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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On December 02 2011 03:37 k!llua wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:30 Blazinghand wrote:On December 02 2011 03:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote:
Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional). You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it. Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time. 6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot). The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
True, but an alternative strategy is to build a bunker, and not waste mining time, resources, and defender's advantage in flying to the low-ground.
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On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me? I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction. Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know.  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/335617/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay
Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs.
He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that.
A couple pointers:
1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time.
2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes.
3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak.
4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around.
5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce.
6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
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On December 02 2011 04:29 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me? I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction. Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/335617/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs. He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that. A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time. 2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes. 3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak. 4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around. 5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce. 6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
Good analysis, thanks haha
As for in base 2 gate proxy, another way to counter it (depends on map and position of gates) you can lift your rax and start walling off the 2 gates with ebays or bunkers or a 2nd rax or a combination so the zealots are trapped inside.
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On December 02 2011 03:37 k!llua wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 03:30 Blazinghand wrote:On December 02 2011 03:19 iAmJeffReY wrote:On December 02 2011 03:16 k!llua wrote:
Re. counter to 2 gate in-base proxy:
Complete the wall-off at your ramp ASAP and lift your main to your natural. Rally marines towards the natural (instead of above the ramp). Shoot zealots as they wail upon your supply depots uselessly (because you'll be repairing the supply depots faster than he can attack them).
BM opponent for good measure (optional). You have such little surface area to repair. If he just waits for 6+ zeals, I feel he can brute down a depot before you can do a thing about it. Yeah honestly just make a bunker near your buildings / min line, and micro your scvs against the zealots until your marine pops. Flying to the lowground costs a lot of mining time. 6+ zealots can't all attack one supply depot at a time if it's built into a standard wall (depot/barracks/depot). The most that can attack is 3, maybe 4. 3 SCVs can outrepair that fairly easily, especially since you'll have an increasing number of marines wailing on them the entire time.
...he's on top of the ramp. You're on the bottom. You're in the choke. He has the ENTIRE surface area. I don't think you can get 3 scvs to repair the depot.
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On December 02 2011 04:29 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me? I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction. Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/335617/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs. He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that. A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time. 2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes. 3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak. 4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around. 5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce. 6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd.
Thanks. 
I'll be sure to review all of this a couple of times. Question though; why not wait for the 2nd Banshee before harass if cloak finishes right when the 2nd one pops out?
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this guide is turning out amazing
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On December 02 2011 07:34 Zergrusher wrote:
this guide is turning out amazing
This guide IS amazing! Always remember to not attack into him if he's attacking you(well you can if your heavily outnumbering him).
Just go and kill his bases instead. Also, if he's going early phoenix, be greedy with taking bases!
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i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
ill get some replays asap posted
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On December 02 2011 07:19 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 04:29 RoboBob wrote:On December 02 2011 01:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Yoshi Kirishima what do I do if the Protoss (gold player vs gold me) is really aggressive with mass stalkers + some zealots to tank + a LOT of observers and just overwhelms me? I know doing this build gives us a supply disadvantage earlier on because of all the expanding and high teching... so what do I do? I tried to snipe his observers, but he always had at least 3 on the field, and probably 10 total. I know people will tell me to "make more stuff", "work on your macro", or "be faster", but I really need some direction. Yoshi if you ever get a chance to review my replay let me know. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/335617/Metalopolis (7).SC2Replay Actually if you look at the replay, he had very few obs at your base. For most of the game he only had one observer there. In his first push he ran the only obs into your turret, and in the second push you successful killed the only obs. He only got a 2 obs at your nat by the 16 minute mark. The other 3 obs were all stationed inside his base. Sure at the very end he sent all the obs to your nat, but the game was over long before that. A couple pointers: 1. Keep pumping Marines until your 3rd+4th is secure. Your bunkers were empty for much of the time. 2. Don't wait for the second Banshee to harass, do it with the first one. You don't need to ram the Banshees towards the main mineral line if the spawns are bad (like that game). It's just as good to pick off pylons at the edge of the base instead. It's more important to keep your Banshees alive than kill a couple Probes. 3. Remember to uncloak your Banshees after you escape the enemy base. You could've repelled the early pressure much more quickly if those Banshees had enough energy to cloak. 4. Don't suicide your Vikings into Stalkers just to kill an Obs. He could always be hiding another Obs behind that one. When you have PF+Turrets you want to force the Stalker+Obs to attack into you, not the other way around. 5. Repair is your friend! Everything out of the Starport takes forever to build, so you really don't want to lose them. You should be repairing everything after every skirmish. It's not a bad idea to pull all the mineral mining SCVs at your nat, turn on auto-repair and a-move because they will absorb Stalker shots and repair your units at the same time. Losing SCVs with this build is not a big deal because you need so few minerals and get so many CCs so quickly that they're easy to reproduce. 6. Prioritize getting gas at your expos over anything else. I think the main thing that lost you that game was that you never put workers in geysers at your third. The other big "macro problem" (I know you didn't want advice on macro but it is really important) is your number of production facilities. You want 2 Starports with tech labs per base. You were kinda slow on adding Starports #3 and 4, and unfortunately you could never afford #5 or 6 because you didn't have guys in gas at your 3rd. Thanks. I'll be sure to review all of this a couple of times. Question though; why not wait for the 2nd Banshee before harass if cloak finishes right when the 2nd one pops out?
