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Introduction
Hey I'm currently Platinum on ladder but I recently came second in a tournament in which I beat numerous diamond players and a Grandmaster protoss with the build presented in this thread (see replays section for the Grandmaster game).
This build primarily makes use of the amazing synergy of cloaked banshees supported by ravens and vikings in TvP. PDD and sniping observers makes this composition a nightmare for protoss to deal with and straight up kills protoss who just blindly make collossi. Also Hellions and marines are used as a mineral sink, for early defense and scouting throughout the game.
The Gameplan
The overall game plan is to be solid versus heavy early pressure and then use the tech advantage of going 1-1-2 to secure an expansion and start putting pressure back on your opponent. During the mid-game the plan is to harass and scout with blue flame hellions and mass a "Terran deathball" of marines, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees, ravens and vikings of which the ratio of units depends on scouting info obtained. Once the deathball is reasonably strong you start denying the opponents third bases and if the opponent doesn't have the right unit composition to match you, then you can straight up go and kill him.
Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +10 supply
12 barracks
13 gas
15 OC
16 marine, constant marine production
16 supply
(supply counts discontinued from here - keep making scvs nonstop)
factory at 100gas
2nd gas right after factory is built
Starport as soon as factory is finished
1x Hellion when factory is finished
Scout with hellion, scan if the hellion doesn't get up the ramp and build bunker if needed
2nd Starport at next 100gas
From here on build depending on scouting information
Responses to Protoss Builds
+ Show Spoiler +4gate: Build a bunker, keep marine and hellion production up, pull a handful of scvs for repair and build up some banshees and research cloak. When he backs off or you feel you have enough marines and hellions, cut marine/hellion production briefly and get a cc up in base. Cloaked banshees can just straight up win the game but you'll also have a big economic lead so you pretty much have the game won. 3gate Robo: Pretty much the same response as with the 4gate but I prefer to follow up with blue flame hellion harass after expanding as they will have observers for cloak. They won't have as many stalkers compared to the 4gate so you can also just go and kill them with the marines/hellions/viking/raven/banshees once you have banshees and enough energy for one or two PDDs. 3gate Stargate: This is a lot easier to hold with the current build than previously as you won't need as many vikings. Once scouted make sure you have your bunker up, build a couple vikings and patrol the cliffs of your base where they could warp up using a pylon and void ray vision. Pull a handful of scvs for repair and target fire the voidrays down when they attack. Research cloak and once your safe cut marine/hellion production to get a cc up in base. DT rush: Build a raven and even if it is hidden you should get a raven out if you don't see some all-in coming to start saving energy up. Pretty much it is an instant win if they DT rush as you can expo safely, get cloak and easily win. 3 Gate blink stalker: Probably the hardest to hold, particularly if proxied and you don't scout it. If scouted, make sure you have a bunker up and keep up marine/hellion production and build banshees and pull a lot of scvs to repair. Try to make him fight near your bunker because they will kite your marines all day otherwise, once you've defended research cloak and cut marine/hellion production so you can expo. If unscouted then pull all your scvs and fight near the bunker, if you were making a raven then cancel it and make banshees, also build marines and hellions. Any FE: If you scout a FE of any sort with your hellion then expo yourself by cutting marine production briefly then depending on whether they have detection or not tech to cloak or blue flame for harass. Stay active with scouting and show them how op terran is lategame. 
Mid-Game Production
+ Show Spoiler +Once you take your 2nd base you will want your 3rd and 4th gas quickly so that you can get a third starport up, two armories for double air upgrades and so that you can get blue flame and cloak if you haven't already. Whether you reactor or tech lab your third starport depends on what the scouting info you have, from hellions, banshee harass or viking flybys, on the protoss. By this point minerals aren't so important so if they're blocking all your scouting, don't hesitate to scan.
The biggest things you are looking for when scouting in regards to production are stargates and a Templar archives. With stargate tech, you simply need to get more vikings into your composition, using one of your starports with a reactor is usually enough unless you miss the stargate for a while and need to pump out a lot of vikings to catch up, in which case u switch to all viking production for a bit. If Templar archives are scouted or even if you scout a twilight council, you should to engage soon whilst dropping a ghost academy and perhaps a second barracks for ghost production, see the Mid-Late Game engagements section for dealing with armies with HT in them.
