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I hope it's ok if I post another replay, even though it's not pure air. The opening/midgame is at least relevant, because I transition into factory/fortress after having gone air for a while. I never completely transition out of air - but ideally I'd want a ton of ravens by the endgame.
Here's the first game I've ever played where I had this weird, tingling feeling that something is up, even before scouting my opponent's tech, leading me to not cut as much gas and expand a little bit later.
http://drop.sc/72274
The cheesy factory scout also payed off a lot. There's really no reason not to proxy the factory, except that it gives your tech away (somewhat). Unless the protoss is going for a really, really fast VR, there's almost no way they can destroy it.
By the way, I think have a 100% winrate with mass air style after I started switching into fortress+mech/air in the lategame. It's not that many games, but still.. feels nice ^^
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Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
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On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote:
Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
continue with your original game plan - you should be way ahead if you didn't take too much damage.
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The important thing is to not forget tech nor macro during the push; especially tech actually.
Remember that a 4Gate often has no Robo, which means no detection. Your Banshees can do a lot of damage that way. Warp prism play can be defended easily by making a Viking. So get that Starport quick son.
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On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote:
Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this?
Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!)
On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote:Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running. http://drop.sc/65584
Oh, FUCK!
But damn too bad it's not a long game? 3 port off 1 base LOL wtf!!!
anyways thanks ^^
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On December 12 2011 09:10 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote:
Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this? Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!) Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote:Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running. http://drop.sc/65584 Oh, FUCK! But damn too bad it's not a long game? 3 port off 1 base LOL wtf!!! anyways thanks ^^
I used to do 3 port banshee on one base vs zerg. Appearantly you can only support 2 starports, but I always ended up with more banshees if I went with 3. Extremely all-in, of course.
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On December 12 2011 12:19 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 09:10 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 12 2011 01:57 Bluelightz wrote:
Quick question,
I get into this situation,
I hold a 4 gate then, I don't know what to do after
so,what should i do after this? Hopefully you didn't need to cancel you Cloak, so just go over to his base and kill all his probes. If his probes run, attack pylons to supply block him from making anything (including observers!) On December 11 2011 20:15 caduceus wrote:Found a recent replay of Thorzain doing a TvP air build. It's a 1-1-1 into 3-port off of one base, with cloaked banshees followed by raven/viking support, and mineral dump to reactored hellions. He finished off the P nearly before his own expansion was up and running. http://drop.sc/65584 Oh, FUCK! But damn too bad it's not a long game? 3 port off 1 base LOL wtf!!! anyways thanks ^^ I used to do 3 port banshee on one base vs zerg. Appearantly you can only support 2 starports, but I always ended up with more banshees if I went with 3. Extremely all-in, of course.
that's strange but i guess ill have to check out the replay to understand
the only reason i can see why u pick 3 instead of 2 is u delay the starports so that he can't scout u at the normal time or something, and then u throw down an extra starport to "catch up"?
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On November 26 2011 01:44 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2011 00:52 Quotidian wrote:On November 26 2011 00:29 RoboBob wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to finish games quickly with this playstyle. I've been having a lot of success with mass air TvP, my only complaint is that it takes *forever* to get the gg. Most of the time I'll finish the game with a gazillion bases and kill a gazillion nexii but the Protoss just won't gg out, just continue to turtle until starve-out. http://sc2rep.com/replays/(T)robobob_vs_(P)StThanatos/16050 I think you and I are making some of the same mistakes, and that is doing a lot of unfavorable army trades. Considering how expensive and slow to build banshees are, we really shouldn't be sacrificing them as much. Also, a reason that game stretched on that long is that you weren't really hitting his tech (instead you were letting his air to air army kill your ground to air army) and you didn't take out his 9 o'clock expo - which would've been easy if you had just scouted it. You were never that far ahead, despite having a ton of bases. I've started building bunkers at as many of the protoss expos as possible. If I catch the probe wanting to build a nexus, I just salvage and get ready to take out the nexus while it's building or try and attack it to pull the protoss army out of position while counterattacking with the brunt of my army somewhere else. That's certainly a good point about hitting tech. But the P turtled his army on top of all his tech structures so I didn't think it was viable. As you saw he went for like 5+ Observer, so I thought it would be impossible to seize an instawin with cloak. You're right that I should've spotted his fourth earlier. But that's very general "no duh" advice that