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Thanks for sharing statikg, and I'm glad that it's been working out! Another thing I realized is that, aside from Phoenix costing 25 more gas than Vikings, Stargates also cost 50 more gas xD. So that's like a Starport with Reactor, aka Vikings can be built so much faster (I'm not sure if it's a good idea to not have all Starports on Tech Labs though, maybe have an extra reactor nearby to some Starports so you can switch them over if needed?)
Also, I'll probably not update this guide until maybe... after Christmas break is over. Expect it to be more accurate, more helpful, more polished, etc. Currently I have a lot of ideas I want to try out and things still need to be figured out so it'll take a while to be sure, and I'm still getting rapidly better so I'll just update it once I'm a lot better. If anyone wants to practice against this style or help me out with some ideas hit me up Yoshi.855
Thinking about things like carrying support Ghosts in Medivacs with your air fleets to EMP HTs or Stalkers or even the usually-clumped up air units. Maybe even Nukes since you can deny Observers (omg this sounds so fun :D).
Also thinking about things like whether or not it's better to go with upgrades and max out a 200/200 meaty Banshee or BC army, or go for the spell-caster kind of army with mass Ravens which will be vulnerable to mass HTs but not if you get Ghosts in Medivacs. I think it'll be too hard for him to try to EMP multiple ghosts dropping from 2 or more Medivacs, while it'll be easy to queue your Medivacs to drop your Ghosts while you get ready to select them via control group and EMP. Maybe if you get mass Ravens in the lategame, and he counters by massing HTs, you can just spam PFs and kill his bases with them since HTs can't do nothing against PFs xD.
There's just so much to figure out, it's like if everyone plays Mech TvZ and no one knows about mass marine or marine/tank/medivac xD
I'm wondering if I add other styles (different ways to play air just like mech or bio), if I should just include them all into this guide, with each "style" in a huge huge spoiler, or just make a new thread for each one and keep this as an overview that might not touch on every single strategy/tactic/style with air compositions? Thanks in advance for any thoughts
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I recently started laddering again at the start of the new season after a 4-5 month break and the only matchup I was having trouble with was toss. I would go mmmg as a final composition but would always just get torn apart by storms and charge zealots, unless i finished the game off early with a strong stim or drop timing. Im only high platinum, but this build has basically made tvp my best matchup now after only a few attempts. Now its my goto build and Ive been trying to refine it depending on the map. Unless Im sure he is expanding after I scout with scv and then helion, i continue marine production until I have about 6-8 with two bunkers ay my ramp before expand. I also try to build my buildings on the side of the main close to the nat, this seems to be the most effective way of dealing with a void or blink stalker rush. Pull scv's as needed and just make sure your banshees and extra cc are on the way asap to help defend while you stall with marines.
I played a match on Nerazim Crypt yesterday where my first couple cloaked banshee basically stopped his entire 1base gameplan for just enough time for me to get my PF up and running. I was bottom right he was bottom left. I saved both banshees and bought them home to defend. Next thing you know I have 8 pf's lining the north and east edges of the map and he still hasnt even ventured to the top half of the map yet. When he finally noticed my pf at 11oclock, my banshee force sniped both his nexus before he even realized what was happening. I almost felt bad for him.
I often watch the replays afterwards and it seems like Im always so far behind in supply around the time of my harass that I should be dead at any possible moment but the air superiority is just too much to deal with it seems. Also, I love how the only resource I pay attention to is gas. Makes everything so much easier when minerals are an afterthought and I dont even ever drop a mule. I also like how witht he early expos you can spread your scvs out thinner which means bases last longer and arnt that big a deal to lose.
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I was browsing GameReplays.org and noticed this masters-level player doing a TvP pure air style. Looks like he does a fast expand with an orbital at the natural, protected by an arrangement of a quick PF straddled by two bunkers. The PF and bunkers are actually placed in front of the orbital at the natural.
This interesting turtle arrangement is followed up, similar to your build, by numerous starports pumping out mass banshees and a few ravens/vikings, aggressive PF expansion, turret spam, and late game BC's. His initial banshee attack is a bit later than yours, and his approach isn't quite so harassment-style, but his economy is probably better, given the 2nd orbital. Similar to your replays, his food count was almost always behind his opponent (sometimes 50 behind), but the build appeared to be quite effective, even against double starport.
I don't know if you can take much from these, but perhaps it might give you some more ideas to incorporate. Nice build and writeup!
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I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
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This is a good build that may catch Toss offguard but certainly something that cannot be done twice to the same person
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On November 13 2011 03:34 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote:I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee  But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding. I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway. Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote:Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways  that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made?
As a P player, I'd suggest Thors from the factory if they are going phoenix off those 2 starports. I react to 2+ stsrports with phoenixes and cannons but the moment I see Thor production I stop making phoenix. I'm only diamond and I am not advising mass Thor transitions. But 2 or 3 Thors and I won't know what to do with my phoenixes as I try to run them out of harms way. Of course, both Thors and banshees are countered by feedback--but even a feedbacked Thor still tanks enough damage to make phoenix engagement difficult.
