellion for a bit while my Hellion safely gets away.
My first Banshee is ready to go in and begin harassing. Please keep in mind that I fucked out my Build Order in this game so my first Banshee is very late and I don’t have Cloak done either (note that it is 8:22 instead of like 6:30). Try to kill Probes in a way so that if his forces come, you can escape through his natural, possibly getting a couple more kills. (There isn’t too much air space behind the natural on this map so a prepared player will have Stalkers waiting there, but you get the idea).
Meanwhile, your second Banshee will be coming out, shown by the Red dot and the Red arrow on the minimap in the picture below. Cloak should finish sometime around now, so Cloak the second Banshee that is now in his main to kill some Probes, then Cloak the first original Banshee and go attack his natural a bit afterwards. You may want to wait just a few seconds before killing Probes with the first Banshee so that he might not realize he should split up his units yet. If he doesn’t have more than 1 observer, you can get a lot of kills and easily secure a victory.
Note: At this point he’s probably thinking you’re doing a 1-1-1 all-in, so usually players won’t come attack you, not expecting you to have an expansion. And if they do come and run into your natural, they will be confused about the PF + Bunkers + Turrets.
The turquoise shows the path the first Hellion takes, starting from the first Xel’Naga Tower (indicated by the Green circle)where it is watching for any kind of push, probe, scout, etc. It goes to poke the natural to distract and draw his forces down the ramp as explained before.
The Pink dot and Pink arrows shows the path the first Banshee should take, eventually escaping the main to stop quickly at the natural (the first Pink circle) before escaping into the safe, vast air space behind his third. Later on you can easily harass his third and natural with this air space.
The Red dot shows the second Banshee that is about to come out of the Starport. After attacking both the natural and main with your two Banshees at the same time, you can either escape with your second Banshee through the natural just like the first one did the first time, or you can just back off the main. It will depend on the map and his army position, etc.
Meanwhile, your Hellion should be checking possible proxy-lon placements, such as the edge of the empty main on his side (where the pink circle is) or the main on your side where my third is in this game. Also try to check any Watch Towers while you scout around the map. You can look for proxy buildings as well, or even hidden Probes. Finally, I bring my Hellion back to the starting spot, the first Xel’Naga Tower. Don’t forget to A-Click instead of Move-Commanding, and it is a lot easier to set this scouting path via the minimap instead of manually scrolling your screen around the map to Queue up a lot of commands.
Keep in mind that it is more valuable to kill Probes mining Gas than Minerals. In the picture, you should go for the Probe circled since you will be able to shoot it 2 times before it goes back into the Geyser. From there you should either Shift Queue the Banshee to kill the 2 Probes boxed in Blue, which will be somewhere in the pink box by the time you kill the Gas mining Probe while escaping through the natural, or you can do it manually. When you enter a base try to analyze the situation. You don't want to, for example, target a Probe that is going back to mine which may force you to turn around or stop moving in order to kill before escaping. Also notice how I have not attacked yet; he most likely does not notice my Banshee yet. Try to maneuver in ways where you can get to the Probes stealthily without triggering an Alert for the Protoss.
Setting up your Natural
You want to follow these steps generally but this order is pretty much the best way to do it.
It should look like this
The entire area is covered
And here’s an example of doing this build on a map where the natural is a bit far from the main’s ramp. Even with Hi-Sec Auto Track, the PF can’t really cover the ramp.
Without Hi-Sec Auto Track
1)Transfer SCVs to natural and build 2 Refineries -The idea is that once your CC lands, your SCVs will be ready to return minerals. -Remember that if the SCVs already mine minerals but the CC has not landed before they got minerals, they will still go to your main CC. Only do this on maps where you built your CC close to the natural, otherwise do this step after Step #2 -If you know you are safe (you are still harassing and know there are units at Protoss’ home defending), you can build the 2 Refineries to finish at the same time you land your CC there
2) Land your CC into your natural -You may want to scout the area for Pylons or Probes first -You may command 2 more SCVs to go to each of your natural’s Refineries so that when the CC lands, you can mine as early as possible 3) Build 2 Bunkers + Turret -Ideally, block or slowing down access to the mineral line or gas. 4) Lift and land Barracks into natural. -If it is a map where you can block off the ramp, have the Barracks fulfil that job since it is harder to kill than a Depot. 5) Make a Depot (optional) -Allows movement around mineral/gas area and/or exit out of the natural area. 6) Turn CC into PF -Make sure it’s safe! -Unload your ramp Bunker and send Marines into new Bunkers 7) Put a turret at the old Bunker’s position, hence re-walling off your ramp -This is preference and depends on the map, but usually a turret in this position is good. Players tend to fly their observers in this area to scout for Barracks and their add ons, etc. If you put a turret here, make sure the turret at your natural isn’t overlapping too much with the range of this one (put it on the far side!) 8) Rally Barracks into Empty Bunker -Unless you’ll remember, it is better to put all 4 Marines into one Bunker so you don’t have to worry about rallying 2 into one and 2 into the other 9) Select your mineral-mining SCVs and turn on auto-repair -Again preference, but why not? You’ll probably need to do it later anyways. 10) Load up Bunkers -With Marines, of course
Hurray! You're good to go ^0^
Expanding
Try to take expansions that are far away from Protoss and/or you. Maximizing the time it takes for him to walk between one of his bases or one of your bases will grant you time to harass his bases, in which you will likely be able to snipe a Nexus. Also, especially when you are taking your third, it is usually a good idea to float and land multiple CCs at once. If he kills one, you know you’ll have the other and know it will have time to be set up. After you take your natural, you can make 2 CCs instead of 1 for this purpose, instead getting Ravens a bit earlier than usual to free up minerals. Put 1 or 2 turrets at each expansion to help kill Observers and give you detection against DTs. Notice how I only put 1 Turret in this picture on the side where the ramp is.
Building Placement
Spread out your Starports and depots. Put them not just all in your main because if he comes to attack your main, it will be a liability. You want it so that ideally, all your bases have equal importance. This way you are only affected minimally if he kills a few depots instead of killing 30 and killing 10 Starports AND Armories, etc. Put the Starports and depots and Armories and etc in safe places guarded by your PFs, AKA behind the mineral line where it's harder to get to. You might want to split up hotkeys for groups of Starports in vastly different locations so that you can optimize everything. It takes a lot of effort but with practice, it shouldn't be too hard. The more work you put into it, the better your harassment will be.
Also try to build Starports in areas where you can lift them off and retreat somewhere, whether it be in space or to another base.
Try not to lose your Barracks/Factory, make sure you lift them off or else you'll need to remake them to make more Starports. To prepare for a Stalemate situation you can just lift off your barracks and/or Factory into good positions in the corner of the map or such so you don't have to worry about it later. You do not want any of your bases to become too much of a liability. If he kills or is about to kill one base, begin building depots elsewhere so you won't get supply blocked. You can also cancel your Armory/Ebay upgrades and get them somewhere else to save some time.
Also, make sure all your Starports have Tech Labs or nothing at all. You don't need Reactors.
Defending
When he comes to attack any base that is a PF, be sure that your SCVs are on auto-repair and to be really safe, just select as many SCVs as you can and right click the PF to get a good surround before the battle even begins. You don't want chargelots to rush in and surround your PF. If you have time you should always have your SCVs on auto-repair anyways though.
Be sure that you continue to right click the PF. The faster you spam, the better. When SCVs or other buildings besides the PF gets hurt, the SCVs will sometimes repair other things even though you right clicked the PF once already. Spamming right click on the PF will ensure it won't die too fast.
Let's say you don't have your air fleet that will be coming by to defend. Since you don't need to worry about killing the Stalkers to get rid of aa, just target the Zealots where they are clumped the most (probably won't be too much of a difference. If you do have an air fleet coming by, you can target the Stalkers instead with both the PF and your army.
If he has very few Zealots but mainly Stalkers and some Immortals, target the Stalkers that are next to the Immortals. This way the Immortals receive the splash damage, and Hardened Shields won't do much if at all to it. If you target the Immortals directly you are wasting damage.
If he will break you, it is OK to lose your SCVs. It is more important that you can be sure your PF kills a few Stalkers or so before dying instead of getting them down to 0 shield and 50% hp only to regenerate their shields later. Be sure you manually control your PF or else it will start attacking random, different units. Target the most concentrated part of the Stalkers. You don't want to target the Zealots because you don't want the Stalkers to be able to overpower your air army. Sometimes he'll have HTs come to storm SCVs, make sure to target the HTs if he is sloppy and brings them too close.
If he comes with so many units that you may lose an expansion, remember to always counterattack instead with your main force. It is more mobile and you have more bases that also cover a larger spread than his bases. If you have 6 base vs 4 base and you both lose 2, then it's 4 base vs 2 base. Pretty bad for Protoss. But if you stay home and defend, you give up the chance to take a very favorable base trade (1 for 1). Setting up Fortifications
In the lategame where you are rich, you can set up fortifications like this.
One of the two main paths is blocked. A Sensor Tower provides extra vision.
The blocked path provides safety to not only my bases but also the Protoss’ High Yield, which I was planning on taking.
Harassment Working on it...
When to Harass
If your Banshee Harassment doesn't net too many Probe kills, that's OK. You don't need to necessarily constantly harass. You just need to be ready to do damage once he moves out to try to attack you. If you're lazy or need to focus APM on other things like expanding and transferring SCVs, etc., that's fine. Sit your air units somewhere safe until you get a few more vital units before you start harassing again. (Maybe you want a 2nd Viking to make Observer Sniping a lot easier, or just a couple more Banshees so you can snipe buildings instead of just Probes, etc., or maybe you just want to surprise him with a significantly larger force).
Managing Raiding Forces
There are 2 major differences between how to micro your harassment. I use 4 hotkeys for my army, 1 2 3 4. You can have each one of these be a different "raiding force", or have 3 "raiding forces" and maybe have all your units grouped in the last one for convenience. This way you can easily go to each raiding force's position to harass efficiently.
The other way is to keep your army split up into kinds of units. Banshees on 3, Vikings on 2, Ravens on 4, Hellions (or if you get them, BCs) on 1. The reason why Banshees are on 3 instead of 2 is because early game, you have a few Marines, a couple Hellions, and your first 2 Banshees. So Marines would be 1, Hellions 2, Banshees 3. I keep Banshees on 3 just to avoid confusion. There are other ways, do what works for you. For example you could group your Vikings and Ravens together since they are support and snipe observers together, keep Banshees on another, and maybe use the remaining 2 for individual raiding forces or other banshees like the two you might have in the random corner poking at Protoss' mineral line.
The next part applies to both these 2 kinds of ways to manage your harass, but it is more necessary with the 2nd kind of method. Use your camera hotkeys by saving locations of areas of harassment or the area you are rallying Starport units to get ready to harass. This way, while you're harassing, you can easily tap F1 F2 F3 F4 and manually select and micro each group of units in each situation without having to double tap 1 2 3 4 like the first method in order to get to their location. This is really hard, but practice this! If you get really good at this you will be an absolute monster. Micro and multitasking both shine through these air strategies, so take full advantage of that!
Other Ways to Harass
Ravens can drop down a couple Auto Turrets and maybe even a PDD behind each mineral line to mess and delay probe mining. Try to do this at bases where his army is far away from or where there are less defenses. You can also put more Auto Turrets to kill Cannons if they want. They are pretty good at doing that -- they're free after all. Just make sure to put some PDD, they'll help a lot.
Vikings can land but probably shouldn't, it's a bit risky. But when you absolutely know where his army is, go for it. Just don't be too greedy. Remember you want to mainly scare him into moving out; you don't need to cause direct damage.
Other Crazy Fun Ways to "Harass"
Burn your minerals on offensive PFs (land them into opponent's bases). Why force him to defend just for you to wait for that moment when he moves out to attack when you can instead force him to attack to defend, leaving vulnerable bases for you to kill?
Burn minerals on and land 1-4 Barracks to block an otherwise easy to take expansion (thus giving you time to go kill one of their bases as they try to clear the Barracks up to make another one). You can just float these off if a big army is coming so you can use them again later instead of having them die.
You can also, in the lategame when you begin to replace SCVs with MULEs, lift off 1-2 OCs to land in one of your opponent's bases to mine their minerals. It's a bit lulzy but hey it can be worth it. It's fun too. Take advantage of what Terran has .
Engagements Working on it...
Base Trading Working on it...
Basically, trade 1 mining base vs 1 mining base. If he comes out to kill 1 of your base, you'll probably have already killed two bases; 1 base as he was moving out, and a 2nd as he is killing yours. It's most efficient to trade 1 base for 2 base in this fashion, but if Protoss goes all-in and doesn't come back home to defend, that's fine too. Just don't lose any units stupidly to defensive Cannons.
Kill Robotics Facilities first so he can't make any more Observers. Then kill his Cybernetics Core or Forges, whichever is closer, unless if the Forges aren't researching anything. Then proceed to kill Nexus. Don't worry too much about the Probes, you need to mainly kill the Nexuses so you can get vision of all his buildings. If instead you are playing a Protoss that isn't playing standard but instead has mainly Air units, you can go for his Stargates instead. If his Cyber Core is researching, kill that before the Stargates, then the Nexuses.
“Stalemate” Working on it...
Adaptations
VS 1 Base Blind Phoenix Opening
WTF why would they do this. But I have encountered it a couple times. Once you find out he is doing this, put down an Ebay immediately. You may want to build this close to your mineral line so that if the SCV is picked off you can quickly resume production. You need 1-2 Turrets to cover your CC/Starports or else he'll pick off every viking that comes out and just regenerate his shields. You can make Marines too, though it will slow down your build, but that's OK since Phoenixes means he won't have as many Stalkers that can actually come and kill buildings. After your Turrets are up, get Vikings until you have air superiority and Scan or scout him to see if he's still making lots of Phoenixes or if it's a Phoenix expand where he only gets like 4-6 for harass/map-control.
VS Early Phoenixes
Some people, after seeing 1-2 Banshees, will already have Phoenixes coming out either as a reaction or because of their build (some people go Phoenix against 1-1-1 all-in). Anyways you don't need turrets at your main, but stay home and turtle until you have air superiority with Vikings and maybe a PDD or two. Then take even more expansions faster than usual. Phoenixes can't attack buildings so he will have even less of a ground army. Take 2 or even 3 bases at the same time once you have air superiority (you probably won't be done turtling until after your natural is set up, so that means you'll be going from 2 to 5 base if he doesn't kill any of them). You can make a turret or two at your main/nat/starports, but you don't need to make your Ebay earlier than the normal timing.
VS Surprise Proxies
Void Proxy **Cancel Banshees and pump Vikings out of both Starports. Pump Marines, bring SCVs to Bunker to repair vs Voids and/or Gateway units while also building two more Bunkers. If minerals allow, make an Engineering Bay so you can make Turrets
2 Gate Proxy **Kill Zealot with SCVs/Marine while walling off your ramp with 1 Bunker. Build Marines and if your Factory finishes, build Hellions. Rush to get Cloak Banshees to kill him. If it takes a long time to stop it, then it may be necessary to run your SCVs around the map while your Banshee kills his base, possibly even making another CC somewhere.
2 Gate In-Base Proxy **You're sort of screwed **Try to get Bunkers up and save your Marines, run SCVs around, but the odds are heavily against you.
VS 1 Base Pushes
4 Gate **Make 2 more Bunkers at your ramp. If it is a Stalker 4 Gate, put them right at your wall. If it is a Sentry 4 Gate, leave some space between the wall and the Bunkers so he can't easily Forcefield them all. **Pull SCVs off to repair (5-10, even more if you want to be safe). You can have 1 SCV repair from the outside. **Keep making Marines and also Hellions.
4 Gate WP Drop, Proxy or no Proxy **Cancel first Banshee, make Viking. **Make marines **Make bunkers about 6-9 Range away from the cliffs of your main where he will elevator in. These Bunkers will cover your Viking, allowing it to hit his WP. If he attacks your Viking(s) with Stalkers, they will be hit by the Marines in the Bunkers. Ideally you want to keep these Bunkers as close to the cliff as possible, but if there's too much area to cover the cliffs at 6 range, cover them at 9 range. **Pull SCVs. You will have minerals to make a CC later to catch up on workers if you even need to.
VS 2 Base Pushes
6 Gate There's nothing to adapt to really xD He has no detection, kill him off, make sure your PF is ready when he comes to counter attack! (not like you even need to survive, you have Cloak and can slowly kill him that way as long as he doesn't sneak a Forge/Cannon/Robotics Facility somewhere on the map and gain detection). You just need to keep your PF alive to survive, so throw as many SCVs at him as you need, or just mass repair the PF until it finishes and force him to manually right click your SCVs.
_________________ Maps _________________
Pro Features
*Natural close to main's ramp (PF needs to be able to defend ramp to main) *Large map *Many bases *Rocks blocking bases or paths to bases *Lots of air space *Long, twisting, winding paths *Lots of cliffs or other obstructions *Mains close by air
Examples:
Tal'Darm Altar LE **-Large ground distances **-Can take bases all over the map **-Can easily jump banshees between the main and third **-Decent air space in between bases **-Rocks blocking third
The Shattered Temple **-Close natural at 6 and 3 o'clock spawns (9 and 12 are unwanted but not impossible; just research [[Hi-Sec Auto Track]], but in higher levels of play 9 and 12 will not work) **-Decent bases **-Rocked off third **-Lots of air space **-Can easily jump banshees between the main and natural, between the third and fourth, etc. **-Mains close by air when spawning in close air positions
Antiga Shipyard **-Close natural **-Large ground distances **-Can take bases all over the map **-Can easily jump banshees between main and nat and nat and third **-Decent air space (hide banshees in corners of the map behind the natural mineral lines) **-Large **-Rotational symmetry allows Terran to harass bases easily
Metalopolis **-Close natural **-Can take bases all over the map (empty mains, etc.) **-Can easily jump banshees between main and nat **-Lots of air space behind third and main **-Mains close by air when spawning in close air positions
Shakuras Plateau **-Close natural **-Tight choke to natural **-Can take bases all over the map **-Rocked off bases **-TONS of air space around the map, can fly around the map to get where you want safetly **-Can easily jump banshees between main and nat and main and forward third **-Large ground distances **-Mains close by air when spawning in close air positions
GSL Terminus SE/RE **-Close natural **-Tight choke to natural **-Can take bases all over the map **-TONS of air space around the map, can fly around the map to get where you want safely **-Can easily jump Banshees between main and fourth and between main, nat, and third **-Large ground distances **-Rotational Symmetry allows chance of spawning in a position that helps air harassment
GSL Daybreak -Close natural -Tight choke to natural -Can take bases all over the map -Lots of air space around the map, can fly around the map to get where you want safely -Can easily jump Banshees between some of the bases, like along the left and right sides of the map -Large ground distances and winding paths
Decent Maps
Xel'Naga Caverns GSL Bel'Shir Beach GSL Dual Site Xel'Naga Fortress
Bad Maps
Abyssal Caverns **-Natural cannot cover the main
GSL Crevasse **-Neither natural nor third can cover the main
GSL Crossfire SE **-Natural cannot cover the main -- Really a shame, since air play is so strong on this map
_________________ Replays! _________________
Sorry if the descriptions are long, unfocused, wordy, unhelpful, etc. I typed them up quickly after each game I played so that I wouldn’t forget what happened in them. I might revise these later and reorganize this section but for now I hope you find these useful, and perhaps fun ^0^
I tried to label each replay to show why it was even remotely unique from the others, but I thought it would be good for now just to include them now since I’m not even in GM+ level. This way you can see how I evolved my strategies (all these replays are in order, I strangely had to fight a lot of one base rushes, and after that I played on Xel’Naga to see if the strategy worked on a small map) and perhaps get a little understand of my thought process or what areas this strategy can improve on.
Criticism is welcome, of course. Most of these replays I will probably replace as I improve or if I find progamers’ replays (I know that GM players have done air strategies before, I can’t find any replays right now though).
I have some replays vs specific strategies, but may be the Protoss fucked up so it’s not very helpful. If you could let me know that would be great!
2 Port PF Expand
Gas First (Please keep in mind that the version I’ve been doing may not be the most optimal variation)
vs GM/Top Masters (Recommended)
1) Grand Masters - Does not quite know how to fight Air Banshee vs Storm/Feedback Example of expanding towards Protoss as a forward base to safely repair Banshees for harassment Close by air. Abuse air space behind his main to move between his nat and main. He tries to drop play me with Warp Prism , my 2 marines + raven (later on , ravens) and later 1 viking help to scare him off. He’s just dropping stalkers to pick off boundary supply depots in my main and such. I take my third at the neutral main on my side. I keep harassing and attacking him in several spots. My upgrades are a bit delayed this game, I don’t put down 2 armories until my third is up and running for a minute roughly? I attack him in 3 spots at a time at varying times. 1 banshee at his third on the left side of the map killed 16 probes, maybe 17 or 18. Again, I pump ravens when I can and make lots of CC with leftover mineral. Even if my banshee army dies I have lots of ravens ready. Even if my ravens die, I have a bunch of new bases and even more production. I end up pumping out of about 12 starports, and in the last few minutes I up that to 16 or something since I’m at 200/200 and with good SCV transferring have 4.5 bases running (1 gas runs out at my main towards end, have a few almost dead patches left). After the big battle in front of my fifth base (the one on the right, the natural of the main where no one spawned), I have many forces left over. As can be seen, storm isn’t very strong vs banshee even stacked and with slow reaction time. I easily move banshees out of the way. Lots of units are low HP but I still win by a lot. Seeing his HT I actually tried to cloak/decloak to burn energy but stopped after seeing no feedbacks. He later told me the reason why I didn’t see feedbacks is because he forgot, but even so all I had to do was drain my energy and the effectiveness of those HTs without storm is almost nonexistent. 1 HT means 3 less stalkers. I’m so ahead, I just cancel the few units producing and make a wave of BCs. He has one base left, so I just rally all my starports and mass produce like a zerg. What this air strategy looks like as the Protoss (looks like the Terran sucks, fooling around, is behind in economy, has no army or offensive power, dragging the game on, etc.)
2) Top Masters - Seems to be able to fight Air really well Long macro game Air vs Air and Protoss has enough bases to match Terran's economy Raven/Cloak Micro vs HT Feedback Antiga Shipyard A bunch of stalkers show up at my ramp, that scared me. Was that a 4 gate or something? Anyways, I defended it easily, and he did pretty poorly (didn’t focus the bunker). Lucky me.
I take my third at the 1 of the other mains, and the 4th at its natural later on. He’s doing OK against my build this time. Either he adapted from the last game (I don’t think he realized I was going pure air the first game). Anyways, I snipe three of his HTs, and keep harassing him. The next time I poke in, I send 1 raven in only, knowing that I was going to win, and pushed my luck; I got a seeker missile off on his HT before he feedback’d my Raven... 3 times. Apparently you can feedback a unit 3 times in quick succession due to energy regeneration? Cool micro trick I guess. Then I just drained all my cloak energy for lulz (which may or may not have been a good idea), and kill his HT.
I get a couple hellions after seeing he expanded to the bottom left natural, killing almost all his probes there. From here on out I try to keep 1 banshee in the air space behind that natural, which does good damage but later he gets an obs there. If I had pro micro I could have taken that obs out. Apparently he gets a lot of bases up and a bunch of phoenix (20?) surprises me, and kills my 10 or so Vikings and 5 Ravens. From here on out I just pump pure Vikings, and eventually own his phoenix and soon after his carriers and voids. This was a difficult match.
What to take from this game: I took the last 3 bases (the third of the bottom left spawn, and the 2 golds; I killed all 3 of his bases at those spots then landed CCs). I could safetly hold these cus just previously he was making a shit ton of phoenix, which can’t attack ground. Air Terran + PFs + a couple hellions (literally) works together really really well.
3) Top Masters - Seems to know how to fight Air a little - Stalemate situation Completely fail Bansheee Harass, I don't have enough economy/bases The Power of Base Trading allows me to reset the playing field Stalemate situation Horrible job harassing (laggy),but shows the power of base trading Example of forcing Stalemate, with slight advantage due to spellcaster ravens
No income Protoss left with a deathball Abusing a good harass path and delaying deathball Didn’t kill many probes, but successfully spread out expansions, forcing him to move all over the map while I eventually moved in along the top of the map, sniping his third, his natural, and his main. He has a deathball left, but I keep re-expanding, and it is too much for him. My army is weak at some points, but as long as I sit around in the air behind his base, he cannot leave or else he will lose his base again. I had floated a building, so because I have spell casters, I would eventually win even in a “stalemate” situation, and eventually land my CC/OC again, continuing to sit behind any nexus he tries to make and kill it when he moves out.
Nerazim Crypt: Abuse air advantage of opponent spawning counter clockwise (easy to get into main) Took the whole map vs 3 base
The Shattered Temple - Battle Cruisers, Mass Ravens, Mass Auto Turrets, Decent amount of Seeker Missiles: Successful banshee harass Midgame transition into mass raven – mass seeker missile and PDD and turrets everywhere (vs archon/HT/stalker/zealot) Add BCs late, ~16 Starports running, 6 vs 4 base (6 mining vs 3 mining)
Winning even when Protoss’s Army Cost/Supply is double Laggy Lose both banshees harassing, but kill about five probes Catch up by spilling minerals into 2 CC (mineral excess due to bad macro, didn’t take enough gas, forgot some scvs to put in gas etc.) Quickly double expand, but 1 gets caught. The other one is landed onto the main on his side, far from my nat and main ground wise. (We spawned cross positions). I try to take my normal third again but it is denied, meanwhile I defend my nat with cloaked banshees and attack his main/nat/third with banshees spread out in multiple places. I land Viking and throw down turrets to make sure I kill his nexus(s), I know his army is away attacking my natural so the Viking landing is safe. If he comes I can just run into the air space behind his third. He will have to leave later eventually or keep units/canons stationed there. Lots of air space behind his main too.
I keep denying his third and he has no more income, even though I lose about 8 banshees to 16 stalkers, tho I kill about 5, I am still way ahead. During this time of pressure I make a wave of Ravens to stock up on energy. This is like when a zerg makes a huge wave of drones to help later on. I research HSM so I can use it so it will be ready with this wave.
I mass expand and run CC/SCVs all over the map and he has no way to stop me. I HSM his army and he gg’s.
You can watch the game here from my opponent’s view. + Show Spoiler +
My platinum friend (watched Protoss' stream) noted that it looked like I was losing really badly and was just messing around to stay in longer. Well, I guess that’s what one may think when they play vs this unexpected strategy!
I do an OK job harassing. No one is really ahead. I take the empty main on my side as my third. I use hellions at the towers for vision. He sticks with stalkers and also adds in zealot/immortal some reason. Either he doesn’t realize I’m going to keep making just air, or he wants those to kill PFs. Well basically I take the whole map and in the end it is 7 base vs 3 base, him only having seen 3 base (and a “random” PF I put on his side of the map that blocked off a pathway to his gold (which I planned to take!) and to my main.
If you want to see seeker missiles in action (although micro’d a bit poorly, due to blink I get a lot of the splash back on my ravens, and my banshees aren’t attacking until most of the SMs go down already).
GSL Crevasse: This one is even weirder. I scout him and only see one base... wtf? Well anyways he tells me later that he took his third at the top right area (the main?). Point is his expansion was later than mine. I also got a third at one of the empty mains. When he starts killing my main, I’m assuming he didn’t know about my third (and thus, he probably didn’t know about this air strategy either). My banshees go to kill the Nexus at his main. Meanwhile, I rally building Banshees to stay at home, cloak and kill all his stalkers. There’s a lot of zealots left which kill almost all my workers there, but thanks to my third and 3 OC + MULEs vs his 2 Nexus production, I’m way ahead. He reaches my third but I’ve already relanded my natural back at the high base area (the area behind your mains) and land the starport(s) that I floated off earlier there too. I kill his last observer sometime towards the end and my Cloak wins. He mentions he still has one base left at the end, but that he’d tap out (guessing cus he had to play in another tourney too at the same time and didn’t want to drag it on). I’m pretty sure I would have won anyways.
(Same replay in previous section) I scout he is 1 base with TC and 3 gate. Banshee harassing around cannon in mineral line. Cloak defends blink push. My economy is ahead so it’s ok for me to trade Banshees even inefficiently. He stays mobile with his stalker army, killing my bases. No defense due to focusing on Stalker force -- Protoss cannot expand I go full base trade, kill his 2 bases and I still have 4 bases left (I lost 2).
Antiga Shipyard - When you can’t scout him Lag, lose 1 marine almost 2nd marine and a hellion. I remake hellion, kill his probe so he can’t proxy, run back in and defend. First banshee goes to look for him, I find him in the last spot, but my 2nd banshee is going there too. I hit him from both sides with Cloak done, he suffers heavy damage from not having more than 1 obs.
VS Unscouted 3 Gate Void Push, Loss I scout he has no expansion but I forgot I could poke up the ramp, seeing only 2 Zealots. I get caught up in killing the zealots and forget that 2 zealots means he is saving up gas for something. I should have scanned but I lose. Charged Void Rays kill Vikings too easily.
VS 4 Gate WP Drop My hellion scouts no expansion, and kills a sentry moving out – odd-- and also 3 probes. I should have scanned him at 5:00 or 6:30 (at 6:30 I see he has a 2nd gas but don’t see all his buildings). At 5 I would see he only has 2 pylons and no tech but 2 gas, so I would know he is 1 basing. At 6:30 I would see his 4th gate is not yet done, so that he must have built something before and also be planning on 4gating (aka a WP 4 gate). My banshee sees that he is 4 gating, but I didn’t scout the proxied Robotics Facility. Anyways, I cripple his economy a bit and distract him at home with my Banshee. I spot his WP, but his timing is a bit messed up due to him losing probes so he is not ready to drop. I set up 3 more bunkers; 1 more at the ramp, one at the cliff, and 1 at my mineral line. I pump marines and fill them up. I kill his WP with my Viking and use Auto Turret + Marines + SCVs to defend vs the Stalkers.
I continue to harass his base and I get a lot of banshees out and kill his last push easily even with an observer.
Rax First 3/3 Battle Cruisers This guy was a challenge, rank 3 Masters but same points as me. But it was still pretty easy to win. He is aggressive with his army, and has some map control with his phoenix. He also has a lot of bases. (My air fleet positioning is bad, didn't camp well, so I give him too much control, also I forget to keep making hellions for watch towers) I get 3/3 and start massing BCs to slowly replace my air fleet and I just roll over anything he makes.
Gas First Stalkers come kill natural/main Taking a far third as a base + Early Base Race I take the far empty main on my side of the map as a third again. This game is a bit different since we base trade a bit. Once again you can see how strong this strategy is when in a base trade situation. I keep my far base alive, which is a PF, lifting my buildings away from my main and rebuilding at my third. I expand to the low ground next to the third (the one surrounded by rocks). I snipe his third, so he really has just 2 dried out bases. At this point I know it’s GG. Once he leaves his base, he will lose all his buildings. If he stays, I’ll just take the whole map like usual. Hanging on with PF and safe Cloaked Banshees after base trading early
Rax First 3 Gate Blink Stalker into 2 Base Aggression with Mobile Blink Stalkers I scout he is 1 base with TC and 3 gate. Banshee harassing around cannon in mineral line. Cloak defends blink push. My economy is ahead so it’s ok for me to trade Banshees even inefficiently. He stays mobile with his stalker army, killing my bases. No defense due to focusing on Stalker force -- Protoss cannot expand I go full base trade, kill his 2 bases and I still have 4 bases left (I lost 2).
On November 09 2011 13:34 mizU wrote: Essentially this is one of those weird builds that people don't really know how to react to, so you'll have a high winrate against it for now?
Its not new, people have tried this before like i said with banshees makin up your army and then bcs. Its good, this is just a variation under a really detailed and extensive guide, I must say.
On November 09 2011 13:34 mizU wrote: Essentially this is one of those weird builds that people don't really know how to react to, so you'll have a high winrate against it for now?
Its not new, people have tried this before like i said with banshees makin up your army and then bcs. Its good, this is just a variation under a really detailed and extensive guide, I must say.
Yea pretty much ^0^. Though I'll be honest, if you do know how to react to it, I don't think this is a "cheese" build either. It seems like a totally viable strategy, given the right map (let alone other BOs, variations, etc.)
Thanks FinestHour for the compliment <3
Also yeah I have seen Synystyr's stuff, he is sweet Though his build opens up with a lot of bio and so I don't prefer it, but I haven't tried it yet and am definitely interested in other ways to transition into Air (as pure as possible).
Wowowowowow, I do shit like this all the time, but you do it way better. TYTY, if i get some time to play, i'm going to crush ladder with your improvements on my shit.
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
I also play pure air TvP and made a guide about it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014. This has served me well at the masters level of play. Similarly (and unlike many other TvP sky-terran styles), I also play it in a defensive style.
Many people don't realise that banshees > stalkers and with pdd, it becomes a non-contest. In fact, if the protoss does some kind of 2-base stalker/colossus, it's an almost guarantee win.
For those that are wondering about the BCs, it is because the counter to mass banshees are HTs. BCs fare decently well against storm and is needed to deal with them.
The amount of vikings needed should roughly match the protoss phoenix count. Too little and the banshees can be toast. Too many and there will be a lack of banshees to deal with the stalkers.
On November 09 2011 14:09 Azzur wrote: Great guide!
I also play pure air TvP and made a guide about it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=175014. This has served me well at the masters level of play. Similarly (and unlike many other TvP sky-terran styles), I also play it in a defensive style.
Many people don't realise that banshees > stalkers and with pdd, it becomes a non-contest. In fact, if the protoss does some kind of 2-base stalker/colossus, it's an almost guarantee win.
For those that are wondering about the BCs, it is because the counter to mass banshees are HTs. BCs fare decently well against storm and is needed to deal with them.
The amount of vikings needed should roughly match the protoss phoenix count. Too little and the banshees can be toast. Too many and there will be a lack of banshees to deal with the stalkers.
Wow thanks for sharing, no wonder I couldn't find any other Air guides, yours is almost a year old!
Anyways I don't quite agree with HTs countering Banshees. I think they just counter Banshees Cloak. Like sometimes I'll just drain most of my cloak energy, so that what could be 3 Stalkers (gas) ends up being 1 HT doing 25 or less damage. Though if you're talking about Storm, I think with good micro (like marines vs banelings) neither unit will be too much of a counter to the other. For example you could magic box your Banshees and even fly over the Protoss army so that any storm would hit him too. Though if you have experienced this differently then it would be awesome if you can show some replays :D
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
this is sick. Im so fucking tired of marauders all the time. Ive been going mech only against toss, and getting totally destroyed, theres also no guide anywhere i can find for Mech in TvP, at least not anything new. So looks like im going air vs toss!! thanks for the work here!
edit: also, ^^ i dont like the idea of a planetary at the natural, id rather just more bunkers and just sit real tight and safe, yes il probly have to get more rines to defend and go into the extra bunkers, but i think getting an OC outweighs the costs of more marines and bunkers.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
This is very interesting. It's similar to the popular mass muta in ZvP but potentially even stronger because archons aren't as good and you have PF and mass repair. The only difference is that it's worse to lose your units for Terran since you can't reproduce as quickly and you don't have cheap spines to spam, instead you have PFs only.
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Really nice guide. I play Protoss so, I essentially hate you
I have no idea how to counter pure mass air. Same thing with marauder hellion pushes. It seems like all the weird timings and comps have weird counters that nobody seems to know yet, I hope stuff like this doesn't become mainstream tbh.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible?
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible?
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
You don't see it often because terran usually has more than one orbital, and just needs to turtle up with a lot of bio and scan to shut it down, and people just expect bio all the time so don't plan for it. But it does occur sometimes, and DT expand isn't completely dead as a build (although honestly it should be).
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible?
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
I used to make raven first in my build and this would auto-win against a DT opener. However, I found making the banshee + cloak first more effective against other builds (e.g. 3-gate 1-star, 1-gate FE, 4-gate, 3-gate expo, etc), but then I started losing against 1-base DTs. I deal with 1-base DTs similar to what I said in my previous post. I save a scan and then get the raven out (without cancelling the banshee). Whilst waiting for the raven, I'll just repair the wall.
The banshee + cloak is an auto-win if the protoss expands behind.
If the protoss gets robo, I'll still most likely be able get some probe kills and then a marine/banshee/raven + pdd timing attack will win.
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible?
On November 09 2011 15:13 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote: Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to: 1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees? 2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote: How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9?
OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9.
On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote: I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans.
Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging.
However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays
If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:
On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote: This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
I used to make raven first in my build and this would auto-win against a DT opener. However, I found making the banshee + cloak first more effective against other builds (e.g. 3-gate 1-star, 1-gate FE, 4-gate, 3-gate expo, etc), but then I started losing against 1-base DTs. I deal with 1-base DTs similar to what I said in my previous post. I save a scan and then get the raven out (without cancelling the banshee). Whilst waiting for the raven, I'll just repair the wall.
The banshee + cloak is an auto-win if the protoss expands behind.
If the protoss gets robo, I'll still most likely be able get some probe kills and then a marine/banshee/raven + pdd timing attack will win.
And actually if he runs his probes around his map, you can just kill the Robo before an observer comes out, and your second banshee should be out in case your first is out of energy =D
I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
On November 09 2011 15:37 Azzur wrote: I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
Hm idk, thorzain did that air style with hellions against noblesse in GSTL. I think Noblesse was going marine tank. So it can definitely work I think. Though hellions take 1 more shot to kill marines now
Wow TvZ really? i was trying to get it to work (without having to stay very long on bio nor mech). Anyways how did that 8 to 4 second buff actually hurt you? Was it because you used to repair while fungal'd or something?
Also haha it is the same for me, winning so much against Protoss has made my Zerg and Terran opponents challenging, but even now I don't have much trouble against them. Moving up I guess. But I remember when my TvT went to like 25% winrate instead of 80% xD.
i just tried this build, the P went blind one base phenixes, which was ok to deal with, i just turtled, massed some vikings, and expanded to a 3rd base, but then he shows up with like 10 pheonixes/10+ stalkers/10+ zealots and 3 colossus. and completely raped me, but my fault for forgetting what button it is for pdd and SM. But my problem is, i had like infinite minerals, and little gas, i just dont know what to dump into minerals, aall i can think of is marines. any sugestions?
On November 09 2011 16:00 rebuffering wrote: i just tried this build, the P went blind one base phenixes, which was ok to deal with, i just turtled, massed some vikings, and expanded to a 3rd base, but then he shows up with like 10 pheonixes/10+ stalkers/10+ zealots and 3 colossus. and completely raped me, but my fault for forgetting what button it is for pdd and SM. But my problem is, i had like infinite minerals, and little gas, i just dont know what to dump into minerals, aall i can think of is marines. any sugestions?