Past two base you basically just want to get as much gas as you can to add more starports and tech to BCs if you like. However I find that the only time I get BCs is as a diss because they are not as mobile as the rest of the army and vikings and banshees deal with ground and air much better. Also past two base you may want to get more factories for more blue flame hellions as a mineral sink.
Mid-Late Game Engagements
+ Show Spoiler +You're composition should consist of marines, blue flame hellions, cloaked banshees, ravens and vikings(the amount of which depends on if they went into stargate tech) by the mid game.
When engaging a gateway/stargate/robo protoss army you essentially want to throw down some PDDs right before engaging and then pretty much let your vikings and ravens clear out any observers and then your cloaked banshees will force a retreat or they will sac their whole army. If they retreat you can kill a lot of them with your fast banshees and unless they have a lot of cannons then you can press the advantage by sniping any newly created observers. These engagements you should win easily and require little micro apart from making sure your pdds are well placed and your ravens don't get sniped.
When engaging a protoss army with high templar(a lot easier now with the energy upgrade gone) the micro really decides the battle. If you scout them going high templar tech then you should attack fairly soon before they have a ridiculous amount of storms to use on your army. Preventing heavy feedback damage is easy, precloak your banshees to keep their energy low and ensure you dump your PDDs before engaging. Storms are the real worry, I usually pre split my banshees before engaging and then during the engagement move small groups of them at a time. Without the amulet you can now follow up this attack with an attack on their main without having to worry about warp in storms. If the game continues on however for whatever reason you will need ghosts for emp.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my first guide, so if I'm missing anything or I could improve something, please let me know.
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A sound plan, Will give this strategy a shot and come back to you with feedback's! ( and hopefully some replays )
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On May 06 2011 01:02 NagatoYuki wrote:
A sound plan, Will give this strategy a shot and come back to you with feedback's! ( and hopefully some replays )
Good luck and have fun! Replays would be awesome.
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Sounds like a decent strategy.
I'll watch the replays when i can and post some more feedback later.
If i like what i see, ill give it some tries as well, because it sounds like a fun build to use once in a while besides the normal Thor-based builds i usually use TvP.
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the replay against the grandmaster player is really funny, just for that toss deathball stomping i'm definitly gonna try this strat
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On May 06 2011 17:25 FoFo wrote:
the replay against the grandmaster player is really funny, just for that toss deathball stomping i'm definitly gonna try this strat
Yep it feels good stomping Protoss deathballs, good luck with the strat!
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Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.
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You've come a long way since your initial development of this build I'm impressed!
I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate different openers that transition into mass Air midgame to keep things mixed up in BoX matches. 1-1-2 was something I was playing around with but I opened much like the iEchoic version of the build. I like the Hellion drop better because you can get away with a lot of economic damage if you micro well and can take a fairly safe expansion with cloaked banshees and bunkers for defense.
What really gets me here is your incorporation of Hellions into the build. What is your reasoning behind this? If you are focused on Air, marines would be a much better mineral dump because they can help take out Stargate tech while Hellions will only overkill Zealots, a job that Banshees can do on their own just fine. I suppose they do well against HTs, but I would rather use Ghosts instead because they not only nullify HTs, but soften up the entire Protoss army at the same time.
You should always add a Raven or two to the army for the insane PDD synergy and detection as well.
Nice job stomping that GM Protoss ^_^
On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.
Jinro's strategy against San looked much more similar to my build against Protoss. Aptly named the Anti-Colossus build for that reason
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On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus.
lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines!  I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well.
I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure...
I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.
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On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus. lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well. I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure... I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play.
I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_>
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On May 07 2011 00:54 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus. lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well. I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure... I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play. I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_>
it would probably help indeed!  I've read your thread before and it did help refine a couple of points for me... but I'm not sure I want to see the metagame change with this as protoss might become aware of the build and start playing adequately against it (which they aren't atm!). it's fun to enjoy easy wins at the moment. 