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On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote:
How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front.
In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in.
I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out.
Yea I was wondering the same thing. When I used to play T I would throw in a build that was like Synsters. As toss (I'm only diamond), I find that I usually have better macro than the Ts that I play that use this style so I generally win if the game goes on for awhile.
BUT, as other posters have said, if I don't scout it (in other words, if you are a turret-whore and I lose 2 obs when trying to get a feel for your production), then I am going to lose.
I would say that the strength of this build is that it forces toss into a non-standard unit composition. That said, to the extent that you are too focused on air, it becomes relatively straightforward for me as I can focus on air, air upgrades, and HTs.I find it more difficult when the T mixes in Thors and tanks.
And a note about BCs: if you DO prompt an over-investment in phoenixs, consider a couple of BCs.
tl;dr Just because this build relies, in part, on forcing the toss into uncomfortable-non-standard play doesn't make it illegitimate. HOWEVER, as a lowly-diamond-toss, I do find the element of surprise to be its major strength. If I scout it in time, I am pretty confident that my macro will get me the win.
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On November 18 2011 04:36 Cloudshade wrote:
I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
Thanks! Will watch this weekend <3
On November 18 2011 04:36 Cloudshade wrote:
I' ve been up against this style wayyy back in season 1...and honestly, it only caught me off guard...but i still won at the end...mainly you just need to get either templar OR pheonix...or even both=] the toss in the first video....i don't know what he was doing....he just kept getting immortals and zealots and didn't scout very much at all whatsoever...only vid i watched tho...i hope not all replays like that lol....i think against this type of build...a huge abundance of cannons is necessary....instead of zealots which are quite useless....
Please check the strategy guidelines, you have no evidence or reasoning as to why you just "need to get either templar or phoenix". It's like saying Banelings counter Marines. Sure, generally, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are the answer to Marines. Given specific situations, like in small numbers, in open areas, if the Terran has more econ, or whatever, etc. etc., the Banelings might actually be a bad choice since Marines can split cost efficiently if the micro is good.
Also, you obviously spent like 0 effort looking at this guide because you missed the massive disclaimer right next to the video.
Not to be rude but this kind of post is 0% constructive =/
On November 18 2011 04:42 zmansman17 wrote:
This is a good build that may catch Toss offguard but certainly something that cannot be done twice to the same person
Disagree. There are different ways to transition into air style. If you can cheese someone once in a Bo3 or Bo5 or bigger, you can do it again. You don't have to choose a different cheese every game (not that this is a cheese).
Also, the 2 replays i have (vs Top Master who knows how to deal with air, and the game on crevasse) are from a Bo3 tournament, so I just proved you wrong ^_^
On November 18 2011 05:14 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 03:34 Quotidian wrote:On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote:I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding. I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway. On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote:Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made? As a P player, I'd suggest Thors from the factory if they are going phoenix off those 2 starports. I react to 2+ stsrports with phoenixes and cannons but the moment I see Thor production I stop making phoenix. I'm only diamond and I am not advising mass Thor transitions. But 2 or 3 Thors and I won't know what to do with my phoenixes as I try to run them out of harms way. Of course, both Thors and banshees are countered by feedback--but even a feedbacked Thor still tanks enough damage to make phoenix engagement difficult.
At least for my style, focusing on harass, Thors are completely the opposite of what i want... The point of going pure air is because you can keep your army together, more mobile than your opponent. By splitting your army up into slow units like Thors, you are splitting your own army up just like the Protoss is. However, Medivac+Thor can be interesting. I'm excited to test that out lol. 400/300 is a lot though, and Thors don't do that much dps, will have to see if they do enough to kill phoenixes or if the phoenixes can just jump in and snipe everything to death. I guess with PDD/SM you should be fine. I wonder if you pick up your thors fast enough and have your air army over them, if it will be difficult for the HTs to actually click on the Thors, especially if you have BCs xD.
I also want to say for like the 9001th time (though the guide is really long so I understand lol), feedback only stops cloak, it does not counter Banshees. 1 HT could have been 3 Stalkers (gas is the limiting resource for both races in this style). His army will be so weak as long as you have a Banshee heavy army. I'm curious if you would want ghosts with your thors also in medivacs. A HT can feedback a thor but it's not going to help him kill the Thor unless he also has Stalkers... which means he has to have more ground units. Zealots can be scary but with epic micro you could just pick the Thor back up and drop micro to kill Phoenix.
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So i've won like everygame i've done this. Except when i didn't see warp prism...(t-t)
I'm master EU btw. I dont really know what toss is supposed to do. haha. so imbaaaa ))
One guy said he would beat it if he saw it again. Imma play vs him again and come back. He's better than me tho (imo) and still i won with pure air after doing alot of mistakes.
siiiickkkkk
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On November 18 2011 05:55 kusu wrote:So i've won like everygame i've done this. Except when i didn't see warp prism...(t-t) I'm master EU btw. I dont really know what toss is supposed to do. haha. so imbaaaa )) One guy said he would beat it if he saw it again. Imma play vs him again and come back. He's better than me tho (imo) and still i won with pure air after doing alot of mistakes. siiiickkkkk
Cool man very nice. Since you are Master on EU you may be even better than me xD
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United States45 Posts
This is so hard to deal with as a Protoss.
