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On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Thanks for sharing  GM wow!
On December 17 2011 20:11 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice  . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base.
Hm are you sure? Cus you know when you base trade against Terran, especially against air style, it is really hard to win
On December 18 2011 04:06 kusu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet!
What kusu said
On December 18 2011 04:18 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2011 20:11 Welmu wrote:On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
It can work once, but not twice . I watched replay and noticed that I could have just attacked at many point and go do straight win. Its still really good, since protosses usually assume that Terran is going to do normal bio if Terran has 2+ base. it abuses the fact that tosses fearing the 1-1-1 so much :D Show nested quote +On December 18 2011 04:06 kusu wrote:On December 17 2011 10:08 Breach_hu wrote:
Hey there~
I started to use something familiar on my own and its completely wrecks tosses on ladder (EU GM terran) then i saw this thread so i felt like i write in it! :D
its a really good build, after losing so many TvPs, this helped me a lot to get confidence againts tosses.
its just ridiculous, i was able to win againts tosses, whom againts i usually lose with mmmvg. (like welmu etc.)
even i was able to win a bo3 series with it, when in the second game the toss guy knew that i will go for this build. i could win when they scouted exactly whats coming. you can react perfectly againts everything, that toss can throw at you using PFs seekers banshees viking and BCs, using different composition againts different toss styles. really refreshing after losing so many uninspiring tvps with marinemarauder. and its seems it can be polished and refined to make it better.
Wow nice! It would be really awesome if you'd share some replays. I'd like to see your variance of the build and see how good you play it hehe. sweet! check my stream ( http://hu.twitch.tv/breach_hu/), you can find a lot of games with this build in the long (8, 13, 16-hour-long sessions of mine)
Will do ! :D
And oh yeah great point about 1-1-1. But I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it because (and i'm not sure what kind you do) it's safe to open 1-1-1 with banshees vs Protoss if they fear 1-1-1 all-in because it means they have an early expansion, meaning they can't kill you early on? Or is it because they think you're doing a 1-1-1 all-in and don't realize you're expanding and going mass air?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I actually played around a lot with more Big Air play at HWG's Zerg Christmas Lan Tourney! I'm currently uploading the replays and making battle reports, which I'll share here since it seems appropriate. All I gotta say is HTs op though. It was definitely stalker/HT that gave me the most trouble going big air.
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On December 24 2011 07:40 Blazinghand wrote:
I actually played around a lot with more Big Air play at HWG's Zerg Christmas Lan Tourney! I'm currently uploading the replays and making battle reports, which I'll share here since it seems appropriate. All I gotta say is HTs op though. It was definitely stalker/HT that gave me the most trouble going big air.
Nice Will be looking forward to it!
Yeah HTs and storm is the hardest to deal with the longer the game goes. I'd say it would help a lot to go into a unit tester with a friend, and just practice splitting air units vs storm for 1 hour. Even 5 minutes could help a lot.
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Posting in this thread so I can find it later >_>
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^ditto lol.
I've been thinking about using air more, especially ravens in early game TvT and TvP. This is an awesome guide! I will try out some of the strategies since I've always been looking for ways to use more air units (my ID )
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United States5660 Posts
hi, do you have to go 1/1/1 and then expand, or can you go 1rax CC/reaper expand and then go into sky terran... or is that totally unsafe ._.
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On January 26 2012 11:10 zhurai wrote:
hi, do you have to go 1/1/1 and then expand, or can you go 1rax CC/reaper expand and then go into sky terran... or is that totally unsafe ._.
I think 1 Rax CC into Sky Terran is unsafe. If you're gonna 1 Rax FE, then you need to follow up with an 3-4 extra Rax immediately just to survive a 3-6 Gate+ timing attacks. And if you do that then you might as well go MMM. Going 1 Rax directly into Sky will leave you with too few units to defend any pressure, even with a Planetary at your natural.
1-1-1-expo or 1-1-2-expo is the best way to open into Sky Terran TvP, imo. It's bad to allin with Sky Terran because the more gasses you take, the stronger it gets. But you do need to get all that tech out of the way ASAP. And you need to do at least some free damage with it early, in order to compensate for the delayed expo.
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Oh god it's a trend!
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
I wonder how scoutable this is...
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On January 26 2012 12:28 Dright wrote:
Oh god it's a trend!
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
I wonder how scoutable this is...
My proposed build looks like a 111 build. They won't know it's a 2 port until they scout you with a 2nd or even 3rd observer, because they'll need the first observer to stay home to defend against the Cloak Banshees. Once his observer comes if u hide ur 2nd starport he might not even scout it. He might notice there's no marines though or tanks and feel suspicious. Either way, by the time he figures out you have 2 port, you will be safe so long as you follow the scouting directions I mentioned and adapt properly. By then you will have cloak banshees keeping him at bay and a PF or OC + Bunkers to defend at home.
You can 1 gate FE but it means Terran will be safe with Cloak banshee opening. It will give them a foothold to get into the midgame safetly cus they don't have to worry about an early attack or a counter attack. I suggest you make sure you keep your stalkers in your mineral lines and get observers out ASAP, and try to keep up in expansions + Stalker while teching up to 3/3/3 and/or HT storm and/or observer speed. You can even pump 2 stargate phoenix before all that, it might catch terran off guard and cause him to have to mass vikings without knowing whether you cut your phoenixes or not.
