EPT[G] TvP Pure Air - Page 5
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
On November 10 2011 11:00 tomatriedes wrote: So what's the best way for protoss to counter something like this? Not sure if it's the best way nor a real counter, but a good way of dealing with this style seems to be taking a lot of expansions early just like Terran and make lots of well placed Photon Cannons to slow down Banshee Harass and burn some energy for PDDs while making Phoenixes. Tech to HTs and, when appropriate, add Void Rays and Carriers and a few support Stalkers to start harassing or killing Terran bases. I mentioned something about this in the "vs lots of base and air" section vs Lots of Nexus and Cannons, then Air + Stalker/HT support So far, this seems to be the proper way to play vs this style of Air Terran, but most players will not recognize or know that you will be massing air units and playing completely unstandard. Not necessarily a counter, but you won't be able to stay on pure air much longer, just like how you can't mass Marines lategame TvZ unless you're Automaton 2000 and you can't rely on just Tank Hellion TvP since without Ghosts, Immortals will rape you. You'll have to get Marines and/or Marauders and/or Hellions to kill HTs and maybe even Stalkers if they have some of them. With your minerals, you can make turrets to fortify or stop air pathways; Turrets are REALLY strong even against Void Rays. Just make sure you're not wasting minerals on Turrets instead of bases, you do not want to be behind Protoss in bases. Remember, you don't have more than 1 MULE! There was a replay of someone really owning me by playing air style, I'll find it sometime! You can also just 3 Gate Stargate to kill him... For more standard play, you can watch the first and third "Top Masters" replay. Against Stalker/HT and then Air vs Air, check out the second "Top Masters" replay. On November 10 2011 04:17 coL.rsvp wrote: This is one of the best guides I've seen. Good job, and thanks! I've definitely lost to this before and it'll kill any protoss who doesn't expect it and/or tries to play standard. Thanks a lot! It's good to hear that it works even in GM+ level still  . I was thinking maybe at higher levels vs terran air, "standard" (aka mainly ground units) could deal with terran air, but I guess not? If it's air vs air is it about equal or is Protoss significantly advantaged? Cus I was thinking if you're both pumping Phoenixes and Vikings for air superiority, if you make PFs like I suggest then that means you won't have MULEs and Protoss, with chronoboost, should be able to out-econ you easily. But perhaps if the "proper" response is air vs air, then there wouldn't be a need to get PFs instead of OCs. | ||
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UglyBastard
Germany53 Posts
Double win. And had quite a good time while doing it! Thanks for the guide, really nice strat! | ||
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ggofthejungle
Romania392 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
On November 10 2011 14:47 ggofthejungle wrote: I'm assuming this won't work in HOTS because of that new protoss unit that deals splash damage? I'm hoping not. But what Dustin and David Kim said about Tempest is contradictory. One of the said something like "it basically mass counters all air units" and "so you can gain air superiority" i think that was Dustin. But David Kim seemed to talk about it more like it was just to counter Mass Mutas, aka lots of light flying units. From what it looks like David Kim is more right. Anyways, I can't imagine it being too hard to deal with Mass Tempest since Vikings have 9 Range and you can Yamato them too. Just split up your forces, I guess. Vikings have 9 range so that won't be too hard and BCs are pretty big so magic boxing them will be great. Tempests aren't that fast though so you can still harass him in multiple locations. I wonder if you can even PDD the Tempest xD (probably not) | ||
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
thje combination of cloacked banshee and viking (2-3) can be painfully strong in the early to midgame if P doesnt have enough observer. Scan... Viking will shoot observer....do damage with banshee. Anyway, good guide. | ||
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treekiller
United States236 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:00 HTX wrote: You probably mentioned it somewhere but to read through it will take day. thje combination of cloacked banshee and viking (2-3) can be painfully strong in the early to midgame if P doesnt have enough observer. Scan... Viking will shoot observer....do damage with banshee. Anyway, good guide. I've actually been thinking about making more OCs for Scans so that you can save gas for banshees instead of Ravens (up to 2 more bashees per raven). Except for lategame where the banshees will take too much food (6 food per 2 food), it might be better to have more banshees than to have PDD/Seeker Missile (which needs to be upgraded anyways). Do you have any input on this? On November 10 2011 16:13 treekiller wrote: No need to worry about people copying your build. Its not gonna change the metagame. Its a nice cheese though, grats. Please read again, I was worried people would figure out this build and know how to play against it. To say something won't change the metagame is false. Every single little piece of information that even one player receives will change the metagame. That's what the metagame is; all the different outside aspects affecting any game of Starcraft. Also, it's not a cheese, so I can't take your congratulations. You don't automatically lose if this build is scouted, and there's nothing to hide either. I've seen you post before, why are you so cynical? | ||
