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[G/D] Reactive Terran Air TvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 14:17:15
May 05 2011 15:38 GMT
#1
Introduction
Hey I'm currently Platinum on ladder but I recently came second in a tournament in which I beat numerous diamond players and a Grandmaster protoss with the build presented in this thread (see replays section for the Grandmaster game).

This build primarily makes use of the amazing synergy of cloaked banshees supported by ravens and vikings in TvP. PDD and sniping observers makes this composition a nightmare for protoss to deal with and straight up kills protoss who just blindly make collossi. Also Hellions and marines are used as a mineral sink, for early defense and scouting throughout the game.

The Gameplan
The overall game plan is to be solid versus heavy early pressure and then use the tech advantage of going 1-1-2 to secure an expansion and start putting pressure back on your opponent. During the mid-game the plan is to harass and scout with blue flame hellions and mass a "Terran deathball" of marines, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees, ravens and vikings of which the ratio of units depends on scouting info obtained. Once the deathball is reasonably strong you start denying the opponents third bases and if the opponent doesn't have the right unit composition to match you, then you can straight up go and kill him.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
10 supply
12 barracks
13 gas
15 OC
16 marine, constant marine production
16 supply
(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making scvs nonstop)
factory at 100gas
2nd gas right after factory is built
Starport as soon as factory is finished
1x Hellion when factory is finished
Scout with hellion, scan if the hellion doesn't get up the ramp and build bunker if needed
2nd Starport at next 100gas
From here on build depending on scouting information


Responses to Protoss Builds
+ Show Spoiler +
4gate: Build a bunker, keep marine and hellion production up, pull a handful of scvs for repair and build up some banshees and research cloak. When he backs off or you feel you have enough marines and hellions, cut marine/hellion production briefly and get a cc up in base. Cloaked banshees can just straight up win the game but you'll also have a big economic lead so you pretty much have the game won.

3gate Robo: Pretty much the same response as with the 4gate but I prefer to follow up with blue flame hellion harass after expanding as they will have observers for cloak. They won't have as many stalkers compared to the 4gate so you can also just go and kill them with the marines/hellions/viking/raven/banshees once you have banshees and enough energy for one or two PDDs.

3gate Stargate: This is a lot easier to hold with the current build than previously as you won't need as many vikings. Once scouted make sure you have your bunker up, build a couple vikings and patrol the cliffs of your base where they could warp up using a pylon and void ray vision. Pull a handful of scvs for repair and target fire the voidrays down when they attack. Research cloak and once your safe cut marine/hellion production to get a cc up in base.

DT rush: Build a raven and even if it is hidden you should get a raven out if you don't see some all-in coming to start saving energy up. Pretty much it is an instant win if they DT rush as you can expo safely, get cloak and easily win.

3 Gate blink stalker: Probably the hardest to hold, particularly if proxied and you don't scout it. If scouted, make sure you have a bunker up and keep up marine/hellion production and build banshees and pull a lot of scvs to repair. Try to make him fight near your bunker because they will kite your marines all day otherwise, once you've defended research cloak and cut marine/hellion production so you can expo. If unscouted then pull all your scvs and fight near the bunker, if you were making a raven then cancel it and make banshees, also build marines and hellions.

Any FE: If you scout a FE of any sort with your hellion then expo yourself by cutting marine production briefly then depending on whether they have detection or not tech to cloak or blue flame for harass. Stay active with scouting and show them how op terran is lategame.


Mid-Game Production
+ Show Spoiler +
Once you take your 2nd base you will want your 3rd and 4th gas quickly so that you can get a third starport up, two armories for double air upgrades and so that you can get blue flame and cloak if you haven't already. Whether you reactor or tech lab your third starport depends on what the scouting info you have, from hellions, banshee harass or viking flybys, on the protoss. By this point minerals aren't so important so if they're blocking all your scouting, don't hesitate to scan.

The biggest things you are looking for when scouting in regards to production are stargates and a Templar archives. With stargate tech, you simply need to get more vikings into your composition, using one of your starports with a reactor is usually enough unless you miss the stargate for a while and need to pump out a lot of vikings to catch up, in which case u switch to all viking production for a bit. If Templar archives are scouted or even if you scout a twilight council, you should to engage soon whilst dropping a ghost academy and perhaps a second barracks for ghost production, see the Mid-Late Game engagements section for dealing with armies with HT in them.

