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Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
- p4NDemik |
On October 23 2011 20:23 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 19:18 darlhet wrote:On October 23 2011 19:04 Jaziek wrote:On October 23 2011 18:58 brachester wrote:
seems like something happened during the blizzcon final, anyone mind to tell me? can't bother to check the last 325 pages
cheers + Show Spoiler +
It seems to a lot of people that nestea threw the last game on purpose to let MVP take the win.
well its either nestea threw the game or he's a high ranked diamond player, pick one Or you know, he choked. Why is everyone so quick to accuse the players of matchfixing when it's more likely that NesTea failed to properly prepare for MVP's turtling mass ghost strategy? It's not like NesTea didn't do ANYTHING to try and swing the game into his favour. He tried nydus to take out MVP's later expansions, he tried a doom drop into main to lure MVP's army in & kill them. He also tried another ling drop into MVP's bottom expansions. He just got turned away every time. Sure NesTea could've played much much better, but why is it so hard for people to believe that he's also capable of choking like MMA did against Polt? Contrary to Artosis and his followers' belief, he's not a god and he makes mistakes. Also, if you know ANYTHING about korean culture, you would know that there's no way they would fix the match in MVP's favour. NesTea is the senior of the two by far, and his pride & MVP's respect for him would never let that happen. Could it be that they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand? Possibly, but that's different from fixing the outcome of the match (though I'm strongly against it). If you actually look at the games though, why would they feel the need to all-in and hit timings as they did, if a deal was in place? People really need to stop jumping to ridiculous conclusions and use their heads. please find the post where i talk about match fixing , i just said that he threw the game away, and he did play diamond level , if you disagree well ...  , the issue is it seemed like there was nothing on the line, nestea floating 14k minerals and still staying on 192 supply not making an overlord for 5 minutes, doing a doom drop and not controlling it at all etc... you're right , you need to stop jumping to conclusions and use your head more
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I'm pretty damn sure that anyone who has been following sc2 steadily, incuding the korean scene/gsl, for the past ½-1 year knows that nestea could have won the game from when he had the banelings.
He has done that many times and jsut attacked instead of throwing them away. He has never banked that many minerals without attacking. In fact never has a player in serious competetive gaming banked so much money as a zerg without having spammed larva/hatches and lost to a terran just sitting on his ass.
Nestea didnt give a fuck and just wanted to make a spectacular game, which sadly for those of us who appreciate high level play, simply was a bit lame.
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Mvp won all the games where he went for early map control with helIions. I don't understand why Nestea refuses every single game to at least properly defend it. Only 1 spine crawler every single time? Some passive lings behind it rather than another spine crawler? Then he waits for his spire to finish or for Mvp to make a huge mistake to deal with the hellions. The best TvZ player in the world can get used to that kind of play I think. The last Shattered Temple game was the most frustrating. Nestea has zero vision of the map, but he doesn't prepare for any kind of attack, just makes drones. What were the overlords doing anyway? Nestea isn't supposed to die to a 2 tank push so often, not when he plays to win.
The comments some people make about why the match was fixed all focus on the final game. "Make 50 hatches and 20 queens." I guess queens don't cost supply anymore? 300 supply pushes when there's only 60 supply available for the army surely must be powerful.
The last game was great. For a show match. For the final game of a tournament it was laughable. It didn't feel at all like a game between two players who wanted to win. Nestea was nervous and looked desperate to break the siege line of Mvp. 2 spine crawlers on one side of a hatchery surely make it drop-proof. Make 110 banelings, then lose 40 of them a-moving into drops all over the map. Mass baneling-ultra drop in the terrans main, changing your mind about it about 10 times during the execution, then finally going with some half-hearted version, losing half of the units inside overlords, dropping a few to cause mass destruction and leaving a lot of the units in the overlords floating at some random spot above the terran base. Lots of spine crawlers in the middle, better not use them in a push!
Altogether a disappointing finals of a disappointing tournament. Showing only some random games with shitloads of downtime when there are 2 caster teams, forcing zerg all-ins by allowing close spawns, abyssal caverns ...
Shift-queuing 200 snipes in 10 seconds is fine though. Scout Hive morphing -> hardcounter it with a Ghost Academy!
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On October 23 2011 21:47 CaptainKirby wrote:
I'm pretty damn sure that anyone who has been following sc2 steadily, incuding the korean scene/gsl, for the past ½-1 year knows that nestea could have won the game from when he had the banelings.
He has done that many times and jsut attacked instead of throwing them away. He has never banked that many minerals without attacking. In fact never has a player in serious competetive gaming banked so much money as a zerg without having spammed larva/hatches and lost to a terran just sitting on his ass.
Nestea didnt give a fuck and just wanted to make a spectacular game, which sadly for those of us who appreciate high level play, simply was a bit lame.