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On May 07 2011 01:00 CursedFeanor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:54 Synystyr wrote:On May 07 2011 00:50 CursedFeanor wrote:On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus. lol! I was about to post something exactly along those lines! I've based my current TvP on this precise game as well and it does work quite well. I like the idea to mix in some blue flame helions depending on the situation, I might try this out as well. I think the main difference between the build proposed here and what Jinro did is that Jinro pumped a lot of barracks (4 I think), before quickly expending behind lots of bunkers, and THEN tech up to build 3 starports at once and start the air domination. This approach is maybe a little safer against early aggression, not sure... I nice touch he did was to surround the starports with a couple of turrets to repel observers and thus adding the element of surprise for the protoss who might be thrown off guard by the unexpected air play. I think I need to change the title of my thread to "Jinro's TvP Air build" or something so people can finally catch on and we can get that metagame change rolling >_> it would probably help indeed! I've read your thread before and it did help refine a couple of points for me... but I'm not sure I want to see the metagame change with this as protoss might become aware of the build and start playing adequately against it (which they aren't atm!). it's fun to enjoy easy wins at the moment.
Heh I suppose, but I disagree with not changing the metagame. It doesn't let the game evolve and we'll only delay seeing new creative builds happen because we can take free wins from uneducated players. Metagaming is good, and it's what I've been doing against Protoss for 6 months via Mass Air, but I want to see it go mainstream so that Protoss can learn to play against it, new strategies are developed and SC2 gets better.
Anyways, Jinro does nearly the same things I've listed in my build except a little more greedily because he has better game sense, micro and skill than I do to pull of things like that. I would've liked to see better Raven movement from him instead of turrets to deny scouting but you can only do so much.
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On May 07 2011 00:42 Synystyr wrote:You've come a long way since your initial development of this build I'm impressed! I've been trying to figure out how to incorporate different openers that transition into mass Air midgame to keep things mixed up in BoX matches. 1-1-2 was something I was playing around with but I opened much like the iEchoic version of the build. I like the Hellion drop better because you can get away with a lot of economic damage if you micro well and can take a fairly safe expansion with cloaked banshees and bunkers for defense. What really gets me here is your incorporation of Hellions into the build. What is your reasoning behind this? If you are focused on Air, marines would be a much better mineral dump because they can help take out Stargate tech while Hellions will only overkill Zealots, a job that Banshees can do on their own just fine. I suppose they do well against HTs, but I would rather use Ghosts instead because they not only nullify HTs, but soften up the entire Protoss army at the same time. You should always add a Raven or two to the army for the insane PDD synergy and detection as well. Nice job stomping that GM Protoss ^_^ Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 00:21 orange7crush wrote:
Looks similar to Jinro's strategy against San in the latest GSL group stages. I've been fiddling around with air vs Toss lately as well and it really smashes Toss players that love their big Colossus. Jinro's strategy against San looked much more similar to my build against Protoss. Aptly named the Anti-Colossus build for that reason
I was wondering if anyone would have read this and remembered my old refinement thread, thanks for noticing.
As for the reasoning behind hellions, primarily I love them for their scouting and the response they force from the protoss.
Nothing really compares to hellions in terms of scouting in TvP. They are cheap, incredibly fast and tank stalker damage reasonably well. I'd rather have one or two hellions forward to spot expansions and army movements than any other unit at my disposal.
The addition of blue flame forces protoss who would normally get away with 1 or 2 cannons or just observers per mineral versus banshee harass to make a lot more cannons or risk losing ridiculous amounts of probes. Also catching a line of transferring probes with a couple roaming hellions is just so juicy. :D
With marines I think their value as a mineral dump reduces as the game progresses in TvP and vikings with double upgrades alongside ravens is plenty of anti-air I find. In mid-game and onwards they just die to quickly and with protoss armor upgrades and gaurdian shield their dps becomes laughable. Getting upgrades to make them more useful seems like a waste of gas to me since I'm focusing on air. I'd much rather spend that gas on more starports, ghosts and air upgrades.
I was so excited when I saw Jinro pull that build off lol. I hope more world class terrans realise how awesome air is in TvP.
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Updated with a lot more replays, mainly versus diamond protoss players and one versus a Grandmaster protoss. ^^
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Yes it is pretty much the same openning but since in iEchoics version he goes for the hellion drop, your banshees and your expansion comes out later than in my version. Which makes you a bit weaker to protoss one base all ins and makes you reliant on the drop to even up the economy. It is a stylistic choice really in the end. That being said in my build I do do hellion harass and in many games mid-game blue flame hellion harass has won me games.
