On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote: How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Please check out my replays, there are a lot of other factors that stop that from happening. You are able to get almost double the Protoss' economy eventually so gas is not a problem. Also, there is no way he can force an engagement so essentially you are in a way turtling, but you are turtling not at home but while camping his base, waiting for the moment he leaves to kill everything.
Also, no matter how many obs you get, as long as they all die your banshees can kill everything. Every observer you get is 1.5 stalkers in gas cost. It only takes 3 shots with a viking to kill an observer. Get 10 Observers, your 10 vikings will still kill them before your stalkers can kill half the Banshees, especially since the observers take up your army cost.
And there have been a couple comparisons to Synystyr's guide but the opening is really quite different.
The way you describe it makes it sound like its this god like build that no one can stop and you have a reason for everything. That's if execution is perfect or until you face a protoss who decides to skip the natural and elevator into your main.... 3 gate blink robo with 2 obs might be able to do A LOT of damage, as well as a two base 5G,1Robo elevator build.
On November 13 2011 14:22 HikariPrime wrote: The way you describe it makes it sound like its this god like build that no one can stop and you have a reason for everything. That's if execution is perfect or until you face a protoss who decides to skip the natural and elevator into your main.... 3 gate blink robo with 2 obs might be able to do A LOT of damage, as well as a two base 5G,1Robo elevator build.
Sorry that is not my intention, but even if I have a response or answer to everything it doesn't mean it's unstoppable since it's a game of scouting and like you say, no one plays perfectly. If you look at the important timings section i do list some strategies that this build doesn't work against.
But like I said, you don't have to commit to this build or strategy if you see he doesn't have an expansion. At 4:30 if you scout an expansion, go ahead the build will be very safe. However, even if he's going for an expansion like 1 gate robo expand, that will be up later, and maybe you don't want to risk waiting to see if he puts an expo down because if it's a 1 base play it will probably be too late to respond (you can scan but that's an expensive 250 minerals).
A 3 gate robo blink will probably kill you, though I haven't actually heard of this strategy o.o. Although, it doesn't sound like a 5 gate robo elevator build would work, but again I am unfamiliar with it. Since my banshees should be camping your base it would be a favorable base trade since you have to walk a while before reaching my base and usually i have a third by then.
On November 13 2011 16:16 banthur wrote: how do you deal with a gas steal
You're sort of fucked, better to do a different strategy unless you plan on catching your opponent off guard by getting Banshees anyways . If you still wanna do it you can skip cloak until later, i guess, and maybe get 2 more banshees instead of the raven/viking... not sure. If you do rax first though, usually they won't gas steal you.
I had a game earlier today when a protoss tried to warp prism stalkers into my base(avoiding the bunker) early game, and I survived with a few scvs repairing. Early game I've found it's really hard for protoss to be aggressive, because stalkers just can't deal with repair in small numbers(whether on buildings or banshees). So that's something to keep in mind. This build doesn't seem like it would work as well as it does, but raven banshee really does destroy stalkers, and late game vikings do so well against protoss air it's unreal. So many protosses I've found try to base trade, but you always have more bases than the protoss, and your bases take much longer to kill because of repair.
On November 13 2011 17:05 Blindo wrote: I had a game earlier today when a protoss tried to warp prism stalkers into my base(avoiding the bunker) early game, and I survived with a few scvs repairing. Early game I've found it's really hard for protoss to be aggressive, because stalkers just can't deal with repair in small numbers(whether on buildings or banshees). So that's something to keep in mind. This build doesn't seem like it would work as well as it does, but raven banshee really does destroy stalkers, and late game vikings do so well against protoss air it's unreal. So many protosses I've found try to base trade, but you always have more bases than the protoss, and your bases take much longer to kill because of repair.
Oh did you win? I actually just played a game vs my clannie, he said he modified a build of WhiteRa's, basically it was like a 3 gate (4gate? I'll check) Robo, he dropped some units in the back of my main and started to warp in. Anyways I still ended up winning by scaring/delaying with marines/SCV until cloak finished, sent 1 banshee to his base and defended at home with cloak too (hid the 2nd starport). Not sure if the replay is any good though xD
Unfortunately with the WP health buff I don't think there is a way to respond by getting out a fast viking (canceling banshee) and trying to kill the WP, unless may be the air distance is a bit big and you guess his flight path (which shouldn't be too hard actually). Maybe if you send 1 SCV to 1 corner of the map to scout and send your viking to a good spot where his WP will enter your base, you can stop it. Have to figure out the timings
On November 13 2011 13:59 statikg wrote: How has nobody compared this to synsters anti colossus build? Guess that ones to old for the majority of posters.
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game.
This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with.
Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front.
In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in.
I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out.
Synystyr's old strategy is a FE into 4 port int BC. I dunno, I think its actually quite hard early game to make stalkers cost effective against banshees especially when you get 4 and can 2 shot stalkers and cliff them around the back of the main bases. Of course they aren't good vs stalkers on open field unless you have PDD but I think its debatable which unit is more cost effective early game.
You also have to think about mineral requirements since stalkers cost quite a few minerals.
