EPTOn November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote:
So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this?
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons
[G] TvP Pure Air - Page 6
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:17 BushidoSnipr wrote: Maybe Hero-esque type of play, with lots of Nexi and photon cannons I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:22 Blazinghand wrote: I was under the impression that phoenix traded cost-effectively with vikings-- and if you could win the air battle, these units would be able to run down and defeat the remaining banshees with their superior speed. Do PDDs significantly affect this? Yeah PDD helps a lot, but i think getting +1 attack or +1 defense might be better than getting 1 Raven for 1 PDD. Since Protoss has to upgrade shield, air weapon, and air armor, they upgrade much slower than you (or at least, have to spend more) who has to only upgrade 2 things. Anyway, if your army does get caught, you can kite your way all the way back home with the Vikings to try to save some units. But yeah if Protoss gets an early expansion like they usually do, and he figures out what your'e doing pretty quickly and masses Phoenixes (2 Stargates), then you'll be stuck on 1 base massing Vikings and be a bit behind since your 2nd base won't be running yet. In this case I think it would be best to try to catch up with a faster third since SCVs+MULE allows you to gather a bit more minerals on 1 base than Protoss can, and maybe even cut Vikings to build an in-base CC first, then turtle Vikings a bit behind Turrets until you can somehow catch up in economy while upgrading +1/+1 air. | ||
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GGPope
Australia367 Posts
Nonetheless cool guide with some interesting concepts, might try out a couple of things suggested in here. | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On November 11 2011 07:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah PDD helps a lot, but i think getting +1 attack or +1 defense might be better than getting 1 Raven for 1 PDD. Since Protoss has to upgrade shield, air weapon, and air armor, they upgrade much slower than you (or at least, have to spend more) who has to only upgrade 2 things. Anyway, if your army does get caught, you can kite your way all the way back home with the Vikings to try to save some units. But yeah if Protoss gets an early expansion like they usually do, and he figures out what your'e doing pretty quickly and masses Phoenixes (2 Stargates), then you'll be stuck on 1 base massing Vikings and be a bit behind since your 2nd base won't be running yet. In this case I think it would be best to try to catch up with a faster third since SCVs+MULE allows you to gather a bit more minerals on 1 base than Protoss can, and maybe even cut Vikings to build an in-base CC first, then turtle Vikings a bit behind Turrets until you can somehow catch up in economy while upgrading +1/+1 air. Just IMO, 2 gate stargate is a huge commitment for Toss compared to even a 2 port for Terran. You should try and create a transition if you scout an air counter. Your expo would just be about a late 1-1-1 expand. I suppose if you were extra crazy, you could just make a BC to tank. I'd be more afraid of really good cannon placement and blink than a 2 port. Either way, that's a ridiculously detailed guide, congrats! | ||
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ColBradshaw
United States1 Post
I love your detailed guide, because the 7min rush just feels too easy lol. Hopefully I can get this build down for when I eventually move out of silver. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On November 11 2011 11:10 Antisocialmunky wrote: Just IMO, 2 gate stargate is a huge commitment for Toss compared to even a 2 port for Terran. You should try and create a transition if you scout an air counter. Your expo would just be about a late 1-1-1 expand. I suppose if you were extra crazy, you could just make a BC to tank. I'd be more afraid of really good cannon placement and blink than a 2 port. Either way, that's a ridiculously detailed guide, congrats! Yep, that's what I want to focus on next. Cus right now I'm only winning mostly because they're not responding in the best way possible. Well I was thinking, if you can get 2 Stargate (which would be able to match terran's air) Protoss can just keep expanding, and since he already has 1 expo ahead, then it would be a direct "counter", though maybe only a soft one. But perhaps some kind of adaptation taking advantage of him lacking a Robo could work. Maybe like putting down more Barracks and making medivacs out of your 2 Starports and prepare a stim timing vs his slow zealots (not much gas for stalkers/sentries). Hopefully there's something out there that can work xD. Actually I just realized. If he's going 1 gate expand, then his first observer should be out at around 7:00. But he can't go out to scout your base with it since you'll have cloak ready to harass at 7:30. If he is smart/safe and makes 2 observers, then he'll be OK at home but still lose some probes due to hitting both Protoss' base with only 1 observer at home. If he moves out his first observer to scout after the 2nd one finishes building, it'll arrive at about 8:00. So it is not until 8:00 that he will find out you have 2 Starports. If he puts down 2 Stargates, they'll finish at about 9:00. So actually this is quite late in the game already, and the situation I described earlier isn't realistic since 9:00 still allows your banshees to harass and for you to get your expansion out at the same time, meaning the economic situation will still be about the same (you would be several workers behind, but should have killed some during harass). So perhaps if you turtle up and build Ravens to stock up on energy, you can get a third up really quick to take advantage of the Phoenixes instead of making Vikings (use turrets/repair to keep ravens alive). And if that somehow won't work you'll have lots of time to catch up in viking count. Tl;dr If he gets 2 stargate phoenix to try to gain air superiority, it will be too late and the economic situation will be the same since they won't be out fast enough to stop the first 2 banshees' harsas; if my thoughts are correct you can easily counter 2 stargate phoenix by turtling ravens over your natural's turrets and take a third and fourth much quicker than usual. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
You could always try and go Marine/repair Thor/Banshee all-in against star gate I guess. No robo = no immortal | ||
