EPT[G] TvP Pure Air - Page 23
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Dontkillme
Korea (South)806 Posts
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On April 25 2012 10:50 Dontkillme wrote: What if the opponent goes mass air like mass void rays to counter your air build? Sure you got vikings for that and you can kite but i dont know if it is coss efficient... Ravens with HSM takes care of mass voidrays. Mass carriers is taken cared of BCs with yamato. Dont forget you also most often get EMP off on both of these. Cheers Dan | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
The hardest thing to deal with is mass upgraded stalkers + HT composition. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25995 Posts
I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map. The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies. What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on? | ||
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dotDash
Sweden142 Posts
On April 25 2012 17:39 rebotfc wrote: Indeed HSM is awesome vs Voidrays. The hardest thing to deal with is mass upgraded stalkers + HT composition. Upgraded BCs deal with that without any problems, especially if you get off some good EMPs with it.  EDIT: Im usually running with SkyTerran in lategame in TvP, so yeh.. trust me on this one, its a VERY potent strategy. I usually feel that Ive already won if I survive the first 20min or so. The most deadly push is when P is at +3+3 and me at +2+2 really. Once I survive that I usually end up with PFs all over the map, good amount of bases secured and skyterran transition initiated. Cheers Dan | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On April 25 2012 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent. I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map. The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies. What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on? ..What? You can blink into the main from the 4th, and blink across from the 3rd to the main as well from the middle ground between natural and third (not 100% on that, but I think you can) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25995 Posts
On April 25 2012 18:59 iAmJeffReY wrote: ..What? You can blink into the main from the 4th, and blink across from the 3rd to the main as well from the middle ground between natural and third (not 100% on that, but I think you can) If I recall correctly you can blink small numbers, or shift-blink but there's not the ability to blink big masses of stalkers in a ball which you sometimes need to get those banshee snipes/getting the PDDs down quickly if they're bringing ravens, in certain positions anyway. It's more the positioning of the dead air spaces behind bases that make Tal'Darim a pain, as there's quite a lot of them behind spaces, and just a lack of space to positioning your defending units, so your stalkers kind of fan in and get melted. There is plenty of capacity to deal with small-scale harassment style but if they commit and start to PDD with sizeable amounts of units it's pretty tough. Again this might be a personal stylistic deficiency for me, but suitable maps/unsuitable maps is an interesting area of discussion, regardless of my points being retarded or not :p | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On April 02 2012 11:56 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I seemed to have not mentioned it here, but yes definitely! If I can get this kind of style working with support hellions (ideally for the maps where it's harder to take bases far away from each other like on cloud kingdom and dual site so that air "can work" on "all" maps) then the banshee stacking will be even more powerful. Reason being that hellions rape stalkers if they're clumped up in large numbers. But if he spreads them apart, it'll be harder to attack the banshees. So either he can kill banshees but lose all his stalkers or he can lose stalkers but kill the hellions. Banshee harass is also really powerful when they have a lot of clutter around their mineral line; stalkers stream in 1 at a time and it takes forever to defend. In that kind of situation sometimes you can pick the stalkers off one by one as they stream in (like behind the mineral line). The bolded parts make my protoss side very sad. Is blink micro figured into this statement? | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 26 2012 00:13 Treehead wrote: The bolded parts make my protoss side very sad. Is blink micro figured into this statement? I'm pretty sure no. Even with blink micro, you might still only be able to kill a few of the Banshees. | ||
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SKDN
Sweden243 Posts
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On April 26 2012 01:36 crocodile wrote: 20 shots I believe. The energy also regenerates, so depending on how long it survives, it can absorb even more. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
Now ghosts can solve this issue but ghosts restrict the mobility you gain by going air (spreading out is an option too but the tendency for units to clump everytime is a problem). So it becomes kind of coin flippy if you somehow miss your emps and half your army gets vortexed. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
On April 25 2012 17:49 Wombat_NI wrote: Apologies if I haven't spotted posts referring to this but I feel this style is extremely extremely potent, but quite map-dependent. I'm a Protoss player and this is probably the style I struggle most with, so I practiced quite a few games with my friend doing this style. Despite knowing what he was doing I vowed not to blind counter him and play it out standard, and the results were extremely variable depending on map. The best for this style I have experience on is Tal'Darim. The inability to quickly blink around between your bases makes the harassing elements, and the appropriate defence a lot harder to gauge. On maps like Shakuras I've found this balance easier to deal with due to the way the bases are laid out. In terms of speed this composition isn't particularly mobile, so you can still get outmanouvered. It's not much more mobile than mech really, the strength comes from abusing dead airspaces and those kinds of nooks and crannies. What maps do you feel this is good on, and which would you avoid it entirely on? Like in the maps section in the guide, Shakuras Plateau is actually really good (at least in my experiences). The air space around the bases is huge, and at the beginning it's easy to take a corner third base (or land it in one of the rocked off areas). Tal'darim is decent I think, but I don't think it's perfect just cus it's big. There is a lot of land space in the middle, which can make things troublesome. For a map like Cloud Kingdom, this kind of style doesn't work well. But i don't mean air in general, but the way I describe it in this guide. You could probably get it to "work" if you turtle on 3 base (maybe even with a PF) while you get maxed BCs or something, i don't know xD. Sorta