Blind one base... such a weird build. Anyways, if you share your replay maybe we can figure something out.
About minerals, dump them all into CCs! Like, seriously lol. All CCs! It sounds like he had so many Phoenixes that to win the game all you would need are Vikings + PFs (and maybe a couple Ravens for PDD) cus all you'd need to do is kill the phoenixes, which would let you snipe the Colossi.
On November 09 2011 15:37 Azzur wrote: I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
Hm idk, thorzain did that air style with hellions against noblesse in GSTL. I think Noblesse was going marine tank. So it can definitely work I think. Though hellions take 1 more shot to kill marines now
Wow TvZ really? i was trying to get it to work (without having to stay very long on bio nor mech). Anyways how did that 8 to 4 second buff actually hurt you? Was it because you used to repair while fungal'd or something?
Also haha it is the same for me, winning so much against Protoss has made my Zerg and Terran opponents challenging, but even now I don't have much trouble against them. Moving up I guess. But I remember when my TvT went to like 25% winrate instead of 80% xD.
FG from 8 to 4 sec increased the dps. The 8 sec FG was already a pain to deal with but the 4 sec (and hence v high dps) destroyed me. I've abandoned sky-terran against zerg.
On November 09 2011 15:37 Azzur wrote: I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
Hm idk, thorzain did that air style with hellions against noblesse in GSTL. I think Noblesse was going marine tank. So it can definitely work I think. Though hellions take 1 more shot to kill marines now
Wow TvZ really? i was trying to get it to work (without having to stay very long on bio nor mech). Anyways how did that 8 to 4 second buff actually hurt you? Was it because you used to repair while fungal'd or something?
Also haha it is the same for me, winning so much against Protoss has made my Zerg and Terran opponents challenging, but even now I don't have much trouble against them. Moving up I guess. But I remember when my TvT went to like 25% winrate instead of 80% xD.
FG from 8 to 4 sec increased the dps. The 8 sec FG was already a pain to deal with but the 4 sec (and hence v high dps) destroyed me. I've abandoned sky-terran against zerg.
Well I mean the dps is higher but the damage is the same. If he attacks you while you're fungal'd, the 4 second would make it stronger, but why not just wait for the fungal damage to finish before zerg engages?
I played the style a bit differently, looking for timing attacks and taking lots of orbitals and gas as I could, but our opennings are basically the same. I never really used seeker missiles because I ended the game earlier but if they work for you I think I might try them out :D.
Also when I scout them going to HT tech I usually try to attack before storm while teching to ghosts and blueflame hellions just in case I don't kill him with that timing attack.
I played the style a bit differently, looking for timing attacks and taking lots of orbitals and gas as I could, but our opennings are basically the same. I never really used seeker missiles because I ended the game earlier but if they work for you I think I might try them out :D.
Also when I scout them going to HT tech I usually try to attack before storm while teching to ghosts and blueflame hellions just in case I don't kill him with that timing attack.
Thanks!
That is interesting. I was always thinking about support BFH and/or Ghosts, but against most of my opponents, they aren't needed since I can just run away if he has HTs and kill his base instead. But against a Protoss who recognizes Terran is going air style, and Protoss takes a lot of bases and puts lots of cannons quickly while super teching to mass Stargate units with pooled gas, I find it hard vs Air + HT/Stalker. So I guess in that situation EMP, Snipe, etc will be useful. Plus Hellions would have an easy time killing HTs with so few ground units. And if the ground numbers get really big, you can just get lots of Hellions to kill both the HTs/Stalkers since stalkers suck vs Hellions in big numbers, and if he tries to storm he will have to storm his own units as well, assuming his ground army is below his air fleet. This is what I think, anyway.
Allright my first impression of this is that it is very cute. Very very cute, but it is so incredibly unviable in every single way.
First your opening is cute and whatever, but if the protoss opens penix your banshees will do 0 damage, there is no single way you are going to have mapcontrol until you have more vikings than him and that is a long while from now on with a techlabbed starport. A banshee opening is great versus a lot of openings but it isnt even that great vs a standard 1 Gate FE if the protoss isnt retarded. So unless he goes for some risky strange play you WILL be economically behind and there is really not much you can do about it. And how does your build respond to being behind on eco? A fucking PF expo. Then it is basicly fine if it stays on 2 base vs 2 base since you have no mules and he can be more "gas efficient by just outproducing you with stalkers to secure his other bases.
Secondly your build is soooooooooooooooooooooooo fragile, I have watched so many of your replays and the biggest reason why you win is because the protoss doesnt scout or simply doesnt know what the fuck is going on. Your fire power is not as great as you think either. You stated numerous amount of times that you just "retreat" if you dont want to attack but both stalkers and penixes are faster than banshees and ravens and can easily catch up on them. And if his HTs are in range feedback utterly rapes every unit you have Banshees (unless they have no energy) and Ravens and BCs. Then storm is really great because most terrans like to right click with all their units selected and they all will die to storm. Even if you have a response to all of this you need to remember that scenario #1 will occur and you have less units than him.
The only real reason why tech TvP builds dont really work is because if you do them before the expo, protoss can hold them and you are behind. If you try to do a 1 rax FE into Air play, sure that can be cute and all, but bio is still 99 times better and 99 times more solid. It is literally impossible to hold a 3 gate stargate all in with 1 rax pumping marines while you are teching to banshees behind it.
This was a very good guide though, but the playstyle is actually very bad and cheesy. I know that cuz I played this style for about 3 months before realizing that bio was the only way.
Great guide, definitely enjoy watching the replays.
My version of sky Terran is 2 rax marauder-slow/reactor expand into 4 port banshee, Corvold reactor 3 ravens & 8 banshees. I go straight for the cyber-core then clean up/ trade the stalkers. If you manage to get the core, he often cannot build enough of a stalker army to counteract the 4 port. Pretty cheesy but whatevs...
On November 09 2011 18:22 Mr_Wo_Ot wrote: Allright my first impression of this is that it is very cute. Very very cute, but it is so incredibly unviable in every single way.
First your opening is cute and whatever, but if the protoss opens penix your banshees will do 0 damage, there is no single way you are going to have mapcontrol until you have more vikings than him and that is a long while from now on with a techlabbed starport. A banshee opening is great versus a lot of openings but it isnt even that great vs a standard 1 Gate FE if the protoss isnt retarded. So unless he goes for some risky strange play you WILL be economically behind and there is really not much you can do about it. And how does your build respond to being behind on eco? A fucking PF expo. Then it is basicly fine if it stays on 2 base vs 2 base since you have no mules and he can be more "gas efficient by just outproducing you with stalkers to secure his other bases.
Secondly your build is soooooooooooooooooooooooo fragile, I have watched so many of your replays and the biggest reason why you win is because the protoss doesnt scout or simply doesnt know what the fuck is going on. Your fire power is not as great as you think either. You stated numerous amount of times that you just "retreat" if you dont want to attack but both stalkers and penixes are faster than banshees and ravens and can easily catch up on them. And if his HTs are in range feedback utterly rapes every unit you have Banshees (unless they have no energy) and Ravens and BCs. Then storm is really great because most terrans like to right click with all their units selected and they all will die to storm. Even if you have a response to all of this you need to remember that scenario #1 will occur and you have less units than him.
The only real reason why tech TvP builds dont really work is because if you do them before the expo, protoss can hold them and you are behind. If you try to do a 1 rax FE into Air play, sure that can be cute and all, but bio is still 99 times better and 99 times more solid. It is literally impossible to hold a 3 gate stargate all in with 1 rax pumping marines while you are teching to banshees behind it.
This was a very good guide though, but the playstyle is actually very bad and cheesy. I know that cuz I played this style for about 3 months before realizing that bio was the only way.
Cheers mate
Phoenixes will stop any early Banshees yes but they won't stop you from taking more bases as a counter. It's like getting more Hatches ZvP if he goes Phoenixes. You won't do economic damage to him, and he can't come attack you either.
Well, that's why you turtle until you have air superiority, else you don't move out or else Phoenixes will catch and kill everything. Every Phoenix is 2 Stalkers in gas, and it takes 1 Vikings for 1 Phoenix, leaving you with 25 gas. So really if he wants to gain air superiority, he has to keep massing Phoenixes but by massing Vikings yourself, that won't happen. He can't get any Stalkers that way.
About HTs, simply don't be in range? You should know where his army is, and you don't explain how I can't just not engage. Terrans right clicking is their problem for bad micro but not for every Terran. HTs can kill Ravens and BCs sure but then be sure you are more Banshee heavy instead. You will be able to overpower his low Stalker count.
#1 scenario will occur at some point but he will have no Stalkers and you might even have extra gas. If he has more units than you (I'm assuming you mean ground or even void/carrier) then it means he does not have air superiority.
Ok sure I admit I don't know of any way you can, with the scouting I talked about, be able to react with enough time to defend vs that all-in. But not all "viable" builds have to be able to defend against all slightly common builds, as in this could be a surprise build at certain levels, but probably not the standard, like in a Bo3 or Bo5 match where the opponent might all-in you once.
If you are playing at a significantly higher level and could share a replay of an air strat not working, that would be great because with the above reasoning I can't imagine any of the things you said to be too much of a problem aside from the 3 Gate Stargate (even if it's not All-In).
Happy to see this finally posted. :D I've been playing this way since it was mentioned in another thread and been preaching the way of Air TvP to my Terran friends as well, and they haven't looked back. My new win ratio vs protoss with this build is also around 95%, where the other 5% is due to my mismanagement.
I wanna emphasize for readers how important that "How to Scout" section is. I know most high level players do this innately, but for people closer to my level I think it might need to be pointed out.
I think this is especially true because the 3 gate stargate voids is, in my opinion, the most difficult thing to hold off while playing this way, and most protoss players will proxy the stargate somewhere else. It's still difficult to hold even if it's scouted.
On November 09 2011 18:22 Mr_Wo_Ot wrote: Allright my first impression of this is that it is very cute. Very very cute, but it is so incredibly unviable in every single way.
First your opening is cute and whatever, but if the protoss opens penix your banshees will do 0 damage, there is no single way you are going to have mapcontrol until you have more vikings than him and that is a long while from now on with a techlabbed starport. A banshee opening is great versus a lot of openings but it isnt even that great vs a standard 1 Gate FE if the protoss isnt retarded. So unless he goes for some risky strange play you WILL be economically behind and there is really not much you can do about it. And how does your build respond to being behind on eco? A fucking PF expo. Then it is basicly fine if it stays on 2 base vs 2 base since you have no mules and he can be more "gas efficient by just outproducing you with stalkers to secure his other bases.
Secondly your build is soooooooooooooooooooooooo fragile, I have watched so many of your replays and the biggest reason why you win is because the protoss doesnt scout or simply doesnt know what the fuck is going on. Your fire power is not as great as you think either. You stated numerous amount of times that you just "retreat" if you dont want to attack but both stalkers and penixes are faster than banshees and ravens and can easily catch up on them. And if his HTs are in range feedback utterly rapes every unit you have Banshees (unless they have no energy) and Ravens and BCs. Then storm is really great because most terrans like to right click with all their units selected and they all will die to storm. Even if you have a response to all of this you need to remember that scenario #1 will occur and you have less units than him.
The only real reason why tech TvP builds dont really work is because if you do them before the expo, protoss can hold them and you are behind. If you try to do a 1 rax FE into Air play, sure that can be cute and all, but bio is still 99 times better and 99 times more solid. It is literally impossible to hold a 3 gate stargate all in with 1 rax pumping marines while you are teching to banshees behind it.
This was a very good guide though, but the playstyle is actually very bad and cheesy. I know that cuz I played this style for about 3 months before realizing that bio was the only way.
Cheers mate
Phoenixes will stop any early Banshees yes but they won't stop you from taking more bases as a counter. It's like getting more Hatches ZvP if he goes Phoenixes. You won't do economic damage to him, and he can't come attack you either.
Well, that's why you turtle until you have air superiority, else you don't move out or else Phoenixes will catch and kill everything. Every Phoenix is 2 Stalkers in gas, and it takes 1 Vikings for 1 Phoenix, leaving you with 25 gas. So really if he wants to gain air superiority, he has to keep massing Phoenixes but by massing Vikings yourself, that won't happen. He can't get any Stalkers that way.
About HTs, simply don't be in range? You should know where his army is, and you don't explain how I can't just not engage. Terrans right clicking is their problem for bad micro but not for every Terran. HTs can kill Ravens and BCs sure but then be sure you are more Banshee heavy instead. You will be able to overpower his low Stalker count.
#1 scenario will occur at some point but he will have no Stalkers and you might even have extra gas. If he has more units than you (I'm assuming you mean ground or even void/carrier) then it means he does not have air superiority.
Ok sure I admit I don't know of any way you can, with the scouting I talked about, be able to react with enough time to defend vs that all-in. But not all "viable" builds have to be able to defend against all slightly common builds, as in this could be a surprise build at certain levels, but probably not the standard, like in a Bo3 or Bo5 match where the opponent might all-in you once.
If you are playing at a significantly higher level and could share a replay of an air strat not working, that would be great because with the above reasoning I can't imagine any of the things you said to be too much of a problem aside from the 3 Gate Stargate (even if it's not All-In).
Thanks for all the input!
Yeah I understand the turtle into air superiority. But hence the word "turtle" in that sentence. What I mean is that he will have the mapcontrol to outexpand you, forcing a reaction which you wont have as you are turtling for air superiority. Think TvT, he will have bases and you will never be able to get more vikings than him as he has more income than you. If you attempt to take more bases. BAM you are suddenly not turtling anymore and to defend that base you are opening yourself open for a direct engagement.
The way you think you should handle HTs just highlights the flaw in air play vs protoss. You can't kill him really, if he just positions 3 HTs at every expo and has a phoenix squadron patroling the map I don't really see you having a way of doing damage to him. But this is hard to do and know as a toss and it also requires you to know how to play against it.
I dont really have any replays of me doing the air style as I don't really save replays, but I had a pretty cool way of playing it out. What I favored was a later switch in air after a marine tank medivac play. On bigger maps like TDA I would open 1 rax FE into 2 gas then a lot of bunkers eventually transitioning into a marine tank push with combat shield aiming at killing an eventual third. Behind I would begin making starports like a crazy (I used to squeeze in a 3rd, but I died to too many counters t.t) and then transition into bansee harass whilst securing a third only no longer making tanks.
The goal I had was to reach stage where I would have moderatly upgraded marines 3/3 BCs and ghosts. No Ravens as their gas cost doesnt allow for ghosts. From there on it comes down a lot to ghost micro vs HTs. If they dont get the feedbacks of you can easily rape anything. Yamato all the colossi, voidrays, carriers(lol) and emp all the stalkers.
On smaller maps I 1/1/1ed and if it goes those 1/10 scenarios when one of the players doesnt die and the game stabilzes I would follow the same plan as on bigger maps.
Mass Banshee stuff is also just super boss against any blind colossus build ^_^
TL;DR Toss can repel your attempts at harass and turtle while you need to play super safe due to your inabiltiy to fight straight up. Although the style is great if not scouted.
Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
what? this is not even gimmicky - just a new approach. you're one of those toss who complain about MMM and then complain again when we don't?
Wow, impressive write-up! I'm looking forward to seeing it all done but if you deleted everything that says "Working on it..." it's still a reasonably complete guide by TL standards.
On November 09 2011 18:22 Mr_Wo_Ot wrote: Allright my first impression of this is that it is very cute. Very very cute, but it is so incredibly unviable in every single way.
First your opening is cute and whatever, but if the protoss opens penix your banshees will do 0 damage, there is no single way you are going to have mapcontrol until you have more vikings than him and that is a long while from now on with a techlabbed starport. A banshee opening is great versus a lot of openings but it isnt even that great vs a standard 1 Gate FE if the protoss isnt retarded. So unless he goes for some risky strange play you WILL be economically behind and there is really not much you can do about it. And how does your build respond to being behind on eco? A fucking PF expo. Then it is basicly fine if it stays on 2 base vs 2 base since you have no mules and he can be more "gas efficient by just outproducing you with stalkers to secure his other bases.
Secondly your build is soooooooooooooooooooooooo fragile, I have watched so many of your replays and the biggest reason why you win is because the protoss doesnt scout or simply doesnt know what the fuck is going on. Your fire power is not as great as you think either. You stated numerous amount of times that you just "retreat" if you dont want to attack but both stalkers and penixes are faster than banshees and ravens and can easily catch up on them. And if his HTs are in range feedback utterly rapes every unit you have Banshees (unless they have no energy) and Ravens and BCs. Then storm is really great because most terrans like to right click with all their units selected and they all will die to storm. Even if you have a response to all of this you need to remember that scenario #1 will occur and you have less units than him.
The only real reason why tech TvP builds dont really work is because if you do them before the expo, protoss can hold them and you are behind. If you try to do a 1 rax FE into Air play, sure that can be cute and all, but bio is still 99 times better and 99 times more solid. It is literally impossible to hold a 3 gate stargate all in with 1 rax pumping marines while you are teching to banshees behind it.
This was a very good guide though, but the playstyle is actually very bad and cheesy. I know that cuz I played this style for about 3 months before realizing that bio was the only way.
Cheers mate
Phoenixes will stop any early Banshees yes but they won't stop you from taking more bases as a counter. It's like getting more Hatches ZvP if he goes Phoenixes. You won't do economic damage to him, and he can't come attack you either.
Well, that's why you turtle until you have air superiority, else you don't move out or else Phoenixes will catch and kill everything. Every Phoenix is 2 Stalkers in gas, and it takes 1 Vikings for 1 Phoenix, leaving you with 25 gas. So really if he wants to gain air superiority, he has to keep massing Phoenixes but by massing Vikings yourself, that won't happen. He can't get any Stalkers that way.
About HTs, simply don't be in range? You should know where his army is, and you don't explain how I can't just not engage. Terrans right clicking is their problem for bad micro but not for every Terran. HTs can kill Ravens and BCs sure but then be sure you are more Banshee heavy instead. You will be able to overpower his low Stalker count.
#1 scenario will occur at some point but he will have no Stalkers and you might even have extra gas. If he has more units than you (I'm assuming you mean ground or even void/carrier) then it means he does not have air superiority.
Ok sure I admit I don't know of any way you can, with the scouting I talked about, be able to react with enough time to defend vs that all-in. But not all "viable" builds have to be able to defend against all slightly common builds, as in this could be a surprise build at certain levels, but probably not the standard, like in a Bo3 or Bo5 match where the opponent might all-in you once.
If you are playing at a significantly higher level and could share a replay of an air strat not working, that would be great because with the above reasoning I can't imagine any of the things you said to be too much of a problem aside from the 3 Gate Stargate (even if it's not All-In).
Thanks for all the input!
Yeah I understand the turtle into air superiority. But hence the word "turtle" in that sentence. What I mean is that he will have the mapcontrol to outexpand you, forcing a reaction which you wont have as you are turtling for air superiority. Think TvT, he will have bases and you will never be able to get more vikings than him as he has more income than you. If you attempt to take more bases. BAM you are suddenly not turtling anymore and to defend that base you are opening yourself open for a direct engagement.
The way you think you should handle HTs just highlights the flaw in air play vs protoss. You can't kill him really, if he just positions 3 HTs at every expo and has a phoenix squadron patroling the map I don't really see you having a way of doing damage to him. But this is hard to do and know as a toss and it also requires you to know how to play against it.
I dont really have any replays of me doing the air style as I don't really save replays, but I had a pretty cool way of playing it out. What I favored was a later switch in air after a marine tank medivac play. On bigger maps like TDA I would open 1 rax FE into 2 gas then a lot of bunkers eventually transitioning into a marine tank push with combat shield aiming at killing an eventual third. Behind I would begin making starports like a crazy (I used to squeeze in a 3rd, but I died to too many counters t.t) and then transition into bansee harass whilst securing a third only no longer making tanks.
The goal I had was to reach stage where I would have moderatly upgraded marines 3/3 BCs and ghosts. No Ravens as their gas cost doesnt allow for ghosts. From there on it comes down a lot to ghost micro vs HTs. If they dont get the feedbacks of you can easily rape anything. Yamato all the colossi, voidrays, carriers(lol) and emp all the stalkers.
On smaller maps I 1/1/1ed and if it goes those 1/10 scenarios when one of the players doesnt die and the game stabilzes I would follow the same plan as on bigger maps.
Mass Banshee stuff is also just super boss against any blind colossus build ^_^
TL;DR Toss can repel your attempts at harass and turtle while you need to play super safe due to your inabiltiy to fight straight up. Although the style is great if not scouted.
I still don't think I quite understand. What I mean by turtle is turtle (no banshees to harass, just vikings to fight phoenixes) but take bases at the same time because he can't get any Stalkers to attack you since he'll need to make all Phoenixes to beat your Vikings. He could make Zealots but if you just mix in 1 Banshee or cut a couple Vikings to get up a PF he shouldn't be able to kill it.
Ok but let's take the situation Toss knows the strategy and puts 3 HTs at each base. Well all you would need to do is fly around with your own Viking army which will be stronger than his Phoenixes since also has so many HTs which a few Banshees which will easily be able to kill Cannons even without Ravens. Even if your micro is bad and you can't attack him, he can't come kill you either. Once his HTs move out, you can go in and attack. Let's say his economy is a bit higher so he can match your anti air power and also have HTs and Stalkers. He can't possibly have enough Stalkers to go around and kill your PFs. If he brings HTs to storm then that means there's less defense at home.
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
what? this is not even gimmicky - just a new approach. you're one of those toss who complain about MMM and then complain again when we don't?
;_; thank you.
On November 10 2011 00:42 aintz wrote: wont you be miles behind if your cloaked banshees dont do any damage and you have a PF instead of a 2nd OC and less worker count?
Check some of the replays where it says "unsuccessful Banshee harass" or "didn't kill many probes" or "lose my first two banshees due to lag", etc. For example the replay against Top Master Protoss on Shakuras, the one about Stalemating. I do almost no damage to him cus he's a great Protoss and knows how to defend his mineral lines (and I lagged so I couldn't save my Banshees). But simply due to the style, I base traded to even up the score.
Also, minerals are not necessary in this build. You lose a lot of minerals without a 2nd OC over time yes, but in order to defend that OC you would need so many marines/bunkers. The point in getting a PF is because it is a fast, efficient way to cover the weakness of your tech-hevay build -- allowing your opponent to force an engagement because your head-on army strength is weak early on. The point of this strategy is that you never have to engage your opponent; you have full control. The PF will stop any kind of early or mid game push.
I think in the replays where I didn't successfully Banshee harass, i was also behind in SCVs (since he can chronoboost, I don't have a 2nd OC, and my expansion is way way later than the 1 gate Expands or such). I think the Stalemate replay definitely was a good example of that.
On November 10 2011 00:54 HardMacro wrote: Dude, nice build.
That toss in the video had NO multitask whatsoever lol past early game, your harass made him float 2.5k on 2 bases rofl, he was pretty bad.
Haha, yeah. We actually both had 102 apm by the end of the game, but as you can see from the video he had strong macro (using so many Chronoboost even lategame!) but not multitasking. He did not sit at his mineral lines or such as much as he should have. But the point of that example is to show the typical confused, surprised Protoss opponent who doesn't know what the fuck to do xD (rather than show the strategy vs a high leveled player who knows how to fight it). For example he was making bases only as he scouted mine. When he saw my third, he began to take his fourth. Little did he know I already had 6 bases xD. Also, when he finally brought his stalkers into his main to wait there, he split up and brought his zealots and immortals to his natural, as if expecting me to have an "actual" ground army xD. Finally he realized that i didn't have any ground units and he sent the zealots/immortals to try to kill my super safe natural while his stalkers dealt with my fleet.
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
Ya know, I don't necessarily disagree with you but there are just as many toss players that 4-gate or 3-gate voidray all-in every single game. Care to explain that one to me?
Great build, but im sad that you revealed it xD. I´m playing air vs protoss for a couple of month now (bit more marine and helion heavy then u do) and have to say its a lot of fun and successful (85-90% winrating). Your build seems more elaborate then mine and i will definitly have a very close look at it. *Thumps up*
NTT used this in the beta and early in the game about a year ago. He pretty much went pure air and planetary fortresses every TvP and trashed players like White-Ra and Socke with it
On November 10 2011 01:34 Pulimuli wrote: NTT used this in the beta and early in the game about a year ago. He pretty much went pure air and planetary fortresses every TvP and trashed players like White-Ra and Socke with it
Wow really? xD I just searched him up on liquipedia, it seems he's retired now?
On November 10 2011 01:29 Dragt wrote: Great build, but im sad that you revealed it xD. I´m playing air vs protoss for a couple of month now (bit more marine and helion heavy then u do) and have to say its a lot of fun and successful (85-90% winrating). Your build seems more elaborate then mine and i will definitly have a very close look at it. *Thumps up*
I'm a bit sad too. But the BO I use looks just like a 111 or 111 all-in or banshee opening or 2 port xD So they can't really tell what I'm up to anyways.
Wow this is a super neat playstyle, kinda makes me wish I played Terran haha. I'd thought about this but never more than just a quick idle thought, so cool to see someone actually put together a really well-written detailed guide about it
This seems to rely heavily on Protoss not scouting you at all...for example, 1gate expo -> 3gate robo means I can poke early enough to see that you are teching (only a handful of marines at the ramp), make a few observers because I don't need immortals right away and it never hurts to spot potential drops/expansions/pokes/whatever, then expanding once I see your PF at your natural. I now have 3 bases, and I can go for a gateway-heavy all-in if you are greedy, and if you are as defensive as you have to be, I can expand yet again. What do you do against a passive/greedy style like this?
EDIT: not PF, CC. I can take my 3rd once I see the CC and my 4th once I see the PF. My bad.
2-0 so far with your build (high diamond). First game he must have had a real quick scout as he started going heavy phoenix off of 2 base. Was able to out expand and out produce vikings. Second game opponent went heavy robo into late-ish phoenix production. Was able to snipe off his third before it morphed in 3 times. PF at natural held the counter attack with ease. Was able to get up to 5 base to his 2.5 then I won the main engage...gg.
Couple notes from my experience:
I'm having trouble with the constant harass portion of the build. Usually I can do some damage with my first 2 banshees, but after that I get shut down pretty hard. Instead I've been forming little banshee squads (~5-7) to snipe off any attempts at expanding. Seems to be working so far.
Many toss are rage-a-holics.
Thanks for the awesome guide. Will keep you updated.
This is an extraordinarily detailed guide o.O Thanks for the enlightenment, it was a great read! I'll have to give it a go sometime... and watch for it when I play toss =p
This is one of the best guides I've seen. Good job, and thanks! I've definitely lost to this before and it'll kill any protoss who doesn't expect it and/or tries to play standard.
Wow really detailed guide, quite a read. gj I've been getting really frustrated with TvP. If it gets much worse I'll consider trying this out for a while, though it might take quite a while to learn since it seems like a completely different play style.
well Sky Terran is viable since ages and the most scary composition of T imho, because there isn't much you can do against it as P since it pins you down in your bases and observer are so fragile.
despite many saying that bio is the only option in PvT; it is not !!!. every tech path of terran is viable if executed well enough to cover some early game weaknesses. . you can even transition into full mech play of a Sky opening on certain maps.
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
How bout this, Marauders. nuff said, do you really think going maraduer only is fun? its not, not at all, and it can die just easily as this strat, timing pushes, forcefields, storms/colossus, im just tired of going marauders, and only marauders, while mixing in viking and/or ghosts. Yes, its the norm to go for marauders, but christ it is not fullfilling in any way, this style requires way more micro and thought to pull of properly. And as i mentioned before, mech is damn awful vs toss, so frankly, its either marauders, or something like this strat. ofc, this is all my opinion, but seriously, ive been trying mech vs toss for awhile, and it just doesnt work well.
My terran friend has done this to me very often. If you go ground as toss vs. this you're dead. It's so easy for vikings to snipe the obs. and have the banshees clear everything up. The only real option is to go pure air as well. Start with pheonix, transition to some carriers and then void rays for the BC's. Expand quick and use a lot of cannons. Still very difficult to deal with even using pure air though.
Very interesting guide. Funnily enough, when I started playing SC2 I did something very similar all the time vs Protoss. But I stopped because although I was winning alot, the games took FOREVER to finish because they always went 3+ bases. Also because it required much more multitasking than a-moving bio balls. =)
My build wasn't nearly as refined as yours. I never transitioned to BC or built up a Raven ball. Instead I went double armory air ups. But all the core elements were there. 1-1-1 cloak opening into PF natural into PF hidden third into mass starlabs. Pure Viking/Banshee/Raven force, no Rax units, just 1 or 2 Hellion scouts.
From what I remember, the most deadly counter to this build is an early Immortal push. If you look at the replay titled "TvP Air - 3 Hidden Bases HSM", you can definitely see the weakness of this build. The platinum player could've roflstomped the natural+main with the 2 base Immortal+Gateway army easily, if he decided to engage. Instead he just turned around and went home for some unknown reason. I dunno, maybe he didn't consider that there could be a hidden third.
My biggest concern about this build is that because it opens 1-1-1 chances are pretty good the P is going to make Immortals, expecting the 1-1-1 allin. Which kinda hard counters the PF natural. But the build is still worth looking at, especially on big maps where Immortals have a long way to waddle.
On November 10 2011 01:55 CreativeAlias wrote: This seems to rely heavily on Protoss not scouting you at all...for example, 1gate expo -> 3gate robo means I can poke early enough to see that you are teching (only a handful of marines at the ramp), make a few observers because I don't need immortals right away and it never hurts to spot potential drops/expansions/pokes/whatever, then expanding once I see your PF at your natural. I now have 3 bases, and I can go for a gateway-heavy all-in if you are greedy, and if you are as defensive as you have to be, I can expand yet again. What do you do against a passive/greedy style like this?
EDIT: not PF, CC. I can take my 3rd once I see the CC and my 4th once I see the PF. My bad.
I'm not quite sure, but can you really be sure I'm not just 1-1-1 all-ining and take a third like that? Maybe I'll find someone test this out cus I haven't fought anyone who took a fast third in response.
On November 10 2011 04:09 jrdn wrote: 2-0 so far with your build (high diamond). First game he must have had a real quick scout as he started going heavy phoenix off of 2 base. Was able to out expand and out produce vikings. Second game opponent went heavy robo into late-ish phoenix production. Was able to snipe off his third before it morphed in 3 times. PF at natural held the counter attack with ease. Was able to get up to 5 base to his 2.5 then I won the main engage...gg.
Couple notes from my experience:
I'm having trouble with the constant harass portion of the build. Usually I can do some damage with my first 2 banshees, but after that I get shut down pretty hard. Instead I've been forming little banshee squads (~5-7) to snipe off any attempts at expanding. Seems to be working so far.
Many toss are rage-a-holics.
Thanks for the awesome guide. Will keep you updated.
I'll expand on the harassing part. But there are times (like in all my replays) where I do feel "shut down" just for a bit, where he has a lot of stalkers and it is hard to harass. Even though I could be active with my units, instead I just prefer to stay passive and get a slightly larger force (To make sure I can snipe Obs without losing too much, etc.). So don't be afraid to just sit in your base a while and resume harassing later. If you stop for a while he might get confused and think you're not doing pure air or something.
And yeah a lot of them rage One of them raged and said he was tired of 1-1-1 all-in shit, and I responded "lol, this isn't 1-1-1 all-in it's pure air style)"
On November 10 2011 05:47 kusu wrote: Wow thanks so much <3! definitely gonna try this out. I'll come back and report !
I'd also like to note that if you're gonna do gas first and you see him Fast Expanding, you can probably do Debo's marine-hellion shit! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_ZWg-9gsnA
I've heard about Debo and thought he was a really cool player. Now I see this video and I'm like, haha so this is Debo? That is an awesome opening lol! Thanks for sharing.
On November 10 2011 10:11 RoboBob wrote: Very interesting guide. Funnily enough, when I started playing SC2 I did something very similar all the time vs Protoss. But I stopped because although I was winning alot, the games took FOREVER to finish because they always went 3+ bases. Also because it required much more multitasking than a-moving bio balls. =)
My build wasn't nearly as refined as yours. I never transitioned to BC or built up a Raven ball. Instead I went double armory air ups. But all the core elements were there. 1-1-1 cloak opening into PF natural into PF hidden third into mass starlabs. Pure Viking/Banshee/Raven force, no Rax units, just 1 or 2 Hellion scouts.
From what I remember, the most deadly counter to this build is an early Immortal push. If you look at the replay titled "TvP Air - 3 Hidden Bases HSM", you can definitely see the weakness of this build. The platinum player could've roflstomped the natural+main with the 2 base Immortal+Gateway army easily, if he decided to engage. Instead he just turned around and went home for some unknown reason. I dunno, maybe he didn't consider that there could be a hidden third.
My biggest concern about this build is that because it opens 1-1-1 chances are pretty good the P is going to make Immortals, expecting the 1-1-1 allin. Which kinda hard counters the PF natural. But the build is still worth looking at, especially on big maps where Immortals have a long way to waddle.
Thumbs up!
Thanks for sharing! Well first I want to clarify, it was unclear but the player was mid masters, but my platinum friend player was watching the Protoss' stream, not playing as the Protoss.
I don't think an early Immortal push will do the trick. If you have enough I don't think you possibly can have enough stalkers to deal with the banshees I have. But I'll take a look at it sometime.
Also yeah from his vision it definitely looked like he didn't know or consider I had a third since he pulled back without even poking at the normal third position (which I took as my fourth IIRC). He sees it later and then gets a fourth, but really i already have went up to 6 base xD
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Not sure if it's the best way nor a real counter, but a good way of dealing with this style seems to be taking a lot of expansions early just like Terran and make lots of well placed Photon Cannons to slow down Banshee Harass and burn some energy for PDDs while making Phoenixes. Tech to HTs and, when appropriate, add Void Rays and Carriers and a few support Stalkers to start harassing or killing Terran bases. I mentioned something about this in the "vs lots of base and air" section
vs Lots of Nexus and Cannons, then Air + Stalker/HT support
So far, this seems to be the proper way to play vs this style of Air Terran, but most players will not recognize or know that you will be massing air units and playing completely unstandard. Not necessarily a counter, but you won't be able to stay on pure air much longer, just like how you can't mass Marines lategame TvZ unless you're Automaton 2000 and you can't rely on just Tank Hellion TvP since without Ghosts, Immortals will rape you. You'll have to get Marines and/or Marauders and/or Hellions to kill HTs and maybe even Stalkers if they have some of them. With your minerals, you can make turrets to fortify or stop air pathways; Turrets are REALLY strong even against Void Rays. Just make sure you're not wasting minerals on Turrets instead of bases, you do not want to be behind Protoss in bases. Remember, you don't have more than 1 MULE!
There was a replay of someone really owning me by playing air style, I'll find it sometime!
You can also just 3 Gate Stargate to kill him...
For more standard play, you can watch the first and third "Top Masters" replay. Against Stalker/HT and then Air vs Air, check out the second "Top Masters" replay.
On November 10 2011 04:17 coL.rsvp wrote: This is one of the best guides I've seen. Good job, and thanks! I've definitely lost to this before and it'll kill any protoss who doesn't expect it and/or tries to play standard.
Thanks a lot! It's good to hear that it works even in GM+ level still . I was thinking maybe at higher levels vs terran air, "standard" (aka mainly ground units) could deal with terran air, but I guess not? If it's air vs air is it about equal or is Protoss significantly advantaged? Cus I was thinking if you're both pumping Phoenixes and Vikings for air superiority, if you make PFs like I suggest then that means you won't have MULEs and Protoss, with chronoboost, should be able to out-econ you easily. But perhaps if the "proper" response is air vs air, then there wouldn't be a need to get PFs instead of OCs.
On November 10 2011 14:47 ggofthejungle wrote: I'm assuming this won't work in HOTS because of that new protoss unit that deals splash damage?
I'm hoping not. But what Dustin and David Kim said about Tempest is contradictory. One of the said something like "it basically mass counters all air units" and "so you can gain air superiority" i think that was Dustin. But David Kim seemed to talk about it more like it was just to counter Mass Mutas, aka lots of light flying units. From what it looks like David Kim is more right. Anyways, I can't imagine it being too hard to deal with Mass Tempest since Vikings have 9 Range and you can Yamato them too. Just split up your forces, I guess. Vikings have 9 range so that won't be too hard and BCs are pretty big so magic boxing them will be great. Tempests aren't that fast though so you can still harass him in multiple locations. I wonder if you can even PDD the Tempest xD (probably not)
On November 10 2011 16:00 HTX wrote: You probably mentioned it somewhere but to read through it will take day.
thje combination of cloacked banshee and viking (2-3) can be painfully strong in the early to midgame if P doesnt have enough observer.
Scan... Viking will shoot observer....do damage with banshee.
Anyway, good guide.
I've actually been thinking about making more OCs for Scans so that you can save gas for banshees instead of Ravens (up to 2 more bashees per raven). Except for lategame where the banshees will take too much food (6 food per 2 food), it might be better to have more banshees than to have PDD/Seeker Missile (which needs to be upgraded anyways). Do you have any input on this?
On November 10 2011 16:13 treekiller wrote: No need to worry about people copying your build. Its not gonna change the metagame. Its a nice cheese though, grats.
Please read again, I was worried people would figure out this build and know how to play against it. To say something won't change the metagame is false. Every single little piece of information that even one player receives will change the metagame. That's what the metagame is; all the different outside aspects affecting any game of Starcraft.
Also, it's not a cheese, so I can't take your congratulations. You don't automatically lose if this build is scouted, and there's nothing to hide either.
I've seen you post before, why are you so cynical?
Its times like these I think playing terran would be fun(to try this build). Or playing Protoss(Seeing a new build and being surprised). Really creative and very detailed guide.
On November 10 2011 21:10 tuestresfat wrote: ugh god, I'm pretty sure you raped me on ladder the other day. It's people like you that keep ladder interesting though sick post
Heheh what is your username? I don't recognize "tuestresfat". If I played you recently (within a few days) our replay should be there xD And thanks
I wonder if we'll ever get to see something like this live in a pro tournament. It's been a while since I've seen anything OTHER than a 1-1-1 or bio... Mech is rare enough as it is, Air is even rarer...
Hey, just tried this out, but got owned by the guy simply running over my main. He placed cannons in exp, and altho i managed to kill his third, he just rolled me. My macro was relatively poor, but i dont think another 5-6 banshees would've helped me. I was floating a lot of minerals, but not that much gas. The exp was quite protected, but went down because of lack of an army. Maybe i misclicked repair on the PF natural as well, who knows
It was fun while it lasted, on mid-diamond EU ladder.
