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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
One thing I learned from watching my replays: Never, ever leave an area until all the pdd energy has been spent if there is still stuff to kill. I noticed I kept throwing down 4+ pdds and then leaving as soon as the main protoss army starts engaging. Some of the pdds were still at full energy. Oh, and sniping motherships with seeker missile is fun ^^ | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On November 12 2011 06:40 Quotidian wrote: Oh, and sniping motherships with seeker missile is fun ^^ Your TvPs sound infinitely more interesting than mine ;_; can i see that replay? | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
 edit: is replayfu not working? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
EDIT: maybe drop.sc is working? I usually use that. | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
This is the most baller strat I've seen in a long time. Its always fun to talk with friends and discuss crazy things that might be done, like pure baneling armies or void ray/pheonix/carrier/mothership. To actually go the next step and develop a build and in depth strategy and tactics concerning the idea is bold. For it to be refined and made viable is something you'll only see very seldom. Also, this guide is more comprehensive than anything I've seen in a long time. You have won over my heart. <3 11 out of 10. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On November 12 2011 07:52 Blazinghand wrote: Oh not because it would be educational, but because any game that involves seeker missiling a mothership to death sounds AWESOME :D EDIT: maybe drop.sc is working? I usually use that. http://drop.sc/57886 | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 12 2011 06:40 Quotidian wrote: I'm definitely going to be getting a faster raven instead of early cloak. Cloak generally doesn't seem to be that useful until you can start sniping observers, and you need ravens for that anyway. And I like the 4 banshee/200 energy raven timing I mentioned in a previous post. I'm leaning towards not getting cloak until I'm taking my 3rd, because you only need it to prevent feedback from killing your banshees anyway. One thing I learned from watching my replays: Never, ever leave an area until all the pdd energy has been spent if there is still stuff to kill. I noticed I kept throwing down 4+ pdds and then leaving as soon as the main protoss army starts engaging. Some of the pdds were still at full energy. Oh, and sniping motherships with seeker missile is fun ^^ that sounds hilarious xD Oh god haha can't wait. Also, getting Cloak later is interesting. But I agree with you, Cloak doesn't do toooo much. Ok, at my level, it does quite a lot (a few more probe kills at least) but as most people have pointed out, it's just cus their build is bad or they don't feel like making an observer, etc. etc. A 2 PDD timing + 4 Banshees sounds really strong, you can either go in and kill lots of Probes, some Stalkers, or specifically snipe a building (like cyber core or forge). @DrivenBatty I never even thought about hiding or spreading out my first 2 starports, thanks! I'm thinking now that I'll build my 2nd Starport somewhere hidden in my natural. If he comes to attack me I can just lift it back up into my main since it doesn't even have an add on until after finishing a viking. Unless perhaps the main is large and I hope his observer doesn't scout both starports. On November 12 2011 08:20 TheTurk wrote: This is incredible. This is the most baller strat I've seen in a long time. Its always fun to talk with friends and discuss crazy things that might be done, like pure baneling armies or void ray/pheonix/carrier/mothership. To actually go the next step and develop a build and in depth strategy and tactics concerning the idea is bold. For it to be refined and made viable is something you'll only see very seldom. Also, this guide is more comprehensive than anything I've seen in a long time. You have won over my heart. <3 11 out of 10. Thanks a lot for your kind comments <3 | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
I think having a ground army such as marines(early game) and hellions (late game) as mineral dump is good and really annoys stalkers if they go stalker heavy. And its good to go around harassing with a group of hellions or stimmed marines to outlying expansions which always seem to catch P off guard. | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
edit: back to one base all-ing or failing to get anything done with mmm, I guess.. or uninstalling. I'm strongly considering the latter. I've pretty much had it with the game. It's just not fun anymore. tvp is what made me play zerg and protoss down to gold level anyway. The match up is way too hard at the plat/dia level. It sucks so hard that there's no viable alternative to mmm... this build had me excited for a few hours. Ah well  QQ | ||
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Unsinkable
