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Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
- p4NDemik |
To those who say the final match was thrown, all I can tell you is is that Mvp has consistently edged NesTea nearly every time they've met. If anything needs to be analyzed to see if someone was throwing a match, it's the 2-0 WB result. That's the only oddity between these two.
I have to say if I was Mvp and had to read through this thread, I'd be pretty sad. I was wondering wtf he was talking about when he said not a lot of people liked him but I think I get it now. Same with the GSL Championship thread. It's pretty depressing to see someone who is so gifted and polite treated like a piece of trash due to the throwaway comments of a few fans he has. It's as if being well-mannered, very good at the game and successful should be treated with scorn.
Agree with the person who said the LR thread ruins matches and that you have much more fun just watching the matches on your own. The negativity is just appalling.
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Russian Federation25 Posts
10+ Ghosts are so unbalanced, they counter everything.
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On October 23 2011 17:59 AxionSteel wrote:From watching the stream, the cheers for Mvp vs Nestea were pretty even, yet fairly heavily In favour of MMA in the gsl finals. Obviously fans who were at the venue have a more valid opinion though 
Heh, but if there's a girl screaming in your ear for one player it skews the live opinion quite a bit =p.
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He sees ghosts when he pushes the main with his broodlords, he makes 0 overseers.
A reasonable point, although he was dealing with a variety of drops at the time along with trying to find a way to break the front. With as much going on as there was, it's not out of the question to think he could just miss this. It may be more noteworthy that Terrans simply don't always get cloak versus Zerg, and so he may have deemed the supply better spent elsewhere.[/quote]
5? nukes land before he makes any at all?
I just checked this out by watching the relevant portion of the game again. It's simply not a valid criticism. The first nuke coincides with the first drop, at which point he becomes supply blocked. He immediately begins making 10 overlords so as to give him his supply back. His next production makes is 7 corruptors, which makes sense as he has just lost a tremendous portion of his army and needs to get some army units up. At this point, he is supply blocked at 130/130. The very instant his next overlords pop, putting him at 178 max supply, he begins making Overseers.
In other words, he got overseers as soon as he both strategically, and more importantly, legally was allowed to.
He sends his first 7? broodlords in alone they get demolished by 3vikings and some ghosts, meanwhile his muta's are by his main doing nothing.
His mutalisks were busy dealing with a drop. On the one hand, of course he didn't need to send all his mutas to deal with the drop, but on the other hand, he didn't necessarily know how big a drop it was going to be until it happened - though that may be somewhat of a stretch. Probably more realistically, he had his mutalisks all on one hotkey and reacted to the drop by using that hotkey. This explains why for a brief period, his brood lords are all alone while his mutas are over by the drop, and then fairly quickly a large chunk of the mutas break off and arrive at the front with the brood lords, leaving a few back to clean the drop up - and honestly, the brood lords are alone only very briefly. The biggest factor in all of this is, in all honesty, trying to deal with multiple things happening at once all over the map. Believe it or not, even the highest level players can only deal with so many things at once.
His spawning pool gets dropped and is left on sub 50HP, he doesnt remake it, 2 more drops come, one fails and he finally remakes when it dies.
Fair point, but at the same time, I frequently see this mistake from Zergs, low and high level. It's just one of those things that for some reason people frequently seem to ignore until it's too late.
His nydus worm he drops infront of a thor which is broodlord is shelling, so not only can it be seen, its also where MVP is likely to be looking. He also loads so much into that Nydus it takes 25 ingame seconds to unload and he can fully afford two, three or four. He makes no attempt to cover the nydus with an attack or run by to distract.
I think the main issue here is simply that Mvp had very good control of his bases. There weren't really a whole lot of areas he could get vision for a nydus for.
He makes drones when hes on 10k+ minerals and 6k+ gas. Theres 3/4 instances of this occuring.
As we saw, 10k+ minerals and 6k+ gas can very quickly drop to numbers much lower. There's nothing wrong with attempting to keep up your economy, especially if you sense the game may go longer.
His mass broodlord army, which first of all he makes after he's seen 2000 ghosts on the field, gets scanned, he doesnt leave any corrupters knowing fully well his opponent has seen the broods so will produce vikings.
Mvp's play style is to deal with brood lords via ghosts. He doesn't mass vikings. The point is even made here: he saw a huge number of ghosts already. This means that vikings are simply not likely - and as we saw, Mvp never really had more than a few of them. Even if he had, NesTea had infestors. If your opponent is going ground to attack your brood lords, clearly corruptors is not the right play! Remember, even Day9 and JP were fairly certain that nearly 30 brood lords were too many to be sniped by those ghosts. He may simply have thought he'd be able to overrun the front and kill off all the ghosts before 30 brood lords could be sniped all the way to death.
He doesnt throw away drones, still has 80+ with 10k / 6k in the bank.
He doesnt move units away from a single nuke, the one he attempts to stop he fails.