I love this idea. Making your natural a PF just so you can use banshees like mutalisks makes me smile.
I doubt it'll catch on with the pros, since it does seem vulnerable to huge counterattacks (blinking up into your main, mothership mass recall scenarios, etc.)
I'd get neosteel frames for my bunkers too, just to be ultra-safe.
On November 11 2011 04:12 OlDan wrote: Hey, just tried this out, but got owned by the guy simply running over my main. He placed cannons in exp, and altho i managed to kill his third, he just rolled me. My macro was relatively poor, but i dont think another 5-6 banshees would've helped me. I was floating a lot of minerals, but not that much gas. The exp was quite protected, but went down because of lack of an army. Maybe i misclicked repair on the PF natural as well, who knows
It was fun while it lasted, on mid-diamond EU ladder.
If you'd like you can upload the replay so I can comment on it
On November 11 2011 04:28 Honeybadger wrote: I love this idea. Making your natural a PF just so you can use banshees like mutalisks makes me smile.
I doubt it'll catch on with the pros, since it does seem vulnerable to huge counterattacks (blinking up into your main, mothership mass recall scenarios, etc.)
I'd get neosteel frames for my bunkers too, just to be ultra-safe.
It probably won't be standard or anything of course, but it might be seen sometime in the future as a surprise strategy/build. Since it's ideal to use builds like 1 rax expand or 1 gate expand which focus on economy without being unsafe, therefore providing flexibility and easy transition into the midgame, there's no reason to use this build or some kind of air tech strategy since it leaves you open to builds like 3 Gate Stargate or other 1 bases rushes.
It is vulnerable to counterattacks, but the point is that by the time he reaches one of your bases, you will have already killed one of his with your air units that are camping. By the time he kills one of your bases, you will have killed another already. So it's 1 base trade vs 2. If it keeps going on, it'll be 2 vs 3, 3 vs 4, etc. But the thing is, you should have more bases if you play well, meaning that it's really disadvantageous to Protoss. Basically he needs to play an air style vs your own air style or else he'll lose.
It is vulnerable to counterattacks, but the point is that by the time he reaches one of your bases, you will have already killed one of his with your air units that are camping. By the time he kills one of your bases, you will have killed another already. So it's 1 base trade vs 2. If it keeps going on, it'll be 2 vs 3, 3 vs 4, etc. But the thing is, you should have more bases if you play well, meaning that it's really disadvantageous to Protoss. Basically he needs to play an air style vs your own air style or else he'll lose.
This is essentially correct. Banshees trade favorably with gateway units, and any investment into robotics units is just more money that can't shoot up. The fast-moving, fast-producing phoenixes are a better answer. Also, the mobility of banshees gives them an advantage in base trade situations, and they have other benefits such as cloak and repair that only add to the strength of terran air play.
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons
I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this?
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons
I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this?
Yeah PDD helps a lot, but i think getting +1 attack or +1 defense might be better than getting 1 Raven for 1 PDD. Since Protoss has to upgrade shield, air weapon, and air armor, they upgrade much slower than you (or at least, have to spend more) who has to only upgrade 2 things.
Anyway, if your army does get caught, you can kite your way all the way back home with the Vikings to try to save some units.
But yeah if Protoss gets an early expansion like they usually do, and he figures out what your'e doing pretty quickly and masses Phoenixes (2 Stargates), then you'll be stuck on 1 base massing Vikings and be a bit behind since your 2nd base won't be running yet. In this case I think it would be best to try to catch up with a faster third since SCVs+MULE allows you to gather a bit more minerals on 1 base than Protoss can, and maybe even cut Vikings to build an in-base CC first, then turtle Vikings a bit behind Turrets until you can somehow catch up in economy while upgrading +1/+1 air.
I feel like the best way to do the pure air style, in my personal opinion, is to go fairly marine heavy as well, and not focus ENTIRELY on pure air. This is because phoenix are cost-efficient against every terran air unit except the battlecruiser, and battlecruisers in small numbers are nowhere as good as battlecruisers in huge numbers.
Nonetheless cool guide with some interesting concepts, might try out a couple of things suggested in here.
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons
I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this?
Yeah PDD helps a lot, but i think getting +1 attack or +1 defense might be better than getting 1 Raven for 1 PDD. Since Protoss has to upgrade shield, air weapon, and air armor, they upgrade much slower than you (or at least, have to spend more) who has to only upgrade 2 things.
Anyway, if your army does get caught, you can kite your way all the way back home with the Vikings to try to save some units.
But yeah if Protoss gets an early expansion like they usually do, and he figures out what your'e doing pretty quickly and masses Phoenixes (2 Stargates), then you'll be stuck on 1 base massing Vikings and be a bit behind since your 2nd base won't be running yet. In this case I think it would be best to try to catch up with a faster third since SCVs+MULE allows you to gather a bit more minerals on 1 base than Protoss can, and maybe even cut Vikings to build an in-base CC first, then turtle Vikings a bit behind Turrets until you can somehow catch up in economy while upgrading +1/+1 air.
Just IMO, 2 gate stargate is a huge commitment for Toss compared to even a 2 port for Terran. You should try and create a transition if you scout an air counter. Your expo would just be about a late 1-1-1 expand. I suppose if you were extra crazy, you could just make a BC to tank.
I'd be more afraid of really good cannon placement and blink than a 2 port.
Either way, that's a ridiculously detailed guide, congrats!
I found that going air as terran against protoss is best. I've tried going bio and tank, but protoss's collossi just too good to make it worth it. Now I just build 5-8 siege tanks, some marines and marauders to defend while I go mass BCs. Then again I'm silver rank 2 last time I played. My other build against toss is a marine, marauder, and siege tank push at 7(ish)mins. I have concussive shells, combat shield, and siege mode researched. This rush crushes any toss so far. I think it works because toss are just so used to terrans expanding, and don't have enough units to counter a 7(ish)min push.
I love your detailed guide, because the 7min rush just feels too easy lol. Hopefully I can get this build down for when I eventually move out of silver.
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons
I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this?
Yeah PDD helps a lot, but i think getting +1 attack or +1 defense might be better than getting 1 Raven for 1 PDD. Since Protoss has to upgrade shield, air weapon, and air armor, they upgrade much slower than you (or at least, have to spend more) who has to only upgrade 2 things.
Anyway, if your army does get caught, you can kite your way all the way back home with the Vikings to try to save some units.
But yeah if Protoss gets an early expansion like they usually do, and he figures out what your'e doing pretty quickly and masses Phoenixes (2 Stargates), then you'll be stuck on 1 base massing Vikings and be a bit behind since your 2nd base won't be running yet. In this case I think it would be best to try to catch up with a faster third since SCVs+MULE allows you to gather a bit more minerals on 1 base than Protoss can, and maybe even cut Vikings to build an in-base CC first, then turtle Vikings a bit behind Turrets until you can somehow catch up in economy while upgrading +1/+1 air.
Just IMO, 2 gate stargate is a huge commitment for Toss compared to even a 2 port for Terran. You should try and create a transition if you scout an air counter. Your expo would just be about a late 1-1-1 expand. I suppose if you were extra crazy, you could just make a BC to tank.
I'd be more afraid of really good cannon placement and blink than a 2 port.
Either way, that's a ridiculously detailed guide, congrats!
Yep, that's what I want to focus on next. Cus right now I'm only winning mostly because they're not responding in the best way possible.
Well I was thinking, if you can get 2 Stargate (which would be able to match terran's air) Protoss can just keep expanding, and since he already has 1 expo ahead, then it would be a direct "counter", though maybe only a soft one. But perhaps some kind of adaptation taking advantage of him lacking a Robo could work. Maybe like putting down more Barracks and making medivacs out of your 2 Starports and prepare a stim timing vs his slow zealots (not much gas for stalkers/sentries). Hopefully there's something out there that can work xD.
Actually I just realized. If he's going 1 gate expand, then his first observer should be out at around 7:00. But he can't go out to scout your base with it since you'll have cloak ready to harass at 7:30. If he is smart/safe and makes 2 observers, then he'll be OK at home but still lose some probes due to hitting both Protoss' base with only 1 observer at home. If he moves out his first observer to scout after the 2nd one finishes building, it'll arrive at about 8:00. So it is not until 8:00 that he will find out you have 2 Starports. If he puts down 2 Stargates, they'll finish at about 9:00. So actually this is quite late in the game already, and the situation I described earlier isn't realistic since 9:00 still allows your banshees to harass and for you to get your expansion out at the same time, meaning the economic situation will still be about the same (you would be several workers behind, but should have killed some during harass). So perhaps if you turtle up and build Ravens to stock up on energy, you can get a third up really quick to take advantage of the Phoenixes instead of making Vikings (use turrets/repair to keep ravens alive). And if that somehow won't work you'll have lots of time to catch up in viking count.
Tl;dr If he gets 2 stargate phoenix to try to gain air superiority, it will be too late and the economic situation will be the same since they won't be out fast enough to stop the first 2 banshees' harsas; if my thoughts are correct you can easily counter 2 stargate phoenix by turtling ravens over your natural's turrets and take a third and fourth much quicker than usual.
You can always hide your 2nd port in a corner of one of these huge frigin maps. If his obs is either trying to get in your base or in his base, or dead, then how is he going to find it unless he has good starsense for banshee counts.
You could always try and go Marine/repair Thor/Banshee all-in against star gate I guess. No robo = no immortal
What do you think about going raven -> expo and then harass, delaying the banshees a bit? I've had some success with a 200 energy raven/4 banshee timing to try and snipe tech or just whittle the protoss army down some. And it's the safest you can get vs DT rushes. I've been trying work that timing into a raven-expand build, but it's really easy to die to early aggression... but then I've never made a PF at my natural, it never even occurred to me.
On November 11 2011 13:35 Antisocialmunky wrote: You can always hide your 2nd port in a corner of one of these huge frigin maps. If his obs is either trying to get in your base or in his base, or dead, then how is he going to find it unless he has good starsense for banshee counts.
You could always try and go Marine/repair Thor/Banshee all-in against star gate I guess. No robo = no immortal
Hah you're right. You could build it somewhere and even take your 2nd base there instead of at home. That way it would look completely like a 1 basing 1-1-1, except he won't see your marines xD. Could confuse him though.
I totally forgot about those kinds of 1-1-1 all-ins. If you put down 2 more barracks at ~9 and push at 11, you could attack with 15 marines 1 thor and 4 banshees with cloak. You'll have 50 energy at 11 minute mark. Even if he has observers you could scan and snipe the observers with the thor/marines... if he waits out the scan, it should give you enough time to kill his expansion and that would allow you to win. He'll have 4 almost 6 phoenix ready but that shouldn't be enough to kill 4 banshees fast enough before his Phoenix die. Even if he doesn't make phoenixes he probably won't have enough stalkers to deal with 4 banshees right? Well actually when I'm talking about 2 stargate i mean he gets a robo first too for observers. But if he makes immortals the banshees+marine focus fire on it should make it easy. Then he will have wasted 300 gas for the stargates as long as you don't let him scout you... but i think it would be too easy for him just to poke in with an observer =/
On November 11 2011 13:46 Quotidian wrote: What do you think about going raven -> expo and then harass, delaying the banshees a bit? I've had some success with a 200 energy raven/4 banshee timing to try and snipe tech or just whittle the protoss army down some. And it's the safest you can get vs DT rushes. I've been trying work that timing into a raven-expand build, but it's really easy to die to early aggression... but then I've never made a PF at my natural, it never even occurred to me.
That sounds interesting, but how do you defend your expansion? Do you use marines or maybe siege tank? Maybe a build like that could also be very good, make expansion a PF and stock up on ravens? though phoenixes would be a problem unless you want to try to out expand protoss and just not harass him o.o
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Storm and Feedback. Feedback on Banshees/BCs/PDD. Storm on clumped air units. Then just standard ground composition for the most part. Focused more on Stalkers of course.
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Storm and Feedback. Feedback on Banshees/BCs/PDD. Storm on clumped air units. Then just standard ground composition for the most part. Focused more on Stalkers of course.
Well to my experience there's no way he can force you to attack, so all you need to do is capitalize on his now significantly lower stalker numbers by making only banshees, draining their energy, and magic boxing storm, possibly over his army to stop him from storming his own HTs.
On November 11 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote: dude i feel that you're really good at this game. you probably could be in GML if you played standard style and not your crazy creative stuff
I can dream. But I don't think I can play "standard" kekek. Not without practicing a lot at least =)
Ok, so watched a few of your games, (the one on metal where you PF and sensor tower near his gold comes especially to mind), and there are times where you're just... Well, fucking dead.
For some reason, the dude you were against did some sloppy 5 gate double upgrade with immortals timing push, and MASSIVELY skimped on cannons, and got charge. And never spent chrono. Still, though, you had 4 banshees and that's it, at one point, and he had a buttload of stalkers, and some worthless immortals and gateway units.
Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something.
I'm fairly convinced they can take little to no damage in the midgame (before you switch into HEAVY Raven mode), by simply having 1 or 2 cannons peppered around bases, and warping in stalkers, while being active with a super mobile force of blink stalkers around the map, buying him the time and footing to get onto 3 base more favourably than you, (chronoprobes), and maybe even 4 base. From here, they have a robo and +2, (or +1 +1), leaving them open to transition into pretty much any endgamey unit mix they want, which forces you to transition into something more substantial, or you'll just lose shit, which is much harder for you than them.
Thoughts?
(Also, you say Cloak -> Corvid -> HSM, but I only ever see Corvid appearing mid to lategame, way after HSM, after the Raven powering, and sometimes (I think), after the fusion core. What's going on?)
(Also also, what's your fusion core timing/trigger, and why do you get behemoth?)
On November 11 2011 13:46 Quotidian wrote: What do you think about going raven -> expo and then harass, delaying the banshees a bit? I've had some success with a 200 energy raven/4 banshee timing to try and snipe tech or just whittle the protoss army down some. And it's the safest you can get vs DT rushes. I've been trying work that timing into a raven-expand build, but it's really easy to die to early aggression... but then I've never made a PF at my natural, it never even occurred to me.
That sounds interesting, but how do you defend your expansion? Do you use marines or maybe siege tank? Maybe a build like that could also be very good, make expansion a PF and stock up on ravens? though phoenixes would be a problem unless you want to try to out expand protoss and just not harass him o.o
Basically, take SCVs off gas after starport + 200 gas briefly until you get enough for a CC. The AI tends to do these weird rushes though.. but the expo is getting up right when most protoss timings hit, so this opening would probably die to pretty much anything. I guess it's too greedy. But if the PF gets up, and the bunkers are placed better, I think most protoss players would just go back to their base instead of attacking.
Thoughts? Any way to tweak it to be safer without getting more barracks or something?
Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something.
.
Yep, I really think dealing with blink stalkers into the main is the hardest to defend. I do Sky Terran quite a lot vs P but previously pretty much only a 2 base all in with marines / banshee ravens. I really like the idea of this mass PF expansion style, but I really dunno how its possible to defend the main so well a P can force an engagement. especially with 1-2 cols to spot.
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
hahahahaha, why is it toss QQ's the most out of all 3 races?
1. It's not exactly a gimmick, it's just merely a different approach for Terrans tackling the T v P matchup.
2. It doesn't really matter if this build gets scouted because;
- it looks very similar to a 1-1-1
- Toss are just a bit generally slow out of the 3 races when trying to figure out on how to adapt to different play styles from other races. This is why you see in that youtube replay and from what people are saying here, the toss just keeps building gateway units. It only takes half a brain to work out gateway units won't do much at all against this if you haven't done an all-in already. Keep in mind, because you think it's a 1-1-1 you'll be waiting for the all-in whilst Terran is just expoing it up.
This is a very nice guide btw, it's on my to-do-list.
On November 09 2011 23:31 Reason.SC2 wrote: Another Terran gimmick to deal with on the ladder.. thanks.
Why is it that so many T's enjoy doing strats that get roflstomped if scouted and lead to a high percentage of auto-wins if not scouted? So not the right approach....
hahahahaha, why is it toss QQ's the most out of all 3 races?
1. It's not exactly a gimmick, it's just merely a different approach for Terrans tackling the T v P matchup.
2. It doesn't really matter if this build gets scouted because;
- it looks very similar to a 1-1-1
- Toss are just a bit generally slow out of the 3 races when trying to figure out on how to adapt to different play styles from other races. This is why you see in that youtube replay and from what people are saying here, the toss just keeps building gateway units. It only takes half a brain to work out gateway units won't do much at all against this if you haven't done an all-in already. Keep in mind, because you think it's a 1-1-1 you'll be waiting for the all-in whilst Terran is just expoing it up.
This is a very nice guide btw, it's on my to-do-list.
P's like this are just embarrassing, if you MM they cry that T are boring and do the same thing all the time, if you 1-1-1 they cry OP, if you try something else like sky terran you are abusing a gimmick. What do they want?
Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote: Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to
On November 11 2011 19:14 rebotfc wrote: How do you deal with blink stalkers at the back of your main, avoiding the PF at the nat?
Base race. Snipe his Nexus (he should have two) then his Robotics Facility if its building, otherwise Cybernetics Core first. You'll be ahead since you should have a third base and he shouldn't. He has to kill 1 vulnerable base and 2 defended PFs while you only have to kill 2 vulnerable bases.
On November 11 2011 20:38 Asday wrote: Ok, so watched a few of your games, (the one on metal where you PF and sensor tower near his gold comes especially to mind), and there are times where you're just... Well, fucking dead.
For some reason, the dude you were against did some sloppy 5 gate double upgrade with immortals timing push, and MASSIVELY skimped on cannons, and got charge. And never spent chrono. Still, though, you had 4 banshees and that's it, at one point, and he had a buttload of stalkers, and some worthless immortals and gateway units.
Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something.
I'm fairly convinced they can take little to no damage in the midgame (before you switch into HEAVY Raven mode), by simply having 1 or 2 cannons peppered around bases, and warping in stalkers, while being active with a super mobile force of blink stalkers around the map, buying him the time and footing to get onto 3 base more favourably than you, (chronoprobes), and maybe even 4 base. From here, they have a robo and +2, (or +1 +1), leaving them open to transition into pretty much any endgamey unit mix they want, which forces you to transition into something more substantial, or you'll just lose shit, which is much harder for you than them.
Thoughts?
(Also, you say Cloak -> Corvid -> HSM, but I only ever see Corvid appearing mid to lategame, way after HSM, after the Raven powering, and sometimes (I think), after the fusion core. What's going on?)
(Also also, what's your fusion core timing/trigger, and why do you get behemoth?)
Thank you.
Yup, the point of showing that replay was less to show that "omg this strategy is so good lol!" but rather that it is very effective on the ladder since most opponents are clueless (most as in like, every single one I've encountered). Well I disagree it did seem like he used a lot of chrono, at least more than others. Most would just forget about chrono'ing gates and etc in the lategame. But anyways that's not important so
First of all thanks for watching more than one replay heheh! Can get lots more feedback this way. Well what I have to say to them blinking in your main is similar to what I said to rebotfc. You should be ahead. Also, your buildings should be split up (try to fit as many buildings in the natural as possible once it's set up) so that losing your main isn't actually that important. If you kill his base he can't remake an army to kill your remaining PFs.
The problem with being "mobile" with his stalkers is that it means his base is left undefended. He can make all the cannons he wants to burn my PDD and damage or even kill my Banshees, but he'll be burning a lot of minerals too. As Protoss, a Stalker is 125 minerals and 50 gas. On 1 base, you only mine 816 minerals and 210 ish gas. If he builds 4 Stalkers a minute, he needs 500 minerals. He can make 2 Cannons per base per minute considering he doesn't need more gateways/pylons or any other buildings. So if you're producing 6 Banshees a minute (no PDD), you're fighting 1 cannon at a time with 6 Banshees, maybe 2 Cannons if he really put that many. 6 Banshees can 2 shot a canon; lets say he has shit ton of cannons or your micro isn't the best so you have to fight 2 cannons at a time. You'll take about 6 individual cannon shots, which may or may not kill 1 Banshee (he most likely won't be focus firing with his cannons). You should easily be able to start sniping his Nexuses with only killing 1-2 cannons max, else it means he put like 8 cannons surrounding his Nexus, not even protecting his probes. He'd need like 12 cannons to protect his probes too. But such high cannon count would cut into his stalkers or stop him from attempting to take a third base.
Math aside, I just don't think cannons will be enough. The idea is that your air units are sitting in safe air space right next to his base so once he moves out, he'll lose a Nexus by the time he reaches 1 of your bases.
Hm well the "order" I presented in the guide is what the "ideal" order would be. So far example, since you don't really need Ravens, you can wait longer and get Corvid Reactor first instead. But getting Seeker Missile can be useful before that since maybe you just don't have the gas and/or can't look that far into the long run.
Fusion Core. Basically I haven't put much thought into this. Usually when I get a Fusion Core I am just messing around and having fun. Actually in pretty much all my ladder games I am messing around having fun. I don't try hard like I would in a TvZ or TvT since I know I'm just roflstomping my Protoss opponent. This ends up with things like bad macro, completely messing up my build and delaying the first banshee like 30 seconds, etc., etc., but I get away with it since the opponent is just so clueless/confused. Not the best way to practice haha. But that's not to say that BCs aren't useful. Since they're so supply efficient, I usually get Fusion Core when I have pretty much taken my entire side of the map, and maybe even 1 base on his side. Most times it'll be 4 base vs 6-7 base. I know that gas isn't a problem since I have so many base, so the only reason not to get BCs is cus they take so long to build. But, since I have so many Starports and am close to or at 200/200, remaxing on BCs is really strong. So, I don't go "I want BCs to counter this, this" it's like remaxing on a 200/200 army of banelings as Zerg, I guess. You just need something to spend your money on and capitalize on your much larger economy xD.
Behemoth Reactor. I don't put much thought into this, but usually I'm so rich I just get it anyways. When I am close to max and decide it is a good time to get BCs, usually I'll still have my air fleet for a lot longer since it just flies around harassing, so I get Behemoth first since it seems it won't be a while until I can start to replace my army with BCs. Why not just get Fusion Core earlier? Well BCs aren't "needed", so if suddenly I am in a tough spot, it would be a waste of 150 gas. This is the way i think, at least.
I guess one trigger for getting BCs would be if you've killed the forges even once throughout the game. It will mean that instead of him being at possibly 2 attack 0 shield 2 armor, he will be at 1 attack 0 shield 1 armor while you're at 2/2. BCs shoot 6 times per 'attack', so this is HUGE especially since half of a Stalker's health is Shield. Likewise, BCs work very well against Protoss air if he tries to transition into air later, since he will be so far behind in upgrades. With 3/3 + Yamato you can deal with equal Void Rays in cost. So I guess one gameplan you could have is to prioritize killing Forges and focus on getting BCs earlier to capitalize on that as fighting units. Actually with 7 BCs you can yamato a Nexus to harass, lol! Or Forge/otherbuildings
@kmeanster
I haven't thought too much about that kmeanster, but I do get lots of OCs lategame when I have thousands of minerals to burn. I guess you could substitute some of your expansion PFs earlier on for OCs so that you can get even more bases up quicker. It is risky but with the "proper judgement", I guess it would be better. After all, the way progamers play is to play in such a way so that, assuming their judgements are correct, they can cut as many corners as possible. Of course if you mess up you might lose, but then you'll learn and make an even better judgement next time. But there is a lot of other things to work on with this style so if you don't want to worry about it you should just make PFs. And also each PF is 150 gas after all, and when you're talking about mass ravens over a long period of time, each additional raven you get increases the power of the raven ball exponentially because of the energy.
I saw 1 replay of a GM terran player (NA) doing an almost pure air strategy. He opened up with (i forget what exactly) a few marines and marauders, brought a few SCVs, and made 2 bunkers at Protoss' natural expansion to try to kill it. He was really close but the Protoss saved it. Anyways, behind this he was teching to banshees and getting an expansion. He didn't use PFs like me, all his expansions were OCs.
But yea like Quotidian said, all the Protoss I face are so easy I don't need to worry about that xD Though, I probably should if I want to improve efficiently. Also, I'll check out that replay once i get home today xD I'm at school lol.
Also just want to point out guys, most people use gimmicky incorrectly. A gimmick is something that achieves the same purpose/goal in a different, but not necessarily better, way. So although you could see playing a different style as "gimmicky", since the purpose/goal is still to win, it's how you get to the victory that's important in Starcraft. With that said, it would make more sense if you look at the purpose/goal as how you achieve victory. So in this case, playing a different style (bio vs mech vs air) is NOT gimmicky at all. A gimmick would be like doing a gas cancel opening as zerg, which may or may not (usually not) be more economical, just cus it looks cool.
On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote: Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to
I dunno, I never feel right when I PFort the natural. :\ Your income curve is just to shallow.
I also play a Sky Terran style, so I checked out this one, watched the replay against Eidersuchtig, and I gotta say I didn't like the opening. 2port on one base is gimmicky, you had a very low marine count, the starports were right beside each other so they were both scouted immediately, the expo was late, and was PF so you had really low income. Your raw production was low until you got the 3rd base, and the fact that you kept saccing your air force into his main kept your army really small. If toss was more on top of scouting, he would have denied your 3rd and you would have been choked out.
I think the best opening for Sky Terran is a 1 rax FE. Here's a rough build order of mine 10 supply 12 rax 13 refinery 16 orbital 16 marine 17 marine 17 supply (food counts discontinued) no scvs cut at all after the 2nd marine, build a reactor, constant marine production after @400 min, cc inbase factory @ cc 100%, orbital @ factory 100% 2 starports, 2nd refinery, hellion @ starports 100%, 2 techlabs
Build bunkers as needed, scout with the hellion and scans, take the nat, take the 3rd and 4th gas. Spread out the starports, look for the observer (the timing is pretty consistent) and kill it. If you don't completely screw up, he is only going to see one starport and going to prepare for 1-2 banshees. Build 2 banshees, get cloak, 2 more banshees. Rally them to different points. Cloak should be done the same time as the second pair of banshees and you can do a 2 pronged attack, a concentrated attack if his AA is weak, whichever will cause the most damage. After the 4th gas is up I throw down 2 more starports, 1 tech lab, and either keep the other naked or swap it on to my reactor if needed. I can do constant CC production and take my 3rd long before you could, with a more robust air army to boot.
This opening gives you more income, a bigger standing army faster, and a stronger initial attack than what you did. A PF at the nat is massively overkill for defense and you didn't have the income to take a 3rd for a long time. With my opening, between sniping observers with vikings, PDD, and faster upgrades, I can take the toss army head on far earlier than you could, have massive economic advantages, and I attribute that almost entirely to your opening basically crippling you.
Very in-depth guide. I like it a lot, and thanks for sharing. You've inspired me to play some more Terran on the ladder.
I have to say though, that is simply an excellent build. Someone used it against me yesterday (two days ago?) on the ladder and I was absolutely unprepared. I was fast expanding, and I went for an early Nexus 1 gate build. He came into my main with 3 hellions at the 7 minute mark and tore up my mineral line. Then, as I was trying to recover, he rolls in with cloaked banshees and ravens. This COMPLETELY destroys my efforts for detection, because his 1 viking took down my observer while my stalkers squabbled around helplessly trying to find those damn invisible banshees. My economy was in tatters and I had absolutely no hope for a base trade because his army was simply too mobile. He expanded behind his hellion/banshee pressure, and by the time he was laying down PDDs and destroying my Observers with his ravens, I had no choice but to gg.
I highly recommend this build. Very lethal, and this is a great write up. GJ, Yoshi.
On November 12 2011 02:47 dezi wrote: But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time.
Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done.
On November 12 2011 04:33 Mondieu wrote: this strat reminds me of the day when I randomly decided to just 4gate and got 10 wins in a row ^^ I'm pretty sure this can't hold a 4gate.
He does mention how to deal with a 4-gate with this build. I have to admit though, as a protoss I would be quite adamant on trying to break a Terran PF even with a 4-gate since the only way you can realistcally break this is with a high sentry count which can only be coupled by zealots and still that seems quite unrealistic as they should have banshees out by then. I may be completely wrong however and 4-gates may completely roll over this build but from what I'm looking at, it dosen't seem that likely or easy.
On November 11 2011 22:23 kmeanster wrote: Hey Yoshi, great guide. This seems to resemble a TvP version of IEchoic's TvT sky terran play.
I know you want to build PF's and expand all over the map so your expansions can defend themselves to an extent. Have you ever tried macro OC's just for the mules? On the third mule they pay for themselves. Having a bunch of macro OC's would allow you to mine out less defended bases more quickly, reducing your opponent's ability to kill an expansion and then plop their own down in its place. In base trade scenarios they would also allow you to call down supply on the supply depots at the bases not under attack so you never get supply blocked.
I don't think you need the mules for minerals, but once you're rolling in money I guess you could start trading SCVs for army. But you're probably so far ahead at that point anyway that you don't really need to
I dunno, I never feel right when I PFort the natural. :\ Your income curve is just to shallow.
True, though even in the "vs top masters" my worker counter is much lower especially since I don't have a MULE, but I was still able to win them. If he responds "correctly" and gets air, then you don't need a PF I guess... maybe xD Not enough experience to be sure. Perhaps a better way to do my build is to get an OC at the natural, but cut Starport production or just get Ravens instead of Banshees to free up a little more minerals to get an earlier third CC which you build at the natural. Perhaps if he comes to attack, you can turn it into a PF, otherwise float it out and take a third like normal?
On November 12 2011 04:33 Mondieu wrote: this strat reminds me of the day when I randomly decided to just 4gate and got 10 wins in a row ^^ I'm pretty sure this can't hold a 4gate.
He does mention how to deal with a 4-gate with this build. I have to admit though, as a protoss I would be quite adamant on trying to break a Terran PF even with a 4-gate since the only way you can realistcally break this is with a high sentry count which can only be coupled by zealots and still that seems quite unrealistic as they should have banshees out by then. I may be completely wrong however and 4-gates may completely roll over this build but from what I'm looking at, it dosen't seem that likely or easy.
Well the 4 gate hits much before your PF is up, the idea is to make tons of bunkers to compensate for a lack of marines and hope that you can equalize the playing field. You might not end up ahead since it's 1 base vs 1 base but hopefully you'll end up not instantly losing.
On November 12 2011 03:06 saer wrote: I could swear I played you doing this style, but I don't seem to have the replay saved, am I crazy or did that happen? name saer on battlenet
I think someone else, I'll check though o.o. I checked since last October 3rd, haven't played you Unless it was even earlier than that. I save all my replays.
On November 12 2011 02:47 dezi wrote: But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time.
Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done.
I think he must be referring to DrivenBatty's build.
On November 12 2011 02:06 DrivenBatty wrote: I also play a Sky Terran style, so I checked out this one, watched the replay against Eidersuchtig, and I gotta say I didn't like the opening. 2port on one base is gimmicky, you had a very low marine count, the starports were right beside each other so they were both scouted immediately, the expo was late, and was PF so you had really low income. Your raw production was low until you got the 3rd base, and the fact that you kept saccing your air force into his main kept your army really small. If toss was more on top of scouting, he would have denied your 3rd and you would have been choked out.
I think the best opening for Sky Terran is a 1 rax FE. Here's a rough build order of mine 10 supply 12 rax 13 refinery 16 orbital 16 marine 17 marine 17 supply (food counts discontinued) no scvs cut at all after the 2nd marine, build a reactor, constant marine production after @400 min, cc inbase factory @ cc 100%, orbital @ factory 100% 2 starports, 2nd refinery, hellion @ starports 100%, 2 techlabs
Build bunkers as needed, scout with the hellion and scans, take the nat, take the 3rd and 4th gas. Spread out the starports, look for the observer (the timing is pretty consistent) and kill it. If you don't completely screw up, he is only going to see one starport and going to prepare for 1-2 banshees. Build 2 banshees, get cloak, 2 more banshees. Rally them to different points. Cloak should be done the same time as the second pair of banshees and you can do a 2 pronged attack, a concentrated attack if his AA is weak, whichever will cause the most damage. After the 4th gas is up I throw down 2 more starports, 1 tech lab, and either keep the other naked or swap it on to my reactor if needed. I can do constant CC production and take my 3rd long before you could, with a more robust air army to boot.
This opening gives you more income, a bigger standing army faster, and a stronger initial attack than what you did. A PF at the nat is massively overkill for defense and you didn't have the income to take a 3rd for a long time. With my opening, between sniping observers with vikings, PDD, and faster upgrades, I can take the toss army head on far earlier than you could, have massive economic advantages, and I attribute that almost entirely to your opening basically crippling you.
Interesting build, thanks for sharing. I'll have to try it out before giving any thoughts on it.
On November 12 2011 03:11 LionsFist wrote: Yoshi, why do I always find myself downloading mass replays of yours trying to learn your builds?
Upload a replay pack already!
<3
builds? The only replays I've shared formally are the ones in here, if meant "builds" literally as in different strategies =O
I might make one... next time I have a break lol. I think I'll make a TvZ mech air guide, based on Gumiho's builds. Not really a pack but more strats/replays i guess.
I'm definitely going to be getting a faster raven instead of early cloak. Cloak generally doesn't seem to be that useful until you can start sniping observers, and you need ravens for that anyway. And I like the 4 banshee/200 energy raven timing I mentioned in a previous post. I'm leaning towards not getting cloak until I'm taking my 3rd, because you only need it to prevent feedback from killing your banshees anyway.
One thing I learned from watching my replays: Never, ever leave an area until all the pdd energy has been spent if there is still stuff to kill. I noticed I kept throwing down 4+ pdds and then leaving as soon as the main protoss army starts engaging. Some of the pdds were still at full energy.
Oh, and sniping motherships with seeker missile is fun ^^
ok, but I don't really see the point-- my MMR is wrecked because I've been off-racing a lot, so I think the opponent was in gold. It's not going to be very educational
This is incredible. This is the most baller strat I've seen in a long time. Its always fun to talk with friends and discuss crazy things that might be done, like pure baneling armies or void ray/pheonix/carrier/mothership. To actually go the next step and develop a build and in depth strategy and tactics concerning the idea is bold. For it to be refined and made viable is something you'll only see very seldom. Also, this guide is more comprehensive than anything I've seen in a long time. You have won over my heart. <3 11 out of 10.
On November 12 2011 07:52 Blazinghand wrote: Oh not because it would be educational, but because any game that involves seeker missiling a mothership to death sounds AWESOME :D
EDIT: maybe drop.sc is working? I usually use that.
On November 12 2011 06:40 Quotidian wrote: I'm definitely going to be getting a faster raven instead of early cloak. Cloak generally doesn't seem to be that useful until you can start sniping observers, and you need ravens for that anyway. And I like the 4 banshee/200 energy raven timing I mentioned in a previous post. I'm leaning towards not getting cloak until I'm taking my 3rd, because you only need it to prevent feedback from killing your banshees anyway.
One thing I learned from watching my replays: Never, ever leave an area until all the pdd energy has been spent if there is still stuff to kill. I noticed I kept throwing down 4+ pdds and then leaving as soon as the main protoss army starts engaging. Some of the pdds were still at full energy.
Oh, and sniping motherships with seeker missile is fun ^^
On November 12 2011 07:52 Blazinghand wrote: Oh not because it would be educational, but because any game that involves seeker missiling a mothership to death sounds AWESOME :D
EDIT: maybe drop.sc is working? I usually use that.
Also, getting Cloak later is interesting. But I agree with you, Cloak doesn't do toooo much. Ok, at my level, it does quite a lot (a few more probe kills at least) but as most people have pointed out, it's just cus their build is bad or they don't feel like making an observer, etc. etc. A 2 PDD timing + 4 Banshees sounds really strong, you can either go in and kill lots of Probes, some Stalkers, or specifically snipe a building (like cyber core or forge).
@DrivenBatty
I never even thought about hiding or spreading out my first 2 starports, thanks! I'm thinking now that I'll build my 2nd Starport somewhere hidden in my natural. If he comes to attack me I can just lift it back up into my main since it doesn't even have an add on until after finishing a viking. Unless perhaps the main is large and I hope his observer doesn't scout both starports.
On November 12 2011 08:20 TheTurk wrote: This is incredible. This is the most baller strat I've seen in a long time. Its always fun to talk with friends and discuss crazy things that might be done, like pure baneling armies or void ray/pheonix/carrier/mothership. To actually go the next step and develop a build and in depth strategy and tactics concerning the idea is bold. For it to be refined and made viable is something you'll only see very seldom. Also, this guide is more comprehensive than anything I've seen in a long time. You have won over my heart. <3 11 out of 10.
This is a build I recommend to all terrans! Ive been doing this ever since SC2 came out where it consist of a 1-1-1 3hellion drop into 2rax/2dual port/expand (thanks to IEchoic). You get a raven out first with constant rine production/bunker meaning any early shenanigans the P might pull will not work (and if they do, their mineral line is toast).
I think having a ground army such as marines(early game) and hellions (late game) as mineral dump is good and really annoys stalkers if they go stalker heavy. And its good to go around harassing with a group of hellions or stimmed marines to outlying expansions which always seem to catch P off guard.
I've changed my mind.. the build just shouldn't work. Two quick stargates and the protoss mass expanding nullifies it. My mmr is at gold level, and everyone is countering it with ease.. wtf
edit: back to one base all-ing or failing to get anything done with mmm, I guess.. or uninstalling. I'm strongly considering the latter. I've pretty much had it with the game. It's just not fun anymore. tvp is what made me play zerg and protoss down to gold level anyway. The match up is way too hard at the plat/dia level. It sucks so hard that there's no viable alternative to mmm... this build had me excited for a few hours. Ah well QQ
Seriously? What's the difference between turtling and this? I don't see how it can improve your overall skill level at all, you make bunkers & planetary fortresses? This is a strategy that helps you gain ladder points but doesn't help you gain any skill at all. I can turtle & cheese my way up to grandmasters but I didn't improve my skills at all. You rely on sniping observers and you lift off your command center in a base trade situation. Seriously?
This is what Terran is about - Keeping the Protoss guessing.
I've noticed TSL_Polt re-incoporating the 2 rax into his play, letting the Toss scout the gas and make them prepare for 1-1-1 and grab that eearly expansion, which of course will be Pwned by 2 rax and good micro.