Attack into planetarys with tanks and marines? Yeah good idea lol..
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On October 23 2011 21:47 CaptainKirby wrote:
I'm pretty damn sure that anyone who has been following sc2 steadily, incuding the korean scene/gsl, for the past ½-1 year knows that nestea could have won the game from when he had the banelings.
He has done that many times and jsut attacked instead of throwing them away. He has never banked that many minerals without attacking. In fact never has a player in serious competetive gaming banked so much money as a zerg without having spammed larva/hatches and lost to a terran just sitting on his ass.
Nestea didnt give a fuck and just wanted to make a spectacular game, which sadly for those of us who appreciate high level play, simply was a bit lame.
This was the only thing that bugged me about Nestea's play. MVP was too well defended to throw away banelings AND all of his gas investment he poured into them. Three minutes in he realized he needed drops and nydus to open up attack paths. But at that point he should've also been injecting his hatcheries constantly to stock up on larva so he can do the remax that would be necessary to replace banelings and soak up the massive stockpile in resources he accumulated.
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nestea should've done that 2-2 infestor ling timing it was the exact same game as they played in winner brackets finals first game
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On October 23 2011 22:03 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:47 CaptainKirby wrote:
I'm pretty damn sure that anyone who has been following sc2 steadily, incuding the korean scene/gsl, for the past ½-1 year knows that nestea could have won the game from when he had the banelings.
He has done that many times and jsut attacked instead of throwing them away. He has never banked that many minerals without attacking. In fact never has a player in serious competetive gaming banked so much money as a zerg without having spammed larva/hatches and lost to a terran just sitting on his ass.
Nestea didnt give a fuck and just wanted to make a spectacular game, which sadly for those of us who appreciate high level play, simply was a bit lame. Attack into planetarys with tanks and marines? Yeah good idea lol..
Then remax to to 200/00 , 3 more times.....
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MVP explained how he won in the interview
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278529
You got to meet Nestea at the finals, but you had to win 4 sets.
I thought I would lose since I was behind one Bo3 against none other than Nestea. There's Blizzcon winner ring and runner up ring, so I was satisfied with the runner up's. On the other hand, this is Nestea's first foreign tournament, so it was very hard on him. I think I was able to beat him due to his fatigue. I was behind in both mind games and skills, but I was able to barely pull ahead with concentration and endurance.
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ROFL myths:
Nestea didn't control his doomdrop!
*He actually did control while at the sametime looking for a nuke and dealing with drops. You feel so good when you can micro 2 locations at the same time? Try doing 5.
Nestea threw away the game by making so many broodlords!
*The game was allready lost at that point, MVP did an enormous amount of damage through drops and nukes at multiple locations. Nestea was completly crippled and despaired.
Nestea was sitting on so much minerals and gas he couldve easily spend it on endless waves of units!
*You could see nestea's idea was to mine out more bases then his opponent, then sac drones and make continuous true 200/200 armys. In the meanwhile he tried to do cost effective trades in the only ways with a chance of succes; through nydus worms and drops, both of which got handled superbly by MVP.
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I don't understand this accusation of match-fixing. Yes, Nestea didn't play as well as he normally would in that last game. But you have to think of how different this situation was for him as compared to what he normally does. First, it was his first foreign tournament, so dealing with the physical difficulties of travel would be a new experience for him, especially before a competition. Second, he was playing a high-stakes game with the other greatest player in the world. Third, he never plays in front of an audience that size, by a long shot. I'm sure he felt pressured to make an entertaining game for fans, especially when there were so many there. Fourth, it was a long series, making it all the way to the final possible game; he may have been slightly tilted after his strong lead going into the series was blown, especially after a few difficult losses to MVP where his strategies were man-handled by very strong attacks. Given those circumstances, and others that we probably can't be aware of, I think we should give the players the benefit of the doubt and not call into question their integrity on a handful of games.
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On October 23 2011 21:18 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 21:02 Hider wrote:On October 23 2011 20:31 Tailss wrote:On October 23 2011 20:19 Hider wrote:On October 23 2011 20:11 Manimal_pro wrote:
even if they did split the money, that doesn't mean they played for fun. I'm sure that the match was not fixed; and the argument that they split the money therefore the match is fixed is invalid
the only reason to rig a match result would if someone needs to qualify or gain points to be in a better position. see formula 1 etc Yeh they might have splitted the money, but people thinking last game was just a show match doesn't understand zvt. It definitely was high level play and high level strategies. High level play and high level strategies? Are you kidding me? That was without a doubt one of the shitties zvt ive ever seen. It was just horrible. A lot of the mistakes you think the players made werent mistakes, but simply decisions they didn't do because it wasn't optimal. Now these players understand the game at a much higher level than you and are able to weights factors which you dont think about. There were so many small things that esp. MVP did in this game, that I am so sure that you and a lot other low level players aren't thinking about, and hence judges the players wrongly. Not making extra overlords before a doom drop, not even unloading half his army, leaving all the overlords to die, not having any larvae to remax on, not getting detection against cloak / nuke, neither player attacking when they have a huge advantage. The game was terrible, stop pretending otherwise
Late game in these kind of situations with thek ind of multitasking needed mechanical mistakes will happen. However I am talking about strategical mistakes. Your talking about mechanical mistakes.