Past two base you basically just want to get as much gas as you can to add more starports and tech to BCs if you like. However I find that the only time I get BCs is as a diss because they are not as mobile as the rest of the army and vikings and banshees deal with ground and air much better. Also past two base you may want to get more factories for more blue flame hellions as a mineral sink.


Mid-Late Game Engagements
+ Show Spoiler +
You're composition should consist of marines, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees, ravens and vikings(the amount of which depends on if they went into stargate tech) by the mid game.

When engaging a gateway/stargate/robo protoss army you essentially want to throw down some PDDs right before engaging and then pretty much let your vikings and ravens clear out any observers and then your cloaked banshees will force a retreat or they will sac their whole army. If they retreat you can kill a lot of them with your fast banshees and unless they have a lot of cannons then you can press the advantage by sniping any newly created observers. These engagements you should win easily and require little micro apart from making sure your pdds are well placed and your ravens don't get sniped.

When engaging a protoss army with high templar(a lot easier now with the energy upgrade gone) the micro really decides the battle. If you scout them going high templar tech then you should attack fairly soon before they have a ridiculous amount of storms to use on your army. Preventing heavy feedback damage is easy, precloak your banshees to keep their energy low and ensure you dump your PDDs before engaging. Storms are the real worry, I usually pre split my banshees before engaging and then during the engagement move small groups of them at a time. Without the amulet you can now follow up this attack with an attack on their main without having to worry about warp in storms. If the game continues on however for whatever reason you will need ghosts for emp.


Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Grandmaster Protoss 1

5th round of the tournament I get pitted against a grandmaster protoss and he responds to my build by doing pheonix harass and building up collossi, when we engage I crush his army and take the game.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 1

The first round of the tournament in which there was a lot of lag for both players, theres a couple big engagements and my composition crushes his army in the final engagement.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Grandmaster Protoss 2

A practice match against a grandmaster protoss and he gets pretty pissed off when he loses lol.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 2

The protoss goes double stargate carrier.... XD


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 3

Practice match verse a diamond protoss friend of mine.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 4

Another practice match against my diamond protoss friend.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 5

I hold off a 3gate proxy stargate even though I didn't scout the proxy.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 6

The protoss does a 2gate pheonix expo.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 7

Diamond toss goes chargelots vs air...


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 8

Diamond toss does a 3gate fe with some pressure.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 9

Diamond toss goes for a pheonix/gateway composition but still gets stomped


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Platinum Protoss 1

2nd round of the tournament versus a friend of mine from Ascension Gaming, who knew my build but didn't get high templar fast enough to stop me.


Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Bronze Protoss 1

3rd round somehow a bronze player has made it that far. He heard of the games I had played earlier in the tournament and did a hilarious fast forge, twilight council, 1gate build so i rallied units to his base and won.


(I had to manually upload these so let me know if there is any errors.)


This is my first guide, so if I'm missing anything or I could improve something, please let me know.
Life is cruel and then you die.
NagatoYuki
Profile Joined April 2011
12 Posts
May 05 2011 16:02 GMT
#2
A sound plan, Will give this strategy a shot and come back to you with feedback's! ( and hopefully some replays )
"Wait... If your here? Then who's Guarding the Base?" ITS OK PLANETARY FORTRESS IS HERE!
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 05 2011 17:01 GMT
#3
On May 06 2011 01:02 NagatoYuki wrote:
A sound plan, Will give this strategy a shot and come back to you with feedback's! ( and hopefully some replays )


Good luck and have fun! Replays would be awesome.
Life is cruel and then you die.
JonmNOR
Profile Joined February 2011
Norway5 Posts
May 06 2011 07:41 GMT
#4
Sounds like a decent strategy.
I'll watch the replays when i can and post some more feedback later.
If i like what i see, ill give it some tries as well, because it sounds like a fun build to use once in a while besides the normal Thor-based builds i usually use TvP.
FoFo
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands207 Posts
May 06 2011 08:25 GMT
#5
the replay against the grandmaster player is really funny, just for that toss deathball stomping i'm definitly gonna try this strat
"we must avoid balancing SC2 by making everything suck equally hard."
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 06 2011 11:11 GMT
#6
On May 06 2011 17:25 FoFo wrote:
the replay against the grandmaster player is really funny, just for that toss deathball stomping i'm definitly gonna try this strat


Yep it feels good stomping Protoss deathballs, good luck with the strat!
Life is cruel and then you die.
orange7crush
Profile Joined January 2011
United States33 Posts
May 06 2011 15:21 GMT
#7
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
May 06 2011 15:42 GMT
#8
You've come a long way since your initial development of this build I'm impressed!