Terran may be hard as hell to play, but hiding information is certainly the strength of our fine race
On November 12 2011 15:29 Quotidian wrote: I've changed my mind.. the build just shouldn't work. Two quick stargates and the protoss mass expanding nullifies it. My mmr is at gold level, and everyone is countering it with ease.. wtf
edit: back to one base all-ing or failing to get anything done with mmm, I guess.. or uninstalling. I'm strongly considering the latter. I've pretty much had it with the game. It's just not fun anymore. tvp is what made me play zerg and protoss down to gold level anyway. The match up is way too hard at the plat/dia level. It sucks so hard that there's no viable alternative to mmm... this build had me excited for a few hours. Ah well QQ
upload a replay so i can help! you can't possibly just give up after encountering one thing that troubles you, or else you won't get far with that mindset. I've mentioned a couple pages back that if they get 2 stargates on 2 base, then you proceed to take more expansions your self and turtle vikings behind turrets. You can use OCs instead of PFs if he keeps up his 2 stargate production and keeps sticking with air + mass expanding. You'll need the MULEs since PFs can't shoot up and you need to stay matched in economy. If it's 2 stargates on 1 base, that's horrible and you should be able to just turtle Vikings while expanding ahead of him.
On November 12 2011 15:43 Unsinkable wrote: Seriously? What's the difference between turtling and this? I don't see how it can improve your overall skill level at all, you make bunkers & planetary fortresses? This is a strategy that helps you gain ladder points but doesn't help you gain any skill at all. I can turtle & cheese my way up to grandmasters but I didn't improve my skills at all. You rely on sniping observers and you lift off your command center in a base trade situation. Seriously?
You're not turtling. If Bio is focusing on harass, and Mech is focusing on defense, then Air is focusing on map control.
What is skill? winning. Ugh I hate always having to argue about skill but... there is NO SUCH THING AS SKILL. Only your ability to win. Winning is the only concrete thing you can look at to determine how "strong" someone is. You can abstractly estimate a player's strength by guessing if he will win or lose against certain players in certain matches in certain events/tournies on certain maps in the future, but that's all abstract and subjective, hence opinion. If you win, then in the end, you're the better player.
It seems like you just don't like this style of playing. If so, suit yourself. Is there something wrong with turtling? it is part of the game, learn it. Not that this build is ANYTHING close to turtling. It is the exact opposite.
You want me to keep my CCs not lifted off? How stupid is that? Want me to lose? How is purposefully losing "skill"?
I "rely" on sniping observers. For parts of the game. What does Bio rely on? Drops, forcing your opponent to fight in smaller engagements. Is there a problem with that? In the end the goal is to win. Mech relies on turtling, and then pushing forward at some point.
What's the difference? If you turtle your way to GM, good job! Your turtling skills are useful for any kind of match. If you cheese your way to GM, good job! Your cheesing skills are great for use in Bo1 matches, and can come in handy in Bo3+ matches too.
This build is not a cheese, hence this build takes "skill", or in other words, you can win with it and you can improve your chances of winning by improving your execution of this strategy.
In all honesty you seem a bit mad for some reason. Go cool off somewhere else o.o
As a Protoss player I have to find a way to counter this build. Scouting constantly, keeping constant pressure, sacrificing some phoenixes to snipe the ravens. It seems the only way to really beat this build is to kill the Terran off early or base trade mid game. I need to study this in order to find a flaw and theory craft. Until then I'm going to have to "study" this build on the ladder.
On November 12 2011 17:45 starfox0_0 wrote: As a Protoss player I have to find a way to counter this build. Scouting constantly, keeping constant pressure, sacrificing some phoenixes to snipe the ravens. It seems the only way to really beat this build is to kill the Terran off early or base trade mid game. I need to study this in order to find a flaw and theory craft. Until then I'm going to have to "study" this build on the ladder.
Well the "proper" way to play against this is to go air yourself and take lots of bases. You can use that as a starting ground. Any base trade is going to be quite disadvantageous for Protoss, at least for the more standard ground compositions.
Very interesting build and great explanations. I am currently using Mech in low-masters since I don't like bio in TvP. What I am wondering about is, if that build is viable in a bo3 or bo5? Or is it a one-shot-cannon? Do you beat good players when they know you're doing that build? Do you think they will be able to beat it in the near future and that you re just winning at the moment because it's not popular, yet?
Also, what would you say is the strongest time of that build? Is lategame your goal? Do you fear it? Or do you think it's most likely equal if you go into lategame?
On November 12 2011 15:43 Unsinkable wrote: Seriously? What's the difference between turtling and this? I don't see how it can improve your overall skill level at all, you make bunkers & planetary fortresses? This is a strategy that helps you gain ladder points but doesn't help you gain any skill at all. I can turtle & cheese my way up to grandmasters but I didn't improve my skills at all. You rely on sniping observers and you lift off your command center in a base trade situation. Seriously?
You're not turtling. If Bio is focusing on harass, and Mech is focusing on defense, then Air is focusing on map control.
What is skill? winning. Ugh I hate always having to argue about skill but... there is NO SUCH THING AS SKILL. Only your ability to win. Winning is the only concrete thing you can look at to determine how "strong" someone is. You can abstractly estimate a player's strength by guessing if he will win or lose against certain players in certain matches in certain events/tournies on certain maps in the future, but that's all abstract and subjective, hence opinion. If you win, then in the end, you're the better player.
It seems like you just don't like this style of playing. If so, suit yourself. Is there something wrong with turtling? it is part of the game, learn it. Not that this build is ANYTHING close to turtling. It is the exact opposite.
You want me to keep my CCs not lifted off? How stupid is that? Want me to lose? How is purposefully losing "skill"?
I "rely" on sniping observers. For parts of the game. What does Bio rely on? Drops, forcing your opponent to fight in smaller engagements. Is there a problem with that? In the end the goal is to win. Mech relies on turtling, and then pushing forward at some point.
What's the difference? If you turtle your way to GM, good job! Your turtling skills are useful for any kind of match. If you cheese your way to GM, good job! Your cheesing skills are great for use in Bo1 matches, and can come in handy in Bo3+ matches too.
This build is not a cheese, hence this build takes "skill", or in other words, you can win with it and you can improve your chances of winning by improving your execution of this strategy.
In all honesty you seem a bit mad for some reason. Go cool off somewhere else o.o
Wow that was the best response I've seen in a while o.o... Thanks for keeping me motivated haha I like this style alot, but i'm so used to going bio so it's not going good at all :p haha. Gonna need MOAR practice.
I'm considering opening like that old iEchoic build. hm,, gonna look more into it hihi
TvP mech and TvP air are both strats that work quite well when the protoss doesn't know how to deal with them. Most protoss don't know how to deal with them because it's so rarely played. It are however pretty poor strats when the P does know how to shift away from his standard play. Air simply can't compete with phoenix play, phoenix do ok against viking and own banshee/raven. As long as you focus the banshee first, then stalkers can easily cleep up after the air fight.
Many P simply don't get phoenix though because reactive phoenix are a bit poor sometimes, just like reactice phoenix suck against muta. Double starport is also just really rare.
While my TvP needs no help (my best MU by far) I'm going to do this on the ladder for a while simply because you put so much effort into this guide. Great write up.
On November 12 2011 22:50 Markwerf wrote: TvP mech and TvP air are both strats that work quite well when the protoss doesn't know how to deal with them. Most protoss don't know how to deal with them because it's so rarely played. It are however pretty poor strats when the P does know how to shift away from his standard play. Air simply can't compete with phoenix play, phoenix do ok against viking and own banshee/raven. As long as you focus the banshee first, then stalkers can easily cleep up after the air fight.
Many P simply don't get phoenix though because reactive phoenix are a bit poor sometimes, just like reactice phoenix suck against muta. Double starport is also just really rare.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. We all agree that most protoss are not reacting optimally. However, you...and many others on this thread...make the assertion that if they were playing optimally this build would fail...thus gimmick. You provide zero support for this conclusion and yet hold it as self evident. The OP has done a wonderful job explaining how to react against various P responses. His logic versus those counters appears sound and has worked in my experience. You make the point that Phoenix > all Terran Air?....citation needed. Even then you are talking about how units react in a vacuum and do not consider any other components of the build except for this theoretical engagement (you ignore economies, tech positions, map control, etc).
Feedback is very welcome to those who post on TL. However, the feedback becomes toxic when the critic ignores important parts of the issue and asserts unsupported opinions.
Considering most Protoss players would just mass stalkers, this seems awesome.
Amongst the hatred of ghosts and mmmgv stim a move win, Terran bounces back, using units which are pretty unused in the matchup. Hooray for our versatility. I love how minerals simply aren't needed that much so we don't need MULES.
I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway.
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made?
It gets owned by High Templar spam and mass cannons/expanding. Was pretty fun to try for a few games but it's not reliable enough to use as a long term strat in my opinion. Relies too much on the incompetence of your opponent.
On November 12 2011 02:47 dezi wrote: But you cannot harass with this build - you give up early pressure and let the Toss freely do stuff for a longer time.
Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done.
have to give you props for a well put together guide, but this just seems like bancheese into doing so much damage you win the game anyways and get to pick w/e composition you want to win. and the point of not having to attack is always true when you get that much of a lead, you can have the same affect of using mass drops with bio if you kill so many workers with cloaked banshees. i suppose not a waste, just a lot of effort into a strategy that isn't too difficult to figure out. seems like alot of people just don't know how to respond to mass air or aren't good at defending vs banshees. and what's been said before about hts is prudent, iirc all of your air units except vikings have energy, so they can be feedbacked, and iirc only the battlecruiser can't be 1 shotted by it at full energy, and air units spread so slowly (and ravens move so slowly in general) i think storms would wreck your day very quickly. also, some of the examples used here are kind of irrelevant, if you kill half or more of their workers with your first few banshees the game is pretty much over at that point. the mass air follow up is just another way to win after you've already taken a massive lead
i've been meeting this build alot its incredibly frustrating to play against especially if they denie scouting and u think its just regular banshee harrass at the beginning.throwing up 2 starports and getting lotsa observers completley hard counters this but as i said its difficult to see it in time to react.
On November 12 2011 22:50 Markwerf wrote: TvP mech and TvP air are both strats that work quite well when the protoss doesn't know how to deal with them. Most protoss don't know how to deal with them because it's so rarely played. It are however pretty poor strats when the P does know how to shift away from his standard play. Air simply can't compete with phoenix play, phoenix do ok against viking and own banshee/raven. As long as you focus the banshee first, then stalkers can easily cleep up after the air fight.
Many P simply don't get phoenix though because reactive phoenix are a bit poor sometimes, just like reactice phoenix suck against muta. Double starport is also just really rare.
I don't understand this line of reasoning. We all agree that most protoss are not reacting optimally. However, you...and many others on this thread...make the assertion that if they were playing optimally this build would fail...thus gimmick. You provide zero support for this conclusion and yet hold it as self evident. The OP has done a wonderful job explaining how to react against various P responses. His logic versus those counters appears sound and has worked in my experience. You make the point that Phoenix > all Terran Air?....citation needed. Even then you are talking about how units react in a vacuum and do not consider any other components of the build except for this theoretical engagement (you ignore economies, tech positions, map control, etc).
Feedback is very welcome to those who post on TL. However, the feedback becomes toxic when the critic ignores important parts of the issue and asserts unsupported opinions.
Yup thank you, in your example Markwerf you do not take in account the unit costs nor that Phoenixes don't shoot ground units.
On November 13 2011 00:08 Micket wrote: Considering most Protoss players would just mass stalkers, this seems awesome.
Amongst the hatred of ghosts and mmmgv stim a move win, Terran bounces back, using units which are pretty unused in the matchup. Hooray for our versatility. I love how minerals simply aren't needed that much so we don't need MULES.
Yeah no more complaining "MULES OP" right? xD
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
Well perhaps on maps with really small nats/chokes like Shakuras, but even then the 3 Bunkers can't give the same kind of protection a PF has. The 3 bunkers are spread out so they can't all cover everything at once. Also, getting 2 more Bunkers + 8 marines = 600 minerals, that will severely delay your natural and you won't have it up safely against a 2 gate protoss push.
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway.
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made?
I would really really like to see some replays because many of you are saying "this is the counter!" without showing any replays. I've explained how to deal with that response. Make Vikings to match air superiority and take expansions yourself, preferably OCs since you need MULEs to keep up with chronoboosted Probes. His army won't be stronger because Vikings deal well enough with Phoenixes, meaning he will have NO army. Any army he could possibly have would be pure minerals, meaning Zealots, and Hellions do well against those, even bunkers+marines. If he cuts Phoenixes to make stalkers, you cut Vikings and make Banshees, and in the end you still end up with a slightly more mobile force because Stalkers can't fly and it doesn't matter if Phoenixes are faster than Viking/Banshee because you don't need to run away from the Phoenixes.
On November 13 2011 03:49 Absentia wrote: It gets owned by High Templar spam and mass cannons/expanding. Was pretty fun to try for a few games but it's not reliable enough to use as a long term strat in my opinion. Relies too much on the incompetence of your opponent.
If you can give a replay then it would be greatly appreciated. I have no such problems against HT spam and mass cannon/expanding.
On November 13 2011 04:25 Dbla08 wrote: have to give you props for a well put together guide, but this just seems like bancheese into doing so much damage you win the game anyways and get to pick w/e composition you want to win. and the point of not having to attack is always true when you get that much of a lead, you can have the same affect of using mass drops with bio if you kill so many workers with cloaked banshees. i suppose not a waste, just a lot of effort into a strategy that isn't too difficult to figure out. seems like alot of people just don't know how to respond to mass air or aren't good at defending vs banshees. and what's been said before about hts is prudent, iirc all of your air units except vikings have energy, so they can be feedbacked, and iirc only the battlecruiser can't be 1 shotted by it at full energy, and air units spread so slowly (and ravens move so slowly in general) i think storms would wreck your day very quickly. also, some of the examples used here are kind of irrelevant, if you kill half or more of their workers with your first few banshees the game is pretty much over at that point. the mass air follow up is just another way to win after you've already taken a massive lead
If you check my replays, in most of the ones where I kill many Probes, it tends to be because Protoss has chosen to focus on economy. Meaning, even though in some games I kill more Probes than others, he still has more or equal the economy I do. It is at that point that I take my natural, and we both produce out of 2 Nexus/CC, and I quickly get more ahead in bases and outproduce him. In some of the games I will kill several Probes but he will still have 37 vs my 27 ish, yet I am still able to win.
Like I said in the guide, 1 HT could have been 3 stalkers or even 1.5 Phoenix. Don't attack HT there is no need to. They can't fly, they can't defend. Burn your energy with cloak and stop making ravens or just don't approach his army with them; go make turrets at his bases instead. BCs, don't make either.
On November 13 2011 04:35 saltymango wrote: i've been meeting this build alot its incredibly frustrating to play against especially if they denie scouting and u think its just regular banshee harrass at the beginning.throwing up 2 starports and getting lotsa observers completley hard counters this but as i said its difficult to see it in time to react.
I'm glad to be hearing people are using this on ladder now? But at the same time worried that my build will be too figured out and my opponents will be more challenging
However, 2 Stargates does not hard counter this build. By the time you find out he's getting 2 Starports, the banshee harass stage early game is already over and Terran's nat will be up meaning your two economies will be the same. If it's the same, you can't afford any kind of stalker army without cutting your Phoenix production, and if you cut Phoenix production, it means you don't have air control. If he doesn't cut Phoenix production, it'll be a fun/lulzy game of mass Air Anti-Air armies haha. Except that Vikings can land, kekekekek (Phoenixes can pick them up though so it's not that big a deal, and if the Vikings get back into air mode then the Phoenixes will get a bit of dmg off before the Vikings finish transforming).
Most protoss may not know how to respond to terran doing this strategy, but many terrans might not know how to respond correctly to a protoss air response neither.
On November 12 2011 22:12 FaKeSC2 wrote: Very interesting build and great explanations. I am currently using Mech in low-masters since I don't like bio in TvP. What I am wondering about is, if that build is viable in a bo3 or bo5? Or is it a one-shot-cannon? Do you beat good players when they know you're doing that build? Do you think they will be able to beat it in the near future and that you re just winning at the moment because it's not popular, yet?
Also, what would you say is the strongest time of that build? Is lategame your goal? Do you fear it? Or do you think it's most likely equal if you go into lategame?
I think the build is "viable" in a Bo3 or Bo5 but of course it depends on your strategy/approach to the match.
For example, we all agree that 1 Rax Expand is a very safe, standard build. You can do this every set of a Bo5 or such match, right? However, if you fail to scout your opponent properly, he might just come in with a 4 gate WP sentry drop and kill you. Likewise, if you do this specific build to get mass air, he might just come out with a 4 gate and kill you. However, in both situations there is time to scout or adapt.
So I would say yes it is viable in a Bo3 or Bo5, but you probably don't want to be using any 1 strategy every game, even if it is 1 Rax Expand, but it all depends on the builds you've practiced, how comfortable you are with each build, etc.
On November 13 2011 06:21 Antisocialmunky wrote: You still have to reach a critical mass where you can:
Get enough minerals to spam expos and enough gas to fund your starport habit. If you get hit hard before that then you lose.
Can you give more specific examples? If you mean critical mass as in an air army to deal with ground army (or if you mean air army, please elaborate), then you don't need to engage it. Cannons don't do that well and leaving 1 HT as defense at each base can help but it isn't going to completely shut down harass, and it means supply that's not in your main army.
I find that the "get hit hard before that" is only early game, up until I get the PF. Once I get it up I feel extremely safe and my CC production skyrockets. If you get 816 minerals per base, and you have two, that's 1632 minerals, plus about 125 for that 1 MULE, so about 1850. If you only get 450 gas max on 2 base, that's like 4 Banshees, meaning you have 1000 minerals per minute left over after supply depots. Of course when your PF is up you won't have full saturation, but you'll already be pooling up a lot of minerals in comparison to your Protoss opponent who, if he doesn't get air, will be using most of it. And if he does go air, then it's just a matter of both players taking a shit ton of bases xD.
On November 12 2011 15:43 Unsinkable wrote: Seriously? What's the difference between turtling and this? I don't see how it can improve your overall skill level at all, you make bunkers & planetary fortresses? This is a strategy that helps you gain ladder points but doesn't help you gain any skill at all. I can turtle & cheese my way up to grandmasters but I didn't improve my skills at all. You rely on sniping observers and you lift off your command center in a base trade situation. Seriously?
You're not turtling. If Bio is focusing on harass, and Mech is focusing on defense, then Air is focusing on map control.
What is skill? winning. Ugh I hate always having to argue about skill but... there is NO SUCH THING AS SKILL. Only your ability to win. Winning is the only concrete thing you can look at to determine how "strong" someone is. You can abstractly estimate a player's strength by guessing if he will win or lose against certain players in certain matches in certain events/tournies on certain maps in the future, but that's all abstract and subjective, hence opinion. If you win, then in the end, you're the better player.
It seems like you just don't like this style of playing. If so, suit yourself. Is there something wrong with turtling? it is part of the game, learn it. Not that this build is ANYTHING close to turtling. It is the exact opposite.
You want me to keep my CCs not lifted off? How stupid is that? Want me to lose? How is purposefully losing "skill"?
I "rely" on sniping observers. For parts of the game. What does Bio rely on? Drops, forcing your opponent to fight in smaller engagements. Is there a problem with that? In the end the goal is to win. Mech relies on turtling, and then pushing forward at some point.
What's the difference? If you turtle your way to GM, good job! Your turtling skills are useful for any kind of match. If you cheese your way to GM, good job! Your cheesing skills are great for use in Bo1 matches, and can come in handy in Bo3+ matches too.
This build is not a cheese, hence this build takes "skill", or in other words, you can win with it and you can improve your chances of winning by improving your execution of this strategy.
In all honesty you seem a bit mad for some reason. Go cool off somewhere else o.o
Wow that was the best response I've seen in a while o.o... Thanks for keeping me motivated haha I like this style alot, but i'm so used to going bio so it's not going good at all :p haha. Gonna need MOAR practice.
I'm considering opening like that old iEchoic build. hm,, gonna look more into it hihi
If I could keep you motivated, then that's pretty cool, cus the purpose of that post of mine was far from that, haha. I'm glad you like it!
It you want to practice it, I think one of the most important parts is multitasking. So if you can just make a random map with a few protoss bases with a couple cannons at each and some stalkers and/or observers and/or HTs and just give yourself a random variety of air units at each one, and just do that for an hour, it should help a lot. Maybe even have a friend play as protoss, it can help him out too!
I mean that you need to be able to get to the critical point in your economy where you can get enough mineral income to start spamming pforts and I find it really hard if you go for a Pfort in your natural.
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
Turtle Vikings behind 1 or 2 turrets while mass expanding and making OCs instead of PFs. Take positions that are harder for ground units to get to, or areas that can be defended by ground later on by PFs. (Make PFs once you have air superiority and he begins to make ground army for offense, but this kind of Protoss response seems like a bad idea. So if he sticks with mass air, just keep making OCs, stay up in econ, and mass Vikings with maybe some Ravens for PDD. Lategame, make BCs to help deal with Phoenixes or to Yamato Carriers/Voids, but Vikings are quite quite good since their cost ratio is 2:1 mineral:gas).
On November 13 2011 08:56 Antisocialmunky wrote: I mean that you need to be able to get to the critical point in your economy where you can get enough mineral income to start spamming pforts and I find it really hard if you go for a Pfort in your natural.
Oh ok. Maybe share replay? On maps like Shakuras maybe you can get away with 2 bunkers of marines near the ramp and an OC, and then 1-2 more bunkers of marines later on.
I've been getting more ideas and thinking what if you take the natural very far away and keep expanding but make only OCs with good splitting up of buildings (make 3rd and 4th starport at expansion as well as all new depots, etc., and then make new stuff at the new third base, etc. etc.) You can make even more CCs even though he will be able to kill them and his ground army won't suffer some numbers.
I have a question (I'm only a Plat Protoss so I hope this sounds correct):
What do you do when the Protoss starts making HT to feedback Banshee/Raven/Battlecrusier, then they make archons to annihilate everything if it's clumped up?
On November 13 2011 09:53 astroorion wrote: I have a question (I'm only a Plat Protoss so I hope this sounds correct):
What do you do when the Protoss starts making HT to feedback Banshee/Raven/Battlecrusier, then they make archons to annihilate everything if it's clumped up?
HT = less stalkers, less mobility.
Answer is to harass more and slowly make more banshees and stop viking/raven and don't get BCs.
If you must engage or harass a base and there is a defending HT(s) there, then cloak-decloak quickly to drain energy. Then it's a waste of 150 gas which could have been 3 stalkers or 1.5 Phoenixes.
Archons are only 3 range so it's quite easy to kite them, and they are even less mobile than Stalkers.
Pretty much any kind of ground force loses vs this style, you have to focus on air.
Just remember there is no way the Protoss can force you to engage his HTs, so there is no danger. If he gets enough HTs and your army has enough % of banshees, u can just drain all energy and kill his army since he'll have so many less stalkers. 5 HTs could have been 15 Stalkers (2/0/2 or so), which is about as strong as 10 Banshees (0/0).
On November 09 2011 13:34 mizU wrote: Essentially this is one of those weird builds that people don't really know how to react to, so you'll have a high winrate against it for now?
Its not new, people have tried this before like i said with banshees makin up your army and then bcs. Its good, this is just a variation under a really detailed and extensive guide, I must say.
well maybe you and many other randoms on the internet have used this strategy but that doesn't mean it's seen the light of day in competitive play. I saw TvT on GSL that was sky terran style (I think it was TOP) but never saw anything like this in TvP. With that said, yeah you are probably going to be getting a lot of free wins because it's hard to react to and most protoss these days play a general style to try and stop a bunch of different cheese.
I think the one thing that made me feel uncomfortable with this build is that you are getting a planetary at your natural, I've never seen a pro ever decide to do that which makes me question the authenticity of this build. besides that toss in that video on metal wasn't very good
On November 09 2011 13:34 mizU wrote: Essentially this is one of those weird builds that people don't really know how to react to, so you'll have a high winrate against it for now?
Its not new, people have tried this before like i said with banshees makin up your army and then bcs. Its good, this is just a variation under a really detailed and extensive guide, I must say.
well maybe you and many other randoms on the internet have used this strategy but that doesn't mean it's seen the light of day in competitive play. I saw TvT on GSL that was sky terran style (I think it was TOP) but never saw anything like this in TvP. With that said, yeah you are probably going to be getting a lot of free wins because it's hard to react to and most protoss these days play a general style to try and stop a bunch of different cheese.
I think the one thing that made me feel uncomfortable with this build is that you are getting a planetary at your natural, I've never seen a pro ever decide to do that which makes me question the authenticity of this build.
I say try it out to see for yourself . Then again, no pro has went pure air TvP eh? Or you can watch some of my many replays. The PF gives you much needed defense and lets you survive into the midgame. If he comes to attack you, he will lose. You will have 3 base, he will have 2. By the time he reaches your base, he will have lost one of those bases, and by the time he kills either your nat or your third or even your main, he will have lost the second one. He won't have enough units to defend and also attack at the same time. He'll have to go through 1 mass repaired-PF two times, and then still have to deal with a army with cloak+PDD and that can float in space safely to get more energy back.
I've beaten a GM and other top masters with this strategy, so I think you can safely say that it is "authentic". If any mid masters player were to play a GM, they would most definitely lose almost every game, but that's not the case. Even if these significantly better opponents didn't react in the best way in the beginning, they should still be able to easily win by adapting mid-game with their much higher game sense / macro especially since they usually have better economy than me, but that is not the case.
Also, I've said multiple times throughout both this guide and the video. That game on metal is not to show "OMG look at how good this build is!" it is to show what a typical ladder game is like. I even said that the Protoss was clueless and confused. I think you should read more of the guide before giving feedback.
How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front.
In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in.
I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out.
On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote: How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Please check out my replays, there are a lot of other factors that stop that from happening. You are able to get almost double the Protoss' economy eventually so gas is not a problem. Also, there is no way he can force an engagement so essentially you are in a way turtling, but you are turtling not at home but while camping his base, waiting for the moment he leaves to kill everything.
Also, no matter how many obs you get, as long as they all die your banshees can kill everything. Every observer you get is 1.5 stalkers in gas cost. It only takes 3 shots with a viking to kill an observer. Get 10 Observers, your 10 vikings will still kill them before your stalkers can kill half the Banshees, especially since the observers take up your army cost.
And there have been a couple comparisons to Synystyr's guide but the opening is really quite different.
The way you describe it makes it sound like its this god like build that no one can stop and you have a reason for everything. That's if execution is perfect or until you face a protoss who decides to skip the natural and elevator into your main.... 3 gate blink robo with 2 obs might be able to do A LOT of damage, as well as a two base 5G,1Robo elevator build.
On November 13 2011 14:22 HikariPrime wrote: The way you describe it makes it sound like its this god like build that no one can stop and you have a reason for everything. That's if execution is perfect or until you face a protoss who decides to skip the natural and elevator into your main.... 3 gate blink robo with 2 obs might be able to do A LOT of damage, as well as a two base 5G,1Robo elevator build.
Sorry that is not my intention, but even if I have a response or answer to everything it doesn't mean it's unstoppable since it's a game of scouting and like you say, no one plays perfectly. If you look at the important timings section i do list some strategies that this build doesn't work against.
But like I said, you don't have to commit to this build or strategy if you see he doesn't have an expansion. At 4:30 if you scout an expansion, go ahead the build will be very safe. However, even if he's going for an expansion like 1 gate robo expand, that will be up later, and maybe you don't want to risk waiting to see if he puts an expo down because if it's a 1 base play it will probably be too late to respond (you can scan but that's an expensive 250 minerals).
A 3 gate robo blink will probably kill you, though I haven't actually heard of this strategy o.o. Although, it doesn't sound like a 5 gate robo elevator build would work, but again I am unfamiliar with it. Since my banshees should be camping your base it would be a favorable base trade since you have to walk a while before reaching my base and usually i have a third by then.
On November 13 2011 16:16 banthur wrote: how do you deal with a gas steal
You're sort of fucked, better to do a different strategy unless you plan on catching your opponent off guard by getting Banshees anyways . If you still wanna do it you can skip cloak until later, i guess, and maybe get 2 more banshees instead of the raven/viking... not sure. If you do rax first though, usually they won't gas steal you.
I had a game earlier today when a protoss tried to warp prism stalkers into my base(avoiding the bunker) early game, and I survived with a few scvs repairing. Early game I've found it's really hard for protoss to be aggressive, because stalkers just can't deal with repair in small numbers(whether on buildings or banshees). So that's something to keep in mind. This build doesn't seem like it would work as well as it does, but raven banshee really does destroy stalkers, and late game vikings do so well against protoss air it's unreal. So many protosses I've found try to base trade, but you always have more bases than the protoss, and your bases take much longer to kill because of repair.
On November 13 2011 17:05 Blindo wrote: I had a game earlier today when a protoss tried to warp prism stalkers into my base(avoiding the bunker) early game, and I survived with a few scvs repairing. Early game I've found it's really hard for protoss to be aggressive, because stalkers just can't deal with repair in small numbers(whether on buildings or banshees). So that's something to keep in mind. This build doesn't seem like it would work as well as it does, but raven banshee really does destroy stalkers, and late game vikings do so well against protoss air it's unreal. So many protosses I've found try to base trade, but you always have more bases than the protoss, and your bases take much longer to kill because of repair.
Oh did you win? I actually just played a game vs my clannie, he said he modified a build of WhiteRa's, basically it was like a 3 gate (4gate? I'll check) Robo, he dropped some units in the back of my main and started to warp in. Anyways I still ended up winning by scaring/delaying with marines/SCV until cloak finished, sent 1 banshee to his base and defended at home with cloak too (hid the 2nd starport). Not sure if the replay is any good though xD
Unfortunately with the WP health buff I don't think there is a way to respond by getting out a fast viking (canceling banshee) and trying to kill the WP, unless may be the air distance is a bit big and you guess his flight path (which shouldn't be too hard actually). Maybe if you send 1 SCV to 1 corner of the map to scout and send your viking to a good spot where his WP will enter your base, you can stop it. Have to figure out the timings
On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote: How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front.
In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in.
I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out.
Synystyr's old strategy is a FE into 4 port int BC. I dunno, I think its actually quite hard early game to make stalkers cost effective against banshees especially when you get 4 and can 2 shot stalkers and cliff them around the back of the main bases. Of course they aren't good vs stalkers on open field unless you have PDD but I think its debatable which unit is more cost effective early game.
You also have to think about mineral requirements since stalkers cost quite a few minerals.
On November 10 2011 16:25 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I've actually been thinking about making more OCs for Scans so that you can save gas for banshees instead of Ravens (up to 2 more bashees per raven). Except for lategame where the banshees will take too much food (6 food per 2 food), it might be better to have more banshees than to have PDD/Seeker Missile (which needs to be upgraded anyways). Do you have any input on this?
Well using scans is better from my perspective because decent P players will keep the observer in the back of the army. With the limited sight range of the raven its better to not sacrifice it and use scan instead then snipe the observer. For the lategsame I prefer firepower over ravens. But without enough PDD you will also die in seconds even if you have mass banshee. The raven/banshee balance needs to fit. This strat is hard to pull off in lategame because P players will drain your banshee and raven energy with attacking and retreating. Biggest thread are the blink stalker of course with storm feedback support or phoenix which are good to get rid of PDD.
I really like this buiiiild! I'm opening 1/1/2 (old iechoic build) and it's reallyyy niceeee. It's preaty awesome vs people that doesn't know how to respond correctly. But if you practice vs same guy it aloooot harder. I will have to practice more and see what the best response is to guys that know's what i'm doing
On November 13 2011 06:21 Antisocialmunky wrote: You still have to reach a critical mass where you can:
Get enough minerals to spam expos and enough gas to fund your starport habit. If you get hit hard before that then you lose.
I agree with this. Once you get to that point you're aight. But if he defence perfectly and shit it can be very hard.
Personally, I have no idea why this strategy is so underused - I feel like it has a lot of potential on some maps (say Meta close air) and that it is really underdeveloped in general.
I still haven't found a reliable way to play against this. Stalkers are so incredibly crappy for their cost, HTs are horribly expensive and vikings+PDD owns phoenixes. Usually I try some kind of 2 base blink all-in with a couple of obs....but then again, usually I just lose vs this style of play.... :/
Also HTX, yeah good point about the range. Scan lets you see so much. Since you don't really need MULEs (even if you want to expand more, faster) you will have a lot of Scans to use.
I was actually thinking a maxed out army of Banshees vs Stalkers (3/3 vs not 3/3/3 assuming you killed his forges a couple times) would win by a lot, but may be not if it's 200/200? Since it would mean 3 stalkers per 2 banshees, so yea it would seem it's a bit weak. So there goes the raw power idea eh?
I've been thinking a lot about making an OC at the natural instead. You can still put 2 bunkers with marines, though a big counterattack would kill you. However, since by the time a counterattack comes you already have your third, with an OC that might mean that you'll have your fourth building too. So maybe it is indeed better (as long as you spread/float your buildings between your bases and not put everything int he main). So it's like he has to kill 2 OC bases and then 2 PFs, instead of having to kill 1 PF, 1 OC, then another PF. Actually if this kind of situation occurs, perhaps it's better to just build your first expansion in the most inconvenient place possible for Protoss, like the low ground protected by rocks on Shakuras or the semi-islands on Shattered Temple.
On November 14 2011 02:42 sleepingdog wrote: Personally, I have no idea why this strategy is so underused - I feel like it has a lot of potential on some maps (say Meta close air) and that it is really underdeveloped in general.
I still haven't found a reliable way to play against this. Stalkers are so incredibly crappy for their cost, HTs are horribly expensive and vikings+PDD owns phoenixes. Usually I try some kind of 2 base blink all-in with a couple of obs....but then again, usually I just lose vs this style of play.... :/
I would like to know that too. I've been asking better players than me and they say it works, but I think the reasons why it's so underused consist of
1) Not wanting to risk committing time into a style that may or may not work as well as "standard" styles like marine/tank 2) A straight to pure air build being too tech heavy, leaving you vulnerable early on. Even if you can adapt and do a different strategy to a 1 base rush or such, you might have to end up playing out a game without playing pure air, and if you've practiced only pure air, you will be uncomfrotable.
Also, I think the only reliable way is to open up phoenixes to force terran into making Vikings and take lots of bases very fast. From there on I think, if both players play "properly", I think for Protoss, it is a game of cutting Phoenixes as soon as you have air control to leave gas for HTs, while for Terran, it is similar, trying to cut Vikings to make room for Banshee/Raven. HTs can't fly but Phoenixes are much faster than Vikings and can forge engagements or even just attack a bit and then run back out to regenerate shields, so I think the combination of slow HTs with fast Phoenixes should be OK. The HTs stop PDD, but I'm not sure what Protoss would do if Terran would just land his Vikings and kill everything xD
I found the replay I saw of a GM pure air terran game (though it sucks, so don't get excited)
I first started consider making OCs instead of PFs from what I remembered of this game. However, looking back, it looks like this "highish GM terran" played quite horribly. He had no harass and he did not utilize the strength of air terran - harassment and map control. Instead he just played like mech and turtled until he got a 200/200 army of BCs. Quite dumb I think =/. If he couldn't even go harass and take advantage of the style, I don't think he quite knew what he was doing either with the OCs. They both get to about 4 bases but then the terran suddenly stops; the protoss has realized already at this point that he has to get stargates and terran is going mass air, so he does get stargates and he gets up to 7+ bases while the terran stays on 4 the entire game. This was before Seeker Missile buff, but he still should have gotten it. It does so much damage vs Protoss air; at worst the Protoss will back off his units and the vikings will get more hits off (PDD doesn't work vs Voids!).
Also, he had horrible micro. He stacked up ALL his army into the AOE of just ONE single Storm, and didn't burn any of his energy nor stop making BCs after Protoss made a ton of HTs. After getting stormed, all his banshees stack up and the archons almost 2 shot everything.
So I want to know what you guys think but looking back I don't think this Terran knew what he was doing xD He lost his first 2 harassing banshees way too easily too.
Argg, played against this build last season, protoss has no reliable way to stop this besides a gas steal and even with that, its incredibly difficult to hold of.
Protoss units weren't built to hold off mass hair when its barely the midgame... and its almost impossible to hold off once they start getting momentum.
.__. how the hell do you stop this besides gassteal?
On November 14 2011 03:49 LanTAs wrote: Argg, played against this build last season, protoss has no reliable way to stop this besides a gas steal and even with that, its incredibly difficult to hold of.
Protoss units weren't built to hold off mass hair when its barely the midgame... and its almost impossible to hold off once they start getting momentum.
.__. how the hell do you stop this besides gassteal?
I have no idea lol, Protoss needs to stop Terran air, meaning Phoenixes (since voids and carriers die to vikings... except maybe carriers, but they need to be equal cost and carriers are pretty slow moving). However, Phoenixes can't shoot down so even if both players stay matched and 200/200 phoenix and 200/200 viking and split the map, the terran can just land all his vikings, kill some bases even with getting lifted up by graviton, and then the Phoenixes can't do shit since they can't kill the Terran's bases xD. Maybe though if the Protoss is good he can just kill all new Vikings as they build before they can gather up, and if he has 200/200 Phoenix then even a bunch of turrets won't do the trick. I haven't gotten this far with this strategy though.
I've seen one great hold of this by WhiteRa vs qxc, game was played a pretty long time ago (Metal close) - though I have no idea if qxc executed properly....yes I know how this sounds, but since this style is so underused, there is a lot of room for errors even for the elite players due to the lack of practice vs top-class opponents
As a Protoss, I was hoping I'd never see something like this on here! I have such a hard time dealing with this style. Even after scouting it and throwing up reactive stargates, its just such a nightmare. Hopefully Terrans don't actually start using this frequently.
On November 14 2011 17:55 sleepingdog wrote: I've seen one great hold of this by WhiteRa vs qxc, game was played a pretty long time ago (Metal close) - though I have no idea if qxc executed properly....yes I know how this sounds, but since this style is so underused, there is a lot of room for errors even for the elite players due to the lack of practice vs top-class opponents
Omg this is like gold! Thank you sooo much for finding! I still can't find Korean GM replays and I probably won't find em for a while since... I don't know Korean .
Omg im skipping around and THIS REALLY IS GOLD!
Like you said it looks like both players could have done so much more, for example qxc kept stacking his units SO much against storm and Archons, flying into cannons, etc. And this is before Seeker Missile buff.
But then again, they also do a lot of things I haven't tried or think work that well. For example the Ghosts in the medivac. Since you can transport them in a medivac it is as if they fly (in other words, you can keep them with your air army!) so that is pretty cool.
Anyways, like Husky said, I think he sort of "threw" the game. He just lost SO much to the HTs, and he kept keeping his air army where he could storm even without vision. For example he could have split up his units instead of having them be all at one base, cus he let WhiteRa take equal bases since there was no threat.
Thanks again :D
Edit: Skipping around some more, omg I can't believe any progamer could stack his units so much o.o (check out 18:00).