Every zerg player will make these kind of mistakes when they get into situations where they dont have enough practice. Thinking someone like idra would play much better is actually really stupid.
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On October 23 2011 23:59 Schwopzi wrote:
ROFL myths:
Nestea didn't control his doomdrop!
*He actually did control while at the sametime looking for a nuke and dealing with drops. You feel so good when you can micro 2 locations at the same time? Try doing 5.
Nestea threw away the game by making so many broodlords!
*The game was allready lost at that point, MVP did an enormous amount of damage through drops and nukes at multiple locations. Nestea was completly crippled and despaired.
Nestea was sitting on so much minerals and gas he couldve easily spend it on endless waves of units!
*You could see nestea's idea was to mine out more bases then his opponent, then sac drones and make continuous true 200/200 armys. In the meanwhile he tried to do cost effective trades in the only ways with a chance of succes; through nydus worms and drops, both of which got handled superbly by MVP.
Great post. Totally agree here, and I just think the people who complain about match fixing or nestea being terrible, dont have the ability to actually understand the game from a players process. Sure mistakes were made, but playing these kind of games is difficult as hell from both players. MVP was mostly 1 step ahead through most of the game and just won.
In the end Nestea knew he had lost so he was just desperate and tried to mass broodlords hoping that mvp would not have enough ghosts to snipe all of them and that he had no vikings. Was it the best decision? Probably not, he should probably have continued trying to harass the economy of mvp and get his own up, but he definitely was in a really bad situation, and could only win if mvp made big mistakes.
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On October 23 2011 20:47 hugman wrote:
There's a difference between match fixing and not taking it 100% seriously.
I don't think they sat down and said "we're going to make this go to the last game and then each bank 10k while not attacking", but I don't think they were playing to win in the last game. After they both got to the finals I think they were content.
They probably both wanted to play macro games in the end. But they definitely tried to win both of them. If you understand the game you can follow their throught proces behind their decisions, and even though mistakes were made. There were 0 decisions that made absolutely no sense at all. The problem as I have previously stated is that alot of people posting in this thread dont play the game at a high level, and hence dont understand the game very well, and when they see this kind of game, which is very different from normal games, they get confused and think it has to be match fixing or they were just having fun/not trying to win. YEs they were. Playing split map is very strong if done correctly, and beating it is difficult as fuck when you dont have practice against it, and is playing against MVP.
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Ya I was hoping for a 500 food push from nestea after the banelings dropped into his base. Would of been cool to see zerg be real zergy with constant reinforcements of zerglings/roaches...bummer
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what's all this about match fixing in the finals? I haven't watched the games, however that pair is probably the least likely pair where I expect match fixing to occur.
Nestea has been quite manhandled by MVP the last two times it matters (in gsl code S), so even if they are friends, I bet Nestea was thristing for a bit of revenge. And they are in the same team, so they could just say that in the end we'll split the price money between us 50:50. No match fixing or anything of that sort required!
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In my opinion this whole tournament felt absolutely made up........I'm not saying it was because that would be a ridiculous accusation in regard to the people that had to be incorporated for this.
But just look at the development of the tournament.
Nestea and MVP were seeded in such a way that it was guarenteed that they wouldn't meet to early.
While none of their games where shown they apparently absolutely crushed through the winner's bracket and finally met in the bracket's final.
Even before this said final there was a clip shown in which both talked about meeting eachother in the grandfinal and having no real other competitors at this tournament.
In the winner's bracket final - long anticipated and the first televised match of both of them in the tourney - Nestea absolutely demolished MVP in two incredibly underwhelming looking games. That's where the real showmanship started. After the game Nestea immidiately came over to repeatedly hugged a not in any way flustered looking MVP. It was absolutely clear these guys had to meet again after such an underwhelming performance of MVP.
Fun Fact: After the match the overview showed MVP as the winner of the bracket's final.
Finally all predictions where satisfied as both met in the Grandfinal (as expected MVP just crushed through Sen). The only problem was that MVP came from the loser's bracked and had therefore win two bo3s to win the series.