I've put these two together because, honestly, they answer each other. NesTea does throw away drones by leaving them at his hatchery when the nuke goes down. As soon as he recovers from the supply cap that happened immediately after this, he begins making corruptors and brood lords. Obviously I can't read his mind, but it sure looks to me as though he decided to tech switch to mass brood lord at this point to try to break that huge siege line Mvp had, and sacrificing some drones to a nuke certainly helps free up supply to do that. It seems even more obvious that this is the strategy given that after his first drop fails, he follows it up with a pretty pathetic zergling drop. Was he really trying to do some kind of real damage with a scant couple of overlords full of lings, or was he trying to free up supply?
He "mass drops" into the main even tho he has a nydus already built, uppon dropping he doesnt really achieve anything, theres no way a player of his calibur doesnt have a plan (pull his army back push 3rd / 4th locations? Mass fungal the ramp has he tries to move up, target fire production buildings? - he actually focus' both engineering bays down when he knows his opponent is at 3/3)
The entire game, NesTea was trying to break that front. He wanted to with banelings, but Mvp got too sound a defensive setup. I've messed with it significantly in the unit tester, and even 100 banelings wasn't sufficient to break the precise composition/positioning that Mvp had (the natural choke of Shakura's Plateau and the Planetary Fortress Mvp had were big contributing factors to this). Thus, he tried to do a doom drop. This failed as well. What did NesTea do after this? He immediately tech switches to brood lord (and frees up supply for that switch) - the late game Zerg unit which you use precisely to break sieged encampments like Mvp had. This certainly sounds like a plan.
And the main thing: He doesnt make a single proper attack when hes maxed with all that money in the bank, he spends the whole time fucking around doing nothing. ~115 banelings and he does nothing but sit on them for 5minutes?
This was my opinion after watching it the first time. I've since rewatched it, and upon more careful examination - and to be honest, an examination with less in-the-moment excitement - I am not so sure. He couldn't break the front with those banelings, and he was attempting to deal with constant drops every which way. He actually did do some aggression, briefly denying Mvp's pocket expansion, an he tried to deny other expansions, both with the banelines and the mutas. Having watched it again, I really feel like there wasn't a whole lot of straight up aggression he could actually do, and Mvps aggressiveness ensured that it stayed that way.
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On October 23 2011 18:28 Chaken wrote:
10+ Ghosts are so unbalanced, they counter everything.
So do HTs and Infestors. The high tier caster units are just good across the bord, each in their own way. Imagine 30 brood lords floating in and a giant wave of storms devestating them, or fungal after fungal wiping them out.
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Minding all the controversy surrounding the Nestea vs Mvp series, it was nonetheless very exciting and I would recommend it to anybody interested in professional StarCraft.
Edit: I did not stay up till 3 AM in the morning for nothing, anyway.
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i think those were great games and if you take the 2:0, then 0:2 and finally 1:2 into account, then both players must have been pretty pressured, nestea did not want to commit, i bet the second he had the 100+ banes he regretted it because mvp had a solid siegeline + planetary, so he tried to circumvent it via nydus, later with a drop, first one simply failed, second one was not worth it at all, that may have triggered the "mass broodlord" mistake.
honestly these players are awesome, but not immune to wrong decisions, reactored hellions close position lost temple were a terrible blunder, but it happens guys, i for one see them skillwise extremely close to each other, and should they meet at mlg / gsl whereever again, i would not bet money on either player!
dont go too far with with your fanboy-crusade, also let the LR thread be just that, would not mind a LR with only like 10 trusted reporters allowed to post -.-, and a separate trollfeast for people who cannot use irc... anyways great weekend for esports =)
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While i'm sure both players tried their best to win the series, i think they also tried to make the final
game especially exciting by playing non-standard strats.
And for me it worked quite well.
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seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers
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say what u want about the finals, i loved the way MVP was using snipe and just in general being a boss
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On October 23 2011 18:58 brachester wrote:
seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems to a lot of people that nestea threw the last game on purpose to let MVP take the win.
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On October 23 2011 19:04 Jaziek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 18:58 brachester wrote:
seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers + Show Spoiler +
It seems to a lot of people that nestea threw the last game on purpose to let MVP take the win.
well its either nestea threw the game or he's a high ranked diamond player, pick one
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On October 23 2011 19:18 darlhet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 19:04 Jaziek wrote:On October 23 2011 18:58 brachester wrote:
seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers + Show Spoiler +
It seems to a lot of people that nestea threw the last game on purpose to let MVP take the win.
well its either nestea threw the game or he's a high ranked diamond player, pick one
Just trying to be diplomatic about the situation.
But yes, even as a platinum player I could see a million holes with what he was doing. There is no way a GSL champion plays that badly unless he's doing it on purpose.
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On October 23 2011 11:06 monkeycid wrote:
I *hope* this won't warrant a ban. The way I see it, the match was *definitely* not fixed, but the feeling I got was that neither player cared about the outcome in the way they would have in, say, a GSL final. The play was rather silly, to be honest, and from what I read (I am neither willing nor able to pull any sources, so have at me) prize money is often distributed to the team as a whole - meaning that neither player had that much to fight for. My impression (which was indiependently shared by my friends who discussed the match as it happened) was that the players were taking the piss out of each other, with MVP eventually being impolite enough to win.