Yeah this build is too strong. hoping for a nerf to terran och buff to protoss soon since stalkers are awful AA (finally a build that makes people realize that stalkers are purely awful)
So I'm reporting back after having tried the build around 400 masters. I have been having strong success with my first few attempts at the build. Have been opening with my TvT cloak banshee expand. Died to void ray all in and 1 base blink stalkers with obs but other then that no problems.
My concerns about phoenixes did turn out to be incorrect since your ability to churn out vikings is just so much stronger then protoss ability to make phoenixes even off 2 stargates.
I pretty much try to do some damage with my first couple banshees, then get 2-3 ravens and spam as many banshees as I can and go back and kill as many stalkers as I can until my PDDs run out, retreat, repair, build more banshees, wait for coupel PDDs and repeat. I have also been employing the mass expand to distant expansions as suggested, and pretty much ignoring upgrades. Seems very effective.
Hanv't faced HTs yet but I can't imagine they will be able to do any better then the phoenix response since I will have so many more banshees.
Thanks for sharing statikg, and I'm glad that it's been working out! Another thing I realized is that, aside from Phoenix costing 25 more gas than Vikings, Stargates also cost 50 more gas xD. So that's like a Starport with Reactor, aka Vikings can be built so much faster (I'm not sure if it's a good idea to not have all Starports on Tech Labs though, maybe have an extra reactor nearby to some Starports so you can switch them over if needed?)
Also, I'll probably not update this guide until maybe... after Christmas break is over. Expect it to be more accurate, more helpful, more polished, etc. Currently I have a lot of ideas I want to try out and things still need to be figured out so it'll take a while to be sure, and I'm still getting rapidly better so I'll just update it once I'm a lot better. If anyone wants to practice against this style or help me out with some ideas hit me up Yoshi.855
Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units. Maybe even Nukes since you can deny Observers (omg this sounds so fun :D).
Also thinking about things like whether or not it's better to go with upgrades and max out a 200/200 meaty Banshee or BC army, or go for the spell-caster kind of army with mass Ravens which will be vulnerable to mass HTs but not if you get Ghosts in Medivacs. I think it'll be too hard for him to try to EMP multiple ghosts dropping from 2 or more Medivacs, while it'll be easy to queue your Medivacs to drop your Ghosts while you get ready to select them via control group and EMP. Maybe if you get mass Ravens in the lategame, and he counters by massing HTs, you can just spam PFs and kill his bases with them since HTs can't do nothing against PFs xD.
There's just so much to figure out, it's like if everyone plays Mech TvZ and no one knows about mass marine or marine/tank/medivac xD
I'm wondering if I add other styles (different ways to play air just like mech or bio), if I should just include them all into this guide, with each "style" in a huge huge spoiler, or just make a new thread for each one and keep this as an overview that might not touch on every single strategy/tactic/style with air compositions? Thanks in advance for any thoughts
I recently started laddering again at the start of the new season after a 4-5 month break and the only matchup I was having trouble with was toss. I would go mmmg as a final composition but would always just get torn apart by storms and charge zealots, unless i finished the game off early with a strong stim or drop timing. Im only high platinum, but this build has basically made tvp my best matchup now after only a few attempts. Now its my goto build and Ive been trying to refine it depending on the map. Unless Im sure he is expanding after I scout with scv and then helion, i continue marine production until I have about 6-8 with two bunkers ay my ramp before expand. I also try to build my buildings on the side of the main close to the nat, this seems to be the most effective way of dealing with a void or blink stalker rush. Pull scv's as needed and just make sure your banshees and extra cc are on the way asap to help defend while you stall with marines.
I played a match on Nerazim Crypt yesterday where my first couple cloaked banshee basically stopped his entire 1base gameplan for just enough time for me to get my PF up and running. I was bottom right he was bottom left. I saved both banshees and bought them home to defend. Next thing you know I have 8 pf's lining the north and east edges of the map and he still hasnt even ventured to the top half of the map yet. When he finally noticed my pf at 11oclock, my banshee force sniped both his nexus before he even realized what was happening. I almost felt bad for him.
I often watch the replays afterwards and it seems like Im always so far behind in supply around the time of my harass that I should be dead at any possible moment but the air superiority is just too much to deal with it seems. Also, I love how the only resource I pay attention to is gas. Makes everything so much easier when minerals are an afterthought and I dont even ever drop a mule. I also like how witht he early expos you can spread your scvs out thinner which means bases last longer and arnt that big a deal to lose.
I was browsing GameReplays.org and noticed this masters-level player doing a TvP pure air style. Looks like he does a fast expand with an orbital at the natural, protected by an arrangement of a quick PF straddled by two bunkers. The PF and bunkers are actually placed in front of the orbital at the natural.
This interesting turtle arrangement is followed up, similar to your build, by numerous starports pumping out mass banshees and a few ravens/vikings, aggressive PF expansion, turret spam, and late game BC's. His initial banshee attack is a bit later than yours, and his approach isn't quite so harassment-style, but his economy is probably better, given the 2nd orbital. Similar to your replays, his food count was almost always behind his opponent (sometimes 50 behind), but the build appeared to be quite effective, even against double starport.
I don't know if you can take much from these, but perhaps it might give you some more ideas to incorporate. Nice build and writeup!
I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway.
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made?
As a P player, I'd suggest Thors from the factory if they are going phoenix off those 2 starports. I react to 2+ stsrports with phoenixes and cannons but the moment I see Thor production I stop making phoenix. I'm only diamond and I am not advising mass Thor transitions. But 2 or 3 Thors and I won't know what to do with my phoenixes as I try to run them out of harms way. Of course, both Thors and banshees are countered by feedback--but even a feedbacked Thor still tanks enough damage to make phoenix engagement difficult.
On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote: How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front.
In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in.
I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out.
Yea I was wondering the same thing. When I used to play T I would throw in a build that was like Synsters. As toss (I'm only diamond), I find that I usually have better macro than the Ts that I play that use this style so I generally win if the game goes on for awhile.
BUT, as other posters have said, if I don't scout it (in other words, if you are a turret-whore and I lose 2 obs when trying to get a feel for your production), then I am going to lose.
I would say that the strength of this build is that it forces toss into a non-standard unit composition. That said, to the extent that you are too focused on air, it becomes relatively straightforward for me as I can focus on air, air upgrades, and HTs.I find it more difficult when the T mixes in Thors and tanks.
And a note about BCs: if you DO prompt an over-investment in phoenixs, consider a couple of BCs.
tl;dr Just because this build relies, in part, on forcing the toss into uncomfortable-non-standard play doesn't make it illegitimate. HOWEVER, as a lowly-diamond-toss, I do find the element of surprise to be its major strength. If I scout it in time, I am pretty confident that my macro will get me the win.
On November 18 2011 04:36 Cloudshade wrote: I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
Thanks! Will watch this weekend <3
On November 18 2011 04:36 Cloudshade wrote: I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
Please check the strategy guidelines, you have no evidence or reasoning as to why you just "need to get either templar or phoenix". It's like saying Banelings counter Marines. Sure, generally, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the answer to Marines. Given specific situations, like in small numbers, in open areas, if the Terran has more econ, or whatever, etc. etc., the Banelings might actually be a bad choice since Marines can split cost efficiently if the micro is good.
Also, you obviously spent like 0 effort looking at this guide because you missed the massive disclaimer right next to the video.
Not to be rude but this kind of post is 0% constructive =/
On November 18 2011 04:42 zmansman17 wrote: This is a good build that may catch Toss offguard but certainly something that cannot be done twice to the same person
Disagree. There are different ways to transition into air style. If you can cheese someone once in a Bo3 or Bo5 or bigger, you can do it again. You don't have to choose a different cheese every game (not that this is a cheese).
Also, the 2 replays i have (vs Top Master who knows how to deal with air, and the game on crevasse) are from a Bo3 tournament, so I just proved you wrong ^_^
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.
I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway.
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways
that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made?
As a P player, I'd suggest Thors from the factory if they are going phoenix off those 2 starports. I react to 2+ stsrports with phoenixes and cannons but the moment I see Thor production I stop making phoenix. I'm only diamond and I am not advising mass Thor transitions. But 2 or 3 Thors and I won't know what to do with my phoenixes as I try to run them out of harms way. Of course, both Thors and banshees are countered by feedback--but even a feedbacked Thor still tanks enough damage to make phoenix engagement difficult.
At least for my style, focusing on harass, Thors are completely the opposite of what i want... The point of going pure air is because you can keep your army together, more mobile than your opponent. By splitting your army up into slow units like Thors, you are splitting your own army up just like the Protoss is. However, Medivac+Thor can be interesting. I'm excited to test that out lol. 400/300 is a lot though, and Thors don't do that much dps, will have to see if they do enough to kill phoenixes or if the phoenixes can just jump in and snipe everything to death. I guess with PDD/SM you should be fine. I wonder if you pick up your thors fast enough and have your air army over them, if it will be difficult for the HTs to actually click on the Thors, especially if you have BCs xD.
I also want to say for like the 9001th time (though the guide is really long so I understand lol), feedback only stops cloak, it does not counter Banshees. 1 HT could have been 3 Stalkers (gas is the limiting resource for both races in this style). His army will be so weak as long as you have a Banshee heavy army. I'm curious if you would want ghosts with your thors also in medivacs. A HT can feedback a thor but it's not going to help him kill the Thor unless he also has Stalkers... which means he has to have more ground units. Zealots can be scary but with epic micro you could just pick the Thor back up and drop micro to kill Phoenix.
So i've won like everygame i've done this. Except when i didn't see warp prism...(t-t) I'm master EU btw. I dont really know what toss is supposed to do. haha. so imbaaaa))
One guy said he would beat it if he saw it again. Imma play vs him again and come back. He's better than me tho (imo) and still i won with pure air after doing alot of mistakes.
On November 18 2011 05:55 kusu wrote: So i've won like everygame i've done this. Except when i didn't see warp prism...(t-t) I'm master EU btw. I dont really know what toss is supposed to do. haha. so imbaaaa))
One guy said he would beat it if he saw it again. Imma play vs him again and come back. He's better than me tho (imo) and still i won with pure air after doing alot of mistakes.
siiiickkkkk
Cool man very nice. Since you are Master on EU you may be even better than me xD
My friend has been doing this against me for 2 years and I still have an extremely difficult time with it. I'm Masters toss he is Platinum terran. Lots of banshee and vikings into BC is just so powerful.
It's been nice not having to deal with it on the ladder so I hate you for this. <3
On November 18 2011 05:58 flyguy wrote: This is so hard to deal with as a Protoss.
My friend has been doing this against me for 2 years and I still have an extremely difficult time with it. I'm Masters toss he is Platinum terran. Lots of banshee and vikings into BC is just so powerful.
It's been nice not having to deal with it on the ladder so I hate you for this. <3
Haha I'm sorry
Are you actually seeing it more now? a couple people said they've started facing it a lot. At the same time I feel it's cool people read my guide and try out new things but at same time I want to keep the strategy as much as a surprise as possible :D
This is a style that I hope more pros can make viable in the future. SC2 should be as versatile as possible, since the current metagame favors the bio ball against protoss. Air battles, from a spectator's perspective, are enjoyable to watch. Whether it be mobile muta/viking/phoenix dogfights, or late game capital fleets, it is generally enjoyable to watch and brings variety to the game.
On November 17 2011 18:43 caduceus wrote: I was browsing GameReplays.org and noticed this masters-level player doing a TvP pure air style. Looks like he does a fast expand with an orbital at the natural, protected by an arrangement of a quick PF straddled by two bunkers. The PF and bunkers are actually placed in front of the orbital at the natural.
This interesting turtle arrangement is followed up, similar to your build, by numerous starports pumping out mass banshees and a few ravens/vikings, aggressive PF expansion, turret spam, and late game BC's. His initial banshee attack is a bit later than yours, and his approach isn't quite so harassment-style, but his economy is probably better, given the 2nd orbital. Similar to your replays, his food count was almost always behind his opponent (sometimes 50 behind), but the build appeared to be quite effective, even against double starport.
I don't know if you can take much from these, but perhaps it might give you some more ideas to incorporate. Nice build and writeup!
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
On November 18 2011 06:37 Bagration wrote: This is a style that I hope more pros can make viable in the future. SC2 should be as versatile as possible, since the current metagame favors the bio ball against protoss. Air battles, from a spectator's perspective, are enjoyable to watch. Whether it be mobile muta/viking/phoenix dogfights, or late game capital fleets, it is generally enjoyable to watch and brings variety to the game.
I agree. It's nice that we see it in TvT once in a while though, eh? I mean it's called STAR craft. Don't ya think star battles would fit? xD
Sort of cool cus terran is like the traditional RTS style, and the [turtling to get] big [air] battles sounds traditional too xD
Problem with that match of whitera posted above is that there is still Khaydarin Amulet.. Yeh give me that and i have no problem with dealing with this style hehe
On November 20 2011 18:25 YosHGo wrote: Problem with that match of whitera posted above is that there is still Khaydarin Amulet.. Yeh give me that and i have no problem with dealing with this style hehe
Thanks for pointing that out, so in other words, given the already stated major mistakes of QXC, and now also the fact that KA isn't in the game anymore, the air style is definitely "viable" ^^
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
These were the only ones I found, and I noticed them just by chance. They were titled something like "TvP Fast PF". There were 4 replays in total, although one was mislabeled and was a TvZ (so I didn't post it above). The player's name was Guacamole.
OT, but I wish replay sites would require better descriptions for public replays. "XvY" isn't terribly helpful if you're trying to look up strats. I can understand ones submitted for help, but demonstrative replays are so much easier to find with a decent description. (I'm a replay junkie).
been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
LOL! this strat is hell a fun and hilarious. Protoss just seems helpless. even if they 2 stargate it doesn't even matter. i'm able to take way more expands than the toss. i got rolled by this when i was off racing as toss. I decided to give it a try and wow. Hella fun. Funny as hell when the toss rofls his way outta the game
On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote: been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
Can you post some replays of losses at M / GM level. I'm sure it would help P's who struggle with this and also assist yoshi see the major weaknesses in the build.
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
These were the only ones I found, and I noticed them just by chance. They were titled something like "TvP Fast PF". There were 4 replays in total, although one was mislabeled and was a TvZ (so I didn't post it above). The player's name was Guacamole.
OT, but I wish replay sites would require better descriptions for public replays. "XvY" isn't terribly helpful if you're trying to look up strats. I can understand ones submitted for help, but demonstrative replays are so much easier to find with a decent description. (I'm a replay junkie).
Ah, k. Yeah I agree, even when I was trying to name my replays I was like, uhh, what to name? haha. And it's hard to list the highlights for the description without putting too much time.
On November 22 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote: LOL! this strat is hell a fun and hilarious. Protoss just seems helpless. even if they 2 stargate it doesn't even matter. i'm able to take way more expands than the toss. i got rolled by this when i was off racing as toss. I decided to give it a try and wow. Hella fun. Funny as hell when the toss rofls his way outta the game
I agree man, I get so much BM (well, mostly ragequits I think, but still)
On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote: been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
OMG masters on KR? haha. Can you show some replays though? even just one. I agree with you, I've realized one thing that Protoss has that Terran doesn't; the ability to control the Terran's unit composition.
Stalkers can attack both air and ground. Vikings can attack both air and ground, but have to transform, which makes it much less versatile than the Stalker. Since the Terran has to make sure he has enough AA, the Protoss can start cutting Phoenixes and get other units. The Terran might have AA, but it's useless without any actual air-ground units. I've been relying on scanning his main to see how many stargates he has and if/when his HT tech will get up, etc. However, I am still experimenting with the idea that, as long as you have a little air to ground, and go double armory, your AA will be fine and, if you are able to deny all detection, then your banshees (even if just a couple) will be fine. However, problems exist such as the Protoss bringing in 1 observer at a time. This costs a lot of gas though, so I'm unsure of it. Perhaps double armory + mass vikings in this situation could work; the Vikings will actually beat the Stalkers. Even if it doesn't work too well, at least it's not an instant loss where all your AA becomes useless, like his Phoenix are pretty useless.
Then again, another way to solve the problem is to transition into BCs. These are a bit slow, but in HotS they will get some kind of boost ability.
Anyways I still have a lot of ideas to try out. For example, using Medivac-Ghosts to deal with the Phoenixes and HTs. The phoenixes will inevitably stack up, and the Ghosts can counter the HTs' effectiveness. Too bad EMP got nerfed -.-;
On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote: been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
Can you post some replays of losses at M / GM level. I'm sure it would help P's who struggle with this and also assist yoshi see the major weaknesses in the build.
Yea what he said <3
Edit: Another idea is transitioning into Mass Raven, with a couple Medivacs and Ghosts. PDD, drop the Ghosts, and instantly EMP so they can't feedback you. It's more gas heavy than HT/Stalker, but if he wants to feedback all of your Ravens, he'll need just as many HTs, and HT/Stalker is almost as gas intensive as Ghost/Raven, and HT/Stalker is a grounded army.
God there's so much to test out haha, I just hope this strategy will work out in the end.
On November 23 2011 10:20 Kevinshi3 wrote: YOSHI FIGHTING! I like how you have vids to support your ideas, nicely made thread
i got rolled today by litterally bansheee viking raven even with funguls curruptors and mutalisk( i even used hydralisk i was so desperate) and i had most of the map and 3/3 hes air wasn't upgraded at all and he still straight up beat me.......0_0
his banshees had cloak......... my overseers were useless due to the vikings range of 9.......... and my curruptors and mutalisk and queens and spores and hydralisk couldn't hit the banshees/vikings due to the PDD's
its kindof scary that a banshee does the same damge as a BW battlecruiser but with better DPS
not saying masss air is uncounterable but holy crap..... like ghost mech really strong and my god if the terrans learned how to stay up on vehical and ship weapons and armor(double armory) on all match ups my god....................... 0_0 and if they went into BC's being mass reapired by SCV's or mules. wtih ravens with HSM.....
searously guys the raven is like the dark archon.. takes alot of upgrading but WOW is it good in the right hands and since most terrans tend to float alot of gas.........................
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL
when u compare raven to reaver, wow o.o
Also yes i love all those upgrades!
its 125 damage actually, not 100 and yes I'm right about the spash( HUGE radius) adn like i said the raven is a combo of BW units and like the DA its amazing when invested in and used right
Also i should have included its like a science vessel in the sence that its a flying dectector castor ship
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL
when u compare raven to reaver, wow o.o
Also yes i love all those upgrades!
its 125 damage actually, not 100 and yes I'm right about the spash( HUGE radius) adn like i said the raven is a combo of BW units and like the DA its amazing when invested in and used right
Also i should have included its like a science vessel in the sence that its a flying dectector castor ship
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
Seeker Missile damage drops of dramatically from distance from the center. Just like Siege Tanks and Nukes. Seeker Missile does 100 damage to units within 0.5 range of the center (Zerglings are 0.25 if I remember correctly). 50 damage to units within 1.0 range of center. 25 damage to units within 2.0 range of center.
For comparison: Nuke: 8.0, damage scales down with distance from center Baneling: 2.2, no friendly fire Fungal: 2.0, no friendly fire Seeker Missile: 2.0, damage scales down with distance from center Psi Storm: 1.5 EMP: 1.5 Siege Tank: 1.25, damage scales down with distance from center Planetary Fortress: 1.25, no friendly fire, damage scales down with distance from center Thor: 0.5, no friendly fire
On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
Seeker Missile damage drops of dramatically from distance from the center. Just like Siege Tanks and Nukes. Seeker Missile does 100 damage to units within 0.5 range of the center (Zerglings are 0.25 if I remember correctly). 50 damage to units within 1.0 range of center. 25 damage to units within 2.0 range of center.
For comparison: Nuke: 8.0, damage scales down with distance from center Baneling: 2.2, no friendly fire Fungal: 2.0, no friendly fire Seeker Missile: 2.0, damage scales down with distance from center Psi Storm: 1.5 EMP: 1.5 Siege Tank: 1.25, damage scales down with distance from center Planetary Fortress: 1.25, no friendly fire, damage scales down with distance from center Thor: 0.5, no friendly fire
Wow, didn't know/realize fungal was so big o.o
Also, hah no wonder they nerfed HSM to 6 range back then, even though it was slow.
Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
On November 24 2011 03:57 bLah. wrote: Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
Not true. It's not a good spell if there are any number of HTs out and the protoss has good control, but beyond that I've won a lot of games where 3-4 seeker missiles have been the defining part of the winning battle. If you're playing a heavy banshee harass style, and you're successfully picking off tech, seeker missile is absolutely viable as a support spell. I personally like pdd more, but once you have like ten ravens, there's no reason not to spam seeker missile.
Seeker missile is a really bad spell, it only does good damage in the middle, and protoss units are generally large. Also once you use seeker missile you can only use turret, whereas a full energy raven can use PDD twice. Two PDDs is battle changing esp with this strategy, HSM is not. HSM also puts your raven badly in harms way.
On November 24 2011 03:57 bLah. wrote: Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
On November 24 2011 04:20 statikg wrote: Seeker missile is a really bad spell, it only does good damage in the middle, and protoss units are generally large. Also once you use seeker missile you can only use turret, whereas a full energy raven can use PDD twice. Two PDDs is battle changing esp with this strategy, HSM is not. HSM also puts your raven badly in harms way.
Don't agree, as I've stated in the guide I've tried out numerous numbers and compositions, and HSM always ended up killing slightly more than 1 PDD. If you have 200/200 energy though, then yes of course use 2 PDD instead. But HSM does a shit ton of damage.
Stalkers might not clump up too much, but since their DPS is so slow, being able to use an instant-dmg spell like HSM is really good. If they get void rays or phoenixes, it is good too since air units stack so much if he doesn't split them carefully.
Don't agree with it putting Ravens in harms way, it is a bit dangerous but their units should be automatically targetting your other air units, plus you should have some PDD down too (try to PDD with the ravens that have 200/200, if any).
Awesome guide; well written and extremely thorough. Thank you for sharing this with the community, I cannot wait to try it out. Will you be writing more guides? Like TvZ or TvT?
On November 24 2011 05:30 Ragnarok87 wrote: Awesome guide; well written and extremely thorough. Thank you for sharing this with the community, I cannot wait to try it out. Will you be writing more guides? Like TvZ or TvT?
Yeah i'll be writing a TvZ and TvT guide too, TvZ either ghost nuke opening on shakuras or gumiho's mech-air, TvT rainbow's mech opening vs clide in GSL super tourny
seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
And yes I'm experimenting with bringing medivacs+ghosts along to allow me to not have to switch to full Banshee production just to react to heavy HTs. Terran might be able to just rape a Protoss head on if he's HT heavy and you have a couple EMPs ready. (or you can just mass BC, stack them all up, EMP them once or twice with one ghost, then go attack :D)
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
just to be caustic and to counter your arguments in your own style: protoss can always dodge emps, seeker missiles, and even banshee rockets with warp prism micro - remember that with speed upgrade warp prism outruns the vikings, and with mothership cloaking field it can even dodge the lanzer torpedoes. protoss can always blink with the targeted stalker into a group of your troops and cause massive damage to your own units with your own seeker missile. the same goes for chargelots.
and if i'm serious, there really CAN'T be a situation where terran has multiple seeker missiles ready to launch and toss has no HTs.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
toss can theoretically do the same with warp prism - dodge emps while feedbacking the medivac... see the edited post above. and automaton 2000 can trade 200 marines for 400 banelings
This works vs zerg also, or at least vs ME, because I found one terran in low diamond who just did this build, and it was like:
Me: "Oh, fortress on the natural, it is fine, third and mutas" Me: "WTF!!! 4 ports with techlab?? 2 mins later: LOL; mass raven, this guy is such noob... (zounds of turrets and wall in prevent me to enter their base with mutas) 4 minutes later: one misclick and my muta ball dissapear because of HSM + lings and ultras got raped by shees and turrets. Oh wait...
Of course this build works mostly because it is strange, and you have the advantage since you know what you are doing and your oponent doesn't.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 17:43 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:06 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:53 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:40 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
toss can theoretically do the same with warp prism - dodge emps while feedbacking the medivac... see the edited post above. and automaton 2000 can trade 200 marines for 400 banelings
just to be caustic and to counter your arguments in your own style: protoss can always dodge emps, seeker missiles, and even banshee rockets with warp prism micro - remember that with speed upgrade warp prism outruns the vikings, and with mothership cloaking field it can even dodge the lanzer torpedoes. protoss can always blink with the targeted stalker into a group of your troops and cause massive damage to your own units with your own seeker missile. the same goes for chargelots.
and if i'm serious, there really CAN'T be a situation where terran has multiple seeker missiles ready to launch and toss has no HTs.
Would you stop being caustic if I counter all your arguments right now?
If both HT and Ghost dodge, they both waste 75 energy. Then guess what? No EMP nor Storm goes off. So it's an equal situation in regards to the Ravens making your army weaker or stronger.
Yes but trading 200 marines for 400 blings is like humanely impossible, or at least an extremely incredible feat if pulled off, while dodging a Colossus beam just takes a couple minutes of practice, and is only a few actions.
I don't understand what this "counter your arguments in your own style" is. I'm just saying why the things you're saying aren't true, are wrong, or are unrealistic, and now you're just making it hard.
You're not going to make a bunch of WP for your army because that's a waste of minerals and Terran will outexpand you and/or you won't have zealots to help kill Terran's bases.
Why would you need to shoot down the WP with the vikings, as long as the ground army isn't on the ground ready to fight?
You have Ravens and Scans to detect Mothership cloak.
You can't dodge seeker missiles if he already blinked and you SM him soon after. Also, you can SM Void Rays, Carriers, Phoenix. The same could go for you, you could SM a couple hellions and run them into their army when the SM comes in range of 2 (once in range of 2 of the target, it will hit no matter what).
HTs can't fly, sorry. So HTs will not always be present. They also won't be present if you snipe the HT building thingy.
On November 24 2011 18:04 Eviscerador wrote: This works vs zerg also, or at least vs ME, because I found one terran in low diamond who just did this build, and it was like:
Me: "Oh, fortress on the natural, it is fine, third and mutas" Me: "WTF!!! 4 ports with techlab?? 2 mins later: LOL; mass raven, this guy is such noob... (zounds of turrets and wall in prevent me to enter their base with mutas) 4 minutes later: one misclick and my muta ball dissapear because of HSM + lings and ultras got raped by shees and turrets. Oh wait...
Of course this build works mostly because it is strange, and you have the advantage since you know what you are doing and your oponent doesn't.
Pretty sick guide anyway, very good work.
Thanks for sharing ^^ Did you try Infestors though? Maybe with Corruptors and/or Hydras? and maybe burn minerals on lings to kill his bases/SCVs?
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
true you didn't, but your sending it on the right track................ god if only terrans actaully used ravens more. there like the science vessels little borther
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 17:43 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:06 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:53 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:40 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
true you didn't, but your sending it on the right track................ god if only terrans actaully used ravens more. there like the science vessels little borther
Except that HSM does instant damage and can affect non-biological units, too :D
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 17:43 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:06 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:53 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:40 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:35 Ganseng wrote: seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss. come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me? and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
toss can theoretically do the same with warp prism - dodge emps while feedbacking the medivac... see the edited post above. and automaton 2000 can trade 200 marines for 400 banelings
just to be caustic and to counter your arguments in your own style: protoss can always dodge emps, seeker missiles, and even banshee rockets with warp prism micro - remember that with speed upgrade warp prism outruns the vikings, and with mothership cloaking field it can even dodge the lanzer torpedoes. protoss can always blink with the targeted stalker into a group of your troops and cause massive damage to your own units with your own seeker missile. the same goes for chargelots.
and if i'm serious, there really CAN'T be a situation where terran has multiple seeker missiles ready to launch and toss has no HTs.
Would you stop being caustic if I counter all your arguments right now?
If both HT and Ghost dodge, they both waste 75 energy. Then guess what? No EMP nor Storm goes off. So it's an equal situation in regards to the Ravens making your army weaker or stronger.
Yes but trading 200 marines for 400 blings is like humanely impossible, or at least an extremely incredible feat if pulled off, while dodging a Colossus beam just takes a couple minutes of practice, and is only a few actions.
I don't understand what this "counter your arguments in your own style" is. I'm just saying why the things you're saying aren't true, are wrong, or are unrealistic, and now you're just making it hard.
You're not going to make a bunch of WP for your army because that's a waste of minerals and Terran will outexpand you and/or you won't have zealots to help kill Terran's bases.
Why would you need to shoot down the WP with the vikings, as long as the ground army isn't on the ground ready to fight?
You have Ravens and Scans to detect Mothership cloak.
You can't dodge seeker missiles if he already blinked and you SM him soon after. Also, you can SM Void Rays, Carriers, Phoenix. The same could go for you, you could SM a couple hellions and run them into their army when the SM comes in range of 2 (once in range of 2 of the target, it will hit no matter what).
HTs can't fly, sorry. So HTs will not always be present. They also won't be present if you snipe the HT building thingy.
On November 24 2011 18:04 Eviscerador wrote: This works vs zerg also, or at least vs ME, because I found one terran in low diamond who just did this build, and it was like:
Me: "Oh, fortress on the natural, it is fine, third and mutas" Me: "WTF!!! 4 ports with techlab?? 2 mins later: LOL; mass raven, this guy is such noob... (zounds of turrets and wall in prevent me to enter their base with mutas) 4 minutes later: one misclick and my muta ball dissapear because of HSM + lings and ultras got raped by shees and turrets. Oh wait...
Of course this build works mostly because it is strange, and you have the advantage since you know what you are doing and your oponent doesn't.
Pretty sick guide anyway, very good work.
Thanks for sharing ^^ Did you try Infestors though? Maybe with Corruptors and/or Hydras? and maybe burn minerals on lings to kill his bases/SCVs?
you always describe such weird situations that will occur more seldom than a yamato cannon will be fired on a marine (but you'll probably say it can happen...) if you build medivacs why can't he build warp prisms?.. but whatever if you want to beat protoss with seeker missiles good luck in it. and by the way feedback costs 50 energy not 75 and max. energy on ht is 200. and medivac will most likely not survive the feedback unless... you emp it beforehand lol.
On November 24 2011 16:40 Zergrusher wrote: [quote]
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: [quote]
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
wow dude if you can do medivac-ghost drop-pick up micro in front of colossus and high templar while firing emps... why aren't you gsl champion?
Dude, it's like, not that hard. You realize that if you pick up a unit before the Colossus animation ends, the damage doesn't go through? So you have that time to EMP and load back up. But really all that's important is if your EMPs go off and stop Storm/Feedback. If he has colossus that's really crippling him, could be 4 stalkers instead.
On November 24 2011 17:43 Zergrusher wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:37 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 17:06 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:53 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:40 Zergrusher wrote: [quote]
hears a hint......... use EMP
sure i'll emp the ravens before the engagement. would you please not flood the topic with your counterproductive suggestions?
for all the people who might think his posts actually make sense i'll make it clear. emp has a range of 10. seeker missile has a range of 6. feedback has a range of 9. colossus has a range of 9. so if we have a templar 2 squares behind a colossus, ghost will obviously be roasted if he tries to emp the templar. on the other hand a raven will be feedbacked if it tries to launch the missile at the colossus. the contrary will happen only in negligible amount of cases, given the skilllevels are somehow even.
then the templar will not be able to feedback, and why would he have colossi? waste of gas =/
Also since EMP has 1.5 radius, it beats feedback by 2.5 matrices. So if the templar is 2 squares behind, he'll actually still be hit o.o
But once again, colossi are a waste
On November 24 2011 16:54 Ganseng wrote:
On November 24 2011 16:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: [quote]
I never said to use seeker missile vs HTs o.o
yeah but if toss is not totally brain-damaged he'll get the hts, and they are such an insanely hard counter. really it's like massing phoenixes against thors!
Then you are putting words into my mouth =/
Also, he's talking about EMPing the HTs...
ehhhh why won't templar be able to feedback? he'll feedback, kill 200 gas, spend 50 energy. colossi are needed to dispatch ghosts and kill your stuff: buildings, scvs etc. blink stalkers or chargelots can actually also protect templars from ghosts, but not as easily. i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said seeker missile can be strong against toss, didn't you? I say no, it can only be strong if the toss player is ways worse than the terran player. don't take me wrong, i like your creativity and acknowledge the fact that you beat some master toss with it, but i've seen dudes like qxc trying to execute it against dudes like white-ra or socke... to no success. and it looked more one-sided than zerglings vs. colossi.
Because he's sitting behind the Colossi, and if he goes in front of the Colossi, he will get EMPd, and why would you bring forth your Ravens if he has HTs?
First of all, you don't need Ghosts, and even if he does get Colossi you can drop micro and dodge all Colossus damage with your Ghosts o.o. Also, no Colossi are not needed, it is quite a waste of 200 gas since they can't attack air. Much better to just get zealots with all the minerals you should have.
I said it can be strong. There CAN be a situation where Toss doesn't have HTs. I did not say use SM on HTs. You said the Protoss will have HTs, so it doesn't matter. Therefore, you are putting words into my mouth, because you created a counter to a statement that I didn't even make.
Also, if you check out the video I linked with QXC vs WhiteRa? I pointed out a lot of QXC's mistakes that would have allowed him to win if he fixed them. So, it definitely "works", whether or not it is "stronger" than normal bio MMM V/G is a different story.
Yoshi, your a great inovator of the meta game, i jsut wish people would realise how powerful this style is when its perfected and upgrades are involved
haha well i'm certainly not the first to play air style, and even then you would need to show it a lot in pro level play to be a "great inovator of the metagame" but thanks xD
toss can theoretically do the same with warp prism - dodge emps while feedbacking the medivac... see the edited post above. and automaton 2000 can trade 200 marines for 400 banelings
just to be caustic and to counter your arguments in your own style: protoss can always dodge emps, seeker missiles, and even banshee rockets with warp prism micro - remember that with speed upgrade warp prism outruns the vikings, and with mothership cloaking field it can even dodge the lanzer torpedoes. protoss can always blink with the targeted stalker into a group of your troops and cause massive damage to your own units with your own seeker missile. the same goes for chargelots.
and if i'm serious, there really CAN'T be a situation where terran has multiple seeker missiles ready to launch and toss has no HTs.
Would you stop being caustic if I counter all your arguments right now?
If both HT and Ghost dodge, they both waste 75 energy. Then guess what? No EMP nor Storm goes off. So it's an equal situation in regards to the Ravens making your army weaker or stronger.
Yes but trading 200 marines for 400 blings is like humanely impossible, or at least an extremely incredible feat if pulled off, while dodging a Colossus beam just takes a couple minutes of practice, and is only a few actions.
I don't understand what this "counter your arguments in your own style" is. I'm just saying why the things you're saying aren't true, are wrong, or are unrealistic, and now you're just making it hard.
You're not going to make a bunch of WP for your army because that's a waste of minerals and Terran will outexpand you and/or you won't have zealots to help kill Terran's bases.
Why would you need to shoot down the WP with the vikings, as long as the ground army isn't on the ground ready to fight?
You have Ravens and Scans to detect Mothership cloak.
You can't dodge seeker missiles if he already blinked and you SM him soon after. Also, you can SM Void Rays, Carriers, Phoenix. The same could go for you, you could SM a couple hellions and run them into their army when the SM comes in range of 2 (once in range of 2 of the target, it will hit no matter what).
HTs can't fly, sorry. So HTs will not always be present. They also won't be present if you snipe the HT building thingy.
On November 24 2011 18:04 Eviscerador wrote: This works vs zerg also, or at least vs ME, because I found one terran in low diamond who just did this build, and it was like:
Me: "Oh, fortress on the natural, it is fine, third and mutas" Me: "WTF!!! 4 ports with techlab?? 2 mins later: LOL; mass raven, this guy is such noob... (zounds of turrets and wall in prevent me to enter their base with mutas) 4 minutes later: one misclick and my muta ball dissapear because of HSM + lings and ultras got raped by shees and turrets. Oh wait...
Of course this build works mostly because it is strange, and you have the advantage since you know what you are doing and your oponent doesn't.
Pretty sick guide anyway, very good work.
Thanks for sharing ^^ Did you try Infestors though? Maybe with Corruptors and/or Hydras? and maybe burn minerals on lings to kill his bases/SCVs?
you always describe such weird situation that will occur more seldom than a yamato cannon will be fired on a marine (but you'll probably say it can happen...) if you build medivacs why can't he build warp prisms?.. but what ever if you want to beat protoss with seeker missiles good luck in it. and by the way feedback costs 50 energy not 75 and max. energy on ht is 200. and medivac will most likely not survive the feedback unless... you emp it beforehand lol.
He can build Warp Prisms, but the point is that the ghosts AND HTs will be negated, meaning the Ravens aren't. The whole point of HTs is to stop Ravens. He could drop from WP and feedback Ravens, but in that case, I still don't think WP/HT would counter this strat, you can just fly your Ravens away and try to snipe the WP with Vikings. I said Storm is 75. He can also drop micro I guess, and in that case if he uses feedback which is 50 energy it would be equivalent to using 2 Snipes, but 2 Snipes isn't instant like feedback though it has 1 more range.
What I'm trying to show by describing these weird situations is just that there's so many factors that there's no blatant way to just counter this style, hence why I see it as "viable". Like you could EMP Medivac I guess, or just purposefully burn its energy tho it might not be worth the time. Whether or not it's too weak is a different question (requiring more "skill" than Protoss, or than bio, etc. etc.)
Anyways, we are off track. The point is that Seeker Missile does not suck vs Protoss since it has uses, and also I never said to use SM on HTs. He can bring his HT around in Warp Prisms, sure, but in certain situations on certain maps, his Stalkers won't be mobile enough to be present at a fight/engagement. But you can also kill the Templar Archives or snipe the Robo Facility to stop HTs/WPs. Another simple possible situation is that you killed all his HTs, and kept your Ravens back. Then you bring them forward and either he has no HTs ready or you can't cus you killed the Templar Archives.
On November 24 2011 18:04 Eviscerador wrote: This works vs zerg also, or at least vs ME, because I found one terran in low diamond who just did this build, and it was like:
Me: "Oh, fortress on the natural, it is fine, third and mutas" Me: "WTF!!! 4 ports with techlab?? 2 mins later: LOL; mass raven, this guy is such noob... (zounds of turrets and wall in prevent me to enter their base with mutas) 4 minutes later: one misclick and my muta ball dissapear because of HSM + lings and ultras got raped by shees and turrets. Oh wait...
Of course this build works mostly because it is strange, and you have the advantage since you know what you are doing and your oponent doesn't.
Pretty sick guide anyway, very good work.
