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On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote:
been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
Can you post some replays of losses at M / GM level. I'm sure it would help P's who struggle with this and also assist yoshi see the major weaknesses in the build.
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YOSHI FIGHTING! I like how you have vids to support your ideas, nicely made thread
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On November 21 2011 17:59 caduceus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2011 16:47 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
These were the only ones I found, and I noticed them just by chance. They were titled something like "TvP Fast PF". There were 4 replays in total, although one was mislabeled and was a TvZ (so I didn't post it above). The player's name was Guacamole. OT, but I wish replay sites would require better descriptions for public replays. "XvY" isn't terribly helpful if you're trying to look up strats. I can understand ones submitted for help, but demonstrative replays are so much easier to find with a decent description. (I'm a replay junkie).
Ah, k. Yeah I agree, even when I was trying to name my replays I was like, uhh, what to name? haha. And it's hard to list the highlights for the description without putting too much time.
On November 22 2011 00:25 ReachTheSky wrote:
LOL! this strat is hell a fun and hilarious. Protoss just seems helpless. even if they 2 stargate it doesn't even matter. i'm able to take way more expands than the toss. i got rolled by this when i was off racing as toss. I decided to give it a try and wow. Hella fun. Funny as hell when the toss rofls his way outta the game
I agree man, I get so much BM  (well, mostly ragequits I think, but still)
On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote:
been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
OMG masters on KR? haha. Can you show some replays though? even just one. I agree with you, I've realized one thing that Protoss has that Terran doesn't; the ability to control the Terran's unit composition.
Stalkers can attack both air and ground. Vikings can attack both air and ground, but have to transform, which makes it much less versatile than the Stalker. Since the Terran has to make sure he has enough AA, the Protoss can start cutting Phoenixes and get other units. The Terran might have AA, but it's useless without any actual air-ground units. I've been relying on scanning his main to see how many stargates he has and if/when his HT tech will get up, etc. However, I am still experimenting with the idea that, as long as you have a little air to ground, and go double armory, your AA will be fine and, if you are able to deny all detection, then your banshees (even if just a couple) will be fine. However, problems exist such as the Protoss bringing in 1 observer at a time. This costs a lot of gas though, so I'm unsure of it. Perhaps double armory + mass vikings in this situation could work; the Vikings will actually beat the Stalkers. Even if it doesn't work too well, at least it's not an instant loss where all your AA becomes useless, like his Phoenix are pretty useless.
Then again, another way to solve the problem is to transition into BCs. These are a bit slow, but in HotS they will get some kind of boost ability.
Anyways I still have a lot of ideas to try out. For example, using Medivac-Ghosts to deal with the Phoenixes and HTs. The phoenixes will inevitably stack up, and the Ghosts can counter the HTs' effectiveness. Too bad EMP got nerfed -.-;
On November 22 2011 00:29 rebotfc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 18:43 mGMUSE wrote:
been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
Can you post some replays of losses at M / GM level. I'm sure it would help P's who struggle with this and also assist yoshi see the major weaknesses in the build.
Yea what he said <3
Edit: Another idea is transitioning into Mass Raven, with a couple Medivacs and Ghosts. PDD, drop the Ghosts, and instantly EMP so they can't feedback you. It's more gas heavy than HT/Stalker, but if he wants to feedback all of your Ravens, he'll need just as many HTs, and HT/Stalker is almost as gas intensive as Ghost/Raven, and HT/Stalker is a grounded army.
God there's so much to test out haha, I just hope this strategy will work out in the end.
On November 23 2011 10:20 Kevinshi3 wrote:
YOSHI FIGHTING! I like how you have vids to support your ideas, nicely made thread
Thanks <3
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i got rolled today by litterally bansheee viking raven even with funguls curruptors and mutalisk( i even used hydralisk i was so desperate)
and i had most of the map and 3/3 hes air wasn't upgraded at all and he still straight up beat me.......0_0
his banshees had cloak......... my overseers were useless due to the vikings range of 9.......... and my curruptors and mutalisk and queens and spores and hydralisk couldn't hit the banshees/vikings due to the PDD's
its kindof scary that a banshee does the same damge as a BW battlecruiser but with better DPS
not saying masss air is uncounterable but holy crap..... like ghost mech really strong and my god if the terrans learned how to stay up on vehical and ship weapons and armor(double armory) on all match ups my god....................... 0_0 and if they went into BC's being mass reapired by SCV's or mules. wtih ravens with HSM.....
searously guys the raven is like the dark archon.. takes alot of upgrading but WOW is it good in the right hands and since most terrans tend to float alot of gas.........................