There's a couple reasons.
1. 95% of Protoss will go Robo->Obs after seeing a 13 gas from us, so the Cloak is not going to very useful on offense. He's gonna have an Obs there. Cloak is primarily a defensive weapon in TvP. You won't be able to find and kill all the Obs hiding inside his base. But you *can* find and kill the 1-2 Obs he sends with his army. And even if he doesn't have an Obs in his base, there's really no reason to wait for Banshee#2, because Banshee#1 is untouchable anyway.
2. When you attack with the first Banshee, the P doesn't necessarily know that there's a second one coming. If they send just 2-3 Stalkers to deal with Banshee#1, and then Banshee#2 shows up, you get a Stalker kill for free.
3. If the opponent is doing some kind of early gateway pressure, you want Banshee#1 to be in their face to make them consider turning around (or at least warp in units at home instead of inside your base). If they're defending against your Banshee harass, then they're not busting up your ramp. That way, just in case there is any early gateway pressure, Banshee#1 can buy time for Banshee #2 to fly back to base to help with defense.
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On December 02 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote:
i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
ill get some replays asap posted
omg this sounds sooo sexy :D please do!
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On December 02 2011 08:11 roymarthyup wrote:
i think ive found a really good opening build TvP that lets you go sky terran without needing a fast PF or stuff like that
its a 1rax expand build but you build the expand in your base, and using your single barracks you can make 8 marines and 2 bunkers at your choke before a 4gate or 3gate voidray attack can hit you. Based on what you scout you may not need to make the bunkers but pretty much anything thats not sub 6 minute nexus should require the bunkers since you are just making marines out of 1rax for early defense. and then as you are flying out your expansion at 7minutes you will have a raven to be safe against DT's and you will have 2ports to crank out banshees plus 2 raxes for marines and the factory can make hellions
ill get some replays asap posted
That sounds really interesting, but suicidal. 1 Rax FE straight into Starport with the first unit being a Raven?
What units would you have to defend against any kind of one base play that circumvents your Bunkers? Stargate, Blink, Warp Prism, Colossi...all of that tech can proxied outside of the P's base so you don't know its coming. You can't tell exactly whats coming on gas+chrono alone. And I don't see how you can afford to scan with that much spending on infrastructure and economy.
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http://drop.sc/67411
That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap.
Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again!
Less bloggy and more relevant:
It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me.
Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly.
I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox?
The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it.
Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query.
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Most of the pictures(near the bottom) don't work 
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On December 03 2011 04:48 Ironsights wrote:http://drop.sc/67411That replay is a victory of mine, and I am posting it as a big THANK YOU to the op for suggesting this. I have had a lot of luck with air in TvT but never figured it viable given that stalkers, templar, and phoenix all seem to tear air up and observers are dirt cheap. Boy, was I wrong. I am having GREAT success with this so far, and am finally breaking that losing to protoss slump. thanks again! Less bloggy and more relevant: It seems to me that many of the wins I am getting are because of the PFs. The game above is that way too. I feel like I shoudl have lost in the middle, but the Protoss kept suiciding templar trying to storm the scvs repairing the PFs. This meant the loss of an expo for me, but he lost numerous templar to do it, meaning it was worth it for me. Another protoss went mass voids, and when I asked why he didn't get phoenix, he said it was because he wanted somethign that attacked the PFs directly. I know I am only playing at a gold level these days, so what I am wondering is this: is this strategy actually viable, or is it only winning right now because its unorthodox? The reason I want to know is because I basically suck and don't have huge amounts of time to game, and dont want to spend too much time perfecting a build that will be obsolete as soon as the metagame so much as looks at it. Either way, thanks OP for this guide and thanks to anyone that answers my query.
It works at Korean GM (the composition and general concepts, not necessarily this build order), so yes it does work. Whether or not it's "efficient" to practice TvP with this style is up to debate (is it harder or easier than MMM VG?)
But in the end, it's all subjective, and there's always a bonus to playing styles and using strategies that are less common. It'll ultimately depend upon you.
So if what you are asking is, "is there a counter or something that just makes this not work if the opponent knows how to deal with it?"
Nope!
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the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
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On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin.
That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic.
As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
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On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it.
just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
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On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play.
Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs...
Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash.
Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run.
On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD
I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ).
You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is.
Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units.