On November 10 2011 16:25 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I've actually been thinking about making more OCs for Scans so that you can save gas for banshees instead of Ravens (up to 2 more bashees per raven). Except for lategame where the banshees will take too much food (6 food per 2 food), it might be better to have more banshees than to have PDD/Seeker Missile (which needs to be upgraded anyways). Do you have any input on this?
Well using scans is better from my perspective because decent P players will keep the observer in the back of the army. With the limited sight range of the raven its better to not sacrifice it and use scan instead then snipe the observer. For the lategsame I prefer firepower over ravens. But without enough PDD you will also die in seconds even if you have mass banshee. The raven/banshee balance needs to fit. This strat is hard to pull off in lategame because P players will drain your banshee and raven energy with attacking and retreating. Biggest thread are the blink stalker of course with storm feedback support or phoenix which are good to get rid of PDD.
I really like this buiiiild! I'm opening 1/1/2 (old iechoic build) and it's reallyyy niceeee. It's preaty awesome vs people that doesn't know how to respond correctly. But if you practice vs same guy it aloooot harder. I will have to practice more and see what the best response is to guys that know's what i'm doing
On November 13 2011 06:21 Antisocialmunky wrote: You still have to reach a critical mass where you can:
Get enough minerals to spam expos and enough gas to fund your starport habit. If you get hit hard before that then you lose.
I agree with this. Once you get to that point you're aight. But if he defence perfectly and shit it can be very hard.
Personally, I have no idea why this strategy is so underused - I feel like it has a lot of potential on some maps (say Meta close air) and that it is really underdeveloped in general.
I still haven't found a reliable way to play against this. Stalkers are so incredibly crappy for their cost, HTs are horribly expensive and vikings+PDD owns phoenixes. Usually I try some kind of 2 base blink all-in with a couple of obs....but then again, usually I just lose vs this style of play.... :/
Also HTX, yeah good point about the range. Scan lets you see so much. Since you don't really need MULEs (even if you want to expand more, faster) you will have a lot of Scans to use.
I was actually thinking a maxed out army of Banshees vs Stalkers (3/3 vs not 3/3/3 assuming you killed his forges a couple times) would win by a lot, but may be not if it's 200/200? Since it would mean 3 stalkers per 2 banshees, so yea it would seem it's a bit weak. So there goes the raw power idea eh?
I've been thinking a lot about making an OC at the natural instead. You can still put 2 bunkers with marines, though a big counterattack would kill you. However, since by the time a counterattack comes you already have your third, with an OC that might mean that you'll have your fourth building too. So maybe it is indeed better (as long as you spread/float your buildings between your bases and not put everything int he main). So it's like he has to kill 2 OC bases and then 2 PFs, instead of having to kill 1 PF, 1 OC, then another PF. Actually if this kind of situation occurs, perhaps it's better to just build your first expansion in the most inconvenient place possible for Protoss, like the low ground protected by rocks on Shakuras or the semi-islands on Shattered Temple.
On November 14 2011 02:42 sleepingdog wrote: Personally, I have no idea why this strategy is so underused - I feel like it has a lot of potential on some maps (say Meta close air) and that it is really underdeveloped in general.
I still haven't found a reliable way to play against this. Stalkers are so incredibly crappy for their cost, HTs are horribly expensive and vikings+PDD owns phoenixes. Usually I try some kind of 2 base blink all-in with a couple of obs....but then again, usually I just lose vs this style of play.... :/
I would like to know that too. I've been asking better players than me and they say it works, but I think the reasons why it's so underused consist of
1) Not wanting to risk committing time into a style that may or may not work as well as "standard" styles like marine/tank 2) A straight to pure air build being too tech heavy, leaving you vulnerable early on. Even if you can adapt and do a different strategy to a 1 base rush or such, you might have to end up playing out a game without playing pure air, and if you've practiced only pure air, you will be uncomfrotable.
Also, I think the only reliable way is to open up phoenixes to force terran into making Vikings and take lots of bases very fast. From there on I think, if both players play "properly", I think for Protoss, it is a game of cutting Phoenixes as soon as you have air control to leave gas for HTs, while for Terran, it is similar, trying to cut Vikings to make room for Banshee/Raven. HTs can't fly but Phoenixes are much faster than Vikings and can forge engagements or even just attack a bit and then run back out to regenerate shields, so I think the combination of slow HTs with fast Phoenixes should be OK. The HTs stop PDD, but I'm not sure what Protoss would do if Terran would just land his Vikings and kill everything xD
I found the replay I saw of a GM pure air terran game (though it sucks, so don't get excited)
I first started consider making OCs instead of PFs from what I remembered of this game. However, looking back, it looks like this "highish GM terran" played quite horribly. He had no harass and he did not utilize the strength of air terran - harassment and map control. Instead he just played like mech and turtled until he got a 200/200 army of BCs. Quite dumb I think =/. If he couldn't even go harass and take advantage of the style, I don't think he quite knew what he was doing either with the OCs. They both get to about 4 bases but then the terran suddenly stops; the protoss has realized already at this point that he has to get stargates and terran is going mass air, so he does get stargates and he gets up to 7+ bases while the terran stays on 4 the entire game. This was before Seeker Missile buff, but he still should have gotten it. It does so much damage vs Protoss air; at worst the Protoss will back off his units and the vikings will get more hits off (PDD doesn't work vs Voids!).