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I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
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On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha.
hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven.
and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat
and searously the raven is really good
BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank)
also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong
the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival
BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks?
also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret?
did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore?
did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds?
Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage?
god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units
the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD)
a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM)
a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
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On November 23 2011 15:23 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha. hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven. and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat and searously the raven is really good BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank) also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks? also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage? god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL
when u compare raven to reaver, wow o.o
Also yes i love all those upgrades!
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On November 23 2011 16:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 15:23 Zergrusher wrote:On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha. hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven. and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat and searously the raven is really good BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank) also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks? also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage? god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret) actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL when u compare raven to reaver, wow o.o Also yes i love all those upgrades!
its 125 damage actually, not 100
and yes I'm right about the spash( HUGE radius)
adn like i said the raven is a combo of BW units and like the DA its amazing when invested in and used right
Also i should have included its like a science vessel in the sence that its a flying dectector castor ship
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On November 23 2011 19:24 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 16:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 23 2011 15:23 Zergrusher wrote:On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha. hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven. and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat and searously the raven is really good BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank) also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks? also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage? god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret) actually HSM does 100 dmg, but HOLY FUCK ur right 2 radius? holy shit LOL when u compare raven to reaver, wow o.o Also yes i love all those upgrades! its 125 damage actually, not 100 and yes I'm right about the spash( HUGE radius) adn like i said the raven is a combo of BW units and like the DA its amazing when invested in and used right Also i should have included its like a science vessel in the sence that its a flying dectector castor ship
seeker missile does 100 damage
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Seeker_missile
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On November 23 2011 15:23 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha. hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven. and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat and searously the raven is really good BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank) also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks? also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage? god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret)
Seeker Missile damage drops of dramatically from distance from the center. Just like Siege Tanks and Nukes. Seeker Missile does 100 damage to units within 0.5 range of the center (Zerglings are 0.25 if I remember correctly). 50 damage to units within 1.0 range of center. 25 damage to units within 2.0 range of center.
For comparison:
Nuke: 8.0, damage scales down with distance from center
Baneling: 2.2, no friendly fire
Fungal: 2.0, no friendly fire
Seeker Missile: 2.0, damage scales down with distance from center
Psi Storm: 1.5
EMP: 1.5
Siege Tank: 1.25, damage scales down with distance from center
Planetary Fortress: 1.25, no friendly fire, damage scales down with distance from center
Thor: 0.5, no friendly fire
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Looks promising! I love mech and also have been experimenting with it a lot on KR. But I'm just Dia though
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On November 23 2011 23:32 RoboBob wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2011 15:23 Zergrusher wrote:On November 23 2011 15:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I was thinking the same thing, zergrusher. That terrans should try (unless pros already did) using ravens with marine tank and etc, i mean usually they are floating like 2000 gas at the end and could float even more if they mine all their gas xD
Anyway what league were you playing at? I'd like to see the replay, been trying to figure out air tvz haha. hahah the funny thing is this guy went from marine marauder tank to litterally 6 starport+ and made litterally marine, banshee, viking raven. and i am in gold, but the guy who did this was in plat and searously the raven is really good BTW the ravens PDD blocks the mutalisk attacks(useful tips for usage with marine tank) also if you dump alot of your excess minerals into Missle T's and PF's or orbitals or marines.... its quite strong the raven is the best spell caster in the game the viper will probally be its rival BTW did you know the banshee has 2 attacks? also that the hi-sec auto tracking effects the PDD, PF, Missle T, and auto turret? did you know building armor effects the auto turret since its concidered a structore? did you know that with durable materials the auto turret can last for 270 seconds? Did you know that the HSM has THE BIGGEST SPLASH in the game and the seeker missle does 125 damage? god the terrans have the best versitility and over all unit combos....... and units the raven has a dark swarm rip off(PDD) a scarab from the protoss reaver(HSM) a ability from command and conquer( auto turret) Seeker Missile damage drops of dramatically from distance from the center. Just like Siege Tanks and Nukes. Seeker Missile does 100 damage to units within 0.5 range of the center (Zerglings are 0.25 if I remember correctly). 50 damage to units within 1.0 range of center. 25 damage to units within 2.0 range of center. For comparison: Nuke: 8.0, damage scales down with distance from center Baneling: 2.2, no friendly fire Fungal: 2.0, no friendly fire Seeker Missile: 2.0, damage scales down with distance from center Psi Storm: 1.5 EMP: 1.5 Siege Tank: 1.25, damage scales down with distance from center Planetary Fortress: 1.25, no friendly fire, damage scales down with distance from center Thor: 0.5, no friendly fire
Wow, didn't know/realize fungal was so big o.o
Also, hah no wonder they nerfed HSM to 6 range back then, even though it was slow.