It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
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On December 03 2011 07:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play. Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs... Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash. Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run. Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ). You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is. Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units. It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units.
Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
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On December 03 2011 12:59 Drizzt3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2011 07:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 03 2011 05:56 Drizzt3 wrote:
the problem is that phoenixes kind of rape terran air (except maybe like battlecruisers, which get raped by void rays and are practically impossible to get enough of to make a difference anyway). vikings are terrible at killing phoenixes, so your only hope of killing mass phoenix with this style is by hitting them with good Seeker missiles, but phoenixes are so fast he can outrun them if the protoss is good and micros well. also, with phoenixes he has plenty of spare minerals, and thus can make enough charge zealots to rape any marines or thors you might have, which are the only ground units terran has that are actually good at killing phoenixes. you mentioned that his phoenixes would have to run away then reengage your vikings so you could beat him in a micro battle with superior range, but since phoenixes are so fast and shoot while moving, you don't actually have to run in the opposite direction, you can simply fly around, still shooting the vikings most of the time but evading the Seeker missles. also, if he makes a couple high templars your ravens die instantly to feedback. however, I can see this raping protosses who insist on going mass blink stalkers with observers and maybe high templar support because they don't know how to play. Well thing is phoenixes really don't rape terran air, and BCs are not impossible to get "enough of", and you forget that if he gets void rays you can make more vikings instead of BCs... Maybe if he's MC and he's microing really well and making sure his phoenixes don't decellerate. Either way he will have to spend too much focus and won't be able to macro in that time. Just 1 seeker missile will cause him to have to focus on the battle the whole time until all the vikings are dead... if any of his phoenixes come 2 range too close (and thus in the range of SM) then I doubt you can split your phoenixes to stop the splash. Not to be harsh but I think you really don't have enough knowledge about this style. If you disagree with me, you'll have to show some replays or such as stated by the Strategy Forum Guidelines. Vikings definitely beat Phoenixes, especially in the long run. On December 03 2011 06:46 Drizzt3 wrote:On December 03 2011 06:24 SKSmokes wrote:On December 01 2011 01:42 Chronald wrote:
GAH the fact that terran can lift their buildings is the only reason a strat like this is good at all.
Without that you would just get into a base race and lose every time. Since that can't happen Protoss can't counter attack you and has to sit and deal with the air units. Protoss can't produce enough air units in time (even blink stalkers) to deal with mass banshee.
I call this the scumbag terran build, aka build air dominance and then list off buildings. You can't lose the game... Sweet design Dustin. That's like saying the only reason an X-gate push is good for protoss is because of the warp gate mechanic or the only reason the 300 food push is good on Zerg is because of the larva inject mechanic. As for the OP, any tips on the raven/viking/banshee micro vs observer/stalker micro when PDD isn't ready? Are all 3 on separate hotkeys? I seem to misclick a lot, and I feel like I end up sustaining too many losses on it. just target his observers with your vikings, they're small, but not very hard to kill, and banshees aren't exactly bad against stalkers even without PDD I use them all on 3 different hotkeys yes. Sometimes my fourth will be 1-2 banshees with or without 1 raven and 1-2 vikings, as a harassing group ( I just a-click this group since i can't pay attention to everything ofc and since, in small raiding groups, you don't need to worry so much about having each unit type on a specific hotkey ). You mention misclicking, can you elaborate? Usually it is just best to run away, even if he is able to blink up and snipe some units. But really you should be able to know where his army is and/or if it could be coming, if you don't know where it is. Well, especially if you don't have PDD ready, then get out of there. If he catches you by surprise, then make sure you know where his army is next time and be aware of if you can escape fast enough without losing many units. It's not so simple as targeting his observers with the vikings, like i said in the guide all they need to do is bring an observer from nearby that you didn't see and then all a sudden you have to be very careful of sniping observers with vikings. Banshees aren't bad but you definitely don't want to be trading armies until you have enough of an econ lead and enough production to maintain a large army (preferably 200 food). Plus he asked how to micro, not what to do... I think it's fairly obvious that Vikings should and can attack the Observers since there's no other air units. Yeah you're right phoenixes are actually terrible vs vikings. All the pro terrans should listen to your advice and take up this pure air masterpiece strategy in TvP! or maybe you could pull your head out of your ass long enough to understand why NO ONE GOOD DOES THIS ON A REGULAR BASIS.
Argument by Authority is the stupidest type of argument. The reason why MMMVG is the standard is because it has no blind counters. All a P needs to do to counter this build is gas steal and then follow up with a 1 base push that bypasses bunkers. So if a pro player becomes known for going Sky all the time, its easy to deny them going Sky and force them to play games they're less comfortable with.
That doesn't mean Sky TvP is worthless. It just means its more suited for a niche build instead of a standard of play.
PS: You're waaay off on Phoenix vs Vikings, Terran air armor upgrades kill all P air because all P air has fast attacks that apply armor many times.
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