Thanks for sharing ^^ Did you try Infestors though? Maybe with Corruptors and/or Hydras? and maybe burn minerals on lings to kill his bases/SCVs?
After loosing my mutas to ravens i tried to make a counter attack with ultras and lings, but nice sim city and 2 PF per expansion cut the lings down and the ultras got focused later by shees.
Infestors probably work but one fungal you miss your infestors are dead to HSM (or gosu micro)
Corruptors worked for a while as a deterrent , but he kept harassing my expas with ravens and turrets so I eventually run out of money.
Against zerg I think if scouted and read, it is counterable with ease thanks to corruptors, since they don't tend to stack, are bigger than mutas and pretty cheap. Also some good fungals will shut down the raven count.
It doesn't follow the guide, especially the opening (I'm going for a kind of specific pdd/banshee timing, although I haven't "found" it yet) I'm also starting to think that something like a split between two-thirds air and one third-ground army is better than pure air. The game does follow some of the typical things you see in mass air vs protoss games though, like terran having lower supply, but still winning engagements, and mass expanding/basetrading (though not efficiently enough, I don't think)
There were several points in the game where I had a significant advantage, but I wasn't able to do anything with it. By the lategame I had killed something like 80 workers to his 50. I even got off a pretty sweet nuke... but by the end of it I couldn't close the game out and I just got whittled down. What went wrong? One thing I'm thinking I could've done is bunker/pf pushed his gold expo while harassing his main or something, just because it's kind of hard to maintain a position with pure air. But I don't think I have the apm for that.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much.
Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases.
I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
Most toss are prolly too used to squashing the T's land army with AOE and can't accept defeat. Just make sure he doesn't have a base elsewhere, make backup production facilities and still remember to macro/micro. About finishing it quickly... it's really up to the toss to give up sigh.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much.
Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases.
I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else.
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage (7 base vs 3 base) that I just wanted to make sure to prevent the P from reaching a 200/200 deathball with Stargate units. Which is really the only thing I fear from P with this playstyle.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air.
I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts? I have tried lategame Reapers with some success, just because I get sooo much gas with this build. They're either hit or miss depending upon the opponent's multitasking. Just a single round of warpin can defend because the Reapers won't have any infantry upgrades. However I have gotten lucky a couple times with an 8 pack of Reapers in the back, Banshee+Viking attack at the front. The Reapers are cheap on supply, which is really nice in the lategame.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
I noticed a number of times that you could've easily sniped his air tech, because it was in the corner of his base. You could probably have unpowered it at the very least.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
no, you missed it by way more than a few minutes. It was getting closed to being mined out. You didn't spot it until you by chance flew over it with your vikings really late in the game. Yes, it's a no duh comment, but you were wondering why the game stretched on for so long. And since you were aiming to starve him out, you should've had your barracks floating over that expo or a bunker there or something.
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage I just wanted to make sure I never let the P reach a critical mass of 200/200 deathball. Which I think is the only thing that kill TvP air lategame.
You overestimated your lead then - it wasn't that substantial until much later in the game.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
You weren't able to trade with his power-units anyway, since you were only attacking ground. Banshees are exponentially more powerful by each one you manage to keep alive. It's way more important to keep his econ and tech down, than to prevent him from massing units with that tech/econ. If you're doing econ damage, he won't be able to mass units effectively.
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air. And unfortunately Terran air has no AE options of its own. I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts?
ravens have really good aoe, man.. and ghosts are probably very good too, I've only recently started messing around with them in combination with air units.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
I really don't know - I'm generally pretty good at scouting expos
I would've gotten a lot more ravens for sure, but I don't think I've been able to win vs any protoss that has reacted "properly" to this build anyway (getting air/blink stalkers and then HT/archon). It's one of the reasons why I think the build is eventually not going to work out - it's not cost effective enough against the correct protoss response. Your opponent didn't even know that phoenix are really good vs this build. Also, like the op says, you have to react to protoss air, and that probably means adding on more barracks units. You could probably have steamrolled way earlier if you had 40 stimmed and upgraded marines with a push - in fact, that might be the true strength of this build. If you force the protoss to get air after having limited his economy for a long while, there will be no/very little ground aoe to prevent the marines from ripping through his army.
edit: I noticed you said you get so much gas with this build. You must be doing something wrong, because gas is entirely the limiting factor to your production here. You really shouldn't be floating gas to the point where the amount of gas you're getting seems excessive. That's a big, flashing, bright red warning sign that you're doing something wrong - like not getting upgrades or not adding on enough production facilities.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
I noticed a number of times that you could've easily sniped his air tech, because it was in the corner of his base. You could probably have unpowered it at the very least.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
no, you missed it by way more than a few minutes. It was getting closed to being mined out. You didn't spot it until you by chance flew over it with your vikings really late in the game. Yes, it's a no duh comment, but you were wondering why the game stretched on for so long. And since you were aiming to starve him out, you should've had your barracks floating over that expo or a bunker there or something.
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage I just wanted to make sure I never let the P reach a critical mass of 200/200 deathball. Which I think is the only thing that kill TvP air lategame.
You overestimated your lead then - it wasn't that substantial until much later in the game.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
You weren't able to trade with his power-units anyway, since you were only attacking ground. Banshees are exponentially more powerful by each one you manage to keep alive. It's way more important to keep his econ and tech down, than to prevent him from massing units with that tech/econ. If you're doing econ damage, he won't be able to mass units effectively.
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air. And unfortunately Terran air has no AE options of its own. I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts?
ravens have really good aoe, man.. and ghosts are probably very good too, I've only recently started messing around with them in combination with air units.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
I really don't know - I'm generally pretty good at scouting expos
I would've gotten a lot more ravens for sure, but I don't think I've been able to win vs any protoss that has reacted "properly" to this build anyway (getting air/blink stalkers and then HT/archon). It's one of the reasons why I think the build is eventually not going to work out - it's not cost effective enough against the correct protoss response. Your opponent didn't even know that phoenix are really good vs this build. Also, like the op says, you have to react to protoss air, and that probably means adding on more barracks units. You could probably have steamrolled way earlier if you had 40 stimmed and upgraded marines with a push - in fact, that might be the true strength of this build. If you force the protoss to get air after having limited his economy for a long while, there will be no/very little ground aoe to prevent the marines from ripping through his army.
edit: I noticed you said you get so much gas with this build. You must be doing something wrong, because gas is entirely the limiting factor to your production here. You really shouldn't be floating gas to the point where the amount of gas you're getting seems excessive. That's a big, flashing, bright red warning sign that you're doing something wrong - like not getting upgrades or not adding on enough production facilities.
Nice feedback, thanks. One thing I'd ask is, why Ravens? I figured both PDD and HSM would be worthless against Carrier/Blink Stalker. Especially because he did have Templar tech. I can see Ravens being good vs pure Gateway/Robo compositions but I have a tough time seeing it vs Templar/Stargate.
I didn't think about tech switching into Marines, thats an interesting idea. Do you have a replay where thats worked? I just worry that they won't be very effective without substantial upgrades. Yes it would've been wonderful to have upgraded Marines with my first push, but that would delay my expo and cut into my Banshee count. My opponent went Robo before Stargate so it wasn't immediately obvious that air was coming.
I don't think floating gas is a big deal with this build. It was only the end I was floating 2k gas while being broke on minerals, which is very reasonable on a 7 base economy and all upgrades. I'm still trying to figure out the proper number of SCVs to use with this build. Because its so gas intensive its a good idea to flush mineral workers for supply, but if I overshoot I end up with too much gas.
On November 26 2011 06:39 RoboBob wrote: Nice feedback, thanks. One thing I'd ask is, why Ravens? I figured both PDD and HSM would be worthless against Carrier/Blink Stalker. Especially because he did have Templar tech. I can see Ravens being good vs pure Gateway/Robo compositions but I have a tough time seeing it vs Templar/Stargate.
Well, I have a replay in this thread where I sniped a mothership with Seeker missiles, so it's a pretty good spell. Especially since you're doing damage to the units beneath the mothership as well. PDD is always good against stalkers, so you use PDD when you've pulled the stalkers away from his slower units.
I didn't think about tech switching into Marines, thats an interesting idea. Do you have a replay where thats worked?
No, and I'm not really an authority on this build anyway.. but it's just a notion. Marines are great.
I just worry that they won't be very effective without substantial upgrades. Yes it would've been wonderful to have upgraded Marines with my first push, but that would delay my expo and cut into my Banshee count.
even the dps from unupgraded marines is pretty substantial.. but you already have an ebay, so getting at least +attack shouldn't be that hard. Against air protoss, you should probably make some turrets in forward positions as well, just so you have a safe place to run your banshees if there phoenix out.
I don't think floating gas is a big deal with this build. It was only the end I was floating 2k gas while being broke on minerals, which is very reasonable on a 7 base economy and all upgrades. I'm still trying to figure out the proper number of SCVs to use with this build. Because its so gas intensive its a good idea to flush mineral workers for supply, but if I overshoot I end up with too much gas.
I don't think you or me are at the level where we should be worrying about worker supply, and should be making workers constantly until max regardless. I guess if you find yourself in a situation with a gigantic lead, it's fine to start trading workers for fighting units.
It doesn't follow the guide, especially the opening (I'm going for a kind of specific pdd/banshee timing, although I haven't "found" it yet) I'm also starting to think that something like a split between two-thirds air and one third-ground army is better than pure air. The game does follow some of the typical things you see in mass air vs protoss games though, like terran having lower supply, but still winning engagements, and mass expanding/basetrading (though not efficiently enough, I don't think)
There were several points in the game where I had a significant advantage, but I wasn't able to do anything with it. By the lategame I had killed something like 80 workers to his 50. I even got off a pretty sweet nuke... but by the end of it I couldn't close the game out and I just got whittled down. What went wrong? One thing I'm thinking I could've done is bunker/pf pushed his gold expo while harassing his main or something, just because it's kind of hard to maintain a position with pure air. But I don't think I have the apm for that.
What league are you again? Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
There are a couple flaws with your play that are really quite simple to fix.
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
A fourth but once again small thing is that you could turn auto-repair on your workers. A couple of times he attacked your PFs (the ones on the side of the map), and 1 time none of your SCVs were repairing, while another time, only half of them were repairing.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
I hope that'll help, if you kept these in mind you would have definitely won, you were quite ahead at a few parts.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case.
I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice.
Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem.
Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
Most toss are prolly too used to squashing the T's land army with AOE and can't accept defeat. Just make sure he doesn't have a base elsewhere, make backup production facilities and still remember to macro/micro. About finishing it quickly... it's really up to the toss to give up sigh.
I agree though, since I guess people are unfamiliar, they don't realize how far behind they are. They probably think that as long as they can defend and eventually macro up a deathball, they can beat what they think is a weaker composition.
On November 26 2011 08:46 Quotidian wrote: you quoted my post, but it feels like you forgot something ;p
Anyways I'll take a look at both of these replays.
Edited ^0^
Also, one time you were building a CC at the right side expansion, it was somewhere in the middle or a bit past mid way of the replay, maybe like 30-40 mins? Anyways you canceled it after he scouted it (phoenix? i forget). You should have just kept making it, because if he wants to kill it he would have to move units over there, and he might not even have the attention/apm to move units there.
But really I prefer just making the CCs inside safer territory then float them out. Early in the game you took 3 bases though and planted the CCs directly there, I think that was fine since you took 3 at a time, but later on you were only taking 1 or 2 at a time, usually just 1.
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp
haha yeah, and with +3/+3 and you killing their forges, their DPS is super super crazy
On November 26 2011 17:51 MaverickSC wrote: Excellent and well written guide. These are the kinds of threads we need on TL instead of "Split vs making worker" and insignificant things like that
Hah, thanks ^^
I've been hearing a lot about that split vs making worker thing in different kinds of threads recently, lol
Really want to say THANKS Yoshi, this build really helped my TvP to be somewhat decent again. Still, i also lose from time to time (but most due to mistakes from myself). Only had 2 Toss players so far pretty much hard countering my build (one went fast Starport and caught my Banshee of guard with Phoenix (bad scouting from me though), another one sneaked in an expo (i didn't noticed that till he had an abnormal high amount of Stalkers ^^).
Best counter seems to be Phoenix (kill first Banshee - get Robo n stuff after) or sneak in a Pylon / Prism. Later on i only lost due to dumb micro / unit clumping (hi there Storm). Thanks again Yoshi - pretty nice write up Now i just need a decent TvZ opening once again (2 Rax doesn't seems to work anymore and i somewhat don't like the Hellion opening (be it with or without gas first)).
Anyways I'll have to say, you had some pretty good multitasking/harass considering your APM wasn't that high (60-70 most of the game, I think). Looks like you've been playing this style a lot? xD You were really quite close to winning, you must have felt really bad that you didn't
Thanks! I've been either one base all-ining or playing mech or doing some mass banshee thing without ravens/vikings... one basing seemed to work the best ;p
1) You gave him too much map control.
Do you remember how he killed quite a lot of your bases, even though you were still ahead? That's because your air fleet was at home, turtling, instead of camping one of his bases. By the time he reached one of your bases and started attacking it, you would still be at home, and only then would you move out to counter attack. It should be the other way. For example a couple times early in the game, you went into his main and harassed, but then you moved back to your nat. Instead you could have sat in the air space south of his main, on the right side of the map.
Good point. I guess if I was really awesome, I'd send the damaged banshees back for repair, or send a few scvs forward, and kept threatening him.
2) You engaged too much.
A lot of times you just fought head on at his army. You won quite a lot of them, but that severely hindered your ability to harass. This problem stems from the first problem. If you had camped him more, you wouldn't need to, or feel the need to, engage as much in defense.
I noticed at the times where I killed his main army and his gold base, that I split my banshees off and started hitting his other expo. I think if I just drilled into his natural and camped there and kept trading/reinforcing, my army would've snowballed and I would've won. Most of the head-on fights ended up with me way ahead, I shouldn't have been so anxious about his 3rd. Simply putting some marines on the highground behind the minerals would've dealt with that problem anyway. I guess it's hard to know when to focus on harass, and when to straight up try and kill him.
A third problem was simply you didn't have enough AA a lot of the time, so 3 or 4 times, you lost half your banshees while you were trying to kill his buildings/econ. You still killed quite a lot before he drove them away, but against a better opponent they should have more observers, so your Banshees were a bit lucky that you at least kept half of them alive from his Phoenixes.
That's the splitting the banshees away from the rest of the army problem again. A lot of the time I had vikings and marines to deal with the phoenixes, they were just somewhere else for some stupid reason. I think a thing I learned from that game is that after a certain point, you have to keep your anti air with your banshees. And land vikings more when fighting straight up against stalkers - the stalker Ai will probably target the banshees anyway.
You can also cut down the turrets at your gold, I think. But that's not too important.
The turrets were a response to his phoenixes.. in my opinion it was the correct move, because it allowed me a place mid-map where I could fall back with the air army. He very rarely pushed down there after a certain point, so as a deterrent it seemed to work.
I actually didn't even consider the marine harass thing lol.
Well the thing about the turrets is, if you're camping him properly, you don't need to worry about the defense. Unlike mech, your safety is simply sitting over space, but mech can't do that, so they need a grounded position. Unless you mean you didn't have enough Vikings, or didn't want to risk not having enough.
As for not knowing when to kill him, I don't think it's a good idea to worry too much about that, just like with any style. It's better to just sit back, take more bases, etc. So I would say, definitely just harass. Unless you know you killed his main army (though again that situation shouldn't even occur, ideally you want to base race so just get used to that), I would just keep harassing. Well even if you did kill his main army he can warp in units wherever, but I guess you can go and kill his gates/stargates... or even just the cyber lol.
On November 26 2011 13:48 JMC4 wrote: Great write up. Very well written
Thank you ^^
Yoshi......... BC's would be a great trasition for late game terran since any viking upgrades would carry over.. also to yamoto the collusus and immortals and archons, also BC's are fantastic at supporting a bioball
Of course, I have mentioned that in the guide a couple times.
i know, I've just took some time to think about it....... and wow.......... so much potental BC's arn't useless they just, like every terran unit can support/need support in a terran unit comp
haha yeah, and with +3/+3 and you killing their forges, their DPS is super super crazy
On November 26 2011 17:51 MaverickSC wrote: Excellent and well written guide. These are the kinds of threads we need on TL instead of "Split vs making worker" and insignificant things like that
Hah, thanks ^^
I've been hearing a lot about that split vs making worker thing in different kinds of threads recently, lol
also VS toss alot of ravens(for PDD, AT, and HSM) mixed in with the BC's and banshees would be devastating....... combined with ghosts with some siege tanks/marauders...... late game protoss bitch smack
On November 27 2011 04:27 Fealthas wrote: Wow amazing guide. This will certainly make my pvt more enjoyable.
Haha, I'm going to assume you didn't say PvT instead of TvP by accident, but then I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about having to play against what many say is an annoying style, or you're happy to not have to play against MMMVG all the time? xD
I love this strat at the moment, so <3 <3 <3, but any idea what to do vs the blink stalker with obs all in? because even if I scout it I just don't have the units out to defend it. playing around mid masters level. Any suggestions?
Tried this a while ago, got my ass served by an amoving colossus ball.
However recently I have grown really frustrated by my utter incapability of using ghosts properly and dying miserably as a result in most of my TvP-s right after toss gets both storms and colossus.
So... I revisited this build and while I haven't played vs stellar opposition (low-to-mid diamond EU) I'm not stellar myself either, so this is definitely viable on my level.
Some points:
- It's extremely fun. - Works great because tosses start thinking 1-1-1 (I usually build a reactor on my barracks so I can man more bunkers at expansions) - It's really really fun. - The rage u get is priceless... - 2 vikings with your army just devastates observers, u dont even need to micro as there's nothing to shoot at for them most of the time. - Super great fun build. - you can recklessly expand all over the place as u have excess minerals --> really important to have 2 production facilities at each of your bases - I upgrade building range ASAP, I feel a lot safer and it helps immensely. - I also surround the PFs with depots and starports.
Might play around a bit more with this on ladder, thanks for sharing this guide, man!!
PS Did I mention I have fun again in TvP???
I'm currently 3-1 with this build, I usually start off with a cloak banshee rush into pf expo and bunkering that up. Obviously not super fast rush as I add the reactor onto the rax. I believe this keeps you safer in the beginning and is great against VRs and those kind of things. What are your thoughts?
On November 29 2011 04:47 GzStrom wrote: I love this strat at the moment, so <3 <3 <3, but any idea what to do vs the blink stalker with obs all in? because even if I scout it I just don't have the units out to defend it. playing around mid masters level. Any suggestions?
Sorry I think the build I have will just lose to that =/ I'm not sure of the timings though, is it possible to have your natural set up by then? (at least PF ready?). Perhaps then you can get a 1 viking 1 raven 1 banshee out somehow, and go base trade. IDK though
On November 29 2011 06:04 OlDan wrote: Hey Yoshi,
Tried this a while ago, got my ass served by an amoving colossus ball.
However recently I have grown really frustrated by my utter incapability of using ghosts properly and dying miserably as a result in most of my TvP-s right after toss gets both storms and colossus.
So... I revisited this build and while I haven't played vs stellar opposition (low-to-mid diamond EU) I'm not stellar myself either, so this is definitely viable on my level.
Some points:
- It's extremely fun. - Works great because tosses start thinking 1-1-1 (I usually build a reactor on my barracks so I can man more bunkers at expansions) - It's really really fun. - The rage u get is priceless... - 2 vikings with your army just devastates observers, u dont even need to micro as there's nothing to shoot at for them most of the time. - Super great fun build. - you can recklessly expand all over the place as u have excess minerals --> really important to have 2 production facilities at each of your bases - I upgrade building range ASAP, I feel a lot safer and it helps immensely. - I also surround the PFs with depots and starports.
Might play around a bit more with this on ladder, thanks for sharing this guide, man!!
PS Did I mention I have fun again in TvP???
I'm currently 3-1 with this build, I usually start off with a cloak banshee rush into pf expo and bunkering that up. Obviously not super fast rush as I add the reactor onto the rax. I believe this keeps you safer in the beginning and is great against VRs and those kind of things. What are your thoughts?
Yes, you could do a reactor into delayed cloak banshee I suppose. I'm not sure if it's worth it (depends what server, etc., the frequency of the all-in compared to the price of having to make a reactor). I think ideally you would do some kind of 1 rax expand and then transition into air play so that you don't just die to all-ins like my build does.
Also, I'm glad you are having fun!
I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently.
This is so much fun. TvP is actually fun again! I've only lost once so far, all the rest have been blowouts. That one loss was on XNC, and he scouted it early and responded well with phoenixes and kind of fast upgrades. My ups were 0/0 and my micro was atrocious, being the second time I ever used the build. I like that there's lots to practice in terms of micro, spells, transitions, upgrades, etc. After that loss I can pinpoint so many opportunities where I could have done better, contrasting greatly with playing standard where I'll be way up in econ and still lose every time in a hopeless engagement. Even the losses are more fun with this build!
I would love to see some more replays, particularly against fast phoenixes and mass cannons defending bases.
I wonder if there are some ways to re-tool the opening to make it less obvious, especially as more Protoss become more familiar. I've also found that there are a few strong timings that seem very difficult to hold off for the Protoss, but I bet you know some stronger ones. I don't recall a mention of any in the OP, but are there some that you like to shoot for?
Hm as for timings idk any, I guess in the literal sense the 1 timing that is helpful is 1-2 banshee (depending on positioning, and if they're still alive) with the first viking/raven. It will surely surprise your opponent once his obs gets sniped ^^ and not much he can do once your PDD is ready to use.
Aside from that, no i don't know any aggressive timings you can do
Yep I'm going to probably replace most replays or at least just spoiler all the old ones once i get better ones. I haven't been able to play much recently cus of college apps >.<
And yeah it's a bit obvious if they're sharp (or have encountered the build/style before) once they realize there are no marines and there is no reactor on the barracks, and no tech lab on the Factory. But about stopping them figuring out what you're doing, I thought I had this part in the guide but it was only a response/post
Actually I just realized. If he's going 1 gate expand, then his first observer should be out at around 7:00. But he can't go out to scout your base with it since you'll have cloak ready to harass at 7:30. If he is smart/safe and makes 2 observers, then he'll be OK at home but still lose some probes due to hitting both Protoss' base with only 1 observer at home. If he moves out his first observer to scout after the 2nd one finishes building, it'll arrive at about 8:00. So it is not until 8:00 that he will find out you have 2 Starports. If he puts down 2 Stargates, they'll finish at about 9:00. So actually this is quite late in the game already, and the situation I described earlier isn't realistic since 9:00 still allows your banshees to harass and for you to get your expansion out at the same time, meaning the economic situation will still be about the same (you would be several workers behind, but should have killed some during harass). So perhaps if you turtle up and build Ravens to stock up on energy, you can get a third up really quick to take advantage of the Phoenixes instead of making Vikings (use turrets/repair to keep ravens alive). And if that somehow won't work you'll have lots of time to catch up in viking count.
If you start cloak before Banshee, they'll actually finish at about same time once Banshee arrives (i've realized now that almost every GSL banshee opener does this). If his observer is in your base, he won't have both of his bases covered. So if, either with his first or second observers, goes to try to scout you, it will leave his base vulnerable. Perhaps if you're really gosu you can keep an eye on the blur of the observers and the Robo that's constructing them to see how many observers are out and/or if he's moving one out to scout your base, in which case you can try to guess its path and kill it with the raven/viking so he can't see your production buildings or bases, but that would take some really pro attention and a good player should be able to recognize it's an air strat.
So he can't safely scout you until 8:00, and that's not even that safe since he has to bounce the observer back and forth. I think for this 8:00 is late enough for him to not be able to punish you.
The only problem that remains is if he does an all-in early game. Perhaps if you scout there's no expansion (or etc.) at 4:20-30, you can, instead of risking being all-in'd or having to spend a Scan on his main, you can instead add a reactor your barracks for marines and expand. So 1-1-1 expand basically. Maybe even with Siege Tanks. I'll have to check some of MVP's 2 base builds where he expands with marine/tank (and banshee?) and pushes on 2 base, he used variations against MC in MLG for example, and also Oz in the AoL tourny. From there you can add 3 more starports I guess, and maybe don't need a PF but can make an OC cus of the siege tank + bunkers + higher marine count.
Great build, a lot of times in TvP I never have felt not at the mercy of the protoss player, but this build is amazing, it honestly just completely undermines the general style of sc2 of "Okay I have my blob now, time to blob vs blob and drop AOE everywhere". I haven't tried it on ladder yet since I am still playing with it a bit but in practice games it has devastated. This just functions so well in that most protoss players will go into zealots with charge heavily even on the smallest amount of scouting information. All of which a banshee and viking can deny with giving away little to nothing of the build. Well done pure air build, I've seen others but they weren't as good as this one. Thank you for this.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case.
I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice.
Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem.
Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg
Haha, that's awesome. I hope your friend gave you crap for making this thread =)
After running through another 7-8 TvPs with this playstyle, I've come to conclusion that the main thing that delays the GG are taking the faraway 3rd+4th. I really like your explanation in the OP why faraway expos are good with this build.
But the thing is, I do so much harassing with this build that the P usually forgets to scout those locations! Which makes them think I'm on 2-3 bases of income+infrastructure when I'm really on 4-5. So its easy for them to think that if they just turtle then I'll starve first because of Mules.
By placing my 3rd+4th in their "natural" locations, I've shaved a good 5-7 minutes off my average win-time =) When they see the 4th+double armory going up, they'll usually GG.
I'm sure that when my opponents get better at scouting expos, I'll probably go back to taking the faraway ones. But at least for me in high diamond, the annoyance outweighs the benefits.
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
haha, what a small world, that is my friend. He complained to me about mass air, but wow what a coincidence that it was you ^0^. Actually I'm surprised, he knows that I do this build and all that and he knows about how many bases you get, so I guess he was just dragging anyways just in case.
I think one problem is that you can't really safely end the game, just like mech. If you were playing vs better opponents they would surely know when they have lost, but I guess at even masters and lower, they just take a lot longer to GG. Just keep in mind that if you truly want to improve, you can still work on things even if you're already "won" a game. Challenging yourself to push your multitasking, macro, etc., etc. will still give you good practice.
Anyways for the sub-optimal option but sometimes desired option of killing him, I think you just made too many Banshees. You had a lot more econ so it makes sense you were aggressively attacking him to try to end him, keeping his numbers low. But you kept ending up with a lot of banshees and not enough Vikings. Really I think you just needed more vikings, and a couple Ravens would have helped with the PDD. Each time he had some air units left (especially Carriers) which, of course, get stronger exponentially the more he has. You could have also just got some BCs with Yamato, you had like 100 minerals and 1500 gas late game at some point, like 30 mins roughly? So gas wasn't a problem.
Aside from that, I think you just have to accept that, at least on ladder, it'll take a while to get a gg
Haha, that's awesome. I hope your friend gave you crap for making this thread =)
After running through another 7-8 TvPs with this playstyle, I've come to conclusion that the main thing that delays the GG are taking the faraway 3rd+4th. I really like your explanation in the OP why faraway expos are good with this build.
But the thing is, I do so much harassing with this build that the P usually forgets to scout those locations! Which makes them think I'm on 2-3 bases of income+infrastructure when I'm really on 4-5. So its easy for them to think that if they just turtle then I'll starve first because of Mules.
By placing my 3rd+4th in their "natural" locations, I've shaved a good 5-7 minutes off my average win-time =) When they see the 4th+double armory going up, they'll usually GG.
I'm sure that when my opponents get better at scouting expos, I'll probably go back to taking the faraway ones. But at least for me in high diamond, the annoyance outweighs the benefits.
Haha, oh that is a good idea. I used to think about just telling my opponent "btw i have 8 bases" haha but I try to stay away from using communication "to win". There's still a small small risk obviously but it's probably worth it if you just want to get on with the next game without having to surrender manually and lose points/MMR ^_^
I wouldn't put my third there but if i'm up 2 bases i guess you can start doing that. Depends on how much dmg u've done though ofc
And yea he complained to me that mass banshees (or did he say air) was too good T_T lol
Oh yeah, and I gotta say that my favorite thing about this build is how it destroys every build that involves Sentries. I used to sigh whenever I saw something like 4 Gate+Warp Prism, but now I cackle.
Now I actually clear a space for them to drop because I *want* them do it. Nobody brings an Obs with their Warp Prism because the Obs are too slow to keep up =) It's easy as pie to Bancheese the drop to death.
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
Really annoying strat that I remember losing to Synystyr against prolly 100 times. I honestly don't know of a decent way for protoss to stop this since HTs get raped, Phoenix get molested, and my buildings can't fly.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote: Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote: Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote: Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot).
The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote: Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot).
The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
True, but an alternative strategy is to build a bunker, and not waste mining time, resources, and defender's advantage in flying to the low-ground.
On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote: Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.
Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs.
He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that.
A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time.
2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes.
3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak.
4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around.
5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce.
6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote: Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.
Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs.
He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that.
A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time.
2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes.
3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak.
4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around.
5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce.
6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
Good analysis, thanks haha
As for in base 2 gate proxy, another way to counter it (depends on map and position of gates) you can lift your rax and start walling off the 2 gates with ebays or bunkers or a 2nd rax or a combination so the zealots are trapped inside.
On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote: Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional).
You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it.
Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time.
6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot).
The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
...he's on top of the ramp. You're on the bottom. You're in the choke. He has the ENTIRE surface area. I don't think you can get 3 scvs to repair the depot.
On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote: Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.
Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs.
He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that.
A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time.
2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes.
3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak.
4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around.
5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce.
6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
Thanks.
I'll be sure to review all of this a couple of times. Question though; why not wait for the 2nd Banshee before harass if cloak finishes right when the 2nd one pops out?
On December 02 2011 07:34 Zergrusher wrote: this guide is turning out amazing
This guide IS amazing! Always remember to not attack into him if he's attacking you(well you can if your heavily outnumbering him). Just go and kill his bases instead. Also, if he's going early phoenix, be greedy with taking bases!
i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote: Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me?
I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction.
Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.
Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs.
He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that.
A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time.
2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes.
3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak.
4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around.
5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce.
6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
Thanks.
I'll be sure to review all of this a couple of times. Question though; why not wait for the 2nd Banshee before harass if cloak finishes right when the 2nd one pops out?
There's a couple reasons.
1. 95% of Protoss will go Robo->Obs after seeing a 13 gas from us, so the Cloak is not going to very useful on offense. He's gonna have an Obs there. Cloak is primarily a defensive weapon in TvP. You won't be able to find and kill all the Obs hiding inside his base. But you *can* find and kill the 1-2 Obs he sends with his army. And even if he doesn't have an Obs in his base, there's really no reason to wait for Banshee#2, because Banshee#1 is untouchable anyway.
2. When you attack with the first Banshee, the P doesn't necessarily know that there's a second one coming. If they send just 2-3 Stalkers to deal with Banshee#1, and then Banshee#2 shows up, you get a Stalker kill for free.
3. If the opponent is doing some kind of early gateway pressure, you want Banshee#1 to be in their face to make them consider turning around (or at least warp in units at home instead of inside your base). If they're defending against your Banshee harass, then they're not busting up your ramp. That way, just in case there is any early gateway pressure, Banshee#1 can buy time for Banshee #2 to fly back to base to help with defense.
On December 02 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote: i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
On December 02 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote: i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
ill get some replays asap posted
That sounds really interesting, but suicidal. 1 Rax FE straight into Starport with the first unit being a Raven?
What units would you have to defend against any kind of one base play that circumvents your Bunkers? Stargate, Blink, Warp Prism, Colossi...all of that tech can proxied outside of the P's base so you don't know its coming. You can't tell exactly whats coming on gas+chrono alone. And I don't see how you can afford to scan with that much spending on infrastructure and economy.
That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap.
Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again!
Less bloggy and more relevant:
It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me. Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly.
I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox? The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it.
Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query.
That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap.
Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again!
Less bloggy and more relevant:
It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me. Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly.
I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox? The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it.
Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query.
It works at Korean GM (the composition and general concepts, not necessarily this build order), so yes it does work. Whether or not it's "efficient" to practice TvP with this style is up to debate (is it harder or easier than MMM VG?)
But in the end, it's all subjective, and there's always a bonus to playing styles and using strategies that are less common. It'll ultimately depend upon you.
So if what you are asking is, "is there a counter or something that just makes this not work if the opponent knows how to deal with it?"
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:
On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with.
That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play.
PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times.
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:
On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
no one good does a 6 pool on a regular basis neither
we barely barely ever saw mech in TvZ in the GSL for the longest time until rainbow/yoda/MVP started doing it neither
ur argument is invalid
also im offended that you think pros are so bad that theyd on't know that vikings beat phoenixes
also flame posts do not conform to the strategy forum guidelines neither :<
Yoshi, I found a couple more replays while trolling around gamereplays.org (they're not mine). Plat level, but variation on your build. His general build looks to be roughly barracks, gas, bunker, factory, 2nd gas, armory, defensive thor @ front door, starport, EBay, 2nd starport, PF at natural. Late game, he made cloaked ghosts to protect the PF expansions from HT's in the first replay.
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:
On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with.
That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play.
PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times.
Toss figured out a style that kills bioballs now, and terrans are shaking there heads and what not....
why don't terrans do a 1/1/1 into 2/2/2 and so on............... SOO MANY UNIT COMBINATIONS AND STRATEGIES POSSIBLE ITS AMAZING if terrans can just learn to use bio/mech/sky all at once............ the race with all the variation and abilites and possible options........... and most unit combinations working.................. has issues creating new strategies? (lolwut) This isn't negative I am just really shocked, thats like saying a GDI player doesn't use orcas >_> or a NOD player doesn't use attack bikes
That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap.
Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again!
Less bloggy and more relevant:
It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me. Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly.
I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox? The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it.
Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query.
It works at Korean GM (the composition and general concepts, not necessarily this build order), so yes it does work. Whether or not it's "efficient" to practice TvP with this style is up to debate (is it harder or easier than MMM VG?)
But in the end, it's all subjective, and there's always a bonus to playing styles and using strategies that are less common. It'll ultimately depend upon you.
So if what you are asking is, "is there a counter or something that just makes this not work if the opponent knows how to deal with it?"
Nope!
Thanks for the reply.
Basically what I was asking was if this was a "flavor of the month" type gimmick or if it would actually prove a valuable build to know/understand.
If its working in Korea, its probably viable
The more I play this build the more I am enjoying it. I truly think you have hit onto something beautiful here, but then again I really enjoy Sky Terran, so...I might be biased.
On a side note...planetary fortress expanding is pretty great. Aggressive expanding with those to make it viable is helping not just against protoss but against zerg too...Oh the ideas you have gotten started in my sad, sad little mind!
Thanks again for this guide. You have breathed new hope into my continued terran existense.
Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote: the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:
On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:
On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote: GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with.
That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play.
PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times.
Toss figured out a style that kills bioballs now, and terrans are shaking there heads and what not....
why don't terrans do a 1/1/1 into 2/2/2 and so on............... SOO MANY UNIT COMBINATIONS AND STRATEGIES POSSIBLE ITS AMAZING if terrans can just learn to use bio/mech/sky all at once............ the race with all the variation and abilites and possible options........... and most unit combinations working.................. has issues creating new strategies? (lolwut) This isn't negative I am just really shocked, thats like saying a GDI player doesn't use orcas >_> or a NOD player doesn't use attack bikes
and BTW yoshi I salute soo much for this guide
EG.Puma (the master of the modern 1/1/1, Polt was arguably its creator) has slowly been moving away from 1/1/1 towards 2/2/2 lately so it certainly is possible. The problem is that you really need to end the game before 3 bases because upgrades will just flat out kill you. Lategame standard TvP is already really scary, and having your army spread out over 3 upgrades paths is even more scary.
Honestly I'm not a fan of mixing in bio when going sky. The best thing about sky is that it makes both Forcefields and Zealots irrelevent. Mixing in bio just opens up those old wounds. If I need to mix in one non-sky unit into my build, then its Hellions. They really help prevent to Zealot/Immo hit squads from sniping expos and retreating into newly warped Stalkers.
The only bio unit I've had success mixing in is Reapers vs pure Cannon/Stargate. 8+ Reaper squads can be really scary vs a gazillion cannons with just one or two Medivacs worth of backup. They can do okay vs 1 round of warpins as long as the P doesn't have any upgrades on his ground either. I'm pretty sure this is the only playstyle I've tried where its actually equally easy to get gas and minerals. So it doesn't matter how much gas Reapers cost, only that they take a long time to build and will be useless vs ground armies.
In theory I've always thought Ghost would be good because both Stargate and Stalkers are so shield heavy. But without a bio ball to hide among, mine get picked off too easy. And Ghost cloak always seems useless vs the tons of Obs they'll be pumping out. Unlike Banshees, Ghosts are poor defensive units because the P can always retreat to regen shields. We don't have concussive to force engages like we do with MMM.
On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
I loved the bm in that game. Your opening was interesting and appeared super safe, and it might be an appropriate alternative for a map like XNC where I tend to have no luck at all. I guess what you give up is the harrassment of the fast cloaked banshee, which can sometimes give auto-wins or do substantial economic damage with the two-pronged harrass. However, I wouldn't call that out as a mistake. Your surprise 4x starport, protected from scouting by a (awesome touch) ring of turrets, had a great shock and awe element. The marines and tanks proved very valuable against the stalker heavy army too.
I really think there is a lot of value in that game for an analytical approach to how different openings can intersect into the midgame goal of mass air. I'm very interested to start experimenting. If an opening lends itself to a 50/50 mixup that requires completely different responses, that would become very frustrating for Protoss.
The tank/marine opening on XNC (which stops tank production after 5 tanks) is completely safe from any protoss all-in. In return, it makes it very difficult to pressure the protoss due to the drawback of tanks. I model my TvP big air play off of ZvP big air play.
In ZvP big air play, the zerg player masses mutas and spines. Spines are cost-effective defenders but can't assert map control, and mutas are strong map control but can't defend in small numbers. Using the map control from mutas, he takes many expansions and eventually overwhelms with a broodlord switch.
In my TvP big air play, I mass bunkers and and make a moderate number of tanks and lean on the unbelievable defensive abilities of the tank. I mass banshees and assert map control, letting me freely take a third and a fourth base without serious pressure from the protoss, letting me safely make a BC switch.
That game was an example of a protoss who effectively disrupted my plans. He got phoenixes out and managed to prevent me from taking a strong macro lead, eventually shutting down my third and sniping my fourth despite taking heavy economic damage himself. The BC transition was desperate but it worked.