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On January 26 2012 12:28 Dright wrote:
Oh god it's a trend!
I ran into something similar in plat (as toss ofc) and died and felt like I should have destroyed him =P. I really hope there's a way to one gate fe and still defend this, cuz toss air isn't that great vs terran air (buff carrier range! Interceptors without minerals! automatic autocast interceptor!).
I wonder how scoutable this is...
Great Guide Yoshi!
To respond to the bold, aren't phoenixes good against everything he's making but marines and BCs?
Vikings have 125 health and do 10 dps (+1 per upgrade) against Phoenixes. Phoenixes have 180 health and do 9 dps (+1.8 per upgrade) against Vikings. Even the PDD (which you shouldn't have to engage) only adds a 100-point health bump. The real reason early game terran air is so good against protoss is that banshees do so much damage that even if left undetected for a small amount of time, banshees absolutely wreck ground armies. Take the vikings out of the equation with phoenixes, though, and its a different ballgame.
The best part about a phoenix switch here is that phoenixes are so fast that you can use them to keep tabs on what he's building so that you don't get caught unaware that he's been making almost entirely air.
At the moment, the point is a bit moot because nobody really uses phoenixes in PvT - but perhaps with the range upgrade they'll find their way back into the works. Phoenix/Colossus was pretty popular in korea for a time early on in SC2's evolution.
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Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff?
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On March 02 2012 02:01 Quotidian wrote:
Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff?
Better question: has anyone actually gotten the phoenix range against terran yet? It's not exactly been a popular upgrade to get on the boards yet (though that doesn't mean it isn't good).
To expand on what I said earlier, if you go gate robo expand, your observer should get to their base while their building their second banshee (I think - feel free to correct me if this timing is off, it's based on experience so I don't always look back to see if they got the "fastest possible" banshee). This should give you time to build a stargate and still keep even with his viking numbers because he's comitting early resources to banshees.
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On March 02 2012 02:13 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 02:01 Quotidian wrote:
Yeah, I found that phoenixes wrecks pretty much all mass air tvp builds. Anybody been trying air vs protoss post phoenix buff? Better question: has anyone actually gotten the phoenix range against terran yet? It's not exactly been a popular upgrade to get on the boards yet (though that doesn't mean it isn't good).
I've heard some anecdotal stuff here and there that +2 phoenixes are very useful vs terran, yes.
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yeah and i've heard that pdd is very good vs. protoss
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On March 02 2012 03:30 freetgy wrote:
yeah and i've heard that pdd is very good vs. protoss
pdd is good vs protoss. What's your point?
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On March 02 2012 03:30 freetgy wrote:
yeah and i've heard that pdd is very good vs. protoss
Stalkers, yes. Phoenix? No. HT can FB. Archon can target and probably 2 hit. Sentry can target down. VR can target down.
Infact, I tihnk phoenix drain PDD faster than anything else does.
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I've been using that style myself for a while now (EU Master).
Imo best way to counter it is expand fast, get upgrades and go for HT/Archon tech.
Protoss air is possible too, but tricky because:
P needs to commit to full air wich is a difficult decision when he doesn't know for sure that you are commiting to full air too.
He cant really transition later because you should be ahead on upgrades.
BC are very good against P air. Hunter seeker is awesome too. So I think its the worse way to play against it.
As for the style itself i think its very viable if you get to mid-late game. But i havent found a safe opening yet. Protoss can do so fucking strong pressures while expanded and has so many all ins most of wich just crush that 111 opening.
I guess you have to keep making reactored marines, that way you could transition into a 111 all in aswell if you see it working.
As for lategame, you have the mobility advantage, but in straight up fights archons and storm wrecks banshees like the paperplanes they are :/. Have to experiment more with magic boxing and parking my banshees over his army to counter that, but dont think that works too good.
As for Ravens, HSM sucks vs protoss ground forces, they are way too big. PDD is still great vs. stalkers though. Just make sure to keep your ravens out of feedback range.
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A while ago I played a T on ladder and he went CC first (hidden), so I scouted his late rax and was like wtf is he doing..
I decided to 4gate him and end the game quickly but he had a trillion bunkers.
After that he started to pump a trillion banshees and started to mass expand with PFs..
then he started to make alot of vikings and ravens.. I lost horribly, I felt so bad after that loss
Not sure what to do against that style tbh
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blink stalkers, immortal bust, or everything with a warp prism would have destroyed that opening
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On March 08 2012 06:05 Deadstrider wrote:A while ago I played a T on ladder and he went CC first (hidden), so I scouted his late rax and was like wtf is he doing.. I decided to 4gate him and end the game quickly but he had a trillion bunkers. After that he started to pump a trillion banshees and started to mass expand with PFs.. then he started to make alot of vikings and ravens.. I lost horribly, I felt so bad after that loss Not sure what to do against that style tbh
1 CC and 4+ bunkers? Throw down 2 expansions and tech up to whatever you want. Aren't terrans usually worried about giving you too much space? So use it.
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EPT