I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate different openers that transition into mass Air midgame to keep things mixed up in BoX matches. 1-1-2 was something I was playing around with but I opened much like the iEchoic version of the build. I like the Hellion drop better because you can get away with a lot of economic damage if you micro well and can take a fairly safe expansion with cloaked banshees and bunkers for defense.

What really gets me here is your incorporation of Hellions into the build. What is your reasoning behind this? If you are focused on Air, marines would be a much better mineral dump because they can help take out Stargate tech while Hellions will only overkill Zealots, a job that Banshees can do on their own just fine. I suppose they do well against HTs, but I would rather use Ghosts instead because they not only nullify HTs, but soften up the entire Protoss army at the same time.

You should always add a Raven or two to the army for the insane PDD synergy and detection as well.

Nice job stomping that GM Protoss ^_^

On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


Jinro's strategy against San looked much more similar to my build against Protoss. Aptly named the Anti-Colossus build for that reason
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
CursedFeanor
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada539 Posts
May 06 2011 15:50 GMT
#9
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well.

I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure...

I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
May 06 2011 15:54 GMT
#10
On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well.

I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure...

I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.


I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_>
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
CursedFeanor
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada539 Posts
May 06 2011 16:00 GMT
#11
On May 07 2011 00:54 Synystyr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well.

I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure...

I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.


I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_>


it would probably help indeed! I've read your thread before and it did help refine a couple of points for me... but I'm not sure I want to see the metagame change with this as protoss might become aware of the build and start playing adequately against it (which they aren't atm!). it's fun to enjoy easy wins at the moment.
Synystyr
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1446 Posts
May 06 2011 16:05 GMT
#12
On May 07 2011 01:00 CursedFeanor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 00:54 Synystyr wrote:
On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well.

I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure...

I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.


I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_>


it would probably help indeed! I've read your thread before and it did help refine a couple of points for me... but I'm not sure I want to see the metagame change with this as protoss might become aware of the build and start playing adequately against it (which they aren't atm!). it's fun to enjoy easy wins at the moment.


Heh I suppose, but I disagree with not changing the metagame. It doesn't let the game evolve and we'll only delay seeing new creative builds happen because we can take free wins from uneducated players. Metagaming is good, and it's what I've been doing against Protoss for 6 months via Mass Air, but I want to see it go mainstream so that Protoss can learn to play against it, new strategies are developed and SC2 gets better.

Anyways, Jinro does nearly the same things I've listed in my build except a little more greedily because he has better game sense, micro and skill than I do to pull of things like that. I would've liked to see better Raven movement from him instead of turrets to deny scouting but you can only do so much.
Sky Terran TvP V2.0: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355839
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 06 2011 16:15 GMT
#13
On May 07 2011 00:42 Synystyr wrote:
You've come a long way since your initial development of this build I'm impressed!

I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate different openers that transition into mass Air midgame to keep things mixed up in BoX matches. 1-1-2 was something I was playing around with but I opened much like the iEchoic version of the build. I like the Hellion drop better because you can get away with a lot of economic damage if you micro well and can take a fairly safe expansion with cloaked banshees and bunkers for defense.

What really gets me here is your incorporation of Hellions into the build. What is your reasoning behind this? If you are focused on Air, marines would be a much better mineral dump because they can help take out Stargate tech while Hellions will only overkill Zealots, a job that Banshees can do on their own just fine. I suppose they do well against HTs, but I would rather use Ghosts instead because they not only nullify HTs, but soften up the entire Protoss army at the same time.

You should always add a Raven or two to the army for the insane PDD synergy and detection as well.

Nice job stomping that GM Protoss ^_^

Show nested quote +
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.


Jinro's strategy against San looked much more similar to my build against Protoss. Aptly named the Anti-Colossus build for that reason


I was wondering if anyone would have read this and remembered my old refinement thread, thanks for noticing.

As for the reasoning behind hellions, primarily I love them for their scouting and the response they force from the protoss.