On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
I liked the opening and transitioning to thor/bc against primarily phoenix AA was smart. However I didn't like your midgame at all. You threw away tons of banshees, both to blink stalkers and to phoenix because you had 0 protection for them once the marines got cleaned up by zealots and colossus. I checked one of his phoenix, and it had 8 kills on it. Also you lost both your 3rd and 4th to 3 zealots and an immortal. If you are going to turtle that hard, you need PF. One of the great advantages of sky terran is that you don't need minerals that much and can afford to mass expand and use PFs everywhere. Using marines as your AA negates this advantage, makes you vulnerable against his power units (zealots, colossus, sentry), and limits your mobility since you can't leave the marines or else he gets 8 kill phoenixes.
He was able to disrupt your build so much because you had 0 diversity in your air army. A raven or two for PDD, and 2-3 vikings to protect your banshees and snipe observers would have probably won you the game in your first big push that destroyed his gold. He had at most 2 phoenix at once for the entire game, 6-8 in the midgame as he was destroying your economy (because of no PFs) would have annihilated your air control. You weren't really ahead in economy because your opening is so passive, you lost your whole airforce, and all your map presence in your push, allowing him to get back into the game. The all-in at the end worked because he had almost no stalkers, which was a good read on your part. I think he should have expected something like that though after crippling you so bad.
On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
I liked the opening and transitioning to thor/bc against primarily phoenix AA was smart. However I didn't like your midgame at all. You threw away tons of banshees, both to blink stalkers and to phoenix because you had 0 protection for them once the marines got cleaned up by zealots and colossus. I checked one of his phoenix, and it had 8 kills on it. Also you lost both your 3rd and 4th to 3 zealots and an immortal. If you are going to turtle that hard, you need PF. One of the great advantages of sky terran is that you don't need minerals that much and can afford to mass expand and use PFs everywhere. Using marines as your AA negates this advantage, makes you vulnerable against his power units (zealots, colossus, sentry), and limits your mobility since you can't leave the marines or else he gets 8 kill phoenixes.
He was able to disrupt your build so much because you had 0 diversity in your air army. A raven or two for PDD, and 2-3 vikings to protect your banshees and snipe observers would have probably won you the game in your first big push that destroyed his gold. He had at most 2 phoenix at once for the entire game, 6-8 in the midgame as he was destroying your economy (because of no PFs) would have annihilated your air control. You weren't really ahead in economy because your opening is so passive, you lost your whole airforce, and all your map presence in your push, allowing him to get back into the game. The all-in at the end worked because he had almost no stalkers, which was a good read on your part. I think he should have expected something like that though after crippling you so bad.
Oh yes, I definitely should have used PFs for my third and fourth. Dunno why I made them OCs -.- I was banking mins also.
Nobody expects the BC transition though. I really enjoyed how he made like 1 VR which pitifully choked on itself in the fight at his nat.
Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient? I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
On December 06 2011 09:06 Kukaracha wrote: Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient? I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
Going 200/200 Banshees is perfectly fine as long as you get double armory upgrades, and of course sniping his forges will make you insanely strong.
Getting a lot of Ravens is just another style to play, though of course you will have to be careful against HTs. I'd say don't prioritize one over the other, meaning go Banshees unless your macro falters a bit and you have a lot of gas to burn some reason and not many minerals.
A meatier army like Banshees with sniping forges can allow you to just win a straight up fight. With Ravens however, you need support, obviously, and have to be cautious of HTs by playing more of a harass style threatening base race (unless you bring ghosts in medivacs).
Spellcasters get insanely strong lategame, that's mainly why you should consider getting heavy Ravens at some point. If you can keep most of them alive and let them get energy, you will be very strong if you force a base race).
I hope this helps =O
Though of course there is still much to learn, but this is how I feel so far.
This is kinda iffy against templar tech in general, but really really bad against stalker templar with some archons. It may be important to note that against some compositions, you should use ghosts as well. Really really important. This style is kind of broken without at least some EMPs. Feedback and storms punish all air so brutally.
EDIT: I am mixing this style in with a lot of success tho. Diamond here.
On November 09 2011 13:48 Empyrean wrote: Moved to SC2 Strategy.
Never thought I'd say that one.
LoL indeed
i'd have to say that i foresee this build way back when Observest costs were doubled then what it is today, and i insist that protoss lacks of detection...or better....the protoss detection mechanics are totaly broken...
to make an observer u have to sacrifice robo build time....that sucks and robo is a key structure.. !
On December 05 2011 08:20 Blazinghand wrote: Been doing a lot of "big air" style TvP. I don't usually use P Forts, but instead make a small number of siege tanks and continue to make marines, but mostly dump my gas into air units.
Here was a game in which I did a successful BC transition against an opponent who made air units of his own.
On November 09 2011 13:48 Empyrean wrote: Moved to SC2 Strategy.
Never thought I'd say that one.
LoL indeed
i'd have to say that i foresee this build way back when Observest costs were doubled then what it is today, and i insist that protoss lacks of detection...or better....the protoss detection mechanics are totaly broken...
to make an observer u have to sacrifice robo build time....that sucks and robo is a key structure.. !
Yeah lol can you imagine back then observer cost like 2 stalkers in gas? holy shit xD
Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units.
if you do that, might want to um.... emp that medivac?
heheh yeah yeah xD though usually the meds probably shouldnt have that much energy anyways
On December 06 2011 10:58 dUTtrOACh wrote: This is kinda iffy against templar tech in general, but really really bad against stalker templar with some archons. It may be important to note that against some compositions, you should use ghosts as well. Really really important. This style is kind of broken without at least some EMPs. Feedback and storms punish all air so brutally.
EDIT: I am mixing this style in with a lot of success tho. Diamond here.
Not really, I would only say that Stalker/HT with possible some phoenixes is the right way to deal with this style, not a counter. They do this in most of the replays but it is no problem. Even against significantly better opponents (the "Recommended" replays) that composition really wasn't a crippling problem.
Like I said you can just hover over his army to stop him from storming. Though of course you should avoid engagements as much as possible. But if you're going to engage then might as well hover over him to stay safe, better than sitting at the edge of his army where you can get stormed just so that you can run away easier (he'll catch you anyways unless you fly over a cliff or such).
If you have good splitting and focus on micro instead of macro (this strat doesn't produce much, banshees and ravens take 60 seconds to build) then you will be fine. You don't need to sacrifice micro for macro like if you were to play MMM VG and have to keep making a shit ton of new MM constantly.
If you have any replays of things you're having trouble with though, feel free to share
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
I don't recommend it, it is quite against the point of the build, though it might help while you still learn the style and want a more reliable way to start going air, since u won't get your expansions as fast then, meaning you won't get the gas you need. Cus obviously you can't have your marines fly with the rest of the army so it takes away the advantage of being able to focus all ur army in 1 point or camp his bases, etc.
im looking at some ways to get more marines then expand then go air, like a 1 rax expand or 1 reactor rax 111 or something etc.
On November 29 2011 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently.
Looks a lot like Synystr's 4 Port build.
You go for a 2 Rax expand, get both gases at 27, 3 Bunkers at 30. Factory ASAP, Starport, Raven + Cloak. The difference is that he gets Thors, but I haven't had much success with Thors mixed in. I think you can just skip the armory and get siege tanks + siege mode. On the later stages of the game you make 2 PFs in front of your nat and siege there, thus making a base trade virtually impossible!
you shouldn't worry about posting your build and then it becomes useless because they know what your doing. In BW there was a saying that with good build you shouldn't rely on your opponent making a mistake and not scouting it. You should be able to give him vision and still win, not because it's sneaky but because its solid.
On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down.
Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
On December 06 2011 09:06 Kukaracha wrote: Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient? I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
As someone that doesn't care much for seeker missile against Protoss, I can still say that every Raven you get will be insanely valuable. It is significant that the build time is the same as banshees, so if you're floating extra gas Ravens are almost never a bad choice. I usually don't get more than 5 or 6, since they're mostly for pdd, but they swing fights against stalkers heavily in your favor. Phoenixes make pdd a bit worse but it's still important to win the air battle with Vikings. It's kind of dependent on the relative size of your army at a given point in the game, but for example if you already have 10 banshees, 2-3 ravens will always be better than 2-3 more banshees. When I fly into the Protoss main and drop four PDDs over their production facilities, tech, and pylons, it's usually over (unless they lhave an overwhelming Phoenix force that I never scouted or a ton of HTs and I sit in storms). Last night after a base race my 10 0/0 banshees and 1 pdd killed 20 blink stalkers with +1 atk. Then I used an auto turret to snipe an observor, which I should have done during the fight so that cloak worked :/.
I have been finding that unit retention is a very big deal. Always repair damaged units, and try to keep those first two harrassing banshees alive. The build time is too long to be reckless in the early game. I'm especially guilty of losing ravens stupidly, which is no good at all. My success rate has also increased by avoiding confrontation and waiting for the stalkers to get out of position. I lose an expo but they lose their main. One big thing, however, is that they'll take other bases and mass stargates or something, so it's important to have small hit squads looking for those before they get out of hand. By the time you kill their main they might have some far away base all cannoned up and pumping phoenixes and/or carriers. I still overwhelm them with macro but it becomes much harder than it should have been.
I need to remember upgrades more. Not only are upgraded banshees and vikings much better, but it makes a switch to 3/3 battlecruisers pretty unstoppable. Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
Finally, on some maps (Shakuras, Tal'darim Altar, Temple?) you can bunker up the natural early to make it look like a regular expand build, and get a OC. I very much like having extra scans, and it's less obvious so they are less prepared for mass air. The downside has been that in a base trade the blink stalker all-in killed my main AND natural instead of just my main. That shit is getting more popular, but I haven't lost to it yet, fortunately.
Anyway, I'm still loving the build. It definitely takes practice to micro properly and make the right decisions. And XNC still feels impossible for a number of reasons.
On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote: Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down.
Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't?
I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate.
On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote: Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
carrriers are really bad vs battlecruisers
Good to know! I guess all the armor on BCs makes interceptors pretty bad.
edit: Wow, I just ran the numbers from my pocket sc2 database app and if my calculations are correct it takes a carrier 51.56 seconds to kill a BC, compared to 23 seconds vice versa. There are lots of reasons why these numbers won't be perfect in a real game setting, but the difference is staggering nonetheless. I've never seen such a battle happen since nobody builds either capital ship on the matchup, but with this build it could come up. For some reason two Protoss have tried to go carriers against me.
On December 07 2011 01:21 Micromancer wrote: you shouldn't worry about posting your build and then it becomes useless because they know what your doing. In BW there was a saying that with good build you shouldn't rely on your opponent making a mistake and not scouting it. You should be able to give him vision and still win, not because it's sneaky but because its solid.
Yeah that's why I ultimately decided to post my guide ^^
On November 29 2011 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently.
Looks a lot like Synystr's 4 Port build.
You go for a 2 Rax expand, get both gases at 27, 3 Bunkers at 30. Factory ASAP, Starport, Raven + Cloak. The difference is that he gets Thors, but I haven't had much success with Thors mixed in. I think you can just skip the armory and get siege tanks + siege mode. On the later stages of the game you make 2 PFs in front of your nat and siege there, thus making a base trade virtually impossible!
Except with his, doesn't he rely on a 1/1 combatshield+stim timing? I'm thinking more something like what jjakji and MVP did vs Oz, when doing the 2/2/2 marine tank banshee push, except obviously you don't push xD.
On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down.
Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't?
I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate.
On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote: Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
carrriers are really bad vs battlecruisers
Good to know! I guess all the armor on BCs makes interceptors pretty bad.
edit: Wow, I just ran the numbers from my pocket sc2 database app and if my calculations are correct it takes a carrier 51.56 seconds to kill a BC, compared to 23 seconds vice versa. There are lots of reasons why these numbers won't be perfect in a real game setting, but the difference is staggering nonetheless. I've never seen such a battle happen since nobody builds either capital ship on the matchup, but with this build it could come up. For some reason two Protoss have tried to go carriers against me.
Wow BCs quite good eh? xD
What he means I think is when you have enough mineral SCVs, he will stop and make more CCs. Which I think is the right thing to do because i don't think constantly producing SCVs is necessarily faster to get more CCs and therefore gas in most situations. But I'm not sure actually, could use testing xD (would take a bit of time tho =/)
Hi, I just want to say thanks for this amazing guide.
I was struggling in TvP with Bio, going as far as to play less because of this matchup. Then I found this guide.
It took a while to learn it, macro mechanics first, when to expand,(all the time) when to attack, how to scout, how to basetrade. But once I got it down, I've had a HUGE winrate spike against protoss. It was like this: Thanks for teaching me Sky Terran.
I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
On December 08 2011 14:16 Fencer710 wrote: Hi, I just want to say thanks for this amazing guide.
I was struggling in TvP with Bio, going as far as to play less because of this matchup. Then I found this guide.
It took a while to learn it, macro mechanics first, when to expand,(all the time) when to attack, how to scout, how to basetrade. But once I got it down, I've had a HUGE winrate spike against protoss. It was like this: Thanks for teaching me Sky Terran.
Thank you for commenting I'm glad you're enjoying it! (you ARE having fun playing SC2 right? :D)
On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote: I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
Hm well against my build, I think 2 stargate (assuming an expand build from Protoss) phoneix into take lots of bases with cannons and stalkers while rushing to HT works really well. If you get blink quickly the cannons make it hard for terran to do any damage to the nexuses or probes because he will be getting vikings, worrying about the phoenixes. PDD + ravens are a little out of the question since ravens would cost so much gas and you already don't many many banshees.
I'm not 100% if this works, but a couple people have done it to me and I found it really hard since as Terran I can't know really how many Phoenixes he has, so I can easily overproduce Vikings.
If you can show a replay, maybe I can point out some things that you might not have considered before? Especially since if he does some sort of 2 base into air play it can be quite different.
Hello, first of all thanks for the guide imo bio doesn't work anymore and after seeing the mass posts on help me in TvP i guess I'm not the only one Anyways, I'm a top25 master Terran that has been testing your guide for some time but it looks like I still keep on doing something wrong, please analyze my replay and tell me what did go wrong? http://drop.sc/70413 The usual problem is that I get my main-base raped but not this time, I did go for a late game with mass expand, even had 2/1 upgrades compared to 2/2 of his (& he should be ahead); although I built the armories in the wrong place; and I guess it's important to get a factory & fly in somewhere so that I don't lose the ability to build starports? Anyway, thanks in advance
On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote: I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
I think that a turtling toss is the way to go if you don't succeed a 2-base bust. LOTS of cannons at your expansons, leave an HT at each (much like the way HerO defends in PvZ). Banshees have a tendency to stack, so storms can be quite deadly. But still, it's a very strong build for the late game. I usually end up with many PFs, which is a pain for HT-based Protoss to go through. Your best bet is a 1 base or 2 base push. Rushing to blink stalkers is often an autowin, sentry-heavy 4Gate works pretty well, and 3gate immortal is decent. 3gate stargate also does the job but is quite often a cheesy build. It's also very important to get a few cannons early on. They will provide detection, as having just 2 observers will often allow the terran to do lots of damage just by poking in multiple locations at once.
On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote: I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
I think that a turtling toss is the way to go if you don't succeed a 2-base bust. LOTS of cannons at your expansons, leave an HT at each (much like the way HerO defends in PvZ). Banshees have a tendency to stack, so storms can be quite deadly. But still, it's a very strong build for the late game. I usually end up with many PFs, which is a pain for HT-based Protoss to go through. Your best bet is a 1 base or 2 base push. Rushing to blink stalkers is often an autowin, sentry-heavy 4Gate works pretty well, and 3gate immortal is decent. 3gate stargate also does the job but is quite often a cheesy build. It's also very important to get a few cannons early on. They will provide detection, as having just 2 observers will often allow the terran to do lots of damage just by poking in multiple locations at once.
Though the problem with the 4 gate and 3 gate stargate (at least the all-in version of it, like proxy or etc.) is that you will be doing them somewhat blindly, since you won't know for sure if he's just doing 111 expand (or do those both kill 111 expand? if he has enough bunkers he should be fine)
On December 08 2011 19:00 tdt.Baki wrote: Hello, first of all thanks for the guide imo bio doesn't work anymore and after seeing the mass posts on help me in TvP i guess I'm not the only one Anyways, I'm a top25 master Terran that has been testing your guide for some time but it looks like I still keep on doing something wrong, please analyze my replay and tell me what did go wrong? http://drop.sc/70413 The usual problem is that I get my main-base raped but not this time, I did go for a late game with mass expand, even had 2/1 upgrades compared to 2/2 of his (& he should be ahead); although I built the armories in the wrong place; and I guess it's important to get a factory & fly in somewhere so that I don't lose the ability to build starports? Anyway, thanks in advance
On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote: people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down.
Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't?
I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate.
It's been my experience that post 200/200 I never need more than 40 SCVs on minerals. So when I'm on 4 base I'll have an extra 24 SCVs on gas for a total of 64 SCVs. That's enough for 8 Starports worth of constant production of Viking/Banshee + Double Armory. Plus a little extra for a constant CC+Turret. If I lose a ton of SCV,then I just cut the CC+Turret until I get back up to norm. It's so easy to recycle 20 SCVs when I'm on 4 CCs so fast.
I suppose if you get above 4 base then you might want to add on more gas SCVs. That way you could afford more Raven/BC. However by the time I usually get base #5 and 6 up and running the geysers in my main poop out.
For the most part, I think we're always better off with less SCVs so we can get a bigger army. We don't need to worry about 300 food warpgate pushes like we do with Bio, so we don't need such a massive economy. We should be retaining most of our army with mobility+repair anyway.
On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere...
sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes..
viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere...
sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes..
viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
Well lol I just realized workers cannot outrun SM o.o so that is interesting. I guess you could go for that, but I guess ideally you would want to fire it as soon as they pull, so that you are already in or close to 2 range meaning it will hit them no matter what (and so he wouldn't have enough time to split). If he doesn't pull then the turrets will keep killing probes then i guess.
On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere...
sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes..
viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
Well lol I just realized workers cannot outrun SM o.o so that is interesting. I guess you could go for that, but I guess ideally you would want to fire it as soon as they pull, so that you are already in or close to 2 range meaning it will hit them no matter what (and so he wouldn't have enough time to split). If he doesn't pull then the turrets will keep killing probes then i guess.
so there's a challenge for the thread...
give it a go.. i will be...
see if we can get some replays of it.
even if you use the banshee to make them run, position the raven off to the side where they will run to the natural... and bombs away...
I've tried SM mineral lines a few times (in custom games mainly) and it's not really effective, it's better to throw down 4 auto-turrets instead; SM could be effective if he had a really poor saturation or 1-2 minerals left so that he has like 10 probes in one place; I have also tested SM vs PDD; 4 ravens (full energy) & 8 banshees (no cloak) vs 25 stalkers; if one uses 4 SM (+4 turrets for the remaining energy) all T units will die leaving 2-4 stalkers; when you throw down 8 PDD you lose only a few banshees *again I can't recollect the exact numbers since i wasn't doing it to post it here; but when i saw SM posts i thought I'll share what i know* One more note: when i see fast phoenixes in masses; i prefer to get a fast SM then more vikings since SM rapes stacked phoenixes so baaaad :d
Wow....... 12,000 words? I though i found the record holder yesterday, but this....this is the biggest thread i have ever seen! congratulations man, this is amazing work
On December 09 2011 20:44 tdt.Baki wrote: I've tried SM mineral lines a few times (in custom games mainly) and it's not really effective, it's better to throw down 4 auto-turrets instead; SM could be effective if he had a really poor saturation or 1-2 minerals left so that he has like 10 probes in one place; I have also tested SM vs PDD; 4 ravens (full energy) & 8 banshees (no cloak) vs 25 stalkers; if one uses 4 SM (+4 turrets for the remaining energy) all T units will die leaving 2-4 stalkers; when you throw down 8 PDD you lose only a few banshees *again I can't recollect the exact numbers since i wasn't doing it to post it here; but when i saw SM posts i thought I'll share what i know* One more note: when i see fast phoenixes in masses; i prefer to get a fast SM then more vikings since SM rapes stacked phoenixes so baaaad :d
Thanks for the data
On December 09 2011 14:32 jrdn wrote: Just an fyi, workers can outrun SM if they have a head start Unit Speed vs Seeker Missile
Oh yeah, of course ^^
On December 09 2011 14:57 Corvette wrote: This build and its popularity on ladder has made pvt absolutely miserable
Yay! I mean, i'm glad people are trying this out. But sort of not xD
On December 09 2011 20:58 firehand101 wrote: Wow....... 12,000 words? I though i found the record holder yesterday, but this....this is the biggest thread i have ever seen! congratulations man, this is amazing work
On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere...
sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes..
viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
Well lol I just realized workers cannot outrun SM o.o so that is interesting. I guess you could go for that, but I guess ideally you would want to fire it as soon as they pull, so that you are already in or close to 2 range meaning it will hit them no matter what (and so he wouldn't have enough time to split). If he doesn't pull then the turrets will keep killing probes then i guess.
so there's a challenge for the thread...
give it a go.. i will be...
see if we can get some replays of it.
even if you use the banshee to make them run, position the raven off to the side where they will run to the natural... and bombs away...
On December 10 2011 06:53 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to do this after a reaper expand? seems like a pretty logical path to me...
once again i could be wrong
Almost any opening can transition into a big air play. I personally do it off of a 1 rax reactor expo siege rush. You'll see people do it off of a 1 rax FE, or banshee rush -> FE. You could even do something interesting like a 2 rax pressure expo, then stop making bio as you transition to air. Although Yoshi Kirishima's build order is the best-optimized for "I'm not making anything that doesn't come out of a starport", it's possible to transition to a similar midgame from other builds.
I guess the big difference here is whether you're going "pure air", "all gas going air" or something mixed. I've seen players who still dump some minerals into marines and hellions, and do drops and stuff as well, which isn't pure air, but produces the same number of air units, since all the gas is going there. It expands more slowly, of course, since you're making mineral units.
I make 5 tanks, and get siege mode and stimpack and lots of marines when I go for banshee and battlecruiser centric play. I don't play "pure air", but rather, "big air"-- a more hybridized version, which benefits less from things like armory upgrades, and has a smaller and less powerful air fleet, but has ground forces.
i would like to see some early expand variants of this style...
the Yoshi Kirishima is cool... but i would like to see how much economy i can squeeze out before doing it..
i like the MASS air thing.. i think that adding some mech in would probably do quite well.. seeing as if you have big air they are unlikely to want to build immortals/chargelots/colossus... this could be the answer to mech we have all been looking for..
I make 5 tanks, and get siege mode and stimpack and lots of marines when I go for banshee and battlecruiser centric play. I don't play "pure air", but rather, "big air"-- a more hybridized version, which benefits less from things like armory upgrades, and has a smaller and less powerful air fleet, but has ground forces.
On December 10 2011 07:09 GorE_ wrote: i would like to see some early expand variants of this style...
the Yoshi Kirishima is cool... but i would like to see how much economy i can squeeze out before doing it..
i like the MASS air thing.. i think that adding some mech in would probably do quite well.. seeing as if you have big air they are unlikely to want to build immortals/chargelots/colossus... this could be the answer to mech we have all been looking for..
Well, believe it or not, they still make plenty of chargelots against big air just because of spare minerals. Here is my experience with it, using a 1 rax FE and transitioning to 2-3 base marine/tank/banshee...
I make 5 tanks, and get siege mode and stimpack and lots of marines when I go for banshee and battlecruiser centric play. I don't play "pure air", but rather, "big air"-- a more hybridized version, which benefits less from things like armory upgrades, and has a smaller and less powerful air fleet, but has ground forces.
Care to post a replay, sounds quite good...?
Already have, previously in the thread. 2 replays, 2 VoDs to go with them. Low Master NA
If you're not planning on rushing out marines and tanks though, it's probably better to do Yoshi Kirishima's PF expo, just because it can actually hold of pressure pretty handily, and gets banshees quicker.
thanks for that... seems to me like a reactor hellion expand could be a possibility
bit of map control that i noticed you lacked a little at the beginning of that game... if they leave their base... bam 6 hellions into their mineral line...goodbye probes...
On December 10 2011 08:01 GorE_ wrote: thanks for that... seems to me like a reactor hellion expand could be a possibility
bit of map control that i noticed you lacked a little at the beginning of that game... if they leave their base... bam 6 hellions into their mineral line...goodbye probes...
reactor hellion expand, i forgot about opening with something other than marine/bio expand xD
Since hellions can deal with ground well, you can save your gas for air units.
Me/sixjaxMajOr(and we're not even that good compared to some Korean T's, and of course the P's were tried it versus were obviously not Code A/S either, just another thing to note) used to try this a lot back in the day but it doesn't work. Any good protoss with protoss blink micro destroys the banshees and/or makes PDD's useless. Not to mention they'll just get lots and lots of HT's and feedback (or force all your banshees to cloak/uncloak rapidly to drain their energy) and constantly put you on the backfoot.
Versus very very good Protoss' they can see the line of the PDD and thus blink out of it, not to mention vikings are basically useless since they won't make phoenix or VR.
Lots and lots of things you're not taking into consideration is the skillset, it's like saying of course MVP can probably beat 99.99% of the P's in the world with Mech, but vs the best it clearly just won't work for a myriad of reasons. The style by nature is a gamble and also -eV the longer the game goes. Even if you argue 'ghosts' vs the HT's or whatever, you're still praying for a control battle. It's like going pure baneling with drops vs Protoss and hoping you win the FF vs baneling micro.
Oh and it autodies to any 5gate robo pressure followup.
It's a neat thing to do vs weaker player, but the style itself is really weak for a plethora of reasons that I mentioned above. And for people arguing that it just needs to be "worked on", no, mech might have some breathing room to be worked on, but that's because the unit composition of mech is not always relying on surprise/special timings/some luck the way this does.
On December 10 2011 08:53 lastshadow wrote: Me/sixjaxMajOr(and we're not even that good compared to some Korean T's, and of course the P's were tried it versus were obviously not Code A/S either, just another thing to note) used to try this a lot back in the day but it doesn't work. Any good protoss with protoss blink micro destroys the banshees and/or makes PDD's useless. Not to mention they'll just get lots and lots of HT's and feedback (or force all your banshees to cloak/uncloak rapidly to drain their energy) and constantly put you on the backfoot.
Versus very very good Protoss' they can see the line of the PDD and thus blink out of it, not to mention vikings are basically useless since they won't make phoenix or VR.
Lots and lots of things you're not taking into consideration is the skillset, it's like saying of course MVP can probably beat 99.99% of the P's in the world with Mech, but vs the best it clearly just won't work for a myriad of reasons. The style by nature is a gamble and also -eV the longer the game goes. Even if you argue 'ghosts' vs the HT's or whatever, you're still praying for a control battle. It's like going pure baneling with drops vs Protoss and hoping you win the FF vs baneling micro.
Oh and it autodies to any 5gate robo pressure followup.
It's a neat thing to do vs weaker player, but the style itself is really weak for a plethora of reasons that I mentioned above. And for people arguing that it just needs to be "worked on", no, mech might have some breathing room to be worked on, but that's because the unit composition of mech is not always relying on surprise/special timings/some luck the way this does.
Hope this helps ~
Aw, that's sad to hear
Thanks a lot for your input
How about if it's on a weird map like calm before the storm though, where the map is huge and u can take 3 base quickly? Or are bigger maps even worse since he can just warp in anywhere? you can deny pylons too though? Or if we get to see some "air" maps, like semi-island maps or ones with a lot of twisty, tight ground paths and obstructions that make air units very mobile?
started taking my heavy air harass into fortress/factory idea to the ladder - it's obvious how much I owe my success with it so far to playing a lot of mass air tvp.
I've sort of mentally decided to just be kind of a pitbull with energy units around HTs.. it won't work against anyone good, but just ignoring the feedbacks on the banshees and going after the defensive HTs seems to work fine so far. You don't need to get out of there until the rest of the protoss army shows up.
He did a 5gate robo (which lastshadow said would be really good vs this iirc) early push and did good damage. Though i held it i was a little lucky. Then it transitioned into a 30 min game
On December 11 2011 07:18 GorE_ wrote: i like the offensive PFs and your reactor expo build... very cool... i will almost definately be stealing it
Thanks! I think the Shattered Temple game was the better executed version of that opening. It feels pretty safe.. I think you could even build your CC at your natural on some maps (like Shattered or Shakuras) I have trouble vs. 3 gate VR all-ins though, but that is true for pretty much every opening I do. I have no idea how to hold it -_-
I'm starting to reconsider the hellion harass though. It's nice when the protoss player has no idea how to react, or is just really surprised, and you kill almost every worker he has. But most people I encounter now are pretty good at handling it. I'm thinking I squeeze out one hellion inside his base, scout with it - maybe kill one worker, run it to his nat to see if he's expoed and then occupy a watchtower with it. The CC will come 200 minerals sooner if I do that as well.
Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running.
I hope it's ok if I post another replay, even though it's not pure air. The opening/midgame is at least relevant, because I transition into factory/fortress after having gone air for a while. I never completely transition out of air - but ideally I'd want a ton of ravens by the endgame.
Here's the first game I've ever played where I had this weird, tingling feeling that something is up, even before scouting my opponent's tech, leading me to not cut as much gas and expand a little bit later.
The cheesy factory scout also payed off a lot. There's really no reason not to proxy the factory, except that it gives your tech away (somewhat). Unless the protoss is going for a really, really fast VR, there's almost no way they can destroy it.
By the way, I think have a 100% winrate with mass air style after I started switching into fortress+mech/air in the lategame. It's not that many games, but still.. feels nice ^^
The important thing is to not forget tech nor macro during the push; especially tech actually.
Remember that a 4Gate often has no Robo, which means no detection. Your Banshees can do a lot of damage that way. Warp prism play can be defended easily by making a Viking. So get that Starport quick son.
On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote: Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!)
On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote: Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running.
On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote: Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!)
On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote: Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running.
But damn too bad it's not a long game? 3 port off 1 base LOL wtf!!!
anyways thanks ^^
I used to do 3 port banshee on one base vs zerg. Appearantly you can only support 2 starports, but I always ended up with more banshees if I went with 3. Extremely all-in, of course.
On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote: Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!)
On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote: Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running.
But damn too bad it's not a long game? 3 port off 1 base LOL wtf!!!
anyways thanks ^^
I used to do 3 port banshee on one base vs zerg. Appearantly you can only support 2 starports, but I always ended up with more banshees if I went with 3. Extremely all-in, of course.
that's strange but i guess ill have to check out the replay to understand
the only reason i can see why u pick 3 instead of 2 is u delay the starports so that he can't scout u at the normal time or something, and then u throw down an extra starport to "catch up"?
On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg.
Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out.
I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much.
Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases.
I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else.
That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak.
You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P
My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage (7 base vs 3 base) that I just wanted to make sure to prevent the P from reaching a 200/200 deathball with Stargate units. Which is really the only thing I fear from P with this playstyle.
It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos)
Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air.
I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts? I have tried lategame Reapers with some success, just because I get sooo much gas with this build. They're either hit or miss depending upon the opponent's multitasking. Just a single round of warpin can defend because the Reapers won't have any infantry upgrades. However I have gotten lucky a couple times with an 8 pack of Reapers in the back, Banshee+Viking attack at the front. The Reapers are cheap on supply, which is really nice in the lategame.
Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
Always know how much you are trading for how much. If I am secure with my econ with enough map control to be able to react, i would willingly sacrifice equal value of army to kill his tech.
On December 12 2011 23:28 Carrera26 wrote: Yoshi, you hardly ever seem to do any repair on your airforce, even when they are sitting in your base. Is there a specific reasoning behind this?
Yeah, I was watching some of the vods of Yoshi's stream earlier, and I think thats just a consistent hole in his play. Not just with Sky TvP, but all builds all matchups (No offense intended Yoshi, you're still definitely better than me!)
I feel that if we don't have any bio, then we *need* to bring at least a handful of SCVs with our army in order to compensate for the lack of Medivac healing. I think the only matchup where we can really get away going no bio no SCV is TvT, because our opponent is equally as bad at reproducing as us. :p But we should still repair anyway!
I facepalmed sooo many times watching Yoshi lose massive Hellion/Thor/Banshee balls unnecessarily in TvZ. 4-8 SCVs is all we need to keep a 150-200 supply mech army alive vs all the stuff that is good at killing it (which is almost always highly mobile, quick remax stuff like Stalker/Colossi, Muta/Roach, MMM, etc). Repair isn't just for PFs and Bunkers!
Oh yeah, one thing about your stream Yoshi...I hate to say it, but with your current setup its a really really bad idea to play music. Normally I enjoy anime music, but because your sound quality is so low, it all sounds like crap and makes my ears bleed. I'd much rather listen to the high-quality anime music on my own PC. When you get a better setup it might be cool to play music, but for now I think you're better off sticking to just game sounds+mic. The "new unit framerate drag" thing didn't bother me at all, it was just the sound that bugged me really.
Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
On December 12 2011 23:28 Carrera26 wrote: Yoshi, you hardly ever seem to do any repair on your airforce, even when they are sitting in your base. Is there a specific reasoning behind this?
Yeah, I was watching some of the vods of Yoshi's stream earlier, and I think thats just a consistent hole in his play. Not just with Sky TvP, but all builds all matchups (No offense intended Yoshi, you're still definitely better than me!)
I feel that if we don't have any bio, then we *need* to bring at least a handful of SCVs with our army in order to compensate for the lack of Medivac healing. I think the only matchup where we can really get away going no bio no SCV is TvT, because our opponent is equally as bad at reproducing as us. :p But we should still repair anyway!
I facepalmed sooo many times watching Yoshi lose massive Hellion/Thor/Banshee balls unnecessarily in TvZ. 4-8 SCVs is all we need to keep a 150-200 supply mech army alive vs all the stuff that is good at killing it (which is almost always highly mobile, quick remax stuff like Stalker/Colossi, Muta/Roach, MMM, etc). Repair isn't just for PFs and Bunkers!
Oh yeah, one thing about your stream Yoshi...I hate to say it, but with your current setup its a really really bad idea to play music. Normally I enjoy anime music, but because your sound quality is so low, it all sounds like crap and makes my ears bleed. I'd much rather listen to the high-quality anime music on my own PC. When you get a better setup it might be cool to play music, but for now I think you're better off sticking to just game sounds+mic. The "new unit framerate drag" thing didn't bother me at all, it was just the sound that bugged me really.
Yeah I keep forgetting . When I turn on autorepair, my SCVs don't seem to repair them unless they're really close.
Sorry to make you face palm It might have been cus i was lagging really hard though ( I forgot to fix my streaming settings before playing and didn't realize what was wrong ).
And thanks for the feedback lol. I can turn it up, but idk what's the normal... is it supposed to be 256? I thought it was just the 128 or so im doing lol. I can do that. Right now I can still stream up to 500 more kbps, only problem is that my PC isn't good enough, but i don't think increasing audio quality requires much PC power.
Also, what's "framerate drag"? I turned down my fps to 20 because I couldn't figure out what was causing my PC to be slow. I might keep it on 20 fps though, at least to me when I watch it it doesn't bother me. Though obviously the video quality could be clearer . Maybe I should just use a 1280x720 monitor, so that I can run SC2 in that resolution which would save a good amount of PC power (and also stream in that res ofc).
And if I have better audio, that would probably help people hear me as well right? xD
On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote: Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair?
On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote: Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair?
keeping the ghosts and scvs in the medivacs would be pretty cool .. just like people putting ht's and such into warp prisms :o
On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote: Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair?
keeping the ghosts and scvs in the medivacs would be pretty cool .. just like people putting ht's and such into warp prisms :o
kekek yeah
too bad WP can fly much faster and only use minerals though xD
and it's 100/100 vs 150 hp 1 armor
But perhaps it is balanced this way since Ghosts > HT and if medivacs were like WP then idk what protoss would get to counter the Ghosts lol ( so that they can deal with the air ). They could go phoenix stalker but they don't have the HTs to defend with storm and feedback, and phoenix don't really counter terran air
On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote: Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
I think this is a great idea. The only real cost I see is the starport time that is "wasted" on the medivac production. However, it certainly seems well worth it if you remember to repair in between skirmishes. This is especially true early game as banshees can soak a lot of stalker shots and retreat safely (it is easy to time withdrawals due to stalker slow rate of fire).
Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
I finally got a pretty good match of my variation on Sky Terran. I go 1rax reactor FE into Sky Terran, but it seems like this guy has seen the build before and reacts well. Both of us are diamond. Please excuse mistakes in my fundamentals, I'm coming back to the game after a long break and I'm still a bit rusty. This replay contains:
- Deflected harass! - Void rays! - Lots of High Templar! - Banshees! - Storm dodging! - Many dead observers!
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
it abuses the fact that tosses fearing the 1-1-1 so much :D
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
check my stream (http://hu.twitch.tv/breach_hu/), you can find a lot of games with this build in the long (8, 13, 16-hour-long sessions of mine)
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
Hm are you sure? Cus you know when you base trade against Terran, especially against air style, it is really hard to win
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
it abuses the fact that tosses fearing the 1-1-1 so much :D
On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote: Hey there~ I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses. its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.) even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
check my stream (http://hu.twitch.tv/breach_hu/), you can find a lot of games with this build in the long (8, 13, 16-hour-long sessions of mine)
Will do ! :D
And oh yeah great point about 1-1-1. But I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it because (and i'm not sure what kind you do) it's safe to open 1-1-1 with banshees vs Protoss if they fear 1-1-1 all-in because it means they have an early expansion, meaning they can't kill you early on? Or is it because they think you're doing a 1-1-1 all-in and don't realize you're expanding and going mass air?
I actually played around a lot with more Big Air play at HWG's Zerg Christmas Lan Tourney! I'm currently uploading the replays and making battle reports, which I'll share here since it seems appropriate. All I gotta say is HTs op though. It was definitely stalker/HT that gave me the most trouble going big air.
On December 24 2011 07:40 Blazinghand wrote: I actually played around a lot with more Big Air play at HWG's Zerg Christmas Lan Tourney! I'm currently uploading the replays and making battle reports, which I'll share here since it seems appropriate. All I gotta say is HTs op though. It was definitely stalker/HT that gave me the most trouble going big air.
Nice Will be looking forward to it!
Yeah HTs and storm is the hardest to deal with the longer the game goes. I'd say it would help a lot to go into a unit tester with a friend, and just practice splitting air units vs storm for 1 hour. Even 5 minutes could help a lot.
I've been thinking about using air more, especially ravens in early game TvT and TvP. This is an awesome guide! I will try out some of the strategies since I've always been looking for ways to use more air units (my ID )
On January 26 2012 11:10 zhurai wrote: hi, do you have to go 1/1/1 and then expand, or can you go 1rax CC/reaper expand and then go into sky terran... or is that totally unsafe ._.
