EPT[G] TvP Pure Air - Page 19
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Corvette
United States433 Posts
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tdt.Baki
18 Posts
I have also tested SM vs PDD; 4 ravens (full energy) & 8 banshees (no cloak) vs 25 stalkers; if one uses 4 SM (+4 turrets for the remaining energy) all T units will die leaving 2-4 stalkers; when you throw down 8 PDD you lose only a few banshees *again I can't recollect the exact numbers since i wasn't doing it to post it here; but when i saw SM posts i thought I'll share what i know* One more note: when i see fast phoenixes in masses; i prefer to get a fast SM then more vikings since SM rapes stacked phoenixes so baaaad :d | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
12,000 words? I though i found the record holder yesterday, but this....this is the biggest thread i have ever seen! congratulations man, this is amazing work | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On December 09 2011 20:44 tdt.Baki wrote: I've tried SM mineral lines a few times (in custom games mainly) and it's not really effective, it's better to throw down 4 auto-turrets instead; SM could be effective if he had a really poor saturation or 1-2 minerals left so that he has like 10 probes in one place; I have also tested SM vs PDD; 4 ravens (full energy) & 8 banshees (no cloak) vs 25 stalkers; if one uses 4 SM (+4 turrets for the remaining energy) all T units will die leaving 2-4 stalkers; when you throw down 8 PDD you lose only a few banshees *again I can't recollect the exact numbers since i wasn't doing it to post it here; but when i saw SM posts i thought I'll share what i know* One more note: when i see fast phoenixes in masses; i prefer to get a fast SM then more vikings since SM rapes stacked phoenixes so baaaad :d Thanks for the data  On December 09 2011 14:32 jrdn wrote: Just an fyi, workers can outrun SM if they have a head start Unit Speed vs Seeker Missile Oh yeah, of course ^^ On December 09 2011 14:57 Corvette wrote: This build and its popularity on ladder has made pvt absolutely miserable Yay! I mean, i'm glad people are trying this out. But sort of not xD On December 09 2011 20:58 firehand101 wrote: Wow....... 12,000 words? I though i found the record holder yesterday, but this....this is the biggest thread i have ever seen! congratulations man, this is amazing work Thank you <3 On December 09 2011 14:54 GorE_ wrote: so there's a challenge for the thread... give it a go.. i will be... see if we can get some replays of it. even if you use the banshee to make them run, position the raven off to the side where they will run to the natural... and bombs away... i'm optimistic It sounds pretty realistic/doable | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
once again i could be wrong | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 10 2011 06:53 GorE_ wrote: Has anyone tried to do this after a reaper expand? seems like a pretty logical path to me... once again i could be wrong Almost any opening can transition into a big air play. I personally do it off of a 1 rax reactor expo siege rush. You'll see people do it off of a 1 rax FE, or banshee rush -> FE. You could even do something interesting like a 2 rax pressure expo, then stop making bio as you transition to air. Although Yoshi Kirishima's build order is the best-optimized for "I'm not making anything that doesn't come out of a starport", it's possible to transition to a similar midgame from other builds. I guess the big difference here is whether you're going "pure air", "all gas going air" or something mixed. I've seen players who still dump some minerals into marines and hellions, and do drops and stuff as well, which isn't pure air, but produces the same number of air units, since all the gas is going there. It expands more slowly, of course, since you're making mineral units. I make 5 tanks, and get siege mode and stimpack and lots of marines when I go for banshee and battlecruiser centric play. I don't play "pure air", but rather, "big air"-- a more hybridized version, which benefits less from things like armory upgrades, and has a smaller and less powerful air fleet, but has ground forces. | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
the Yoshi Kirishima is cool... but i would like to see how much economy i can squeeze out before doing it.. i like the MASS air thing.. i think that adding some mech in would probably do quite well.. seeing as if you have big air they are unlikely to want to build immortals/chargelots/colossus... this could be the answer to mech we have all been looking for.. | ||
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OlDan
Austria36 Posts
I make 5 tanks, and get siege mode and stimpack and lots of marines when I go for banshee and battlecruiser centric play. I don't play "pure air", but rather, "big air"-- a more hybridized version, which benefits less from things like armory upgrades, and has a smaller and less powerful air fleet, but has ground forces. Care to post a replay, sounds quite good...? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 10 2011 07:09 GorE_ wrote: i would like to see some early expand variants of this style... the Yoshi Kirishima is cool... but i would like to see how much economy i can squeeze out before doing it.. i like the MASS air thing.. i think that adding some mech in would probably do quite well.. seeing as if you have big air they are unlikely to want to build immortals/chargelots/colossus... this could be the answer to mech we have all been looking for.. Well, believe it or not, they still make plenty of chargelots against big air just because of spare minerals. Here is my experience with it, using a 1 rax FE and transitioning to 2-3 base marine/tank/banshee... On December 10 2011 07:18 OlDan wrote: Care to post a replay, sounds quite good...? Already have, previously in the thread. 2 replays, 2 VoDs to go with them. Low Master NA http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283935¤tpage=17#325 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283935¤tpage=17#336 If you're not planning on rushing out marines and tanks though, it's probably better to do Yoshi Kirishima's PF expo, just because it can actually hold of pressure pretty handily, and gets banshees quicker. | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
