EPTBlizzcon Day 2 - Page 324
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Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word. TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players. - p4NDemik | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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JJH777
United States4408 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:04 FuzzyJAM wrote: That was really bad late game play from NesTea. Like. . .really bad. How do you get supply blocked with about 10k minerals? Why no detection at his bases? Why was he letting drops hurt him? He had enough minerals to be constantly rallying 3/3 adrenalings for more about TEN maxes on top of whatever army he wanted while having enough money to make any swift counter from MVP literally impossible and he just maxed on one unit, A-moved, maxed on a different unit, A-moved, did a horribly executed doom drop where he didn't take advantage of the position it gave him, maxed on another unit and A-moved. . .agh! Heck, I'm not sure he even got Adrenal Glands. And obviously when I say really bad play, I'm talking about NesTea's normal level we see throughout games. Oh well, MVP still the best player in the world. People really need to stop saying this. LARVA is the limiting resource late game for Zerg. To max on lings 10 times he would have needed basically 2000 larva. What is he supposed to do make 50 hatcheries and like 20 queens? | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:04 AxionSteel wrote: Yeah, sums it up for me. So frustrating. I had a lot of trouble enjoying the match during that final game. It felt like a show instead of two people trying to kill each other over $50,000. Of course I have no proof or evidence of anything, I'm just giving the feeling I had when I watched the match. When two teammates in a showmatch go 2-2 and then have a final game where both sides mostly turtle and take every base on the map and tech to nearly every unit in the game and float thousands of minerals and make mass nukes and ghosts and 27 broodlords and 100+ banelings, it just feels like maybe the desire to entertain could be somewhere in mind. Or I could just be paranoid. On October 23 2011 16:30 JJH777 wrote: People really need to stop saying this. LARVA is the limiting resource late game for Zerg. To max on lings 10 times he would have needed basically 2000 larva. What is he supposed to do make 50 hatcheries and like 20 queens? Well, if I was floating around 14,000 minerals, I would certainly have closer to 50 hatcheries than 7. Just saying.  | ||
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andrea20
Canada441 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:30 JJH777 wrote: People really need to stop saying this. LARVA is the limiting resource late game for Zerg. To max on lings 10 times he would have needed basically 2000 larva. What is he supposed to do make 50 hatcheries and like 20 queens? Where are you getting these numbers from? 2 zerglings are 50 minerals. 300 cracklings will cost 7500 minerals plus upgrades, and 150 larva. So with 15k minerals he could've done this twice. Not ten times, and definitely not anywhere close to your 2000 larva estimate. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:30 JJH777 wrote: People really need to stop saying this. LARVA is the limiting resource late game for Zerg. To max on lings 10 times he would have needed basically 2000 larva. What is he supposed to do make 50 hatcheries and like 20 queens? Actually yes, he should have made more hatcheries and some more queens. He doesn't need 50/20, but certainly far more than he had. He had more than enough minerals to add about 20 hatches if he so wished. I'm not saying NesTea should have won the game, but he could have done a lot more interesting things than he did. It's not like the game was so hyper fast paced that he simply didn't have time to think of what to do or set himself up for whatever strategy might come to mind? | ||
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schmutttt
Australia3856 Posts
On October 23 2011 12:46 tranmillitary wrote: You guys are idiots if you think Nestea let MVP win. No one plays for 2nd place. There would be no point letting mvp win. NESTEA CAN'T BEAT MVP PERIOD. Nestea can't even beat bomber or MMA. people think Nestea is still that good, he's not. Nestea lost to MVP that last couple GSL's. People are just mad that MVP beat Nestea. You're an idiot because you are posting things without checking the facts. NesTea can't beat Bomber or MMA? Last time he has played each of them he has won.... | ||
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Krehlmar
Sweden1149 Posts
On October 23 2011 15:51 RaiKageRyu wrote: I see this posted so many times. And most often, no real answer what he should have done is given. When someone provokes for an answer to counter ghosts, Zerglings are usually the given answer. >_> That's great if it was truly pure ghosts but it was not the case. There was a fortitude of entrenched tanks and PFs and Thors and marines. Ground attack was not an option. I think NesTea could have turtled even harder. Secure 12 and 6 and mine out the map and play turtle defense and force Terran to attack instead. Those drops attacks from MVP were not beyond NesTea's realm to control. With enough macro hatcheries, when they finally clash, NesTea could remax instantly and overrunning MVP's remaining forces perhaps. Either way I think Zergs are not accustomed to ZvT end game stalemates yet. ZvT has evolved so much where two sides can have games like those. Zergs are too used to counterattacking when Terrans leave base and then crushing the push at the last moment. That's a stupid post and I'm not talking out of personal caring but out of definition of what is an good or bad arguement; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy Alot of people seem to forgot that just because there is no solution (that we know of) to Ghosts, that does not mean NesTea HAD to make the broodlords or somehow had no other option. This is just wrong out of a logical standpoint and most of all not the NesTea I love and cheer for: He never gives up. I'll post a step by step arguments for why I think the last match either was a friendly match inbetween two players already agreeing on the prizesum, a anomaly where NesTea for the first time in his entire career in Starcraft II got flustered so badly that he totally gave up, or he just didn't care. Either way it is my arguments as a huge fan of NesTea to why I think he was not playing his ordinary self and I firmly stand by these arguments. 