EPT
But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.[G] TvP Pure Air - Page 9
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s15sLiDER
United States112 Posts
But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding. | ||
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kusu
Sweden440 Posts
when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways  | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway. On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made? | ||
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Absentia
United Kingdom973 Posts
Was pretty fun to try for a few games but it's not reliable enough to use as a long term strat in my opinion. Relies too much on the incompetence of your opponent. | ||
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On November 12 2011 03:15 Nuclease wrote: Please read my post that is right above this one. It tells a little bit about how I had a Terran harass me RELENTLESSLY with hellions and banshees while he expanded and built up his force. Seriously, you won't regret trying to harass. It can absolutely be done. I wasn't refering to this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283935¤tpage=7#130 :p | ||
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imEnex
Canada500 Posts
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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saltymango
United States120 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 12 2011 23:50 jrdn wrote: I don't understand this line of reasoning. We all agree that most protoss are not reacting optimally. However, you...and many others on this thread...make the assertion that if they were playing optimally this build would fail...thus gimmick. You provide zero support for this conclusion and yet hold it as self evident. The OP has done a wonderful job explaining how to react against various P responses. His logic versus those counters appears sound and has worked in my experience. You make the point that Phoenix > all Terran Air?....citation needed. Even then you are talking about how units react in a vacuum and do not consider any other components of the build except for this theoretical engagement (you ignore economies, tech positions, map control, etc). Feedback is very welcome to those who post on TL. However, the feedback becomes toxic when the critic ignores important parts of the issue and asserts unsupported opinions. Yup thank you, in your example Markwerf you do not take in account the unit costs nor that Phoenixes don't shoot ground units. On November 13 2011 00:08 Micket wrote: Considering most Protoss players would just mass stalkers, this seems awesome. Amongst the hatred of ghosts and mmmgv stim a move win, Terran bounces back, using units which are pretty unused in the matchup. Hooray for our versatility. I love how minerals simply aren't needed that much so we don't need MULES. Yeah no more complaining "MULES OP" right? xD On November 13 2011 01:15 s15sLiDER wrote: I don't think I would bother with a PF expand in all honesty. I'd go for a second OC and just get building armor with 3 bunkers filled with marines. You'd save 50 gas I think and that is like half a banshee But your minerals would be so much better off for more agressive expanding.Well perhaps on maps with really small nats/chokes like Shakuras, but even then the 3 Bunkers can't give the same kind of protection a PF has. The 3 bunkers are spread out so they can't all cover everything at once. Also, getting 2 more Bunkers + 8 marines = 600 minerals, that will severely delay your natural and you won't have it up safely against a 2 gate protoss push. On November 13 2011 03:34 Quotidian wrote: I forgot to make a PF at my nat one game, and the result was that the protoss player blinked in and killed off a lot of stuff when I was attacking one of his distant expos. You want the PF to prevent that stuff - it's more important than the mineral boost from mules anyway. that's basically the direct counter to it. I think a lot of terran players are sick of MMM builds, so there's probably a lot more people trying air right now, and so protoss players don't just freak out and keep making only blink stalkers. I'd try and get some BCs at that point.. It's pretty much impossible to transition out of this build, so BCs and more ravens seems like the only way to go. And maybe get tanks out of the one factory you've made? I would really really like to see some replays because many of you are saying "this is the counter!" without showing any replays. I've explained how to deal with that response. Make Vikings to match air superiority and take expansions yourself, preferably OCs since you need MULEs to keep up with chronoboosted Probes. His army won't be stronger because Vikings deal well enough with Phoenixes, meaning he will have NO army. Any army he could possibly have would be pure minerals, meaning Zealots, and Hellions do well against those, even bunkers+marines. If he cuts Phoenixes to make stalkers, you cut Vikings and make Banshees, and in the end you still end up with a slightly more mobile force because Stalkers can't fly and it doesn't matter