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On November 29 2011 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently.
Looks a lot like Synystr's 4 Port build.
You go for a 2 Rax expand, get both gases at 27, 3 Bunkers at 30.
Factory ASAP, Starport, Raven + Cloak.
The difference is that he gets Thors, but I haven't had much success with Thors mixed in. I think you can just skip the armory and get siege tanks + siege mode. On the later stages of the game you make 2 PFs in front of your nat and siege there, thus making a base trade virtually impossible!
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you shouldn't worry about posting your build and then it becomes useless because they know what your doing. In BW there was a saying that with good build you shouldn't rely on your opponent making a mistake and not scouting it. You should be able to give him vision and still win, not because it's sneaky but because its solid.
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On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on
Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down.
Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
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On December 06 2011 09:06 Kukaracha wrote:
Just a question: do you feel that HSM is really that efficient?
I usually go straight to mass Banshee while harassing multiple locations at once, expanding and making PFs. I can often win with pure Banshee (and some Vikings), at high Diamond level. The DPS is insane. Is HSM not just a cute spell to use on Stalkers?
As someone that doesn't care much for seeker missile against Protoss, I can still say that every Raven you get will be insanely valuable. It is significant that the build time is the same as banshees, so if you're floating extra gas Ravens are almost never a bad choice. I usually don't get more than 5 or 6, since they're mostly for pdd, but they swing fights against stalkers heavily in your favor. Phoenixes make pdd a bit worse but it's still important to win the air battle with Vikings. It's kind of dependent on the relative size of your army at a given point in the game, but for example if you already have 10 banshees, 2-3 ravens will always be better than 2-3 more banshees. When I fly into the Protoss main and drop four PDDs over their production facilities, tech, and pylons, it's usually over (unless they lhave an overwhelming Phoenix force that I never scouted or a ton of HTs and I sit in storms). Last night after a base race my 10 0/0 banshees and 1 pdd killed 20 blink stalkers with +1 atk. Then I used an auto turret to snipe an observor, which I should have done during the fight so that cloak worked :/.
I have been finding that unit retention is a very big deal. Always repair damaged units, and try to keep those first two harrassing banshees alive. The build time is too long to be reckless in the early game. I'm especially guilty of losing ravens stupidly, which is no good at all. My success rate has also increased by avoiding confrontation and waiting for the stalkers to get out of position. I lose an expo but they lose their main. One big thing, however, is that they'll take other bases and mass stargates or something, so it's important to have small hit squads looking for those before they get out of hand. By the time you kill their main they might have some far away base all cannoned up and pumping phoenixes and/or carriers. I still overwhelm them with macro but it becomes much harder than it should have been.
I need to remember upgrades more. Not only are upgraded banshees and vikings much better, but it makes a switch to 3/3 battlecruisers pretty unstoppable. Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
Finally, on some maps (Shakuras, Tal'darim Altar, Temple?) you can bunker up the natural early to make it look like a regular expand build, and get a OC. I very much like having extra scans, and it's less obvious so they are less prepared for mass air. The downside has been that in a base trade the blink stalker all-in killed my main AND natural instead of just my main. That shit is getting more popular, but I haven't lost to it yet, fortunately.
Anyway, I'm still loving the build. It definitely takes practice to micro properly and make the right decisions. And XNC still feels impossible for a number of reasons.
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On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote:
Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
carrriers are really bad vs battlecruisers
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On December 07 2011 04:44 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down. Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT.
I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't?
I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate.
On December 07 2011 05:24 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote:
Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
carrriers are really bad vs battlecruisers
Good to know! I guess all the armor on BCs makes interceptors pretty bad.
edit: Wow, I just ran the numbers from my pocket sc2 database app and if my calculations are correct it takes a carrier 51.56 seconds to kill a BC, compared to 23 seconds vice versa. There are lots of reasons why these numbers won't be perfect in a real game setting, but the difference is staggering nonetheless. I've never seen such a battle happen since nobody builds either capital ship on the matchup, but with this build it could come up. For some reason two Protoss have tried to go carriers against me.