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On November 11 2011 13:35 Antisocialmunky wrote: You can always hide your 2nd port in a corner of one of these huge frigin maps. If his obs is either trying to get in your base or in his base, or dead, then how is he going to find it unless he has good starsense for banshee counts. You could always try and go Marine/repair Thor/Banshee all-in against star gate I guess. No robo = no immortal Hah you're right. You could build it somewhere and even take your 2nd base there instead of at home. That way it would look completely like a 1 basing 1-1-1, except he won't see your marines xD. Could confuse him though. I totally forgot about those kinds of 1-1-1 all-ins. If you put down 2 more barracks at ~9 and push at 11, you could attack with 15 marines 1 thor and 4 banshees with cloak. You'll have 50 energy at 11 minute mark. Even if he has observers you could scan and snipe the observers with the thor/marines... if he waits out the scan, it should give you enough time to kill his expansion and that would allow you to win. He'll have 4 almost 6 phoenix ready but that shouldn't be enough to kill 4 banshees fast enough before his Phoenix die. Even if he doesn't make phoenixes he probably won't have enough stalkers to deal with 4 banshees right? Well actually when I'm talking about 2 stargate i mean he gets a robo first too for observers. But if he makes immortals the banshees+marine focus fire on it should make it easy. Then he will have wasted 300 gas for the stargates as long as you don't let him scout you... but i think it would be too easy for him just to poke in with an observer =/ On November 11 2011 13:46 Quotidian wrote: What do you think about going raven -> expo and then harass, delaying the banshees a bit? I've had some success with a 200 energy raven/4 banshee timing to try and snipe tech or just whittle the protoss army down some. And it's the safest you can get vs DT rushes. I've been trying work that timing into a raven-expand build, but it's really easy to die to early aggression... but then I've never made a PF at my natural, it never even occurred to me. That sounds interesting, but how do you defend your expansion? Do you use marines or maybe siege tank? Maybe a build like that could also be very good, make expansion a PF and stock up on ravens? though phoenixes would be a problem unless you want to try to out expand protoss and just not harass him o.o | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this? Storm and Feedback. Feedback on Banshees/BCs/PDD. Storm on clumped air units. Then just standard ground composition for the most part. Focused more on Stalkers of course. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
On November 11 2011 15:59 Tump wrote: Storm and Feedback. Feedback on Banshees/BCs/PDD. Storm on clumped air units. Then just standard ground composition for the most part. Focused more on Stalkers of course. Well to my experience there's no way he can force you to attack, so all you need to do is capitalize on his now significantly lower stalker numbers by making only banshees, draining their energy, and magic boxing storm, possibly over his army to stop him from storming his own HTs. On November 11 2011 15:53 Ganseng wrote: dude i feel that you're really good at this game. you probably could be in GML if you played standard style and not your I can dream. But I don't think I can play "standard" kekek. Not without practicing a lot at least =) | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
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superalby
16 Posts
Thanks a ton! <3 | ||
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Asday
United Kingdom388 Posts
For some reason, the dude you were against did some sloppy 5 gate double upgrade with immortals timing push, and MASSIVELY skimped on cannons, and got charge. And never spent chrono. Still, though, you had 4 banshees and that's it, at one point, and he had a buttload of stalkers, and some worthless immortals and gateway units. Had he gone for blink instead of charge, and had less awful observer positioning, he could very easily have blinked into your main, and very easily killed maybe your OC, definitely 3 tech labs, maybe 3 star ports, and maybe even a starport chilling in your natural. I didn't understand his build at all, but in a lot of games, I see you dead as shit, but your opponent backs off, confused by the PF, or is doing a fuckawful build, or something. I'm fairly convinced they can take little to no damage in the midgame (before you switch into HEAVY Raven mode), by simply having 1 or 2 cannons peppered around bases, and warping in stalkers, while being active with a super mobile force of blink stalkers around the map, buying him the time and footing to get onto 3 base more favourably than you, (chronoprobes), and maybe even 4 base. From here, they have a robo and +2, (or +1 +1), leaving them open to transition into pretty much any endgamey unit mix they want, which forces you to transition into something more substantial, or you'll just lose shit, which is much harder for you than them. Thoughts? (Also, you say Cloak -> Corvid -> HSM, but I only ever see Corvid appearing mid to lategame, way after HSM, after the Raven powering, and sometimes (I think), after the fusion core. What's going on?) (Also also, what's your fusion core timing/trigger, and why do you get behemoth?) Thank you. | ||
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T0fuuu
Australia2275 Posts
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Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On November 11 2011 14:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: That sounds interesting, but how do you defend your expansion? Do you use marines or maybe siege tank? Maybe a build like that could also be very good, make expansion a PF and stock up on ravens? though phoenixes would be a problem unless you want to try to out expand protoss and just not harass him o.o Here's kind of what I was thinking. http://replayfu.com/r/59d81ee7565d928d9443f0a38357aa74 Basically, take SCVs off gas after starport + 200 gas briefly until you get enough for a CC. The AI tends to do these weird rushes though.. but the expo is getting up right when most protoss timings hit, so this opening would probably die to pretty much anything. I guess it's too greedy. But if the PF gets up, and the bunkers are placed better, I think most protoss players would just go back to their base instead of attacking. Thoughts? Any way to tweak it to be safer without getting more barracks or something? | ||
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