United States23 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
This is what Terran is about - Keeping the Protoss guessing. I've noticed TSL_Polt re-incoporating the 2 rax into his play, letting the Toss scout the gas and make them prepare for 1-1-1 and grab that eearly expansion, which of course will be Pwned by 2 rax and good micro. Terran may be hard as hell to play, but hiding information is certainly the strength of our fine race | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 12 2011 15:29 Quotidian wrote: I've changed my mind.. the build just shouldn't work. Two quick stargates and the protoss mass expanding nullifies it. My mmr is at gold level, and everyone is countering it with ease.. wtf edit: back to one base all-ing or failing to get anything done with mmm, I guess.. or uninstalling. I'm strongly considering the latter. I've pretty much had it with the game. It's just not fun anymore. tvp is what made me play zerg and protoss down to gold level anyway. The match up is way too hard at the plat/dia level. It sucks so hard that there's no viable alternative to mmm... this build had me excited for a few hours. Ah well QQupload a replay so i can help! you can't possibly just give up after encountering one thing that troubles you, or else you won't get far with that mindset. I've mentioned a couple pages back that if they get 2 stargates on 2 base, then you proceed to take more expansions your self and turtle vikings behind turrets. You can use OCs instead of PFs if he keeps up his 2 stargate production and keeps sticking with air + mass expanding. You'll need the MULEs since PFs can't shoot up and you need to stay matched in economy. If it's 2 stargates on 1 base, that's horrible and you should be able to just turtle Vikings while expanding ahead of him. On November 12 2011 15:43 Unsinkable wrote: Seriously? What's the difference between turtling and this? I don't see how it can improve your overall skill level at all, you make bunkers & planetary fortresses? This is a strategy that helps you gain ladder points but doesn't help you gain any skill at all. I can turtle & cheese my way up to grandmasters but I didn't improve my skills at all. You rely on sniping observers and you lift off your command center in a base trade situation. Seriously? You're not turtling. If Bio is focusing on harass, and Mech is focusing on defense, then Air is focusing on map control. What is skill? winning. Ugh I hate always having to argue about skill but... there is NO SUCH THING AS SKILL. Only your ability to win. Winning is the only concrete thing you can look at to determine how "strong" someone is. You can abstractly estimate a player's strength by guessing if he will win or lose against certain players in certain matches in certain events/tournies on certain maps in the future, but that's all abstract and subjective, hence opinion. If you win, then in the end, you're the better player. It seems like you just don't like this style of playing. If so, suit yourself. Is there something wrong with turtling? it is part of the game, learn it. Not that this build is ANYTHING close to turtling. It is the exact opposite. You want me to keep my CCs not lifted off? How stupid is that? Want me to lose? How is purposefully losing "skill"? I "rely" on sniping observers. For parts of the game. What does Bio rely on? Drops, forcing your opponent to fight in smaller engagements. Is there a problem with that? In the end the goal is to win. Mech relies on turtling, and then pushing forward at some point. What's the difference? If you turtle your way to GM, good job! Your turtling skills are useful for any kind of match. If you cheese your way to GM, good job! Your cheesing skills are great for use in Bo1 matches, and can come in handy in Bo3+ matches too. This build is not a cheese, hence this build takes "skill", or in other words, you can win with it and you can improve your chances of winning by improving your execution of this strategy. In all honesty you seem a bit mad for some reason. Go cool off somewhere else o.o | ||
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starfox0_0
United States29 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 12 2011 17:45 starfox0_0 wrote: As a Protoss player I have to find a way to counter this build. Scouting constantly, keeping constant pressure, sacrificing some phoenixes to snipe the ravens. It seems the only way to really beat this build is to kill the Terran off early or base trade mid game. I need to study this in order to find a flaw and theory craft. Until then I'm going to have to "study" this build on the ladder. Well the "proper" way to play against this is to go air yourself and take lots of bases. You can use that as a starting ground. Any base trade is going to be quite disadvantageous for Protoss, at least for the more standard ground compositions. | ||
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FaKeSC2
Germany78 Posts