Also with iEchoics version there is less of an emphasis on raven/viking/banshee synergy and more of an emphasis on transitioning to bio with air support.
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It took me a while to develop a transition to Sky Terran. Looking at your build order, I expect you to have problems with gateway-unit contain and 2base colossas timing push. I don't recommend double armory; better to go 4port. I'm glad others are attempting sky terran.
--An aside: everyone is referencing Jinro's build. I think it was a horrible display of an air build. He got lucky that Sans didn't have an ob. He only showed what banshees can do in a head on attack.
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I am very interested in those new style builds and will definetly give it a try. I think if the P goes for HTs instead of the colossus tech or mass gateway units you might be in a ****load of trouble due to feedback and some storms.
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On May 17 2011 23:26 Mr_Kyo wrote:
It took me a while to develop a transition to Sky Terran. Looking at your build order, I expect you to have problems with gateway-unit contain and 2base colossas timing push. I don't recommend double armory; better to go 4port. I'm glad others are attempting sky terran.
--An aside: everyone is referencing Jinro's build. I think it was a horrible display of an air build. He got lucky that Sans didn't have an ob. He only showed what banshees can do in a head on attack.
I don't have any issues with gateway-unit contains like 3gate pressure, which I assume you are talking about, as seen in a few of my replays, particularly Replay: Platinum Air Terran vs Diamond Protoss 8.
As for 2base collossus pushes, they are laughably easy to hold with mass banshee since they won't be able to afford as many stalkers. Often times I can just counter attack and win the game from there.
The reasoning behind going double armory is that the armour upgrades help immensely due to the fast attack speed of pheonix and stalkers and the attack upgrades nullifies any armor upgrades the protoss goes for.
I thought Sans had an obs but it got sniped by jinro O.o
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Banshee 24 damage 150m 100g
2stalkers 20 damage 250m 100g
2marines+banshee 36 damage 250m 100g
2stalkers 20 damage 250m 100g
yum yum yum
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How are people dealing with protoss players who go into heavy stargate play upon seeing your banshees? I'm finding it quite difficult to deal with- phoenixes are much faster than terran air, so they can always choose a good engagement, they lift off hellions and they don't care about banshees, and with a few cannons in their mineral lines they don't need to worry too much about observer sniping.
I've used thors with some success, but they slow me down quite a bit and negate one of T air's key strengths. I've also had mixed results with going for a bio transition and flooding him with marines- he doesn't have colossi so there's not much he can do. This seems rather inefficient overall, though.
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Sky Terran for the win!
Sky Terrans is really really good against Terran.
All the Protoss Anti Air is stopped by PDD. I don't think there are any units that can hit air and bypass the PDD.
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On May 18 2011 15:06 Velladin wrote:
All the Protoss Anti Air is stopped by PDD. I don't think there are any units that can hit air and bypass the PDD.
Sentry, carrier, void ray, archon, mothership are all unaffected by PDD.
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On May 17 2011 23:54 JayLN wrote:
I am very interested in those new style builds and will definetly give it a try. I think if the P goes for HTs instead of the colossus tech or mass gateway units you might be in a ****load of trouble due to feedback and some storms.
I did mention dealing with HT in my op. Essentially you want to be active in scouting for them goin towards that tech and attack before they have any out or very few out while throwing down a ghost academy as a safe gaurd.
When engaging high templar it is important to dump the energy of your banshees and ravens before engaging and also to spread your units to deal with storm.
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On May 18 2011 14:58 Tracil wrote:
How are people dealing with protoss players who go into heavy stargate play upon seeing your banshees? I'm finding it quite difficult to deal with- phoenixes are much faster than terran air, so they can always choose a good engagement, they lift off hellions and they don't care about banshees, and with a few cannons in their mineral lines they don't need to worry too much about observer sniping.
I've used thors with some success, but they slow me down quite a bit and negate one of T air's key strengths. I've also had mixed results with going for a bio transition and flooding him with marines- he doesn't have colossi so there's not much he can do. This seems rather inefficient overall, though.
I did cover dealing with stargate play in my op. All you need to do is to scout it then get a decent number of vikings out. Usually I have 3 starports on 2 base and I use two with tech lab for ravens and banshees and one with a reactor for vikings if I scout stargate play.
Check out the replays, a fair few of them have protoss going down the stargate route to counter me but they lose anyway. (the first one versus the grandmaster protoss is a good example.)
