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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays  If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD
Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway.
But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass.
If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
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This is very interesting. It's similar to the popular mass muta in ZvP but potentially even stronger because archons aren't as good and you have PF and mass repair. The only difference is that it's worse to lose your units for Terran since you can't reproduce as quickly and you don't have cheap spines to spam, instead you have PFs only.
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On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF.
I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game.
To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss?
Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons.
Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
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Really nice guide. I play Protoss so, I essentially hate you 
I have no idea how to counter pure mass air. Same thing with marauder hellion pushes. It seems like all the weird timings and comps have weird counters that nobody seems to know yet, I hope stuff like this doesn't become mainstream tbh.
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Amazing guide, I'll definitely try this out. :D
And now I want to see pure air v. pure air. :/
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On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings.
I still have a lot to add but for now...
vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual.
But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD
Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T.
However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too.
To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position.
On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against).
Kk thanks let's play sometime .
On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun.
Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended.
Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
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On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
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On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans.
To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth).
Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha
One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg.
I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
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On November 09 2011 15:11 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth). Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd.
Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible?
On November 09 2011 15:13 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg. I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out.
K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
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United States7483 Posts
On November 09 2011 15:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:11 Azzur wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth). Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd. Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible? Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:13 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg. I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out. K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
You don't see it often because terran usually has more than one orbital, and just needs to turtle up with a lot of bio and scan to shut it down, and people just expect bio all the time so don't plan for it. But it does occur sometimes, and DT expand isn't completely dead as a build (although honestly it should be).
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On November 09 2011 15:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:11 Azzur wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth). Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd. Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible? Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:13 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg. I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out. K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD
I used to make raven first in my build and this would auto-win against a DT opener. However, I found making the banshee + cloak first more effective against other builds (e.g. 3-gate 1-star, 1-gate FE, 4-gate, 3-gate expo, etc), but then I started losing against 1-base DTs. I deal with 1-base DTs similar to what I said in my previous post. I save a scan and then get the raven out (without cancelling the banshee). Whilst waiting for the raven, I'll just repair the wall.
The banshee + cloak is an auto-win if the protoss expands behind.
If the protoss gets robo, I'll still most likely be able get some probe kills and then a marine/banshee/raven + pdd timing attack will win.
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On November 09 2011 15:21 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:14 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 15:11 Azzur wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. To deal with an early DT opener, for example, if you scout 2-gas, save a scan while you get the raven out. If you go banshee + cloak first, the DT will be at your base before the raven and hence this is necessary. If it's one gas, I don't think it's necessary (but don't quote me on this since I haven't investigated the timings in depth). Anyways, once the raven is out, DT's and esp DT-expand is almost an auto-loss because the terran can do some sort of timing attack with pdd. Thanks i'll quote you on that xD. What about a DT rush though? Cancel Banshee and make Raven? Repair wall as long as possible? On November 09 2011 15:13 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 15:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 15:04 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:28 Xenorawks wrote:
Would like it if you can explain in more detail how to adapt to:
1. Early pheonix because BCs do come out pretty late. If the protoss has 2 base he would have no problem supporting stalkers and quite a lot of pheonixes so wouldn't it be pretty hard for you to balance between right number of vikings and banshees?