Also, what would you say is the strongest time of that build? Is lategame your goal? Do you fear it? Or do you think it's most likely equal if you go into lategame? | ||
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kusu
Sweden440 Posts
On November 12 2011 16:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: You're not turtling. If Bio is focusing on harass, and Mech is focusing on defense, then Air is focusing on map control. What is skill? winning. Ugh I hate always having to argue about skill but... there is NO SUCH THING AS SKILL. Only your ability to win. Winning is the only concrete thing you can look at to determine how "strong" someone is. You can abstractly estimate a player's strength by guessing if he will win or lose against certain players in certain matches in certain events/tournies on certain maps in the future, but that's all abstract and subjective, hence opinion. If you win, then in the end, you're the better player. It seems like you just don't like this style of playing. If so, suit yourself. Is there something wrong with turtling? it is part of the game, learn it. Not that this build is ANYTHING close to turtling. It is the exact opposite. You want me to keep my CCs not lifted off? How stupid is that? Want me to lose? How is purposefully losing "skill"? I "rely" on sniping observers. For parts of the game. What does Bio rely on? Drops, forcing your opponent to fight in smaller engagements. Is there a problem with that? In the end the goal is to win. Mech relies on turtling, and then pushing forward at some point. What's the difference? If you turtle your way to GM, good job! Your turtling skills are useful for any kind of match. If you cheese your way to GM, good job! Your cheesing skills are great for use in Bo1 matches, and can come in handy in Bo3+ matches too. This build is not a cheese, hence this build takes "skill", or in other words, you can win with it and you can improve your chances of winning by improving your execution of this strategy. In all honesty you seem a bit mad for some reason. Go cool off somewhere else o.o Wow that was the best response I've seen in a while o.o... Thanks for keeping me motivated haha I like this style alot, but i'm so used to going bio so it's not going good at all :p haha. Gonna need MOAR practice.I'm considering opening like that old iEchoic build. hm,, gonna look more into it hihi | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Most protoss don't know how to deal with them because it's so rarely played. It are however pretty poor strats when the P does know how to shift away from his standard play. Air simply can't compete with phoenix play, phoenix do ok against viking and own banshee/raven. As long as you focus the banshee first, then stalkers can easily cleep up after the air fight. Many P simply don't get phoenix though because reactive phoenix are a bit poor sometimes, just like reactice phoenix suck against muta. Double starport is also just really rare. | ||
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Reapafied
65 Posts
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
On November 12 2011 22:50 Markwerf wrote: TvP mech and TvP air are both strats that work quite well when the protoss doesn't know how to deal with them. Most protoss don't know how to deal with them because it's so rarely played. It are however pretty poor strats when the P does know how to shift away from his standard play. Air simply can't compete with phoenix play, phoenix do ok against viking and own banshee/raven. As long as you focus the banshee first, then stalkers can easily cleep up after the air fight. Many P simply don't get phoenix though because reactive phoenix are a bit poor sometimes, just like reactice phoenix suck against muta. Double starport is also just really rare. I don't understand this line of reasoning. We all agree that most protoss are not reacting optimally. However, you...and many others on this thread...make the assertion that if they were playing optimally this build would fail...thus gimmick. You provide zero support for this conclusion and yet hold it as self evident. The OP has done a wonderful job explaining how to react against various P responses. His logic versus those counters appears sound and has worked in my experience. You make the point that Phoenix > all Terran Air?....citation needed. Even then you are talking about how units react in a vacuum and do not consider any other components of the build except for this theoretical engagement (you ignore economies, tech positions, map control, etc). Feedback is very welcome to those who post on TL. However, the feedback becomes toxic when the critic ignores important parts of the issue and asserts unsupported opinions. | ||
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Amongst the hatred of ghosts and mmmgv stim a move win, Terran bounces back, using units which are pretty unused in the matchup. Hooray for our versatility. I love how minerals simply aren't needed that much so we don't need MULES. | ||
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