He proceeded and just did in two other pretty fast games. As a dramatic point of return Nestea was able to win the second game of the second bo3 and both proceeded to play an absolutely untypically large high tech game as the final match in which both players pulled out all the stops (Drops, Ghosts, Nydus, Nukes) just to end the game with a huge fight.While Nestea's moves got demolished every time (Nydus, Drop disaster) virtually every Nuke of MVP landed.
The fight though was (as expected) an absolute disaster for nestea followed up by a quick gg.
Far to much drama for a normal tourney not to speak of MVPs strange behavior after his win. Not to speak of the super strange map distribution involving the shortest rush distancy possible TWO TIMES!
Just my humble opinion.
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has any word come of if/when replays are going to be released?
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On October 24 2011 01:31 Simonius wrote:
In my opinion this whole tournament felt absolutely made up........I'm not saying it was because that would be a ridiculous accusation in regard to the people that had to be incorporated for this.
But just look at the development of the tournament.
Nestea and MVP were seeded in such a way that it was guarenteed that they wouldn't meet to early.
While none of their games where shown they apparently absolutely crushed through the winner's bracket and finally met in the bracket's final.
Even before this said final there was a clip shown in which both talked about meeting eachother in the grandfinal and having no real other competitors at this tournament.
In the winner's bracket final - long anticipated and the first televised match of both of them in the tourney - Nestea absolutely demolished MVP in two incredibly underwhelming looking games. That's where the real showmanship started. After the game Nestea immidiately came over to repeatedly hugged a not in any way flustered looking MVP. It was absolutely clear these guys had to meet again after such an underwhelming performance of MVP.
Fun Fact: After the match the overview showed MVP as the winner of the bracket's final.
Finally all predictions where satisfied as both met in the Grandfinal (as expected MVP just crushed through Sen). The only problem was that MVP came from the loser's bracked and had therefore win two bo3s to win the series.
He proceeded and just did in two other pretty fast games. As a dramatic point of return Nestea was able to win the second game of the second bo3 and both proceeded to play an absolutely untypically large high tech game as the final match in which both players pulled out all the stops (Drops, Ghosts, Nydus, Nukes) just to end the game with a huge fight.While Nestea's moves got demolished every time (Nydus, Drop disaster) virtually every Nuke of MVP landed.
The fight though was (as expected) an absolute disaster for nestea followed up by a quick gg.
Far to much drama for a normal tourney not to speak of MVPs strange behavior after his win. Not to speak of the super strange map distribution involving the shortest rush distancy possible TWO TIMES!
Just my humble opinion.
First, the prediction that MVP and Nestea would be in the finals is kind of a "no, duh" sort of thing; really, who in the brackets was going to challenge them? It wasn't an invite of the best players in the world; it was an invite of the best players from region to region based upon ladder results, so it's to be expected in that format that MVP and Nestea weren't going to have real challengers just based upon the process of selecting players, a process decided well before Nestea and MVP were the indisputably best players in the world.
As for your fun fact, graphical errors are made all the time in live sports events. Just last week while watching the NFL, 4th quarter came round, and the graphic said 3rd quarter for five minutes. Called human error. Very easy mistake to make.
And as for the up and downs of the tournament, that's why we watch them: shit happens, sometimes with a novel story, sometimes not. The map distribution wasn't strange, they're all ladder maps, and the ones Nestea and MVP chose to play on are some of the more familiar/tournament worthy maps. And since there were two best of 3s, they were able to choose the same maps they were most comfortable playing on for a tournament.
Sorry, but the "humble opinion" of a faked tournament is bullshit.
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On October 23 2011 21:47 CaptainKirby wrote:
I'm pretty damn sure that anyone who has been following sc2 steadily, incuding the korean scene/gsl, for the past ½-1 year knows that nestea could have won the game from when he had the banelings.
He has done that many times and jsut attacked instead of throwing them away. He has never banked that many minerals without attacking. In fact never has a player in serious competetive gaming banked so much money as a zerg without having spammed larva/hatches and lost to a terran just sitting on his ass.
Nestea didnt give a fuck and just wanted to make a spectacular game, which sadly for those of us who appreciate high level play, simply was a bit lame.
In the open field, quite possibly. However, the combination of the "choke" that Shakuras has with the tank placement and the PF that Mvp had made it actually very hard to do enough damage with banelings at the front. I thought he could just bust through with the banelings, too, and then I spent some time messing around in a unit tester and discovered that he really actually probably couldn't.
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Why would they split the money, they both would have tried to lose then, since 2nd place gets 25K, and the other half of 1st place, so 2nd place gets 50K while 1st place gets 25K... If it were for monetary ideals, I don't think MVP would've really cared about winning the first bo3 (as would Nestea, since it didn't make sense for him to beat MVP in the WB Finals).
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EPT