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OP, any new updates on the build?
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I've faced Sky Terrans few times. First time I was completely destroyed. I thought blink stalkers will do okay. How wrong i was...
Second time I went phoenix archon and charge-zealots as mineral sink. Also researched speed for observers. Phoenixes shut down any heavy banshee play. Just need to build more observers, they get sniped all the time.
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hey,
in 1v1 i do not have experience with this - even though i am dreaming about it since beta ^^.
just an idea:
in teamgames i often play like this. and when there is a lot of various anti air to deal with my bans/ravn i just put in some battlecruiser (in case i am not forced to produce vikings).
and it shouts down phoenix as a solutions since they dont do much damage to Bc.
(so if you are expanding to a second base u even dont need to build more starports )
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Dear Terrans:
Please stop spreading this strategy around. I've used this effectively on the ladder against GMs for the last 3 weeks, and the Protoss are starting to catch on. Don't help them.
Shhh
Keep it on DL, yo.
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Cosmos (http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/Cosmos) using that at Master / GrandMaster level (depending on server) with 100% win with this strategy. He usually FE before / While going to Air though.
He has a huge micro so when faced with HT he simply deals with them by splitting his banshees.
Protoss will eventually catch up, but anyway it will drive to more interesting games with more unit types used by both players.
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whether people think it's cheese or all-in, if a platinum player can beat 2 GM players, while GM toss players are aware that you have 2 techlab starports and lose to 13-15 min push, toss players should consider this is a potential threat and try to figure out ways to deal with this build and it's derivatives. I think using the robo to only make obs and building more gateway units, especially stalkers with only a few zealot mix would help. Toss should get a good stalker count so he can force PDD away from his base, and target fire ravens first, and then banshees(otherwise all the obs will die). +1 attack would be more useful when you see a banshee heavy play, and +1 armor for marine heavy play. If the terran chooses to attack after he takes the expo, he should go for a HT tech for feedback since he probably won't have enough time for storm. when the terran player incorporates tanks into his army, getting a couple of voidrays will help as he won't have much gas leftover for air
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Here's the funny thing about HT's as a counter to banshees.
If you get the advantage in the match and are ahead on food, you can deliberately waste your banshee's energy and just go for a massive engagement. It's a very, very unusual play, but if the Toss decides to go for mass feedback, he instantly loses.
(Why not try to abuse the advantage of the cloak, you ask? I'm starting to find that after the first few engagements as Sky Terran, you basically never get to a point where there isn't an observer or a few cannons ruining your day. If it's still around the 10-15 minute mark it might work, but in larger, 120-180 food battles, I've found it unpractical to try and snipe 2-3-4 observers mid-fight and focus instead on macro, laying down PDD and macroing.)
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Sky Terran is actually the reason I switched from Protoss to Zerg.
It's just so frustrating to deal with. It's difficult to scout unless you get an observer out if they proxy their starports and that requires a robo which in turn, makes your stargate later.
I just got so fed up with PvT banshee/raven/marine stuff that I ended up going to Zerg. Good thing I switched before it really caught on.
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On May 31 2011 02:03 k!llua wrote:
Here's the funny thing about HT's as a counter to banshees.
If you get the advantage in the match and are ahead on food, you can deliberately waste your banshee's energy and just go for a massive engagement. It's a very, very unusual play, but if the Toss decides to go for mass feedback, he instantly loses.
(Why not try to abuse the advantage of the cloak, you ask? I'm starting to find that after the first few engagements as Sky Terran, you basically never get to a point where there isn't an observer or a few cannons ruining your day. If it's still around the 10-15 minute mark it might work, but in larger, 120-180 food battles, I've found it unpractical to try and snipe 2-3-4 observers mid-fight and focus instead on macro, laying down PDD and macroing.)
yea just cloak>uncloak>cloak again to waste energy i guess?
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On May 31 2011 02:12 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:03 k!llua wrote:
Here's the funny thing about HT's as a counter to banshees.
If you get the advantage in the match and are ahead on food, you can deliberately waste your banshee's energy and just go for a massive engagement. It's a very, very unusual play, but if the Toss decides to go for mass feedback, he instantly loses.