like what QXC did, he just sorta turtled. On April 26 2012 12:02 YyapSsap wrote: Just some notes when I did try this a few months ago is that its very very gas intensive (then mech), and transitioning your core units ala banshees to BCs is very hard against good opponents. One thing for sure is that once you reach a high BC count with the right supporting units, it becomes very hard to deal with. However there is one way for the P to deal with it, which amusingly is the same thing you deal with infestor/BLs. Archon toliet. Now ghosts can solve this issue but ghosts restrict the mobility you gain by going air (spreading out is an option too but the tendency for units to clump everytime is a problem). So it becomes kind of coin flippy if you somehow miss your emps and half your army gets vortexed. Another thing to consider though is that if you stick with Banshees, you'll need to make LOTS more Starports to raise your production high enough, which hinders your midgame a lot, though it makes lategame a bit easier (you already have the production up). But if you get BC earlier, that's possible (I will have to play more to see if this is still a good idea or not, now that I've moved up in MMR a bit) because you don't need to build nearly as many Starports, though it would limit the option of making mass air units that aren't BC (cus you have less starports). If you think about it, BC is 6 food and finishes in 90 seconds, Banshee is 3 food but finishes in 60 seconds. Compared to a stalker, a banshee in a up front fight is really more like a 2 supply unit, so 1 supply per 30 seconds for banshee is 2 times slower than 1 supply per 15 seconds for BC. And since BCs are really supply efficient, it really is more like 5 Stalkers (4?) vs 1 6 supply BC. So it's like a BC is 1 supply per 9 seconds, that's 3 times faster than Banshee, so that's like having 3 Starport on 3 base instead of 9. So if you make those extra 6 port with 6 tech labs, that's 1200/750, that could be another 2 BCs and a CC (especially since you waste mining time with those SCVs as well), which really is like him having almost 10 stalkers less and being almost 1 more base down. I'm going to be super busy for the next 2-3 weeks cus of AP tests but after that I am FREE from school and would like to try new things. For example, with a cloak banshee expand, maybe you could get 2 banshee and 1 raven (as usual) but get 1 BC asap. It's sort of like having a thor out for mech; you can mass repair it and it will keep you safe against 6 gate or such. It has less DPS but more HP and you can stack SCVs under to repair faster. Also, it can't be targeted by immortals unlike Thor. This way, it could be an easy way to get BCs out, so that you don't even need to bother with more than 1-2 vikings early to snipe observers since you have BC to deal with any phoenix. Crazier idea: If he happens to go for forge upgrade, time BC (2 or 1 idk) with 1 or 2 PDD to snipe 1-2 forges if they are in an OK spot for you to snipe. With cloak banshee harass earlier, you should be able to know generally when forge is up and when you should snipe (before upgrade is about to finish). Other ideas: Less Raven, maybe none. Save gas for more armory upgrades and use scan to kill observers instead. Beefier army, better detection, faster to make army (Raven take long time to build). If anyone would like to help test that would be appreciated ^^; | ||
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perser84
Germany399 Posts
when i have my 2nd base do my banshee harras i go just the guide says with viling raven and shees to harras him on that time i swithc to bio air since you have so much extra minerals and get my 3rd from that point he goes all out vs my base and dies or he is in disadvantage since i kill so much stuff like tec in his base | ||
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tdt.Baki
18 Posts
After I switched to 2 rax opening I had a 100% winrate (mabye with the exeption of geting 2 proxy gated one time and my sloppy micro). Now in this game I messed up a lot, simply because of how easy for me it usually is to win, the basic wrong thing I did was to let him scout (I win even when the opponent exactly knows what I'm doing) and he prepared. http://drop.sc/183462 He did exactly what had to be done, ~6phoenexies to slow me down, tons of cannons and stalkers and then storm. He had a way better income so he could just mass zealot my PFs. I did 0 dmg harrasing because he was so well prepared. I still think this is the future of TvP but when this gets more popular it will require some changes. Btw. I hope after todays MvP's mass BC vs squirtle, BC will get a buff :p | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
ALso i think the other mistake you made, was when seeing the phoenix and HT, you should realise that he would not have a massive ground army at that time. So you could have more aggressively expanded, and teched up to BC due to the HT. That said, this strategy is very hard to play vs a great macro toss because its very hard to keep up with supply due to slow production. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10363 Posts
On May 20 2012 13:31 rebotfc wrote: Baki, I watched your replay and even tho he did prepare for you. He simply out macro'd you. Your Starports where idle for much of the time, 18th-19th minute 20th to 20.45. And much afterwards when he was attacking your bases. ALso i think the other mistake you made, was when seeing the phoenix and HT, you should realise that he would not have a massive ground army at that time. So you could have more aggressively expanded, and teched up to BC due to the HT. That said, this strategy is very hard to play vs a great macro toss because its very hard to keep up with supply due to slow production. about the last part, i did calculations and realized how BCs are really cheap in a way, compared to banshees BCs build much faster and are much more supply efficient than Banshees; by getting very early BCs, you can have a much, much stronger army/defense (though it is slower so it's harder to harass in way, though I'm wondering if there may be some kind of timing where you snipe a forge with yamato or something) since you don't have to waste so much money on starports to make up for banshee's slow production nor for banshee's cheap cost and of course, getting early BCs would make you not need vikings (if he gets voids, then an equal number of vikings will give you a significant advantage since you can just kite those voids and vikings are cheaper) also, BCs are harder to snipe, so that is 1 advantage over banshees; if you aren't looking, you can lose 1-2 crucial banshees, but you may not lose even 1 BC; a BC's high HP also allows it to more easily snipe a building and back off all that money could also go to a much earlier double armory i still haven't tested the things i wanted to, but i'm going to be graduating in 2 days so hopefully i can soon there's a lot of outdated stuff in this guide as well so hopefully i can clean it up. | ||
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