if Phoenixes are faster than Viking/Banshee because you don't need to run away from the Phoenixes. On November 13 2011 03:49 Absentia wrote: It gets owned by High Templar spam and mass cannons/expanding. Was pretty fun to try for a few games but it's not reliable enough to use as a long term strat in my opinion. Relies too much on the incompetence of your opponent. If you can give a replay then it would be greatly appreciated. I have no such problems against HT spam and mass cannon/expanding. On November 13 2011 04:25 Dbla08 wrote: have to give you props for a well put together guide, but this just seems like bancheese into doing so much damage you win the game anyways and get to pick w/e composition you want to win. and the point of not having to attack is always true when you get that much of a lead, you can have the same affect of using mass drops with bio if you kill so many workers with cloaked banshees. i suppose not a waste, just a lot of effort into a strategy that isn't too difficult to figure out. seems like alot of people just don't know how to respond to mass air or aren't good at defending vs banshees. and what's been said before about hts is prudent, iirc all of your air units except vikings have energy, so they can be feedbacked, and iirc only the battlecruiser can't be 1 shotted by it at full energy, and air units spread so slowly (and ravens move so slowly in general) i think storms would wreck your day very quickly. also, some of the examples used here are kind of irrelevant, if you kill half or more of their workers with your first few banshees the game is pretty much over at that point. the mass air follow up is just another way to win after you've already taken a massive lead If you check my replays, in most of the ones where I kill many Probes, it tends to be because Protoss has chosen to focus on economy. Meaning, even though in some games I kill more Probes than others, he still has more or equal the economy I do. It is at that point that I take my natural, and we both produce out of 2 Nexus/CC, and I quickly get more ahead in bases and outproduce him. In some of the games I will kill several Probes but he will still have 37 vs my 27 ish, yet I am still able to win. Like I said in the guide, 1 HT could have been 3 stalkers or even 1.5 Phoenix. Don't attack HT there is no need to. They can't fly, they can't defend. Burn your energy with cloak and stop making ravens or just don't approach his army with them; go make turrets at his bases instead. BCs, don't make either. On November 13 2011 04:35 saltymango wrote: i've been meeting this build alot its incredibly frustrating to play against especially if they denie scouting and u think its just regular banshee harrass at the beginning.throwing up 2 starports and getting lotsa observers completley hard counters this but as i said its difficult to see it in time to react. I'm glad to be hearing people are using this on ladder now? But at the same time worried that my build will be too figured out and my opponents will be more challenging  However, 2 Stargates does not hard counter this build. By the time you find out he's getting 2 Starports, the banshee harass stage early game is already over and Terran's nat will be up meaning your two economies will be the same. If it's the same, you can't afford any kind of stalker army without cutting your Phoenix production, and if you cut Phoenix production, it means you don't have air control. If he doesn't cut Phoenix production, it'll be a fun/lulzy game of mass Air Anti-Air armies haha. Except that Vikings can land, kekekekek (Phoenixes can pick them up though so it's not that big a deal, and if the Vikings get back into air mode then the Phoenixes will get a bit of dmg off before the Vikings finish transforming). Most protoss may not know how to respond to terran doing this strategy, but many terrans might not know how to respond correctly to a protoss air response neither. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Get enough minerals to spam expos and enough gas to fund your starport habit. If you get hit hard before that then you lose. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 12 2011 22:12 FaKeSC2 wrote: Very interesting build and great explanations. I am currently using Mech in low-masters since I don't like bio in TvP. What I am wondering about is, if that build is viable in a bo3 or bo5? Or is it a one-shot-cannon? Do you beat good players when they know you're doing that build? Do you think they will be able to beat it in the near future and that you re just winning at the moment because it's not popular, yet? Also, what would you say is the strongest time of that build? Is lategame your goal? Do you fear it? Or do you think it's most likely equal if you go into lategame? I think the build is "viable" in a Bo3 or Bo5 but of course it depends on your strategy/approach to the match. For example, we all agree that 1 Rax Expand is a very safe, standard build. You can do this every set of a Bo5 or such match, right? However, if you fail to scout your opponent properly, he might just come in with a 4 gate WP sentry drop and kill you. Likewise, if you do this