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On December 07 2011 01:21 Micromancer wrote:
you shouldn't worry about posting your build and then it becomes useless because they know what your doing. In BW there was a saying that with good build you shouldn't rely on your opponent making a mistake and not scouting it. You should be able to give him vision and still win, not because it's sneaky but because its solid.
Yeah that's why I ultimately decided to post my guide ^^
On December 06 2011 22:34 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 10:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I'm thinking of a new opening where you get an early expansion with possibly reactor (or just 2?) rax pumping marines, and maybe a couple siege tanks at your natural instead of a PF, and then add only Starports, and do some kind of small timing with 1-2 vikings and a raven, in which you can spread your banshees out and harass and/or focus on specific bulidings or such. Sort of like how MVP does those marine tank expand into marine tank banshee push vs Protoss recently. Looks a lot like Synystr's 4 Port build. You go for a 2 Rax expand, get both gases at 27, 3 Bunkers at 30. Factory ASAP, Starport, Raven + Cloak. The difference is that he gets Thors, but I haven't had much success with Thors mixed in. I think you can just skip the armory and get siege tanks + siege mode. On the later stages of the game you make 2 PFs in front of your nat and siege there, thus making a base trade virtually impossible!
Except with his, doesn't he rely on a 1/1 combatshield+stim timing? I'm thinking more something like what jjakji and MVP did vs Oz, when doing the 2/2/2 marine tank banshee push, except obviously you don't push xD.
On December 07 2011 06:04 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 04:44 kNightLite wrote:On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down. Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT. I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't? I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate. Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 05:24 freetgy wrote:On December 07 2011 05:12 Senorcuidado wrote:
Who wins between cruisers and carriers anyway? Is it better to let them kill interceptors like marines do, or focus fire?
carrriers are really bad vs battlecruisers Good to know! I guess all the armor on BCs makes interceptors pretty bad. edit: Wow, I just ran the numbers from my pocket sc2 database app and if my calculations are correct it takes a carrier 51.56 seconds to kill a BC, compared to 23 seconds vice versa. There are lots of reasons why these numbers won't be perfect in a real game setting, but the difference is staggering nonetheless. I've never seen such a battle happen since nobody builds either capital ship on the matchup, but with this build it could come up. For some reason two Protoss have tried to go carriers against me.
Wow BCs quite good eh? xD
What he means I think is when you have enough mineral SCVs, he will stop and make more CCs. Which I think is the right thing to do because i don't think constantly producing SCVs is necessarily faster to get more CCs and therefore gas in most situations. But I'm not sure actually, could use testing xD (would take a bit of time tho =/)
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Hi, I just want to say thanks for this amazing guide. 
I was struggling in TvP with Bio, going as far as to play less because of this matchup. Then I found this guide.
It took a while to learn it, macro mechanics first, when to expand,(all the time) when to attack, how to scout, how to basetrade.
But once I got it down, I've had a HUGE winrate spike against protoss. It was like this:  Thanks for teaching me Sky Terran.
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I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
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On December 08 2011 14:16 Fencer710 wrote:Hi, I just want to say thanks for this amazing guide. I was struggling in TvP with Bio, going as far as to play less because of this matchup. Then I found this guide. It took a while to learn it, macro mechanics first, when to expand,(all the time) when to attack, how to scout, how to basetrade. But once I got it down, I've had a HUGE winrate spike against protoss. It was like this: Thanks for teaching me Sky Terran.
Thank you for commenting I'm glad you're enjoying it! (you ARE having fun playing SC2 right? :D)
On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote:
I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
Hm well against my build, I think 2 stargate (assuming an expand build from Protoss) phoneix into take lots of bases with cannons and stalkers while rushing to HT works really well. If you get blink quickly the cannons make it hard for terran to do any damage to the nexuses or probes because he will be getting vikings, worrying about the phoenixes. PDD + ravens are a little out of the question since ravens would cost so much gas and you already don't many many banshees.