2. Early High Templars. Storms and Feedback could be pretty devastating isn't it especially if your opponent gets cannons with the minerals and masses HTs with the gas. Air units tend to stack up easily which makes them very vulnerable to storms isn't it? Probably you should give some tips on how split your air army especially when you have lots of banshees, ravens and vikings. I still have a lot to add but for now... vs Early Phoenix, meaning a Stargate put down once he sees 1-2 Banshees, you turtle up in your base and pump Vikings until you have enough. You may not be able to harass him for a while, but it means that he has less Stalkers meaning that you can burn minerals on more CCs and take even more bases even faster than usual. But what really gives trouble is if they go 1 base Phoenix, like really really early. But this is more of a blind decision. This is bad because you will need to make an Engineering Bay to put down a couple turrets to protect your mineral line/starports or else he'll just focus down every viking or marine that comes out. If you don't make an Ebay until you see a Phoenix, it might not be gg though, but i think you'll be behind a bit. Maybe you can double expand or something. I'm not sure, I don't play against many 1 base blind phoenix builds xD Yes I have had some trouble vs early HT and lots of cannons and the protoss himself taking many expansions. I have a replay but I'll find it later. He played really well or just knew how to respond to air style T. However if he adds HTs later in the game, Storm is actually not that devastating. Just be sure you split your Banshees a bit. Even if he storms you, just back off. Storm DPS is too slow that most Banshees can't take more than 20 damage each. For Feedback, drain your Cloak Energy and throw down PDD instead of using Seeker Missiles (SMs require you to be too close, he can easily kill your Ravens or do a lot of damage vs them or just drain your energy). In some situations you could even fly your army over his so that if he storms, he will get hurt too. To split your air army up just magic box just like mutas and make sure to hold position. On November 09 2011 14:36 Whitewing wrote:On November 09 2011 14:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2011 14:01 shishy wrote:
How do you get a supply depot at 11?? Do you mean 9? OOPS. Thanks haha. But 10 not 9. On November 09 2011 14:02 Whitewing wrote:
I've fought a few terrans doing this to me, I'm usually able to win, although the games are pretty close. Basically, the moment I scout it I throw down a stargate and start chrono'ing phoenix and get speed observers at the same time to deal with cloak banshees. I don't stop at 1 or even 2 observers though, I usually make 5 or 6 to deal with the sniping, and get a ton of phoenix. Eventually the game gets really weird as he either has to build a few thors to deal with the phoenix (nothing terran has in the air other than BC's does well vs. phoenix), or switches to something else entirely. If he goes BC's I usually deal with it by getting some high templar for feedback and archons with a mothership (archon toilet is freaking amazing vs. air units since they don't spread out well after the vortex ends). The High templar shut down the ravens too, and I can warp in feedback then morph to archons.
Last thing you want to build against this is stalkers: banshees and BC's make mincemeat of them, and PDD shuts them down so hard.
This playstyle is really cool, and while I don't think it's particularly strong and that you're probably just winning a lot due to having better multi-tasking than your opponent or he simply has no idea how to respond. That said, even if the toss does know how to respond, you wind up with a really fun match with lots of tech switches and tons of new shenanigans. Yep, most of my wins are just through surprise. It looks just like a 1-1-1 all-in anyways, or a 2 Port if they scout that. Everyone just masses Stalkers, lol. But some do make Phoenixes (early ones) or etc., those are a bit more challenging. However the two top master Protoss that I've played against have played against this before, so they may not have been used to it but they most likely had a good idea of how to win... at least I'd think so =O One of them said that there used to be a Korean GM in his clan who did air styles, too bad I can't find any replays If only we had more air maps like Desert Oasis, it would be epic to see a professional TvP with archon toilets vs mass air xD Yeah, I like to respond to the 1/1/1 by going fast stargate for phoenix after my 1 gate expo anyway, because I can pick of banshees and lift the tanks for the fight, allowing my zealots to really bring the hurt, so when I face this I have phoenix for it anyway. But yeah, stalkers are not a good response to banshees unless it's just banshee harass. If you want to practice it against a masters protoss, hit me up on battlenet (Whitewing.424) I'm also happy to help any gentlemen who wants to practice mech, I'd love to stop playing against bio (Bio is so dull to play against). Kk thanks let's play sometime . On November 09 2011 14:47 DeltaBravo wrote:On November 09 2011 14:29 KobyKat wrote:
This is really awesome. I looked through the whole thing but I'm sure I'll need to reference it again in the future and figure out the details of it. The only thing I'm skeptical about is getting a PF as your natural. I see that it's necessary to stay alive but playing the six base macro game like you talked about seems like the opposite of getting a PF early on. You probably do enough harrass to make up for the lack of a second set of MULEs though. I think I'll be trying this out. It seems like even if they try to counter it they will run in to problems because it's a freaking PF. I think that his spending is more limited by gas than it is by minerals, so it makes sense that he just skips mules, as they just provide more excess minerals. Also, the extra security from a PF is invaluable, since it seems like this build's weak point is the early game. To the OP, you mentioned that early phoenixes give you a bit more trouble than usual. Do they ever get to the point where you are forced to go for some sort of ground support i.e. marines or thors? Also, what kind of responses give you the most trouble out of the Protoss? Putting on the theory crafting tin foil hat, it seems like the best response by Protoss would be to match your expansion count and dump everything into air, creating a giant fleet battle. Since the terran can't be agressive in denying expansions in the same way that bio-based terrans can, it appears like a mass expanding toss shouldn't get too much resistance. As for units, it seems like a combination of ultra gas heavy templar phoenix void ray would be an even match, forcing both parties to micro their units to avoid seeker/storm and kill off the banshees/archons. Hopefully someone can build off of that tin foil hat thought process and start giving the OP close fights, air style looks so much fun. Yup that is correct. I was thinking of their suggestions for skipping the PF and instead making more Bunkers and Marines. Well anyways now I can't see that working. Sure, an OC gives you more MULEs which means that I can get more expansions up faster. However, the amount of bunkers + Marines you will need (300 minerals per Bunker) is way too much. And it won't work on most maps because the Bunkers will be too spread out. For example in Metal, if you mark an arc of bunkers he can just pick 1 spot to attack at. But let's say you have Shattered or such and it is closed off. You make 6 Bunkers. Even then I'm not sure it can hold off a 6 Gate push (which is why the PF is there). I forgot to add that part sorry. Stalkers will just 2-3 shot Bunkers and you can't repair them fast enough. Also you won't be able to fill up the Bunkers fast enough since you cut Marine production. Basically you won't have enough minerals to get those bunkers+Marines down unless you delay your natural, which you cannot because a push can kill you. You get your third pretty fast anyways, so you don't lose that many MULEs while your natural is alive. Over time though, you will lose a lot of course, but those marines in those bunkers will take supply too and everything. Even if you could time it so that you have enough marines to defend your natural, you'd be making more Bunkers and using at least 1200 more minerals (4 Bunkers loaded). That + Depots + Barracks is probably about 2000 minerals, or 7-8 MULEs, or 14-16 minutes. So really the minerals won't be made up until 16 minutes later when the game might have already ended. Another thing that can give you a lot of trouble with this build is DT openers, especially if they proxy the dark shrine, since you won't have more than one OC, and will be lacking scans. Hmm. Well if they do a DT opener (1 base?) and you don't scout it, maybe it would be good to note to make a Ebay and a turret just in case. But then if it is a WP proxy drop then those minerals will be wasted. Well do you know when a DT rush would hit at? Isn't it like 6:xx? I guess that is a problem then. What if you pull all your SCVs and go attack his base with your Banshee? If his DT comes you scan it. Idk though haha One base DT hits shortly after your first banshee comes out of the starport, but before cloak finishes if you rush to cloak. Two base DT comes a bit later, but it's more economical, less all-in, and can still be proxied pretty easily without giving away much in the base. I used to experiment a ton with 2 base DT/phoenix against zerg. I didn't mean to suggest that it's something you can expect to face often, but I wanted to point out a weakness in your build/style that you should make sure to iron out. K thanks I was always interested in DT openers since templar are just cool. But I don't see it much at all. I don't think I've seen it like, ever on the ladder, actually. Maybe once or twice xD I used to make raven first in my build and this would auto-win against a DT opener. However, I found making the banshee + cloak first more effective against other builds (e.g. 3-gate 1-star, 1-gate FE, 4-gate, 3-gate expo, etc), but then I started losing against 1-base DTs. I deal with 1-base DTs similar to what I said in my previous post. I save a scan and then get the raven out (without cancelling the banshee). Whilst waiting for the raven, I'll just repair the wall. The banshee + cloak is an auto-win if the protoss expands behind. If the protoss gets robo, I'll still most likely be able get some probe kills and then a marine/banshee/raven + pdd timing attack will win.
