On October 23 2011 16:57 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 15:51 RaiKageRyu wrote:On October 23 2011 15:37 SolidMoose wrote:
I guess my only doubts about the finals were the 27 broodlords when Nestea KNEW the ghost count of MVP. He literally chose the absolute worst option zerg has for that situation. I guess it is a little weird.
I see this posted so many times. And most often, no real answer what he should have done is given. When someone provokes for an answer to counter ghosts, Zerglings are usually the given answer. >_>
That's great if it was truly pure ghosts but it was not the case. There was a fortitude of entrenched tanks and PFs and Thors and marines. Ground attack was not an option.
I think NesTea could have turtled even harder. Secure 12 and 6 and mine out the map and play turtle defense and force Terran to attack instead. Those drops attacks from MVP were not beyond NesTea's realm to control. With enough macro hatcheries, when they finally clash, NesTea could remax instantly and overrunning MVP's remaining forces perhaps.
Either way I think Zergs are not accustomed to ZvT end game stalemates yet. ZvT has evolved so much where two sides can have games like those. Zergs are too used to counterattacking when Terrans leave base and then crushing the push at the last moment.
That's a stupid post and I'm not talking out of personal caring but out of definition of what is an good or bad arguement;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FallacyAlot of people seem to forgot that just because there is no solution (that we know of) to Ghosts, that does
not mean NesTea HAD to make the broodlords or somehow had no other option. This is just wrong out of a logical standpoint and most of all not the NesTea I love and cheer for: He never gives up.
I'll post a step by step arguments for why I think the last match either was a friendly match inbetween two players already agreeing on the prizesum, a anomaly where NesTea for the first time in his entire career in Starcraft II got flustered so badly that he totally gave up, or he just didn't care. Either way it is my arguments as a huge fan of NesTea to why I think he was not playing his ordinary self and I firmly stand by these arguments.
1.
"Sure he had alot of money but zergs need gas! 16k resources didn't mean he should automatically throw them at the terrans most fortified position on the map!" This is true to an extent, but when NesTea banks over 10k resources and doesn't rebuild 4 killed Hatcheries in a time period of over 15 minutes this arguement kills itself because it means that IF NesTea was actually thinking this argument in his head, he would've atleast used the money to macro and build up his bases again, he didn't. Also he later then used all his last resources to build 27 broodlords and attack the same position, further disproving this strain of thought within himself or atleast that he was acting upon it.
2.
"Terran ghost is OP blahblah he just couldn't beat IMMvp!" This might be true, and I know Mvp has some of the best rushes against NesTea ever even though just about every macro game they've ever played NesTea wins by far.
The problem about this argument and more than 90% of the "arguments" in this topic is that this game was not about the ghosts. NesTea did so many other mistakes regarding handeling the situation that the ghosts wasn't the main problem but for most novice this can appear as such since they were the terran units constantly killing NesTea's poorly controlled and optimized attacks, much like how folks always whine about "OMG MASS ROACH IS OP!" or "MMM op versus everything!" or "Deathball protoss is unstoppable!" this is because it seems as such when one player gets totally stompt and people want to determine why. It is also a shallow reason at most and just not true;
NesTea in his doom dropt stopt his own overlords from dropping the final banelings on the ghosts, he dropped them on tanks/marines/buildings but then, having the overlords selected and no other major concern (banking so many minerals and not rebuilding for the rest of the game either) and yet he didn't travel the last 20 meters with the overlords and drop the final banelings even though this could've killed atleast 8+ Ghosts.
His last attack was just an idiocy and there is no point to it, he didn't bring his detection against ghost, there is no argument against this, nor did he bring any antiair or infestors that he had. Other players perhaps might do this mistake but a 3 GSL winner who has underperformed the whole game and not rebuilt what little of his got killed by the nukes/drops that might've made him "flustered". He could've built 53 hatcheries with his amount of money, yet he didn't mine out half his bases.
Other than this, he didn't use his mutas half as much as he usually does (it might've looked like they did alot, but all they did was kill 1 orbital and a few SCVs yet they were largly uncontested for a long while before finally becoming obsolete. Any zerg knows that when alot of marines/ghosts move away from the tanks you prod the tanks to at the very least see if they're undefended, Mvp had 10+ tanks sitting in the middle when he defended his base against the brood lords (the first time) that were totally undefended.
3.
"He just got flustered! It happens!"This might once again be true or not, I can't judge, I just don't believe it. All the games I've seen NesTea he has never underperformed this much, there is no excuse to why it took 15 minutes for NesTea to die banging his head against Mvp's defences whilst not rebuilding his lost hatcheries, there just isn't. If he has time to macro up Ultralisks (which is probably the worst unit choice of all against a turteling terran with ghosts) then he has time to add 4 hatcheries, it is literally like 12 APM.
The ghosts might've killed hatcheries and yes NesTea for some reason did nothing whilst nukes were landing on the same bases and didn't even try to move his drones (or so it seemed), it still cost MVP 400 minerals 400 gas to kill each of those hatcheries, so he only gained a few minerals on the death of the drones whilst losing gas which is never a good trade for a terran. This should not have paralyzed NesTea and
regardless what the solution is for mass ghosts:
Anyone, ANYONE knows that it sure as hell ain't unsupported Brood Lords. Heck why should NesTea even attack? He had the most of the map, there is no logic behind attacking a defensive terran and we all know this, nobody wins against a defensive terran who has had time to build in.
Yes there were alot of drops, but NesTea has had games last 40 minutes where there was nonstop action and he still harnesses every damned unit/mineral, this is why he is a 3 time GSL champion to begin with and I don't get why people are cutting him slack as if this is normal behavior for someone of his caliber: It isn't. Pray tell though and notice how NesTea at first does a superb job denaying drops, to in the later half not stopping them at all or even rebuilding what little they did kill (10k+ in resources and a 300hatch+300drone expansion isn't a drop in the ocean). You might say he got flustered, I refuse to believe he would've that easily because to be frank he wasn't under serious preasure at all. He was losing some unnecessary bases and that is it, Mvp wasn't pushing or laying weight down on NesTea's unit line.
4.
"NesTea tried everything to attack! He did his best!"No he didn't, as I've stated above in multiple examples all NesTea did this match was first a quite lame mutalisk harass, followed by broodlords (that also were undefended to begin with), followed by a bad doomdrop that wasn't controlled at all (or even had all it's units unloaded), followed by suiciding 40+ banelings, followed by unsupported Broodlords.
First of all as I said above there was no reason for him to even attack to begin with, he had the most bases on the map, he should've had 500 godamn larvee ready to spawn out the biggest 300/300 push ever to be seen by man but instead we got three huge mineral suicides for no apparent reason.
Second of all; He didn't try anything other than units we all know fail against ghosts. This is not the innovative zerg we know and love, he doesn't do a IdrAesque way of style where he bangs his had against a hard rock and says the rock is overpowered, he finds a way to circumvent that rock, he didn't here. He banged his head multiple times with no reason to do so to begin with.
These are my five cents.
EPT