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Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
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On November 24 2011 03:57 bLah. wrote:
Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
Not true. It's not a good spell if there are any number of HTs out and the protoss has good control, but beyond that I've won a lot of games where 3-4 seeker missiles have been the defining part of the winning battle. If you're playing a heavy banshee harass style, and you're successfully picking off tech, seeker missile is absolutely viable as a support spell. I personally like pdd more, but once you have like ten ravens, there's no reason not to spam seeker missile.
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Seeker missile is a really bad spell, it only does good damage in the middle, and protoss units are generally large. Also once you use seeker missile you can only use turret, whereas a full energy raven can use PDD twice. Two PDDs is battle changing esp with this strategy, HSM is not. HSM also puts your raven badly in harms way.
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On November 24 2011 03:57 bLah. wrote:
Can't believe that someone is actually talking about HSM like it's some good spell. I mean, wtf :/
HSM against protoss i the most stupid thing ever. Seriously, 125 energy for a spell that can't kill any unit? who cares about radius if it scales down to nothing from center.
HSM is only good in end game TvT in viking battles.
On November 24 2011 04:20 statikg wrote:
Seeker missile is a really bad spell, it only does good damage in the middle, and protoss units are generally large. Also once you use seeker missile you can only use turret, whereas a full energy raven can use PDD twice. Two PDDs is battle changing esp with this strategy, HSM is not. HSM also puts your raven badly in harms way.
Don't agree, as I've stated in the guide I've tried out numerous numbers and compositions, and HSM always ended up killing slightly more than 1 PDD. If you have 200/200 energy though, then yes of course use 2 PDD instead. But HSM does a shit ton of damage.
Stalkers might not clump up too much, but since their DPS is so slow, being able to use an instant-dmg spell like HSM is really good. If they get void rays or phoenixes, it is good too since air units stack so much if he doesn't split them carefully.
Don't agree with it putting Ravens in harms way, it is a bit dangerous but their units should be automatically targetting your other air units, plus you should have some PDD down too (try to PDD with the ravens that have 200/200, if any).
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Awesome guide; well written and extremely thorough. Thank you for sharing this with the community, I cannot wait to try it out. Will you be writing more guides? Like TvZ or TvT?
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On November 24 2011 05:30 Ragnarok87 wrote:
Awesome guide; well written and extremely thorough. Thank you for sharing this with the community, I cannot wait to try it out. Will you be writing more guides? Like TvZ or TvT?
Yeah i'll be writing a TvZ and TvT guide too, TvZ either ghost nuke opening on shakuras or gumiho's mech-air, TvT rainbow's mech opening vs clide in GSL super tourny
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Russian Federation100 Posts
tried this play style and have won 2 out of 3 games after what seems like an endless losing streak against Protoss
thank you.
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Russian Federation473 Posts
seeker missile is super strong against zerg and terran, but total garbage against protoss.
come on yoshi, 6 range on 9 range of feedback, are you kidding me?
and a templar can instantly kill up to 4 ravens, it's just impossible to make seeker missile work given toss is less than 2 leagues behind the terran.
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EPT