(Why not try to abuse the advantage of the cloak, you ask? I'm starting to find that after the first few engagements as Sky Terran, you basically never get to a point where there isn't an observer or a few cannons ruining your day. If it's still around the 10-15 minute mark it might work, but in larger, 120-180 food battles, I've found it unpractical to try and snipe 2-3-4 observers mid-fight and focus instead on macro, laying down PDD and macroing.) yea just cloak>uncloak>cloak again to waste energy i guess?
Exactly, when I play I don't worry so much about feedback as I just dump my energy. However once they have storm and a decent number of HT it gets scary. I have had success with mixing in ghosts late-game but it is very hard to control emps, pdds and splitting your army in a massive near max conflict. I have won through the use of ghosts in late game but most of my games end essentially in the mid-game when I hit before HTs are up.
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On May 31 2011 02:12 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 02:03 k!llua wrote:
Here's the funny thing about HT's as a counter to banshees.
If you get the advantage in the match and are ahead on food, you can deliberately waste your banshee's energy and just go for a massive engagement. It's a very, very unusual play, but if the Toss decides to go for mass feedback, he instantly loses.
(Why not try to abuse the advantage of the cloak, you ask? I'm starting to find that after the first few engagements as Sky Terran, you basically never get to a point where there isn't an observer or a few cannons ruining your day. If it's still around the 10-15 minute mark it might work, but in larger, 120-180 food battles, I've found it unpractical to try and snipe 2-3-4 observers mid-fight and focus instead on macro, laying down PDD and macroing.) yea just cloak>uncloak>cloak again to waste energy i guess?
Pretty much, just set up outside the Protoss' natural and leave cloak on until it runs out. You could harass if you're prepared to send over a handful of banshees, but that could prompt the Protoss to break the contain, and in reality that's where you want the DPS since you have total control over the rest of the map.
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crud now i actually have to scout as toss...
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So this is Iechoic's build against protoss except for the fact that you make marines also? Cool, I was wondering if this build worked against other races.
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On May 18 2011 15:06 Velladin wrote:
Sky Terran for the win!
Sky Terrans is really really good against Terran.
All the Protoss Anti Air is stopped by PDD. I don't think there are any units that can hit air and bypass the PDD.
Void rays
But those are eaten alive by pretty much all Terran Anti-air except for Thors and Battlecruisers
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On May 31 2011 02:34 NoisyNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 15:06 Velladin wrote:
Sky Terran for the win!
Sky Terrans is really really good against Terran.
All the Protoss Anti Air is stopped by PDD. I don't think there are any units that can hit air and bypass the PDD. Void rays But those are eaten alive by pretty much all Terran Anti-air except for Thors and Battlecruisers
lol yea vray with zealots can be stopped just with stepping rines...
wth should i do if i see this build...i don't want to be forced into one all-in ish thing like 3-gate blink stalkers
maybe 2 gate stargate with blink stalker and phoenix play?
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anything that makes platinum beat GM twice in a row deserves attention. will check asap.
watched the reps, really nice concept, second GM scouted fullybut failed to realise builds strength. Will catch many many players off guard.
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On May 30 2011 04:39 d1o wrote:
I've faced Sky Terrans few times. First time I was completely destroyed. I thought blink stalkers will do okay. How wrong i was...
Second time I went phoenix archon and charge-zealots as mineral sink. Also researched speed for observers. Phoenixes shut down any heavy banshee play. Just need to build more observers, they get sniped all the time.
archons from DTs? or HTs?
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On May 31 2011 02:45 IzieBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 04:39 d1o wrote:
I've faced Sky Terrans few times. First time I was completely destroyed. I thought blink stalkers will do okay. How wrong i was...
Second time I went phoenix archon and charge-zealots as mineral sink. Also researched speed for observers. Phoenixes shut down any heavy banshee play. Just need to build more observers, they get sniped all the time. archons from DTs? or HTs?
wldnt BCs own this neways? yamato for archons, hellions to deal with zealot harass
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I gave this a go on ladder yesterday with great success. I modified the build slightly so I was transitioning from cloaked banshee harass into the composition given by the OP. My opponent didn't really scout much as his obs was taken out by my marines/raven, and he ended up going blink stalkers. When I pushed out at about the 14 minute mark we had similar sized armies but mine just tore through his. Great composition, the PDDs work a treat!
Thanks for sharing the build, I'm going to keep trying it on ladder and may post a few replays.