Blizzcon weekend was good (even had me neglecting some RL responsibilities to watch games) but I'm sad to see it end up like this. It kind of adds up with them not casting tons of intriguing matches and using the sub-par map-pool that they did.
I suppose it was nice, but it could - easily, and with little investment - have been tons better. I'm just left feeling somewhat disappointed. Yes, it was good, but it could have been so much better.
Playing split map is definitely a viable strategy on mapsl ike shattered / shakuras. MVP knew what he was doing. Its difficult as fuck, but if executed correctly there is a very little both players can do. This definitely wasn't a showmatch, and nukes and nydus worms/drops were good and somwhat optimal answers.
MVP however looked much more comfortable in the split map strategy than Nestea who probably didn ot havce so much experience playing agianst it. this strategy might me imba, but there was still a ton more stuff nestea could ahve done better.
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I just watched the games. I totally not agree he threw the game.
1. If he wanted to give the game to MVP, he could do it much earlier, no to wait 15k/6k.
2. His first attack was for clearing supply - he had too much supply in baneling/ultra, which was useless against mvps composition - he wanted to trade armies and than hit MVP's weakened army with brood lords. This attack was pretty clever, he wanted to make mvp move his army and baneling bomb it in the chokes (not dropping most of the banelings was done on purpose), but mvp's reaction with snipes was too good.
3. I guess his plan was his second attack to be much faster, but in the first one he lost a ton of supply, and after that he had to make army, because started to be ripped apart by mvp's nukes and drops. At the end his last attack was act of desperation, but he had no choice - he had no income and his banked minerals were at their end - he had to wait to be ripped apart by nukes and drops, or make one final battle.
So, Nestea may be made some mistakes (earlier in the game, I think he was too confident and thought he already won to make 100 banelings), but talking about throwing the game for such players, at blizzcon, in front of so many people is lack of respect for the players and exports.
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On October 23 2011 18:52 Naphal wrote:
i think those were great games and if you take the 2:0, then 0:2 and finally 1:2 into account, then both players must have been pretty pressured, nestea did not want to commit, i bet the second he had the 100+ banes he regretted it because mvp had a solid siegeline + planetary, so he tried to circumvent it via nydus, later with a drop, first one simply failed, second one was not worth it at all, that may have triggered the "mass broodlord" mistake.
honestly these players are awesome, but not immune to wrong decisions, reactored hellions close position lost temple were a terrible blunder, but it happens guys, i for one see them skillwise extremely close to each other, and should they meet at mlg / gsl whereever again, i would not bet money on either player!
dont go too far with with your fanboy-crusade, also let the LR thread be just that, would not mind a LR with only like 10 trusted reporters allowed to post -.-, and a separate trollfeast for people who cannot use irc... anyways great weekend for esports =)
yeh the thing is, that mvp was one step ahead all the game. Actually the split map strategy shouldn't have surprised nestea that much. The "trigger" was the 2 command centers. Immediately when he saw those 2 extra command centers he should ahve realized MVP wasn't going to attack for a very long time. THose he shouldn't have made those crawlers in the middle, and there was a ton other stuff he should have done differently.
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I wonder if all that trashtalk about match fixing would have place if Nestea would win.
Lets be straight, when Nestea wins its pure skill, when he loses (to terran) then terran OP, bad maps, luck, etc.
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On October 23 2011 19:27 Jaziek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 19:18 darlhet wrote:On October 23 2011 19:04 Jaziek wrote:On October 23 2011 18:58 brachester wrote:
seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers + Show Spoiler +
It seems to a lot of people that nestea threw the last game on purpose to let MVP take the win.
well its either nestea threw the game or he's a high ranked diamond player, pick one Just trying to be diplomatic about the situation. But yes, even as a platinum player I could see a million holes with what he was doing. There is no way a GSL champion plays that badly unless he's doing it on purpose.
exactly, its not the fact that he lost, its how , he was stayin on 192 supplies for like 5 minutes always getting supply blocked because he refused to make a round of overlords i mean cmon...
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They are team mates, both have an endless amount of cash, both are really good sc2 players, both have proved their skill to the sc2 community, I don't see any reason for any one throwing a game. NesTea has his ups and downs, he's lost against worse people in the past and he will in the future too. MVP is a boss, and if you think NesTea was playing badly I would like to see you do better. It was an important match with a lot on the line and he was up against the best terran in the world. If you analyse it after the game is over, or even just while watching, it will never be the same as it was for NesTea actually playing.
Funny thing is I see this NesTea vs MVP thing becoming the new Yellow vs Boxer.
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On October 23 2011 19:30 anotherone wrote:
I wonder if all that trashtalk about match fixing would have place if Nestea would win.
Only if MVP had won the GSL final.
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EPT