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IGotPlayguuu
Italy660 Posts
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
sick post | ||
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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
On November 10 2011 21:10 tuestresfat wrote: ugh god, I'm pretty sure you raped me on ladder the other day. It's people like you that keep ladder interesting though sick postHeheh what is your username? I don't recognize "tuestresfat". If I played you recently (within a few days) our replay should be there xD And thanks | ||
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spbelky
United States623 Posts
We can only hope. Good guide, very detailed. | ||
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scruffeh
England196 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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OlDan
Austria36 Posts
It was fun while it lasted, on mid-diamond EU ladder. | ||
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
I doubt it'll catch on with the pros, since it does seem vulnerable to huge counterattacks (blinking up into your main, mothership mass recall scenarios, etc.) I'd get neosteel frames for my bunkers too, just to be ultra-safe. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10374 Posts
On November 11 2011 04:12 OlDan wrote: Hey, just tried this out, but got owned by the guy simply running over my main. He placed cannons in exp, and altho i managed to kill his third, he just rolled me. My macro was relatively poor, but i dont think another 5-6 banshees would've helped me. I was floating a lot of minerals, but not that much gas. The exp was quite protected, but went down because of lack of an army. Maybe i misclicked repair on the PF natural as well, who knows It was fun while it lasted, on mid-diamond EU ladder. If you'd like you can upload the replay so I can comment on it On November 11 2011 04:28 Honeybadger wrote: I love this idea. Making your natural a PF just so you can use banshees like mutalisks makes me smile. I doubt it'll catch on with the pros, since it does seem vulnerable to huge counterattacks (blinking up into your main, mothership mass recall scenarios, etc.) I'd get neosteel frames for my bunkers too, just to be ultra-safe. It probably won't be standard or anything of course, but it might be seen sometime in the future as a surprise strategy/build. Since it's ideal to use builds like 1 rax expand or 1 gate expand which focus on economy without being unsafe, therefore providing flexibility and easy transition into the midgame, there's no reason to use this build or some kind of air tech strategy since it leaves you open to builds like 3 Gate Stargate or other 1 bases rushes. It is vulnerable to counterattacks, but the point is that by the time he reaches one of your bases, you will have already killed one of his with your air units that are camping. By the time he kills one of your bases, you will have killed another already. So it's 1 base trade vs 2. If it keeps going on, it'll be 2 vs 3, 3 vs 4, etc. But the thing is, you should have more bases if you play well, meaning that it's really disadvantageous to Protoss. Basically he needs to play an air style vs your own air style or else he'll lose. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
On November 11 2011 05:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: It is vulnerable to counterattacks, but the point is that by the time he reaches one of your bases, you will have already killed one of his with your air units that are camping. By the time he kills one of your bases, you will have killed another already. So it's 1 base trade vs 2. If it keeps going on, it'll be 2 vs 3, 3 vs 4, etc. But the thing is, you should have more bases if you play well, meaning that it's really disadvantageous to Protoss. Basically he needs to play an air style vs your own air style or else he'll lose. This is essentially correct. Banshees trade favorably with gateway units, and any investment into robotics units is just more money that can't shoot up. The fast-moving, fast-producing phoenixes are a better answer. Also, the mobility of banshees gives them an advantage in base trade situations, and they have other benefits such as cloak and repair that only add to the strength of terran air play. | ||
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Brotatolol
United States1742 Posts
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