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day9daily307 - take home massage:
if he goes air just fucking kill him ^^
i.e. the translation of idra into toss would be to use warpgates and herrass with warping in all kind of stuff from different angles.
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On May 31 2011 22:29 J-C-erloeser wrote:
day9daily307 - take home massage:
if he goes air just fucking kill him ^^
i.e. the translation of idra into toss would be to use warpgates and herrass with warping in all kind of stuff from different angles.
doesnt change anything? hellions/air is fairly mobile
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Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT
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On May 31 2011 22:40 thoradycus wrote:
Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT
I try my best to hellion harass throughout but I don't just sac the hellions needlessly. Also I use the hellions a lot to scout their army movements and expansions.
True I saw Boxer emp his BCs to prevent feedback in nasl, pretty cool idea.
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On May 31 2011 23:31 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 22:40 thoradycus wrote:
Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT I try my best to hellion harass throughout but I don't just sac the hellions needlessly. Also I use the hellions a lot to scout their army movements and expansions. True I saw Boxer emp his BCs to prevent feedback in nasl, pretty cool idea.
when do u build additional factories
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On May 31 2011 23:33 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:31 Devlawl wrote:On May 31 2011 22:40 thoradycus wrote:
Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT I try my best to hellion harass throughout but I don't just sac the hellions needlessly. Also I use the hellions a lot to scout their army movements and expansions. True I saw Boxer emp his BCs to prevent feedback in nasl, pretty cool idea. when do u build additional factories
Usually after my third cc is started or after the third starport is finished and armory upgrades have started.
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On May 31 2011 23:45 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:33 thoradycus wrote:On May 31 2011 23:31 Devlawl wrote:On May 31 2011 22:40 thoradycus wrote:
Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT I try my best to hellion harass throughout but I don't just sac the hellions needlessly. Also I use the hellions a lot to scout their army movements and expansions. True I saw Boxer emp his BCs to prevent feedback in nasl, pretty cool idea. when do u build additional factories Usually after my third cc is started or after the third starport is finished and armory upgrades have started.
Btw do u upgrade vehicles? How many armories u get
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On May 31 2011 23:46 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2011 23:45 Devlawl wrote:On May 31 2011 23:33 thoradycus wrote:On May 31 2011 23:31 Devlawl wrote:On May 31 2011 22:40 thoradycus wrote:
Now that I have time Im gonna try refine this build abit
btw, do you continue hellion harass thruout?
also ghosts can be used to EMP BCs in case of HT I try my best to hellion harass throughout but I don't just sac the hellions needlessly. Also I use the hellions a lot to scout their army movements and expansions. True I saw Boxer emp his BCs to prevent feedback in nasl, pretty cool idea. when do u build additional factories Usually after my third cc is started or after the third starport is finished and armory upgrades have started. Btw do u upgrade vehicles? How many armories u get
The only vehicle upgrade I get is blue flame usually. Usually I get two armories for double air upgrades.
Lately I've been considering not getting a second armory until my third is up and only upgrading air damage to begin with. It might allow me to expo a bit faster and get additional starports and factories faster.
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Great Strategy, i just want to add that you need to play with the informationdeficit the Protoss has.
Banshees are really powerful (almost same dps as Charged Voidrays, for alot less cost)
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I'm interested in the 2nd GM game, the complaining in the chat at the end of it seemed to indicate that there was to be a rematch? Did this go ahead, did he manage to stop you?
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On June 01 2011 00:26 rebotfc wrote:
I'm interested in the 2nd GM game, the complaining in the chat at the end of it seemed to indicate that there was to be a rematch? Did this go ahead, did he manage to stop you?
Yes there was a rematch which was a lot closer. Basically he went for a 1gate expo even though he was saying four gate could beat me easily. I didn't notice his expo so I prepared for an all-in that didn't come and got a pretty late expo. I then deny his third but then overextend myself trying to crush his army and he comes out ahead in the major engagement. So he maintains his economic lead through to the late game where he gets HT out as well and I'm just too far behind to come back, gg.
I think I could have won the second game if I had noticed his early expo and got mine out quickly too as well as not overextending after denying his third.
I'll add the replay, if I can find it, if you like.