would apply even if I was doing MMMGV instead of Air. Mostly I'm looking for ideas on how to finish out games more quickly. When I'm going MMMGV I don't get sucked into 30+ min games just because I missed the fourth going up by a few minutes =P My rationale behind the unfavorable trades was that I had such a massive economic advantage (7 base vs 3 base) that I just wanted to make sure to prevent the P from reaching a 200/200 deathball with Stargate units. Which is really the only thing I fear from P with this playstyle. It's interesting that you think we should preserve the Banshee/Viking count instead of sending them to grinder. It's been my experience that the best way to fight with long build time units is to constantly be churning them to the front so our production facilities are running at all times. Because whenever we lose that type of army we make ourselves vulnerable to a huuuge timing window where we have no defense. In fact, that actually happened in the replay I linked. That's why I lost my 5 o'clock expo at some point. (not that it really mattered, because I had a ton of other expos) Another reason why I prefer smaller than 200/200 engages vs Protoss is that Protoss has just devastating lategame AE. The bigger the army we send at them, the more damage their AE does. Banshees can dodge storms by magic boxing over Stalkers, but Vikings can't do the same thing over Protoss air. I dunno, maybe I should've got Ghosts? I have tried lategame Reapers with some success, just because I get sooo much gas with this build. They're either hit or miss depending upon the opponent's multitasking. Just a single round of warpin can defend because the Reapers won't have any infantry upgrades. However I have gotten lucky a couple times with an 8 pack of Reapers in the back, Banshee+Viking attack at the front. The Reapers are cheap on supply, which is really nice in the lategame. Assuming that you missed the 9 o'clock, what would've you done differently? Would you have suicided units to kill tech instead of army? Or transitioned into some other army composition?
Always know how much you are trading for how much. If I am secure with my econ with enough map control to be able to react, i would willingly sacrifice equal value of army to kill his tech.
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Yoshi, you hardly ever seem to do any repair on your airforce, even when they are sitting in your base. Is there a specific reasoning behind this?
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On December 12 2011 23:28 Carrera26 wrote:
Yoshi, you hardly ever seem to do any repair on your airforce, even when they are sitting in your base. Is there a specific reasoning behind this?
Yeah, I was watching some of the vods of Yoshi's stream earlier, and I think thats just a consistent hole in his play. Not just with Sky TvP, but all builds all matchups (No offense intended Yoshi, you're still definitely better than me!)
I feel that if we don't have any bio, then we *need* to bring at least a handful of SCVs with our army in order to compensate for the lack of Medivac healing. I think the only matchup where we can really get away going no bio no SCV is TvT, because our opponent is equally as bad at reproducing as us. :p But we should still repair anyway!
I facepalmed sooo many times watching Yoshi lose massive Hellion/Thor/Banshee balls unnecessarily in TvZ. 4-8 SCVs is all we need to keep a 150-200 supply mech army alive vs all the stuff that is good at killing it (which is almost always highly mobile, quick remax stuff like Stalker/Colossi, Muta/Roach, MMM, etc). Repair isn't just for PFs and Bunkers!
Oh yeah, one thing about your stream Yoshi...I hate to say it, but with your current setup its a really really bad idea to play music. Normally I enjoy anime music, but because your sound quality is so low, it all sounds like crap and makes my ears bleed.  I'd much rather listen to the high-quality anime music on my own PC. When you get a better setup it might be cool to play music, but for now I think you're better off sticking to just game sounds+mic. The "new unit framerate drag" thing didn't bother me at all, it was just the sound that bugged me really.
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Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
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On December 13 2011 06:29 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:28 Carrera26 wrote:
Yoshi, you hardly ever seem to do any repair on your airforce, even when they are sitting in your base. Is there a specific reasoning behind this? Yeah, I was watching some of the vods of Yoshi's stream earlier, and I think thats just a consistent hole in his play. Not just with Sky TvP, but all builds all matchups (No offense intended Yoshi, you're still definitely better than me!) I feel that if we don't have any bio, then we *need* to bring at least a handful of SCVs with our army in order to compensate for the lack of Medivac healing. I think the only matchup where we can really get away going no bio no SCV is TvT, because our opponent is equally as bad at reproducing as us. :p But we should still repair anyway! I facepalmed sooo many times watching Yoshi lose massive Hellion/Thor/Banshee balls unnecessarily in TvZ. 4-8 SCVs is all we need to keep a 150-200 supply mech army alive vs all the stuff that is good at killing it (which is almost always highly mobile, quick remax stuff like Stalker/Colossi, Muta/Roach, MMM, etc). Repair isn't just for PFs and Bunkers! Oh yeah, one thing about your stream Yoshi...I hate to say it, but with your current setup its a really really bad idea to play music. Normally I enjoy anime music, but because your sound quality is so low, it all sounds like crap and makes my ears bleed. I'd much rather listen to the high-quality anime music on my own PC. When you get a better setup it might be cool to play music, but for now I think you're better off sticking to just game sounds+mic. The "new unit framerate drag" thing didn't bother me at all, it was just the sound that bugged me really.