bit of map control that i noticed you lacked a little at the beginning of that game... if they leave their base... bam 6 hellions into their mineral line...goodbye probes... | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On December 10 2011 08:01 GorE_ wrote: thanks for that... seems to me like a reactor hellion expand could be a possibility bit of map control that i noticed you lacked a little at the beginning of that game... if they leave their base... bam 6 hellions into their mineral line...goodbye probes... reactor hellion expand, i forgot about opening with something other than marine/bio expand xD Since hellions can deal with ground well, you can save your gas for air units. I'm excited to try this out ^^ | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
Versus very very good Protoss' they can see the line of the PDD and thus blink out of it, not to mention vikings are basically useless since they won't make phoenix or VR. Lots and lots of things you're not taking into consideration is the skillset, it's like saying of course MVP can probably beat 99.99% of the P's in the world with Mech, but vs the best it clearly just won't work for a myriad of reasons. The style by nature is a gamble and also -eV the longer the game goes. Even if you argue 'ghosts' vs the HT's or whatever, you're still praying for a control battle. It's like going pure baneling with drops vs Protoss and hoping you win the FF vs baneling micro. Oh and it autodies to any 5gate robo pressure followup. It's a neat thing to do vs weaker player, but the style itself is really weak for a plethora of reasons that I mentioned above. And for people arguing that it just needs to be "worked on", no, mech might have some breathing room to be worked on, but that's because the unit composition of mech is not always relying on surprise/special timings/some luck the way this does. Hope this helps ~ | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On December 10 2011 08:53 lastshadow wrote: Me/sixjaxMajOr(and we're not even that good compared to some Korean T's, and of course the P's were tried it versus were obviously not Code A/S either, just another thing to note) used to try this a lot back in the day but it doesn't work. Any good protoss with protoss blink micro destroys the banshees and/or makes PDD's useless. Not to mention they'll just get lots and lots of HT's and feedback (or force all your banshees to cloak/uncloak rapidly to drain their energy) and constantly put you on the backfoot. Versus very very good Protoss' they can see the line of the PDD and thus blink out of it, not to mention vikings are basically useless since they won't make phoenix or VR. Lots and lots of things you're not taking into consideration is the skillset, it's like saying of course MVP can probably beat 99.99% of the P's in the world with Mech, but vs the best it clearly just won't work for a myriad of reasons. The style by nature is a gamble and also -eV the longer the game goes. Even if you argue 'ghosts' vs the HT's or whatever, you're still praying for a control battle. It's like going pure baneling with drops vs Protoss and hoping you win the FF vs baneling micro. Oh and it autodies to any 5gate robo pressure followup. It's a neat thing to do vs weaker player, but the style itself is really weak for a plethora of reasons that I mentioned above. And for people arguing that it just needs to be "worked on", no, mech might have some breathing room to be worked on, but that's because the unit composition of mech is not always relying on surprise/special timings/some luck the way this does. Hope this helps ~ Aw, that's sad to hear  Thanks a lot for your input How about if it's on a weird map like calm before the storm though, where the map is huge and u can take 3 base quickly? Or are bigger maps even worse since he can just warp in anywhere? you can deny pylons too though? Or if we get to see some "air" maps, like semi-island maps or ones with a lot of twisty, tight ground paths and obstructions that make air units very mobile? | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
still learning.. i think it's the surprise factor that gets people... i'm cool with that... i still want to see the HSM thing in effect | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
take a look, long games  http://drop.sc/71729 http://drop.sc/71730 I've sort of mentally decided to just be kind of a pitbull with energy units around HTs.. it won't work against anyone good, but just ignoring the feedbacks on the banshees and going after the defensive HTs seems to work fine so far. You don't need to get out of there until the rest of the protoss army shows up. Ravens are really fun! | ||
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kusu
Sweden440 Posts
He did a 5gate robo (which lastshadow said would be really good vs this iirc) early push and did good damage. Though i held it i was a little lucky. Then it transitioned into a 30 min game watch the game and say what you think | ||
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GorE_
Australia26 Posts
i like the offensive PFs and your reactor expo build... very cool... i will almost definately be stealing it cheers Nate | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On December 11 2011 07:18 GorE_ wrote: i like the offensive PFs and your reactor expo build... very cool... i will almost definately be stealing it Thanks! I think the Shattered Temple game was the better executed version of that opening. It feels pretty safe.. I think you could even build your CC at your natural on some maps (like Shattered or Shakuras) I have trouble vs. 3 gate VR all-ins though, but that is true for pretty much every opening I do. I have no idea how to hold it -_- I'm starting to reconsider the hellion harass though. It's nice when the protoss player has no idea how to react, or is just really surprised, and you kill almost every worker he has. But most people I encounter now are pretty good at handling it. I'm thinking I squeeze out one hellion inside his base, scout with it - maybe kill one worker, run it to his nat to see if he's expoed and then occupy a watchtower with it. The CC will come 200 minerals sooner if I do that as well. | ||
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caduceus
United States11 Posts
http://drop.sc/65584 | ||
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