Also, he had horrible micro. He stacked up ALL his army into the AOE of just ONE single Storm, and didn't burn any of his energy nor stop making BCs after Protoss made a ton of HTs. After getting stormed, all his banshees stack up and the archons almost 2 shot everything.
So I want to know what you guys think but looking back I don't think this Terran knew what he was doing xD He lost his first 2 harassing banshees way too easily too.
Argg, played against this build last season, protoss has no reliable way to stop this besides a gas steal and even with that, its incredibly difficult to hold of.
Protoss units weren't built to hold off mass hair when its barely the midgame... and its almost impossible to hold off once they start getting momentum.
.__. how the hell do you stop this besides gassteal?
On November 14 2011 03:49 LanTAs wrote: Argg, played against this build last season, protoss has no reliable way to stop this besides a gas steal and even with that, its incredibly difficult to hold of.
Protoss units weren't built to hold off mass hair when its barely the midgame... and its almost impossible to hold off once they start getting momentum.
.__. how the hell do you stop this besides gassteal?
I have no idea lol, Protoss needs to stop Terran air, meaning Phoenixes (since voids and carriers die to vikings... except maybe carriers, but they need to be equal cost and carriers are pretty slow moving). However, Phoenixes can't shoot down so even if both players stay matched and 200/200 phoenix and 200/200 viking and split the map, the terran can just land all his vikings, kill some bases even with getting lifted up by graviton, and then the Phoenixes can't do shit since they can't kill the Terran's bases xD. Maybe though if the Protoss is good he can just kill all new Vikings as they build before they can gather up, and if he has 200/200 Phoenix then even a bunch of turrets won't do the trick. I haven't gotten this far with this strategy though.
I've seen one great hold of this by WhiteRa vs qxc, game was played a pretty long time ago (Metal close) - though I have no idea if qxc executed properly....yes I know how this sounds, but since this style is so underused, there is a lot of room for errors even for the elite players due to the lack of practice vs top-class opponents
EDIT: youtube never stops to surprise me....found it (and yay me for remembering that game played 8 months ago):
As a Protoss, I was hoping I'd never see something like this on here! I have such a hard time dealing with this style. Even after scouting it and throwing up reactive stargates, its just such a nightmare. Hopefully Terrans don't actually start using this frequently.
On November 14 2011 17:55 sleepingdog wrote: I've seen one great hold of this by WhiteRa vs qxc, game was played a pretty long time ago (Metal close) - though I have no idea if qxc executed properly....yes I know how this sounds, but since this style is so underused, there is a lot of room for errors even for the elite players due to the lack of practice vs top-class opponents
Omg this is like gold! Thank you sooo much for finding! I still can't find Korean GM replays and I probably won't find em for a while since... I don't know Korean .
Omg im skipping around and THIS REALLY IS GOLD!
Like you said it looks like both players could have done so much more, for example qxc kept stacking his units SO much against storm and Archons, flying into cannons, etc. And this is before Seeker Missile buff.
But then again, they also do a lot of things I haven't tried or think work that well. For example the Ghosts in the medivac. Since you can transport them in a medivac it is as if they fly (in other words, you can keep them with your air army!) so that is pretty cool.
Anyways, like Husky said, I think he sort of "threw" the game. He just lost SO much to the HTs, and he kept keeping his air army where he could storm even without vision. For example he could have split up his units instead of having them be all at one base, cus he let WhiteRa take equal bases since there was no threat.
Thanks again :D
Edit: Skipping around some more, omg I can't believe any progamer could stack his units so much o.o (check out 18:00).
Yeah this build is too strong. hoping for a nerf to terran och buff to protoss soon since stalkers are awful AA (finally a build that makes people realize that stalkers are purely awful)
So I'm reporting back after having tried the build around 400 masters. I have been having strong success with my first few attempts at the build. Have been opening with my TvT cloak banshee expand. Died to void ray all in and 1 base blink stalkers with obs but other then that no problems.
My concerns about phoenixes did turn out to be incorrect since your ability to churn out vikings is just so much stronger then protoss ability to make phoenixes even off 2 stargates.
I pretty much try to do some damage with my first couple banshees, then get 2-3 ravens and spam as many banshees as I can and go back and kill as many stalkers as I can until my PDDs run out, retreat, repair, build more banshees, wait for coupel PDDs and repeat. I have also been employing the mass expand to distant expansions as suggested, and pretty much ignoring upgrades. Seems very effective.
Hanv't faced HTs yet but I can't imagine they will be able to do any better then the phoenix response since I will have so many more banshees.
EPT
. If you still wanna do it you can skip cloak until later, i guess, and maybe get 2 more banshees instead of the raven/viking... not sure. If you do rax first though, usually they won't gas steal you.![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-230101.jpg)
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