I think 1 Rax CC into Sky Terran is unsafe. If you're gonna 1 Rax FE, then you need to follow up with an 3-4 extra Rax immediately just to survive a 3-6 Gate+ timing attacks. And if you do that then you might as well go MMM. Going 1 Rax directly into Sky will leave you with too few units to defend any pressure, even with a Planetary at your natural.
1-1-1-expo or 1-1-2-expo is the best way to open into Sky Terran TvP, imo. It's bad to allin with Sky Terran because the more gasses you take, the stronger it gets. But you do need to get all that tech out of the way ASAP. And you need to do at least some free damage with it early, in order to compensate for the delayed expo.
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
On January 26 2012 12:28 Dright wrote: Oh god it's a trend!
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
I wonder how scoutable this is...
My proposed build looks like a 111 build. They won't know it's a 2 port until they scout you with a 2nd or even 3rd observer, because they'll need the first observer to stay home to defend against the Cloak Banshees. Once his observer comes if u hide ur 2nd starport he might not even scout it. He might notice there's no marines though or tanks and feel suspicious. Either way, by the time he figures out you have 2 port, you will be safe so long as you follow the scouting directions I mentioned and adapt properly. By then you will have cloak banshees keeping him at bay and a PF or OC + Bunkers to defend at home.
You can 1 gate FE but it means Terran will be safe with Cloak banshee opening. It will give them a foothold to get into the midgame safetly cus they don't have to worry about an early attack or a counter attack. I suggest you make sure you keep your stalkers in your mineral lines and get observers out ASAP, and try to keep up in expansions + Stalker while teching up to 3/3/3 and/or HT storm and/or observer speed. You can even pump 2 stargate phoenix before all that, it might catch terran off guard and cause him to have to mass vikings without knowing whether you cut your phoenixes or not.
On January 26 2012 12:28 Dright wrote: Oh god it's a trend!
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
I wonder how scoutable this is...
Great Guide Yoshi!
To respond to the bold, aren't phoenixes good against everything he's making but marines and BCs?
Vikings have 125 health and do 10 dps (+1 per upgrade) against Phoenixes. Phoenixes have 180 health and do 9 dps (+1.8 per upgrade) against Vikings. Even the PDD (which you shouldn't have to engage) only adds a 100-point health bump. The real reason early game terran air is so good against protoss is that banshees do so much damage that even if left undetected for a small amount of time, banshees absolutely wreck ground armies. Take the vikings out of the equation with phoenixes, though, and its a different ballgame.
The best part about a phoenix switch here is that phoenixes are so fast that you can use them to keep tabs on what he's building so that you don't get caught unaware that he's been making almost entirely air.
At the moment, the point is a bit moot because nobody really uses phoenixes in PvT - but perhaps with the range upgrade they'll find their way back into the works. Phoenix/Colossus was pretty popular in korea for a time early on in SC2's evolution.
On March 02 2012 02:01 Quotidian wrote: Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff?
Better question: has anyone actually gotten the phoenix range against terran yet? It's not exactly been a popular upgrade to get on the boards yet (though that doesn't mean it isn't good).
To expand on what I said earlier, if you go gate robo expand, your observer should get to their base while their building their second banshee (I think - feel free to correct me if this timing is off, it's based on experience so I don't always look back to see if they got the "fastest possible" banshee). This should give you time to build a stargate and still keep even with his viking numbers because he's comitting early resources to banshees.
On March 02 2012 02:01 Quotidian wrote: Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff?
Better question: has anyone actually gotten the phoenix range against terran yet? It's not exactly been a popular upgrade to get on the boards yet (though that doesn't mean it isn't good).
I've heard some anecdotal stuff here and there that +2 phoenixes are very useful vs terran, yes.
I've been using that style myself for a while now (EU Master). Imo best way to counter it is expand fast, get upgrades and go for HT/Archon tech.
Protoss air is possible too, but tricky because: P needs to commit to full air wich is a difficult decision when he doesn't know for sure that you are commiting to full air too. He cant really transition later because you should be ahead on upgrades. BC are very good against P air. Hunter seeker is awesome too. So I think its the worse way to play against it.
As for the style itself i think its very viable if you get to mid-late game. But i havent found a safe opening yet. Protoss can do so fucking strong pressures while expanded and has so many all ins most of wich just crush that 111 opening. I guess you have to keep making reactored marines, that way you could transition into a 111 all in aswell if you see it working.
As for lategame, you have the mobility advantage, but in straight up fights archons and storm wrecks banshees like the paperplanes they are :/. Have to experiment more with magic boxing and parking my banshees over his army to counter that, but dont think that works too good. As for Ravens, HSM sucks vs protoss ground forces, they are way too big. PDD is still great vs. stalkers though. Just make sure to keep your ravens out of feedback range.
A while ago I played a T on ladder and he went CC first (hidden), so I scouted his late rax and was like wtf is he doing.. I decided to 4gate him and end the game quickly but he had a trillion bunkers. After that he started to pump a trillion banshees and started to mass expand with PFs.. then he started to make alot of vikings and ravens.. I lost horribly, I felt so bad after that loss Not sure what to do against that style tbh
On March 08 2012 06:05 Deadstrider wrote: A while ago I played a T on ladder and he went CC first (hidden), so I scouted his late rax and was like wtf is he doing.. I decided to 4gate him and end the game quickly but he had a trillion bunkers. After that he started to pump a trillion banshees and started to mass expand with PFs.. then he started to make alot of vikings and ravens.. I lost horribly, I felt so bad after that loss Not sure what to do against that style tbh
1 CC and 4+ bunkers? Throw down 2 expansions and tech up to whatever you want. Aren't terrans usually worried about giving you too much space? So use it.
Okay people say BC's suck but everyone needs to remember BC's are a tier3 unit and like other tier3 units such as colossus and ultras they need certain support units to survive. Collosus alone are completely weak and vulnerable to say a group of roach's running up and sniping them so protoss would needs their stalker/sentry army to force field the roachs back; everything has a synergistic effect in this game and ultras need zerglings for cannon fodder and fungal so units can't kite the ultras I hope this makes the picture more clear how BC's need the other units such as ravens and banshees to function properly in an army composition. So BC's alone need certain support units such as Ravens with their PDD's and banshees. I think PDD is VITAL for Sky Terran to work. PDD are the way terrans can set up a positional advantage similar in the way siege tanks set up positional advantages you don't want to engage a line of siege tanks just like protoss doesn't want to engage with their stalkers into a banshee/raven/viking ball when the terran can throw down 5-6 PDD's making stalkers/phoenix completely useless. Usually that will be the first engagement before Protoss begins to go toward HT tech. From there its about Terran spreading their units out to avoid storms and maybe getting ghosts like QXC did. Anyways I think Sky Terran is very STRONG but terrans need to figure out safe effective ways to transition into this style.
On March 23 2012 10:53 LeGeNDz wrote: Okay people say BC's suck but everyone needs to remember BC's are a tier3 unit and like other tier3 units such as colossus and ultras they need certain support units to survive. Collosus alone are completely weak and vulnerable to say a group of roach's running up and sniping them so protoss would needs their stalker/sentry army to force field the roachs back; everything has a synergistic effect in this game and ultras need zerglings for cannon fodder and fungal so units can't kite the ultras I hope this makes the picture more clear how BC's need the other units such as ravens and banshees to function properly in an army composition. So BC's alone need certain support units such as Ravens with their PDD's and banshees. I think PDD is VITAL for Sky Terran to work. PDD are the way terrans can set up a positional advantage similar in the way siege tanks set up positional advantages you don't want to engage a line of siege tanks just like protoss doesn't want to engage with their stalkers into a banshee/raven/viking ball when the terran can throw down 5-6 PDD's making stalkers/phoenix completely useless. Usually that will be the first engagement before Protoss begins to go toward HT tech. From there its about Terran spreading their units out to avoid storms and maybe getting ghosts like QXC did. Anyways I think Sky Terran is very STRONG but terrans need to figure out safe effective ways to transition into this style.
Why use storm when they could use feedback and do a lot more damage? Also Terran's air units are VERY gas heavy compared to Z/P. On top of that BCs are slow as hell so that leaves them vulnerable often. I could see a Terran switching the tech path in the late game to mass air if they are on the right amount of bases. There are just too many things that Z/P can produce that will give a pure Air Army a lot of trouble. PDD is good, but chances are by this time youre in the late game and your opponent will be able to just pull back when you put up your PDD. You can't just keep pushing and putting down PDDs unless u have a lot of Ravens, and then you have to worry about not letting them Feedback your Ravens. Also what is going to stop them from just abusing the speed of BCs? They could easily warp in units at a base and then u have to wait for ur clunky slow BCs to get there to save the day and most likely by the time they get there the damage has already been enough. Pure air just doesn't sound viable as an early-mid game strategy. I could see it maybe working in the late game when you have the bases to support it, but then again theyre already gonna have all the tech they need to stop it... my 2 cents
On March 23 2012 10:53 LeGeNDz wrote: Okay people say BC's suck but everyone needs to remember BC's are a tier3 unit and like other tier3 units such as colossus and ultras they need certain support units to survive. Collosus alone are completely weak and vulnerable to say a group of roach's running up and sniping them so protoss would needs their stalker/sentry army to force field the roachs back; everything has a synergistic effect in this game and ultras need zerglings for cannon fodder and fungal so units can't kite the ultras I hope this makes the picture more clear how BC's need the other units such as ravens and banshees to function properly in an army composition. So BC's alone need certain support units such as Ravens with their PDD's and banshees. I think PDD is VITAL for Sky Terran to work. PDD are the way terrans can set up a positional advantage similar in the way siege tanks set up positional advantages you don't want to engage a line of siege tanks just like protoss doesn't want to engage with their stalkers into a banshee/raven/viking ball when the terran can throw down 5-6 PDD's making stalkers/phoenix completely useless. Usually that will be the first engagement before Protoss begins to go toward HT tech. From there its about Terran spreading their units out to avoid storms and maybe getting ghosts like QXC did. Anyways I think Sky Terran is very STRONG but terrans need to figure out safe effective ways to transition into this style.
Why use storm when they could use feedback and do a lot more damage? Also Terran's air units are VERY gas heavy compared to Z/P. On top of that BCs are slow as hell so that leaves them vulnerable often. I could see a Terran switching the tech path in the late game to mass air if they are on the right amount of bases. There are just too many things that Z/P can produce that will give a pure Air Army a lot of trouble. PDD is good, but chances are by this time youre in the late game and your opponent will be able to just pull back when you put up your PDD. You can't just keep pushing and putting down PDDs unless u have a lot of Ravens, and then you have to worry about not letting them Feedback your Ravens. Also what is going to stop them from just abusing the speed of BCs? They could easily warp in units at a base and then u have to wait for ur clunky slow BCs to get there to save the day and most likely by the time they get there the damage has already been enough. Pure air just doesn't sound viable as an early-mid game strategy. I could see it maybe working in the late game when you have the bases to support it, but then again theyre already gonna have all the tech they need to stop it... my 2 cents
Well the thing is you have to engage in the right spots with PDD. You're either using your PDD's at your base to defend or you need to use the mobility of your air (excluding BC's) to surprise attack the protoss base and set up your PDD's at their base. I'm not saying I know the Ins and Outs of all of the micro and tactics of this style as noone really does or has worked out these air builds but I can say that you definitely have to use your PDD's wisely. I mean Ofcourse Feedback can counter ravens etc but every build has something that counters it as it should but it doesn't mean there aren't ways around this. If you catch a protoss off guard and hit his base, then throw down a bunch of PDD's before he moves over move your ravens back to safety far away and let the cloaked bashees do damage is probably one possible way to deal with feedback.
On March 02 2012 02:01 Quotidian wrote: Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff?
I don't really see Phoenix as the answer, for a few reasons:
One, I generally don't care. As much fun as Ravens are, their principle purpose - aside from spamming Seeker Missles at Stalkers - is to find Observers for the the Vikings/BCs to take down. If I have to, I'll gladly let the rest of my air get taken out if it means I get free shots with Banshees - if you've got enough Phoenixes to own Ravens + Vikings, I should have at least 6-8 Banshees on the field, minimum, and that's just going to shred your base with no detection up. How often does a Protoss player go straight for Phoenix anyway? It's amost always a tech switch, and unless you've already kept me on the ropes and on a low food count, you simply aren't going to outproduce my air in any event - and if you did, then I lost long before Phoenix hit the field.
Two, you generally can't force an air fight. This build already gets EBays and Turrets, and usually you want to squeeze in a bunker or two for good measure, so you're not going to get a lot of free shots at my workers to force me to defend.
Three, if we do have to duke it out in the air, I don't see how it's a flat-out win. This version of air typically has a healthy number of Ravens, which makes way too many PDD's for you to simply brush away. That, plus BC's supplementing Vikings, with the option of pulling SCV's to repair, means the field's a lot more level than you think.
I really find that the biggest problems with this build are a) very early aggression before the PF at nat can come online, b) mass Stalkers + good enough micro to keep the Observers up, and c) deathballs that focus on keeping the expo count low enough so that I choke. This build takes a lot of gas - and more importantly, time - to work, and I've lost a few where I just didn't have enough units in the early stages to do a lot of damage, which soon turned into me losing expos to mass Stalkers with enough left behind to keep me from reliably base trading.
Mass Phoenix really just tries to "win" a battle SkyTerran will do everything it can to avoid fighting, and if the Terran is good enough, can actually win.
I know this build would probably work against DTs, but I don't think it was mentioned in this guide (b/c proxy dt is my build of choice v T). I've noticed it does not usually work well versus 1-1-1 though, which this is very similar to. Also I think bunker at ramp is a tell, from my experience and it actually induces me to put a cannon in my mineral line b/c it is either hellion drop or banshee 90% of the time. Still this build sounds like a pain to play against, as I rather be the harrasser than the harassee (hence proxy dt is my build of choice).
You need to think more about the strategic use of the units rather than just putting them into an imaginary sandbox of high templar vs ravens
You'll have ghosts to deal with the High Templar (I think i'm gonna request a name change of this thread to just "Air" since previously I thought with good splitting you could deal with HT but I think getting ghosts is definitely worth it, and it makes getting BCs more viable)
@IntoTheBush
You forget that you can stack all your air units, EMP once or twice, and you're good to go. Then suddenly all his HTs are quite useless, especially if you EMP his HTs. All that gas is wasted instead of being spent on stalker.
@nyccine
I've been trying something else now; the PF is unnecessary. What I do now is just get an OC and keep the protoss at bay and send out 1 SCV into a remote area where I can build another base. If I see he tries to counterattack on 2 base like 6 gate or such, I won't have a PF at home to defend, BUT with the third CC elsewhere (thanks to extra mules from OC at natural), in which I don't upgrade until the midgame, I can turn that into a PF. If he stays home and defends and doesn't do anything, then once I get 3 base running and such then I can turn that third into an OC as well. This way you have 3 base vs 2 base and will win a base trade, while not dying to a 2 base all-in from protoss.
With an OC at the natural, it looks less weird as well, and can look like a 2-2-2 push or such. Choosing an OC instead of a PF on maps with good nat chokes like Shakuras (probably the best map for air TvP) works really really well.
On March 23 2012 14:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I agree with nyccine and LeGeNDz
You need to think more about the strategic use of the units rather than just putting them into an imaginary sandbox of high templar vs ravens
You'll have ghosts to deal with the High Templar (I think i'm gonna request a name change of this thread to just "Air" since previously I thought with good splitting you could deal with HT but I think getting ghosts is definitely worth it, and it makes getting BCs more viable)
@IntoTheBush
You forget that you can stack all your air units, EMP once or twice, and you're good to go. Then suddenly all his HTs are quite useless, especially if you EMP his HTs. All that gas is wasted instead of being spent on stalker.
@nyccine
I've been trying something else now; the PF is unnecessary. What I do now is just get an OC and keep the protoss at bay and send out 1 SCV into a remote area where I can build another base. If I see he tries to counterattack on 2 base like 6 gate or such, I won't have a PF at home to defend, BUT with the third CC elsewhere (thanks to extra mules from OC at natural), in which I don't upgrade until the midgame, I can turn that into a PF. If he stays home and defends and doesn't do anything, then once I get 3 base running and such then I can turn that third into an OC as well. This way you have 3 base vs 2 base and will win a base trade, while not dying to a 2 base all-in from protoss.
With an OC at the natural, it looks less weird as well, and can look like a 2-2-2 push or such. Choosing an OC instead of a PF on maps with good nat chokes like Shakuras (probably the best map for air TvP) works really really well.
Yeah, you can just build an extra rax with the minerals and a couple more bunkers for defense. Reactor FE also works okay, too.
Hm I'm really busy for a couple more days, but I might update it soon with new build orders and such I've found that 1 rax gasless FE into double gas 1-1-1 (expand into cloak banshee, just like mech opener) works well.
On maps where the natural is wider or if you want to be more safe, you could get reactor barracks + CC in base while getting 1-1-1. That will hold off any kind of rush or 1 base all-in. Perhaps for this gas-heavy air build, in which you don't really need a reactor later, a 2 rax expand might work better. They can help make tech labs later on and wall off the nat. I think a 2 rax is better actually. You can get marines out faster and punish Protoss immediately if he goes Nexus first and if he goes 1 Gate Expand and is too greedy, you can still pressure him and possibly cancel his Nexus (Thanks Nada for his recent TvP tutorial video). You can also float the 2nd rax (proxied) to scout him out since SCV scouts aren't 100% reliable and scans can miss tech.
Anyway, with reactor barracks expand or 2 rax expand or even 1-1-1 cloak banshee opening, you can transition very well into all three terran styles; bio, mech, air.
I think air is the future of TvP since it solves late game TvP without having the mobility problems of ground mech. That said have you tried to combine your airfleet with mass marauders? In my experience mass air is vunerable to mass stalkers untill you can get your banshe and bc count up. By going mass maruder while building up your airfleet you are less vunerable in the midgame. Plus marauder works great against stalkers even with a slight upgrade disadvantage due to to bonus damage and stim.
I will try that out I was thinking that too, just a few marauders can work really well since they have such high DPS vs Stalkers and don't die too easily to storm. I think the problem though is zealots. Perhaps marauder drops would be really effective though, like to take out cannons instead of spending more gas on Ravens for more PDD to take out cannons with banshees. Warping in zealots would mean a waste of warp time for stalkers.
I was also thinking about Hellions -- they are less food efficient by a small bit, but they don't do well when there are mass cannons defending probes. Marauders are good at taking out canons but aren't very good at killing probes. However, Hellions are very good vs Zealots and HTs and also, in large numbers, good vs Stalkers, unless if he blinks them apart to avoid splash. However, doing so would mean that you can abuse your air fleet's ability to stack up, making the stalkers unable to attack at once. Maybe with Hellions forcing many cannons, it would be worth it to make more Ravens for PDD just to take out the cannons and keep forcing protoss to remake them. Not sure.
I think both units have potential to be great support. Perhaps even both can be utilized often in the same game. I'll try them out more
On March 23 2012 17:20 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I was also thinking about Hellions -- they are less food efficient by a small bit, but they don't do well when there are mass cannons defending probes. Marauders are good at taking out canons but aren't very good at killing probes. However, Hellions are very good vs Zealots and HTs and also, in large numbers, good vs Stalkers, unless if he blinks them apart to avoid splash. However, doing so would mean that you can abuse your air fleet's ability to stack up, making the stalkers unable to attack at once. Maybe with Hellions forcing many cannons, it would be worth it to make more Ravens for PDD just to take out the cannons and keep forcing protoss to remake them. Not sure.
maybe sometime in mid-game get a reactor or get blue flame eventually on the hellion, and then force more cannons, and then nuke it when they overmake cannons at a place while sending in hellions (or marauders) into another base and just generally be all over the place with hellions and banshees? :S
I think it can definitely work, but will require lots of APM xD (or at least, has higher potential with higher APM)
Nukes sound really fun. I hope the next 2 days are over quickly for me. Then I can start experimenting more. I still haven't tried ghosts much at all yet, let alone nukes ;_;.
Actually I think with just ghosts + medivac + nukes, hellions and marauders may be unnecessary. Not useless, but unnecessary (and probably not the best way to spend apm).
Also Nada stressed that Protoss relies on upgrades a lot. I will try to get double armory up much faster and focus on sniping forges early on with 1-2 PDD. I'll try to find some timings or general things to look for. In the guide I think I was saying it might be better sometimes to go for other tech, but I think sniping Forges is best cus it's the most guaranteed damage, and it doesn't take too long to kill. Good thing forges got nerfed way back then in beta If you can keep denying upgrades, even if you sac a lot of units, you can eventually be 3-3 vs 0-0-0. Since Banshees do so much DPS, I think it's quite possible, especially on Shakuras. Pretty much all angles leading into their bases are open to air paths.
Edit: Oops, I mean if they put the cannons around the nexus, probably don't need Hellions. And they would have to put them around their nexus or else you could kill the probes :D. So nuke would stop mining + kill cannons, possibly kill some pylons/probes too.
It's fine if you're on a lower level. Not everyone is masters so it is still helpful to get feedback from lower leagues to know what parts work well and what parts don't
On March 23 2012 17:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I think it can definitely work, but will require lots of APM xD (or at least, has higher potential with higher APM)
Nukes sound really fun. I hope the next 2 days are over quickly for me. Then I can start experimenting more. I still haven't tried ghosts much at all yet, let alone nukes ;_;.
Actually I think with just ghosts + medivac + nukes, hellions and marauders may be unnecessary. Not useless, but unnecessary (and probably not the best way to spend apm).
Also Nada stressed that Protoss relies on upgrades a lot. I will try to get double armory up much faster and focus on sniping forges early on with 1-2 PDD. I'll try to find some timings or general things to look for. In the guide I think I was saying it might be better sometimes to go for other tech, but I think sniping Forges is best cus it's the most guaranteed damage, and it doesn't take too long to kill. Good thing forges got nerfed way back then in beta If you can keep denying upgrades, even if you sac a lot of units, you can eventually be 3-3 vs 0-0-0. Since Banshees do so much DPS, I think it's quite possible, especially on Shakuras. Pretty much all angles leading into their bases are open to air paths.
I'm also starting to get into the game again too, even though I'm low level ;;
I'll be trying to test with your/this style though, so hopefully through my gameplay I'll think of more interesting stuff ^^'
also I just think hellions just so you keep the protoss on their toes, but idk /shrug
as for your edits...
Edit: Oops, I mean if they put the cannons around the nexus, probably don't need Hellions. And they would have to put them around their nexus or else you could kill the probes :D. So nuke would stop mining + kill cannons, possibly kill some pylons/probes too.
It's fine if you're on a lower level. Not everyone is masters so it is still helpful to get feedback from lower leagues to know what parts work well and what parts don't
Ah, I see. Oh iirc if you do 3 nukes at one time at least on a CC and hatchery, it dies from the 3rd nuke (idk I was bored) idk about nexus, but probably same *shrug*
as for lower level - I guess, I'm working up ^_~ training with my clan/community members that I helped create, which has some masters+ (and lower too, but yeah)
although I need to play through the opener a couple of times before I want to actually use it anywhere.. hmm..
On March 23 2012 14:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hm I'm really busy for a couple more days, but I might update it soon with new build orders and such I've found that 1 rax gasless FE into double gas 1-1-1 (expand into cloak banshee, just like mech opener) works well.
On maps where the natural is wider or if you want to be more safe, you could get reactor barracks + CC in base while getting 1-1-1. That will hold off any kind of rush or 1 base all-in. Perhaps for this gas-heavy air build, in which you don't really need a reactor later, a 2 rax expand might work better. They can help make tech labs later on and wall off the nat. I think a 2 rax is better actually. You can get marines out faster and punish Protoss immediately if he goes Nexus first and if he goes 1 Gate Expand and is too greedy, you can still pressure him and possibly cancel his Nexus (Thanks Nada for his recent TvP tutorial video). You can also float the 2nd rax (proxied) to scout him out since SCV scouts aren't 100% reliable and scans can miss tech.
Anyway, with reactor barracks expand or 2 rax expand or even 1-1-1 cloak banshee opening, you can transition very well into all three terran styles; bio, mech, air.
Can't wait to see what you're doing with this. I was a big fan of Synystr's banshee build way back when, and it'll be fun if there's an even better way of doing it.
On March 23 2012 14:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hm I'm really busy for a couple more days, but I might update it soon with new build orders and such I've found that 1 rax gasless FE into double gas 1-1-1 (expand into cloak banshee, just like mech opener) works well.
On maps where the natural is wider or if you want to be more safe, you could get reactor barracks + CC in base while getting 1-1-1. That will hold off any kind of rush or 1 base all-in. Perhaps for this gas-heavy air build, in which you don't really need a reactor later, a 2 rax expand might work better. They can help make tech labs later on and wall off the nat. I think a 2 rax is better actually. You can get marines out faster and punish Protoss immediately if he goes Nexus first and if he goes 1 Gate Expand and is too greedy, you can still pressure him and possibly cancel his Nexus (Thanks Nada for his recent TvP tutorial video). You can also float the 2nd rax (proxied) to scout him out since SCV scouts aren't 100% reliable and scans can miss tech.
Anyway, with reactor barracks expand or 2 rax expand or even 1-1-1 cloak banshee opening, you can transition very well into all three terran styles; bio, mech, air.
hmm, question about this
if you do this, and since you also said about the OC vs PF in the natural.. when do you exactly take the natural? around when you get your first raven+viking out, then you take the natural?
what are your thoughts on banshee vs stalkers in relation to surface area because banshee are air units and therefore unaffected by constriction of space but stalkers are pretty fat and so when fighting over a cliff or in a tight space often half the stalker are not in attack range meaning you can take them out a little at a time.
example 10 banshee will lose to 20 stalkers over open ground but if you can find a space where only five stalkers can attack at once you could potentially win with your stacked banshee.
I seemed to have not mentioned it here, but yes definitely!
If I can get this kind of style working with support hellions (ideally for the maps where it's harder to take bases far away from each other like on cloud kingdom and dual site so that air "can work" on "all" maps) then the banshee stacking will be even more powerful. Reason being that hellions rape stalkers if they're clumped up in large numbers. But if he spreads them apart, it'll be harder to attack the banshees. So either he can kill banshees but lose all his stalkers or he can lose stalkers but kill the hellions.
Banshee harass is also really powerful when they have a lot of clutter around their mineral line; stalkers stream in 1 at a time and it takes forever to defend. In that kind of situation sometimes you can pick the stalkers off one by one as they stream in (like behind the mineral line).
I wanted to post a longer post on my experience about this style (playing it like 3-4 months already with 70% winrate on ~25 masters) but I'll just post a replay of a game I just played. Since the problem with this style is the beginning I started to play 2rax 1/1/1 drop into expo (as default) but it all depends on what the enemy plays, if I see a fast expo i go 1/1/1.
To the point: The replay shows how easily one can defend a b-stalker rush with 2 rax: http://drop.sc/164069
This is such a sick guide. I started practicing sky Terran just for fun. Once you reach that critical mass of banshees / ravens / vikings / BCs you can't be killed save for high templar. But since you have a ton of minerals all the time you can mass ghosts pretty easily. It's funny that the guide mentions PFs when I used several just as a reactionary defense in my first sky terran game. :D It was against a bronzie but it worked very well. I swear, some bronze players have better macro than gold.
What if the opponent goes mass air like mass void rays to counter your air build? Sure you got vikings for that and you can kite but i dont know if it is coss efficient...
On April 25 2012 10:50 Dontkillme wrote: What if the opponent goes mass air like mass void rays to counter your air build? Sure you got vikings for that and you can kite but i dont know if it is coss efficient...
Ravens with HSM takes care of mass voidrays. Mass carriers is taken cared of BCs with yamato. Dont forget you also most often get EMP off on both of these.
Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent.
I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map.
The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies.
What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on?
On April 25 2012 17:39 rebotfc wrote: Indeed HSM is awesome vs Voidrays.
The hardest thing to deal with is mass upgraded stalkers + HT composition.
Upgraded BCs deal with that without any problems, especially if you get off some good EMPs with it.
EDIT: Im usually running with SkyTerran in lategame in TvP, so yeh.. trust me on this one, its a VERY potent strategy. I usually feel that Ive already won if I survive the first 20min or so. The most deadly push is when P is at +3+3 and me at +2+2 really. Once I survive that I usually end up with PFs all over the map, good amount of bases secured and skyterran transition initiated.
On April 25 2012 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent.
I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map.
The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies.
What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on?
..What?
You can blink into the main from the 4th, and blink across from the 3rd to the main as well from the middle ground between natural and third (not 100% on that, but I think you can)
On April 25 2012 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent.
I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map.
The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies.
What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on?
..What?
You can blink into the main from the 4th, and blink across from the 3rd to the main as well from the middle ground between natural and third (not 100% on that, but I think you can)
If I recall correctly you can blink small numbers, or shift-blink but there's not the ability to blink big masses of stalkers in a ball which you sometimes need to get those banshee snipes/getting the PDDs down quickly if they're bringing ravens, in certain positions anyway. It's more the positioning of the dead air spaces behind bases that make Tal'Darim a pain, as there's quite a lot of them behind spaces, and just a lack of space to positioning your defending units, so your stalkers kind of fan in and get melted.
There is plenty of capacity to deal with small-scale harassment style but if they commit and start to PDD with sizeable amounts of units it's pretty tough.
Again this might be a personal stylistic deficiency for me, but suitable maps/unsuitable maps is an interesting area of discussion, regardless of my points being retarded or not :p
On April 02 2012 11:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I seemed to have not mentioned it here, but yes definitely!
If I can get this kind of style working with support hellions (ideally for the maps where it's harder to take bases far away from each other like on cloud kingdom and dual site so that air "can work" on "all" maps) then the banshee stacking will be even more powerful. Reason being that hellions rape stalkers if they're clumped up in large numbers. But if he spreads them apart, it'll be harder to attack the banshees. So either he can kill banshees but lose all his stalkers or he can lose stalkers but kill the hellions.
Banshee harass is also really powerful when they have a lot of clutter around their mineral line; stalkers stream in 1 at a time and it takes forever to defend. In that kind of situation sometimes you can pick the stalkers off one by one as they stream in (like behind the mineral line).
The bolded parts make my protoss side very sad. Is blink micro figured into this statement?
On April 02 2012 11:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I seemed to have not mentioned it here, but yes definitely!
If I can get this kind of style working with support hellions (ideally for the maps where it's harder to take bases far away from each other like on cloud kingdom and dual site so that air "can work" on "all" maps) then the banshee stacking will be even more powerful. Reason being that hellions rape stalkers if they're clumped up in large numbers. But if he spreads them apart, it'll be harder to attack the banshees. So either he can kill banshees but lose all his stalkers or he can lose stalkers but kill the hellions.
Banshee harass is also really powerful when they have a lot of clutter around their mineral line; stalkers stream in 1 at a time and it takes forever to defend. In that kind of situation sometimes you can pick the stalkers off one by one as they stream in (like behind the mineral line).
The bolded parts make my protoss side very sad. Is blink micro figured into this statement?
I'm pretty sure no. Even with blink micro, you might still only be able to kill a few of the Banshees.
Just some notes when I did try this a few months ago is that its very very gas intensive (then mech), and transitioning your core units ala banshees to BCs is very hard against good opponents. One thing for sure is that once you reach a high BC count with the right supporting units, it becomes very hard to deal with. However there is one way for the P to deal with it, which amusingly is the same thing you deal with infestor/BLs. Archon toliet.
Now ghosts can solve this issue but ghosts restrict the mobility you gain by going air (spreading out is an option too but the tendency for units to clump everytime is a problem). So it becomes kind of coin flippy if you somehow miss your emps and half your army gets vortexed.
On April 25 2012 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent.
I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map.
The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies.
What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on?
Like in the maps section in the guide, Shakuras Plateau is actually really good (at least in my experiences). The air space around the bases is huge, and at the beginning it's easy to take a corner third base (or land it in one of the rocked off areas).
Tal'darim is decent I think, but I don't think it's perfect just cus it's big. There is a lot of land space in the middle, which can make things troublesome.
For a map like Cloud Kingdom, this kind of style doesn't work well. But i don't mean air in general, but the way I describe it in this guide. You could probably get it to "work" if you turtle on 3 base (maybe even with a PF) while you get maxed BCs or something, i don't know xD. Sorta like what QXC did, he just sorta turtled.
On April 26 2012 12:02 YyapSsap wrote: Just some notes when I did try this a few months ago is that its very very gas intensive (then mech), and transitioning your core units ala banshees to BCs is very hard against good opponents. One thing for sure is that once you reach a high BC count with the right supporting units, it becomes very hard to deal with. However there is one way for the P to deal with it, which amusingly is the same thing you deal with infestor/BLs. Archon toliet.
Now ghosts can solve this issue but ghosts restrict the mobility you gain by going air (spreading out is an option too but the tendency for units to clump everytime is a problem). So it becomes kind of coin flippy if you somehow miss your emps and half your army gets vortexed.
Another thing to consider though is that if you stick with Banshees, you'll need to make LOTS more Starports to raise your production high enough, which hinders your midgame a lot, though it makes lategame a bit easier (you already have the production up). But if you get BC earlier, that's possible (I will have to play more to see if this is still a good idea or not, now that I've moved up in MMR a bit) because you don't need to build nearly as many Starports, though it would limit the option of making mass air units that aren't BC (cus you have less starports). If you think about it, BC is 6 food and finishes in 90 seconds, Banshee is 3 food but finishes in 60 seconds. Compared to a stalker, a banshee in a up front fight is really more like a 2 supply unit, so 1 supply per 30 seconds for banshee is 2 times slower than 1 supply per 15 seconds for BC. And since BCs are really supply efficient, it really is more like 5 Stalkers (4?) vs 1 6 supply BC. So it's like a BC is 1 supply per 9 seconds, that's 3 times faster than Banshee, so that's like having 3 Starport on 3 base instead of 9.
So if you make those extra 6 port with 6 tech labs, that's 1200/750, that could be another 2 BCs and a CC (especially since you waste mining time with those SCVs as well), which really is like him having almost 10 stalkers less and being almost 1 more base down.
I'm going to be super busy for the next 2-3 weeks cus of AP tests but after that I am FREE from school and would like to try new things. For example, with a cloak banshee expand, maybe you could get 2 banshee and 1 raven (as usual) but get 1 BC asap. It's sort of like having a thor out for mech; you can mass repair it and it will keep you safe against 6 gate or such. It has less DPS but more HP and you can stack SCVs under to repair faster. Also, it can't be targeted by immortals unlike Thor. This way, it could be an easy way to get BCs out, so that you don't even need to bother with more than 1-2 vikings early to snipe observers since you have BC to deal with any phoenix.
Crazier idea: If he happens to go for forge upgrade, time BC (2 or 1 idk) with 1 or 2 PDD to snipe 1-2 forges if they are in an OK spot for you to snipe. With cloak banshee harass earlier, you should be able to know generally when forge is up and when you should snipe (before upgrade is about to finish).
Other ideas: Less Raven, maybe none. Save gas for more armory upgrades and use scan to kill observers instead. Beefier army, better detection, faster to make army (Raven take long time to build). If anyone would like to help test that would be appreciated ^^;
the built iteself is great but the control of the units is hard
when i have my 2nd base
do my banshee harras i go just the guide says with viling raven and shees to harras him
on that time i swithc to bio air since you have so much extra minerals and get my 3rd from that point he goes all out vs my base and dies or he is in disadvantage since i kill so much stuff like tec in his base
After I switched to 2 rax opening I had a 100% winrate (mabye with the exeption of geting 2 proxy gated one time and my sloppy micro). Now in this game I messed up a lot, simply because of how easy for me it usually is to win, the basic wrong thing I did was to let him scout (I win even when the opponent exactly knows what I'm doing) and he prepared.
He did exactly what had to be done, ~6phoenexies to slow me down, tons of cannons and stalkers and then storm. He had a way better income so he could just mass zealot my PFs. I did 0 dmg harrasing because he was so well prepared.
I still think this is the future of TvP but when this gets more popular it will require some changes.
Btw. I hope after todays MvP's mass BC vs squirtle, BC will get a buff :p
Baki, I watched your replay and even tho he did prepare for you. He simply out macro'd you. Your Starports where idle for much of the time, 18th-19th minute 20th to 20.45. And much afterwards when he was attacking your bases.
ALso i think the other mistake you made, was when seeing the phoenix and HT, you should realise that he would not have a massive ground army at that time. So you could have more aggressively expanded, and teched up to BC due to the HT.
That said, this strategy is very hard to play vs a great macro toss because its very hard to keep up with supply due to slow production.
On May 20 2012 13:31 rebotfc wrote: Baki, I watched your replay and even tho he did prepare for you. He simply out macro'd you. Your Starports where idle for much of the time, 18th-19th minute 20th to 20.45. And much afterwards when he was attacking your bases.
ALso i think the other mistake you made, was when seeing the phoenix and HT, you should realise that he would not have a massive ground army at that time. So you could have more aggressively expanded, and teched up to BC due to the HT.
That said, this strategy is very hard to play vs a great macro toss because its very hard to keep up with supply due to slow production.
about the last part, i did calculations and realized how BCs are really cheap in a way, compared to banshees
BCs build much faster and are much more supply efficient than Banshees; by getting very early BCs, you can have a much, much stronger army/defense (though it is slower so it's harder to harass in way, though I'm wondering if there may be some kind of timing where you snipe a forge with yamato or something) since you don't have to waste so much money on starports to make up for banshee's slow production nor for banshee's cheap cost
and of course, getting early BCs would make you not need vikings (if he gets voids, then an equal number of vikings will give you a significant advantage since you can just kite those voids and vikings are cheaper) also, BCs are harder to snipe, so that is 1 advantage over banshees; if you aren't looking, you can lose 1-2 crucial banshees, but you may not lose even 1 BC; a BC's high HP also allows it to more easily snipe a building and back off
all that money could also go to a much earlier double armory
i still haven't tested the things i wanted to, but i'm going to be graduating in 2 days so hopefully i can soon there's a lot of outdated stuff in this guide as well so hopefully i can clean it up.
EPT
Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units. Maybe even Nukes since you can deny Observers (omg this sounds so fun :D).
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Lag, lose 1 marine almost 2nd marine and a hellion. I remake hellion, kill his probe so he can’t proxy, run back in and defend. First banshee goes to look for him, I find him in the last spot, but my 2nd banshee is going there too. I hit him from both sides with Cloak done, he suffers heavy damage from not having more than 1 obs.![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241005.jpg)
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Thanks for teaching me Sky Terran.