My friend has been doing this against me for 2 years and I still have an extremely difficult time with it. I'm Masters toss he is Platinum terran. Lots of banshee and vikings into BC is just so powerful.
It's been nice not having to deal with it on the ladder so I hate you for this. <3
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On November 18 2011 05:58 flyguy wrote:
This is so hard to deal with as a Protoss.
My friend has been doing this against me for 2 years and I still have an extremely difficult time with it. I'm Masters toss he is Platinum terran. Lots of banshee and vikings into BC is just so powerful.
It's been nice not having to deal with it on the ladder so I hate you for this. <3
Haha I'm sorry
Are you actually seeing it more now? a couple people said they've started facing it a lot. At the same time I feel it's cool people read my guide and try out new things but at same time I want to keep the strategy as much as a surprise as possible :D
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This is a style that I hope more pros can make viable in the future. SC2 should be as versatile as possible, since the current metagame favors the bio ball against protoss. Air battles, from a spectator's perspective, are enjoyable to watch. Whether it be mobile muta/viking/phoenix dogfights, or late game capital fleets, it is generally enjoyable to watch and brings variety to the game.
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On November 17 2011 18:43 caduceus wrote:I was browsing GameReplays.org and noticed this masters-level player doing a TvP pure air style. Looks like he does a fast expand with an orbital at the natural, protected by an arrangement of a quick PF straddled by two bunkers. The PF and bunkers are actually placed in front of the orbital at the natural. This interesting turtle arrangement is followed up, similar to your build, by numerous starports pumping out mass banshees and a few ravens/vikings, aggressive PF expansion, turret spam, and late game BC's. His initial banshee attack is a bit later than yours, and his approach isn't quite so harassment-style, but his economy is probably better, given the 2nd orbital. Similar to your replays, his food count was almost always behind his opponent (sometimes 50 behind), but the build appeared to be quite effective, even against double starport. I don't know if you can take much from these, but perhaps it might give you some more ideas to incorporate. Nice build and writeup!
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
On November 18 2011 06:37 Bagration wrote:
This is a style that I hope more pros can make viable in the future. SC2 should be as versatile as possible, since the current metagame favors the bio ball against protoss. Air battles, from a spectator's perspective, are enjoyable to watch. Whether it be mobile muta/viking/phoenix dogfights, or late game capital fleets, it is generally enjoyable to watch and brings variety to the game.
I agree. It's nice that we see it in TvT once in a while though, eh? I mean it's called STAR craft. Don't ya think star battles would fit? xD
Sort of cool cus terran is like the traditional RTS style, and the [turtling to get] big [air] battles sounds traditional too xD
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Problem with that match of whitera posted above is that there is still Khaydarin Amulet.. Yeh give me that and i have no problem with dealing with this style hehe
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On November 20 2011 18:25 YosHGo wrote:Problem with that match of whitera posted above is that there is still Khaydarin Amulet.. Yeh give me that and i have no problem with dealing with this style hehe
Thanks for pointing that out, so in other words, given the already stated major mistakes of QXC, and now also the fact that KA isn't in the game anymore, the air style is definitely "viable" ^^
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On November 20 2011 16:47 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Just wondering are these the only others that you've found? I tried to search up "TvP pure air" and "TvP air" and I couldn't find any other than my own or the 1 GM replay which was really really bad (vs Logger, who was Protoss)
Still haven't had the time to watch, but now that I've finally fixed my PC (it wasn't Patch 1.4's fault, at least not entirely!) I can watch replays on x8 again without having to freeze all the time xD
These were the only ones I found, and I noticed them just by chance. They were titled something like "TvP Fast PF". There were 4 replays in total, although one was mislabeled and was a TvZ (so I didn't post it above). The player's name was Guacamole.
OT, but I wish replay sites would require better descriptions for public replays. "XvY" isn't terribly helpful if you're trying to look up strats. I can understand ones submitted for help, but demonstrative replays are so much easier to find with a decent description. (I'm a replay junkie).
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been testing this over the past week(masters kr/sea gm)
any good toss will stop this with stalker/ht/phoenixes/expos + cannons. there's too many variables that you don't know as terran when doing this strat that can lead to an insta-loss(number of phoenixes he has, timing he gets them, how fast he expos) etc.
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Russian Federation164 Posts
Oh my God. So good. And so long. But so good. Yet, extremely long.
You. Must. Resist. Don't. TL;DR. It. Q__Q
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LOL! this strat is hell a fun and hilarious. Protoss just seems helpless. even if they 2 stargate it doesn't even matter. i'm able to take way more expands than the toss. i got rolled by this when i was off racing as toss. I decided to give it a try and wow. Hella fun. Funny as hell when the toss rofls his way outta the game
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241691.jpg)
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