Nothing really compares to hellions in terms of scouting in TvP. They are cheap, incredibly fast and tank stalker damage reasonably well. I'd rather have one or two hellions forward to spot expansions and army movements than any other unit at my disposal.

The addition of blue flame forces protoss who would normally get away with 1 or 2 cannons or just observers per mineral versus banshee harass to make a lot more cannons or risk losing ridiculous amounts of probes. Also catching a line of transferring probes with a couple roaming hellions is just so juicy. :D

With marines I think their value as a mineral dump reduces as the game progresses in TvP and vikings with double upgrades alongside ravens is plenty of anti-air I find. In mid-game and onwards they just die to quickly and with protoss armor upgrades and gaurdian shield their dps becomes laughable. Getting upgrades to make them more useful seems like a waste of gas to me since I'm focusing on air. I'd much rather spend that gas on more starports, ghosts and air upgrades.

I was so excited when I saw Jinro pull that build off lol. I hope more world class terrans realise how awesome air is in TvP.
Life is cruel and then you die.
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 17 2011 09:25 GMT
#14
Updated with a lot more replays, mainly versus diamond protoss players and one versus a Grandmaster protoss. ^^
Life is cruel and then you die.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
May 17 2011 10:01 GMT
#15
This sounds a lot like iEchoic's 1/1/2 build, but it doesn't incorporate the hellion drop.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146518
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 17 2011 14:14 GMT
#16
On May 17 2011 19:01 mbr2321 wrote:
This sounds a lot like iEchoic's 1/1/2 build, but it doesn't incorporate the hellion drop.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146518


Yes it is pretty much the same openning but since in iEchoics version he goes for the hellion drop, your banshees and your expansion comes out later than in my version. Which makes you a bit weaker to protoss one base all ins and makes you reliant on the drop to even up the economy. It is a stylistic choice really in the end. That being said in my build I do do hellion harass and in many games mid-game blue flame hellion harass has won me games.

Also with iEchoics version there is less of an emphasis on raven/viking/banshee synergy and more of an emphasis on transitioning to bio with air support.
Life is cruel and then you die.
Mr_Kyo
Profile Joined November 2010
United States269 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-17 14:29:26
May 17 2011 14:26 GMT
#17
It took me a while to develop a transition to Sky Terran. Looking at your build order, I expect you to have problems with gateway-unit contain and 2base colossas timing push. I don't recommend double armory; better to go 4port. I'm glad others are attempting sky terran.

--An aside: everyone is referencing Jinro's build. I think it was a horrible display of an air build. He got lucky that Sans didn't have an ob. He only showed what banshees can do in a head on attack.
JayLN
Profile Joined May 2011
Germany25 Posts
May 17 2011 14:54 GMT
#18
I am very interested in those new style builds and will definetly give it a try. I think if the P goes for HTs instead of the colossus tech or mass gateway units you might be in a ****load of trouble due to feedback and some storms.
Apologize for playing that Race!
Devlawl
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia122 Posts
May 17 2011 15:06 GMT
#19
On May 17 2011 23:26 Mr_Kyo wrote:
It took me a while to develop a transition to Sky Terran. Looking at your build order, I expect you to have problems with gateway-unit contain and 2base colossas timing push. I don't recommend double armory; better to go 4port. I'm glad others are attempting sky terran.

--An aside: everyone is referencing Jinro's build. I think it was a horrible display of an air build. He got lucky that Sans didn't have an ob. He only showed what banshees can do in a head on attack.


I don't have any issues with gateway-unit contains like 3gate pressure, which I assume you are talking about, as seen in a few of my replays, particularly Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 8.

As for 2base collossus pushes, they are laughably easy to hold with mass banshee since they won't be able to afford as many stalkers. Often times I can just counter attack and win the game from there.

The reasoning behind going double armory is that the armour upgrades help immensely due to the fast attack speed of pheonix and stalkers and the attack upgrades nullifies any armor upgrades the protoss goes for.

I thought Sans had an obs but it got sniped by jinro O.o
Life is cruel and then you die.
lorkac
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2297 Posts
May 18 2011 00:15 GMT
#20
Banshee 24 damage 150m 100g
2stalkers 20 damage 250m 100g

2marines+banshee 36 damage 250m 100g
2stalkers 20 damage 250m 100g

yum yum yum
By the truth we are undone. Life is a dream. Tis waking that kills us. He who robs us of our dreams robs us of our life --Orlando: A Biography
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