specific build to get mass air, he might just come out with a 4 gate and kill you. However, in both situations there is time to scout or adapt. So I would say yes it is viable in a Bo3 or Bo5, but you probably don't want to be using any 1 strategy every game, even if it is 1 Rax Expand, but it all depends on the builds you've practiced, how comfortable you are with each build, etc. On November 13 2011 06:21 Antisocialmunky wrote: You still have to reach a critical mass where you can: Get enough minerals to spam expos and enough gas to fund your starport habit. If you get hit hard before that then you lose. Can you give more specific examples? If you mean critical mass as in an air army to deal with ground army (or if you mean air army, please elaborate), then you don't need to engage it. Cannons don't do that well and leaving 1 HT as defense at each base can help but it isn't going to completely shut down harass, and it means supply that's not in your main army. I find that the "get hit hard before that" is only early game, up until I get the PF. Once I get it up I feel extremely safe and my CC production skyrockets. If you get 816 minerals per base, and you have two, that's 1632 minerals, plus about 125 for that 1 MULE, so about 1850. If you only get 450 gas max on 2 base, that's like 4 Banshees, meaning you have 1000 minerals per minute left over after supply depots. Of course when your PF is up you won't have full saturation, but you'll already be pooling up a lot of minerals in comparison to your Protoss opponent who, if he doesn't get air, will be using most of it. And if he does go air, then it's just a matter of both players taking a shit ton of bases xD. On November 12 2011 22:41 kusu wrote: Wow that was the best response I've seen in a while o.o... Thanks for keeping me motivated haha I like this style alot, but i'm so used to going bio so it's not going good at all :p haha. Gonna need MOAR practice.I'm considering opening like that old iEchoic build. hm,, gonna look more into it hihi If I could keep you motivated, then that's pretty cool, cus the purpose of that post of mine was far from that, haha. I'm glad you like it! It you want to practice it, I think one of the most important parts is multitasking. So if you can just make a random map with a few protoss bases with a couple cannons at each and some stalkers and/or observers and/or HTs and just give yourself a random variety of air units at each one, and just do that for an hour, it should help a lot. Maybe even have a friend play as protoss, it can help him out too! | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 13 2011 01:54 kusu wrote: Hm, faced a guy who had seen it before. he went double phoenix and expanded alot with mass cannon... when seeing that i should just turtle and expand?. He will be able to expand as much as me. Just feels like his army will be stronger and crush me anyways Turtle Vikings behind 1 or 2 turrets while mass expanding and making OCs instead of PFs. Take positions that are harder for ground units to get to, or areas that can be defended by ground later on by PFs. (Make PFs once you have air superiority and he begins to make ground army for offense, but this kind of Protoss response seems like a bad idea. So if he sticks with mass air, just keep making OCs, stay up in econ, and mass Vikings with maybe some Ravens for PDD. Lategame, make BCs to help deal with Phoenixes or to Yamato Carriers/Voids, but Vikings are quite quite good since their cost ratio is 2:1 mineral:gas). On November 13 2011 08:56 Antisocialmunky wrote: I mean that you need to be able to get to the critical point in your economy where you can get enough mineral income to start spamming pforts and I find it really hard if you go for a Pfort in your natural. Oh ok. Maybe share replay? On maps like Shakuras maybe you can get away with 2 bunkers of marines near the ramp and an OC, and then 1-2 more bunkers of marines later on. I've been getting more ideas and thinking what if you take the natural very far away and keep expanding but make only OCs with good splitting up of buildings (make 3rd and 4th starport at expansion as well as all new depots, etc., and then make new stuff at the new third base, etc. etc.) You can make even more CCs even though he will be able to kill them and his ground army won't suffer some numbers. | ||
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astroorion
United States1022 Posts
What do you do when the Protoss starts making HT to feedback Banshee/Raven/Battlecrusier, then they make archons to annihilate everything if it's clumped up? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 13 2011 09:53 astroorion wrote: I have a question (I'm only a Plat Protoss so I hope this sounds correct): What do you do when the Protoss starts making HT to feedback Banshee/Raven/Battlecrusier, then they make archons to annihilate everything if it's clumped up? HT = less stalkers, less mobility. Answer is to harass more and slowly make more banshees and stop viking/raven and don't get BCs. If you must engage or harass a base and there is a defending HT(s) there, then cloak-decloak quickly to drain energy. Then it's a waste of 150 gas which could have been 3 stalkers or 1.5 Phoenixes. Archons are only 3 range so it's quite easy to kite them, and they are even less mobile than Stalkers. Pretty much any kind of ground force loses vs this style, you have to focus on air. Just remember there is no way the Protoss can force you to engage his HTs, so there is no danger. If he gets enough HTs and your army has enough % of banshees, u can just drain all energy and kill his army since he'll have so many less stalkers. 5 HTs could have been 15 Stalkers (2/0/2 or so), which is about as strong as 10 Banshees (0/0). | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