Yeah I keep forgetting . When I turn on autorepair, my SCVs don't seem to repair them unless they're really close.
Sorry to make you face palm  It might have been cus i was lagging really hard though ( I forgot to fix my streaming settings before playing and didn't realize what was wrong ).
And thanks for the feedback lol. I can turn it up, but idk what's the normal... is it supposed to be 256? I thought it was just the 128 or so im doing lol. I can do that. Right now I can still stream up to 500 more kbps, only problem is that my PC isn't good enough, but i don't think increasing audio quality requires much PC power.
Also, what's "framerate drag"? I turned down my fps to 20 because I couldn't figure out what was causing my PC to be slow. I might keep it on 20 fps though, at least to me when I watch it it doesn't bother me. Though obviously the video quality could be clearer . Maybe I should just use a 1280x720 monitor, so that I can run SC2 in that resolution which would save a good amount of PC power (and also stream in that res ofc).
And if I have better audio, that would probably help people hear me as well right? xD
On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote:
Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair?
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On December 13 2011 07:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote:
Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits. Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair?
keeping the ghosts and scvs in the medivacs would be pretty cool  .. just like people putting ht's and such into warp prisms :o
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On December 13 2011 07:55 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote:
Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits. Sounds like a good idea, problem is that usually these are a bit gimmicky because it means more APM is needed, which might not be available. And yeah I could be a lot more aggressive with sending in SCVs to battle since i need to clear up food anyways and i have so many CC i can rebuild them quickly, they would help tank too, like you said Stalkers are quite bad at killing SCVs especially if I got a couple Medivacs to transport them + maybe even ghosts. HTs would be a bit of a problem, but perhaps not if you get rid of the HTs with ghosts or just keep the SCVs loaded up in medivacs until it's safe to repair? keeping the ghosts and scvs in the medivacs would be pretty cool .. just like people putting ht's and such into warp prisms :o
kekek yeah
too bad WP can fly much faster and only use minerals though xD
and it's 100/100 vs 150 hp 1 armor
But perhaps it is balanced this way since Ghosts > HT and if medivacs were like WP then idk what protoss would get to counter the Ghosts lol ( so that they can deal with the air ). They could go phoenix stalker but they don't have the HTs to defend with storm and feedback, and phoenix don't really counter terran air 
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On December 13 2011 06:47 Carrera26 wrote:
Dont know if this is total Noob (I am a gold scrub after all) but I used to play a lot of Air Terran in TvT and I would bring along a medivac or two (once near max) with my main fleet on it's own hotkey, full of SCVs on autorepair. whenever I was had the fleet parked for a minute anywhere I would simply drop the SCVs and they would repair the fleet, then just picked them up when I moved out. They were also great to drop in Viking vs. Viking/Thor as both of those are going to be shooting at air exclusively, and with good micro you can drop the low units back to the scvs. Against Stalkers you any stalker you have not shooting an air unit is a good thing and just like in the 1/1/1 they tank like crazy because they are auto-repairing under a medivac (or two)
You definitely have enough SCVs with that many bases and a trust fund of minerals, and it might save you from losing 1000+ gas of Raven/Banshee/whatever from just a few hits.
I think this is a great idea. The only real cost I see is the starport time that is "wasted" on the medivac production. However, it certainly seems well worth it if you remember to repair in between skirmishes. This is especially true early game as banshees can soak a lot of stalker shots and retreat safely (it is easy to time withdrawals due to stalker slow rate of fire).
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Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
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On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
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I finally got a pretty good match of my variation on Sky Terran. I go 1rax reactor FE into Sky Terran, but it seems like this guy has seen the build before and reacts well. Both of us are diamond. Please excuse mistakes in my fundamentals, I'm coming back to the game after a long break and I'm still a bit rusty. This replay contains:
- Deflected harass!
- Void rays!
- Lots of High Templar!
- Banshees!
- Storm dodging!
- Many dead observers!
Enjoy http://drop.sc/75535
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On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
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On December 17 2011 20:11 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
it abuses the fact that tosses fearing the 1-1-1 so much :D
On December 18 2011 04:06 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
check my stream (http://hu.twitch.tv/breach_hu/), you can find a lot of games with this build in the long (8, 13, 16-hour-long sessions of mine)
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EPT