And actually if he runs his probes around his map, you can just kill the Robo before an observer comes out, and your second banshee should be out in case your first is out of energy =D
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I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
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On November 09 2011 15:37 Azzur wrote:
I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore.
Hm idk, thorzain did that air style with hellions against noblesse in GSTL. I think Noblesse was going marine tank. So it can definitely work I think. Though hellions take 1 more shot to kill marines now
Wow TvZ really? i was trying to get it to work (without having to stay very long on bio nor mech). Anyways how did that 8 to 4 second buff actually hurt you? Was it because you used to repair while fungal'd or something?
Also haha it is the same for me, winning so much against Protoss has made my Zerg and Terran opponents challenging, but even now I don't have much trouble against them. Moving up I guess. But I remember when my TvT went to like 25% winrate instead of 80% xD.
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i just tried this build, the P went blind one base phenixes, which was ok to deal with, i just turtled, massed some vikings, and expanded to a 3rd base, but then he shows up with like 10 pheonixes/10+ stalkers/10+ zealots and 3 colossus. and completely raped me, but my fault for forgetting what button it is for pdd and SM. But my problem is, i had like infinite minerals, and little gas, i just dont know what to dump into minerals, aall i can think of is marines. any sugestions?
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On November 09 2011 16:00 rebuffering wrote:
i just tried this build, the P went blind one base phenixes, which was ok to deal with, i just turtled, massed some vikings, and expanded to a 3rd base, but then he shows up with like 10 pheonixes/10+ stalkers/10+ zealots and 3 colossus. and completely raped me, but my fault for forgetting what button it is for pdd and SM. But my problem is, i had like infinite minerals, and little gas, i just dont know what to dump into minerals, aall i can think of is marines. any sugestions?
Blind one base... such a weird build. Anyways, if you share your replay maybe we can figure something out.
About minerals, dump them all into CCs! Like, seriously lol. All CCs! It sounds like he had so many Phoenixes that to win the game all you would need are Vikings + PFs (and maybe a couple Ravens for PDD) cus all you'd need to do is kill the phoenixes, which would let you snipe the Colossi.
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On November 09 2011 15:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2011 15:37 Azzur wrote:
I played until early S3, but haven't played in S4 but sky-terran essentially carried me in ladder because of TvP. My TvZ and TvT was bad so at the end of S2 (when the number of protosses seemed to have drastically reduced) I suffered a lot. At the start of S3, protosses seemed to have comeback, so that was a very good thing.
I also used to play a sky-terran TvZ style but my build was shutdown by the infestor buff (FG being 4-sec instead of 8) which completely destroyed me.
Sky-terran was ok for a while for me in TvT but then people started getting proficient at marine/tank. I then tried to mech but should've reverted back to sky-terran when mech became the norm. Now, with marine/tank become standard again, I don't think I can pull it off in TvT anymore. Hm idk, thorzain did that air style with hellions against noblesse in GSTL. I think Noblesse was going marine tank. So it can definitely work I think. Though hellions take 1 more shot to kill marines now Wow TvZ really? i was trying to get it to work (without having to stay very long on bio nor mech). Anyways how did that 8 to 4 second buff actually hurt you? Was it because you used to repair while fungal'd or something? Also haha it is the same for me, winning so much against Protoss has made my Zerg and Terran opponents challenging, but even now I don't have much trouble against them. Moving up I guess. But I remember when my TvT went to like 25% winrate instead of 80% xD.
FG from 8 to 4 sec increased the dps. The 8 sec FG was already a pain to deal with but the 4 sec (and hence v high dps) destroyed me. I've abandoned sky-terran against zerg.
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Wow, as a toss im not happy about this post
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EPT