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On June 01 2011 00:43 Devlawl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 00:26 rebotfc wrote:
I'm interested in the 2nd GM game, the complaining in the chat at the end of it seemed to indicate that there was to be a rematch? Did this go ahead, did he manage to stop you? Yes there was a rematch which was a lot closer. Basically he went for a 1gate expo even though he was saying four gate could beat me easily. I didn't notice his expo so I prepared for an all-in that didn't come and got a pretty late expo. I then deny his third but then overextend myself trying to crush his army and he comes out ahead in the major engagement. So he maintains his economic lead through to the late game where he gets HT out as well and I'm just too far behind to come back, gg. I think I could have won the second game if I had noticed his early expo and got mine out quickly too as well as not overextending after denying his third. I'll add the replay, if I can find it, if you like.
just add every replay of the build
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Pretty cool, but experimental.
To be honest I hate opening 2port banshee, too all-in with ASAP cloak. Prefer start select 2rax pressure with fast expand and then tech switch to 3port banshee/viking/raven mix, still producing from the two rax, once the second base's economy picks up.
You have ground control and the opponent will more than likely waste their time teching to Colossus and simply gg when they see the Banshee numbers, in lower leagues anyways.
Here's one for you, since you opponent with 2port banshee cloak, say your opponent just opens straight up with Phoenix harass and spots your going heavy banshee. Then throws down another Stargate and keeps going mass Phoenix while expanding, how do you deal with this?
And look for a build called the "anti-colossus" build its a 5port 2 base timing attack that synstar uses and I think he's in masters so could definitely get some good ideas from watching some of his replays for you own strategy.
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On June 01 2011 03:42 aaycumi wrote:
Pretty cool, but experimental.
To be honest I hate opening 2port banshee, too all-in with ASAP cloak. Prefer start select 2rax pressure with fast expand and then tech switch to 3port banshee/viking/raven mix, still producing from the two rax, once the second base's economy picks up.
You have ground control and the opponent will more than likely waste their time teching to Colossus and simply gg when they see the Banshee numbers, in lower leagues anyways.
Here's one for you, since you opponent with 2port banshee cloak, say your opponent just opens straight up with Phoenix harass and spots your going heavy banshee. Then throws down another Stargate and keeps going mass Phoenix while expanding, how do you deal with this?
And look for a build called the "anti-colossus" build its a 5port 2 base timing attack that synstar uses and I think he's in masters so could definitely get some good ideas from watching some of his replays for you own strategy.
If they start straight up phoenix harass then I just defend with marines and pump a few vikings out and the harass threat is pretty much gone until I have two base where I will want to get some turrets so I can move out with my whole army. Also after expo I'll get cloak as their detection will be delayed and I'll do a bit of harass. On two base I'll have my third starport reactored and I've found that 1-1 or greater vikings plus pdd and marines deal with heavy phoenix play very easily, just check out some of the replays where I mention there is phoenix use.
I have seen Synystyr's thread and I'm sure his version works just as well but I prefer my opening . I don't think my version of 2port is all in at all as I tailor it depending on what I scout. I can speed up the expo significantly by going raven first and stopping hellion/marine production if I scout some sort of expansion build from the protoss and I can bunker up on one base and defend any all in. Not to mention if I see a lack of detection I can get cloak and do decent damage to the protoss.
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White Ra actually lost to some platinum noob who went mass Terran Air after being challenged. The guy claimed that he had an "invincible strategy" and bragged that he could beat White-Ra with it, so he played him and lost. The key thing about mass terran air is denying enemy detection.
If you keep a couple of vikings with a fleet of banshees, scan as soon as you engage the protoss. Observers take aggro, so the vikings will auto-snipe any observers within their 9 range. At that point, the protoss can either run or die. The only counter to this is MASS psi storm which is not viable because of the heavy gas cost and the amulet nerf. Cheers to you terran players for finding an invincible strategy
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I just realised its about the same BO as iechoic's 112 build. Whats the advantages using that compared to this one
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On June 02 2011 20:10 thoradycus wrote:
I just realised its about the same BO as iechoic's 112 build. Whats the advantages using that compared to this one
Basically my build is safer and has a better economy than the iechoic version. With iechoic's 112 build the main difference is he goes for a hellion drop before expanding. Mine doesn't involve that so the minerals that went into those hellions can be put into an expo instead and my banshees are out faster so I can defend easier as well.
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EPT