On November 09 2011 13:38 FinestHour wrote: Its not new, people have tried this before like i said with banshees makin up your army and then bcs. Its good, this is just a variation under a really detailed and extensive guide, I must say. well maybe you and many other randoms on the internet have used this strategy but that doesn't mean it's seen the light of day in competitive play. I saw TvT on GSL that was sky terran style (I think it was TOP) but never saw anything like this in TvP. With that said, yeah you are probably going to be getting a lot of free wins because it's hard to react to and most protoss these days play a general style to try and stop a bunch of different cheese. I think the one thing that made me feel uncomfortable with this build is that you are getting a planetary at your natural, I've never seen a pro ever decide to do that which makes me question the authenticity of this build. besides that toss in that video on metal wasn't very good | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On November 13 2011 13:24 emc wrote: well maybe you and many other randoms on the internet have used this strategy but that doesn't mean it's seen the light of day in competitive play. I saw TvT on GSL that was sky terran style (I think it was TOP) but never saw anything like this in TvP. With that said, yeah you are probably going to be getting a lot of free wins because it's hard to react to and most protoss these days play a general style to try and stop a bunch of different cheese. I think the one thing that made me feel uncomfortable with this build is that you are getting a planetary at your natural, I've never seen a pro ever decide to do that which makes me question the authenticity of this build. I say try it out to see for yourself . Then again, no pro has went pure air TvP eh?Or you can watch some of my many replays. The PF gives you much needed defense and lets you survive into the midgame. If he comes to attack you, he will lose. You will have 3 base, he will have 2. By the time he reaches your base, he will have lost one of those bases, and by the time he kills either your nat or your third or even your main, he will have lost the second one. He won't have enough units to defend and also attack at the same time. He'll have to go through 1 mass repaired-PF two times, and then still have to deal with a army with cloak+PDD and that can float in space safely to get more energy back. I've beaten a GM and other top masters with this strategy, so I think you can safely say that it is "authentic". If any mid masters player were to play a GM, they would most definitely lose almost every game, but that's not the case. Even if these significantly better opponents didn't react in the best way in the beginning, they should still be able to easily win by adapting mid-game with their much higher game sense / macro especially since they usually have better economy than me, but that is not the case. Also, I've said multiple times throughout both this guide and the video. That game on metal is not to show "OMG look at how good this build is!" it is to show what a typical ladder game is like. I even said that the Protoss was clueless and confused. I think you should read more of the guide before giving feedback. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Havn't done this style of play recently but my main issue when I was using a similar style is that stalkers beat banshees for gas cost. So basically if the protoss makes a ton of blink stalkers, you can't ever beat him and he will slowly pick away your at your army. You might do well if you pick off the obs, but if they make multiple obs they will just own you since gas is the limiting factor in this type of game. This issue is compounded because stalker production starts before banshee production can get started so they will be ahead to begin with. Finally if they do switch to pheonix, you will have a tough time producing JUST enough vikings to deal with them, and if you overproduce, you will fall further behind on the banshee stalker front. In my experience the build is dependent upon observer sniping or poor reactions, which makes me really sad because I really like the idea. Perhaps with the addition of ravens it works...its really hard to make cost calculations once ravens are added in. I will finish by saying that your post has inspired me to give it another shot, even though I am not confident that the math works out. | ||
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