I'm not 100% if this works, but a couple people have done it to me and I found it really hard since as Terran I can't know really how many Phoenixes he has, so I can easily overproduce Vikings.
If you can show a replay, maybe I can point out some things that you might not have considered before? Especially since if he does some sort of 2 base into air play it can be quite different.
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Hello, first of all thanks for the guide imo bio doesn't work anymore and after seeing the mass posts on help me in TvP i guess I'm not the only one
Anyways, I'm a top25 master Terran that has been testing your guide for some time but it looks like I still keep on doing something wrong, please analyze my replay and tell me what did go wrong?
http://drop.sc/70413
The usual problem is that I get my main-base raped but not this time, I did go for a late game with mass expand, even had 2/1 upgrades compared to 2/2 of his (& he should be ahead); although I built the armories in the wrong place; and I guess it's important to get a factory & fly in somewhere so that I don't lose the ability to build starports?
Anyway, thanks in advance
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On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote:
I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p
I think that a turtling toss is the way to go if you don't succeed a 2-base bust.
LOTS of cannons at your expansons, leave an HT at each (much like the way HerO defends in PvZ). Banshees have a tendency to stack, so storms can be quite deadly.
But still, it's a very strong build for the late game. I usually end up with many PFs, which is a pain for HT-based Protoss to go through. Your best bet is a 1 base or 2 base push. Rushing to blink stalkers is often an autowin, sentry-heavy 4Gate works pretty well, and 3gate immortal is decent. 3gate stargate also does the job but is quite often a cheesy build.
It's also very important to get a few cannons early on. They will provide detection, as having just 2 observers will often allow the terran to do lots of damage just by poking in multiple locations at once.
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On December 08 2011 21:58 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2011 14:21 FreshVegetables wrote:
I played this build or a variation of it, and I tell you it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. I just dont know how to deal with all the banshees and vikings that are sniping my obs. Phoenix based builds get demolished really hard. I guess rushing for high templar while trying to secure additional bases (After 1 gate exp) is the way to go about this. But yeah, any tips would be highly appreciated.
ps. 1k master p I think that a turtling toss is the way to go if you don't succeed a 2-base bust. LOTS of cannons at your expansons, leave an HT at each (much like the way HerO defends in PvZ). Banshees have a tendency to stack, so storms can be quite deadly. But still, it's a very strong build for the late game. I usually end up with many PFs, which is a pain for HT-based Protoss to go through. Your best bet is a 1 base or 2 base push. Rushing to blink stalkers is often an autowin, sentry-heavy 4Gate works pretty well, and 3gate immortal is decent. 3gate stargate also does the job but is quite often a cheesy build. It's also very important to get a few cannons early on. They will provide detection, as having just 2 observers will often allow the terran to do lots of damage just by poking in multiple locations at once.
Though the problem with the 4 gate and 3 gate stargate (at least the all-in version of it, like proxy or etc.) is that you will be doing them somewhat blindly, since you won't know for sure if he's just doing 111 expand (or do those both kill 111 expand? if he has enough bunkers he should be fine)
On December 08 2011 19:00 tdt.Baki wrote:Hello, first of all thanks for the guide imo bio doesn't work anymore and after seeing the mass posts on help me in TvP i guess I'm not the only one Anyways, I'm a top25 master Terran that has been testing your guide for some time but it looks like I still keep on doing something wrong, please analyze my replay and tell me what did go wrong? http://drop.sc/70413The usual problem is that I get my main-base raped but not this time, I did go for a late game with mass expand, even had 2/1 upgrades compared to 2/2 of his (& he should be ahead); although I built the armories in the wrong place; and I guess it's important to get a factory & fly in somewhere so that I don't lose the ability to build starports? Anyway, thanks in advance
Yeah I'll check it out!
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Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
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On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote:
Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate
It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle.
But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up.
Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
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On December 07 2011 06:04 Senorcuidado wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 04:44 kNightLite wrote:On December 06 2011 19:42 ThePianoDentist wrote:
people seem to get mad when they lose to this xD
would you recommend getting some extra rax and some marines to help bolster your defences with bunkers as this style is soo gas heavy. maybe im just not expanding fast enough? then if you dont want the marines when getting near max just suicide them?
then this allows for a transition later if he seems to be dealing with this style well. i.e. if i want to get ghosts later on Yeah this build is so mineral-light that I struggled with that too at first. Its important to get yourself in the mode of building CCs instead of SCVs when you float minerals. And if you overmake SCVs, use them agressively in combat to keep their number down. Its actually quite shocking how many expos you can take so quickly when you're not making SCVs or Marines. I feel like this playstyle has given me a great deal of insight into how Zergs play ZvT. I'm curious what you mean about not building SCVs. I don't stop until I have 70-80, maybe you know something I don't? I've found that when I'm really on top of it and take an early third and fourth, saturate gases and start production at 8 starports, I don't float TOO many minerals. Just enough to keep expanding at a reasonable pace, replace lost CCs, keep up depot and turret production, etc. I'm pretty sure that at most points in the game, if you aren't currently building a CC you're doing it wrong - but I wouldn't make such a statement unequivocally and there are surely situations where such an axiom is not appropriate.
It's been my experience that post 200/200 I never need more than 40 SCVs on minerals. So when I'm on 4 base I'll have an extra 24 SCVs on gas for a total of 64 SCVs. That's enough for 8 Starports worth of constant production of Viking/Banshee + Double Armory. Plus a little extra for a constant CC+Turret. If I lose a ton of SCV,then I just cut the CC+Turret until I get back up to norm. It's so easy to recycle 20 SCVs when I'm on 4 CCs so fast.
I suppose if you get above 4 base then you might want to add on more gas SCVs. That way you could afford more Raven/BC. However by the time I usually get base #5 and 6 up and running the geysers in my main poop out.
For the most part, I think we're always better off with less SCVs so we can get a bigger army. We don't need to worry about 300 food warpgate pushes like we do with Bio, so we don't need such a massive economy. We should be retaining most of our army with mobility+repair anyway.
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On December 09 2011 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote:
Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle. But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up. Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though.
ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere...
sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes..
viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
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On December 09 2011 12:56 GorE_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote:
Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle. But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up. Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though. ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere... sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes.. viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills
Well lol I just realized workers cannot outrun SM o.o so that is interesting. I guess you could go for that, but I guess ideally you would want to fire it as soon as they pull, so that you are already in or close to 2 range meaning it will hit them no matter what (and so he wouldn't have enough time to split). If he doesn't pull then the turrets will keep killing probes then i guess.
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On December 09 2011 14:23 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 12:56 GorE_ wrote:On December 09 2011 06:34 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 09 2011 05:59 GorE_ wrote:
Has anyone tried to HSM mineral lines?
Seems to me like 2 missiles would just almost instakill a mineral line or am i wrong?
Cheers
Nate It will deal a lot of splash but not kill everything. It depends where the SM hits the probe though, but it's pretty hard to time it to hit a probe that's in the middle. But if the mineral patches are grouped into 3 2 and 3 like they usually are, it is very easy to SM the two patches of 3 where there are a good number of probes stacked up. Sometimes just putting down turrets to stop mining might be better though. ok then... what about when they are running away? so lets say you drop an auto turret, as soon as they start to run throw out a HSM in the middle somewhere... sure if they are super awesome and can split like marineking they are going to be able to lessen the damage... if they can't however... goodbye probes.. viable? maybe not.. but worth trying for the possibility of heaps of probe kills Well lol I just realized workers cannot outrun SM o.o so that is interesting. I guess you could go for that, but I guess ideally you would want to fire it as soon as they pull, so that you are already in or close to 2 range meaning it will hit them no matter what (and so he wouldn't have enough time to split). If he doesn't pull then the turrets will keep killing probes then i guess.
so there's a challenge for the thread...
give it a go.. i will be...
see if we can get some replays of it.
even if you use the banshee to make them run, position the raven off to the side where they will run to the natural... and bombs away...
i'm optimistic
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EPT