1. "Sure he had alot of money but zergs need gas! 16k resources didn't mean he should automatically throw them at the terrans most fortified position on the map!" This is true to an extent, but when NesTea banks over 10k resources and doesn't rebuild 4 killed Hatcheries in a time period of over 15 minutes this arguement kills itself because it means that IF NesTea was actually thinking this argument in his head, he would've atleast used the money to macro and build up his bases again, he didn't. Also he later then used all his last resources to build 27 broodlords and attack the same position, further disproving this strain of thought within himself or atleast that he was acting upon it. 2."Terran ghost is OP blahblah he just couldn't beat IMMvp!" This might be true, and I know Mvp has some of the best rushes against NesTea ever even though just about every macro game they've ever played NesTea wins by far. The problem about this argument and more than 90% of the "arguments" in this topic is that this game was not about the ghosts. NesTea did so many other mistakes regarding handeling the situation that the ghosts wasn't the main problem but for most novice this can appear as such since they were the terran units constantly killing NesTea's poorly controlled and optimized attacks, much like how folks always whine about "OMG MASS ROACH IS OP!" or "MMM op versus everything!" or "Deathball protoss is unstoppable!" this is because it seems as such when one player gets totally stompt and people want to determine why. It is also a shallow reason at most and just not true; NesTea in his doom dropt stopt his own overlords from dropping the final banelings on the ghosts, he dropped them on tanks/marines/buildings but then, having the overlords selected and no other major concern (banking so many minerals and not rebuilding for the rest of the game either) and yet he didn't travel the last 20 meters with the overlords and drop the final banelings even though this could've killed atleast 8+ Ghosts. His last attack was just an idiocy and there is no point to it, he didn't bring his detection against ghost, there is no argument against this, nor did he bring any antiair or infestors that he had. Other players perhaps might do this mistake but a 3 GSL winner who has underperformed the whole game and not rebuilt what little of his got killed by the nukes/drops that might've made him "flustered". He could've built 53 hatcheries with his amount of money, yet he didn't mine out half his bases. Other than this, he didn't use his mutas half as much as he usually does (it might've looked like they did alot, but all they did was kill 1 orbital and a few SCVs yet they were largly uncontested for a long while before finally becoming obsolete. Any zerg knows that when alot of marines/ghosts move away from the tanks you prod the tanks to at the very least see if they're undefended, Mvp had 10+ tanks sitting in the middle when he defended his base against the brood lords (the first time) that were totally undefended. 3. "He just got flustered! It happens!" This might once again be true or not, I can't judge, I just don't believe it. All the games I've seen NesTea he has never underperformed this much, there is no excuse to why it took 15 minutes for NesTea to die banging his head against Mvp's defences whilst not rebuilding his lost hatcheries, there just isn't. If he has time to macro up Ultralisks (which is probably the worst unit choice of all against a turteling terran with ghosts) then he has time to add 4 hatcheries, it is literally like 12 APM. The ghosts might've killed hatcheries and yes NesTea for some reason did nothing whilst nukes were landing on the same bases and didn't even try to move his drones (or so it seemed), it still cost MVP 400 minerals 400 gas to kill each of those hatcheries, so he only gained a few minerals on the death of the drones whilst losing gas which is never a good trade for a terran. This should not have paralyzed NesTea and regardless what the solution is for mass ghosts: Anyone, ANYONE knows that it sure as hell ain't unsupported Brood Lords. Heck why should NesTea even attack? He had the most of the map, there is no logic behind attacking a defensive terran and we all know this, nobody wins against a defensive terran who has had time to build in. Yes there were alot of drops, but NesTea has had games last 40 minutes where there was nonstop action and he still harnesses every damned unit/mineral, this is why he is a 3 time GSL champion to begin with and I don't get why people are cutting him slack as if this is normal behavior for someone of his caliber: It isn't. Pray tell though and notice how NesTea at first does a superb job denaying drops, to in the later half not stopping them at all or even rebuilding what little they did kill (10k+ in resources and a 300hatch+300drone expansion isn't a drop in the ocean). You might say he got flustered, I refuse to believe he would've that easily because to be frank he wasn't under serious preasure at all. He was losing some unnecessary bases and that is it, Mvp wasn't pushing or laying weight down on NesTea's unit line. 4."NesTea tried everything to attack! He did his best!" No he didn't, as I've stated above in multiple examples all NesTea did this match was first a quite lame mutalisk harass, followed by broodlords (that also were undefended to begin with), followed by a bad doomdrop that wasn't controlled at all (or even had all it's units unloaded), followed by suiciding 40+ banelings, followed by unsupported Broodlords. First of all as I said above there was no reason for him to even attack to begin with, he had the most bases on the map, he should've had 500 godamn larvee ready to spawn out the biggest 300/300 push ever to be seen by man but instead we got three huge mineral suicides for no apparent reason. Second of all; He didn't try anything other than units we all know fail against ghosts. This is not the innovative zerg we know and love, he doesn't do a IdrAesque way of style where he bangs his had against a hard rock and says the rock is overpowered, he finds a way to circumvent that rock, he didn't here. He banged his head multiple times with no reason to do so to begin with. These are my five cents. | ||
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DrAbuse
Germany209 Posts
On October 23 2011 16:13 epik640x wrote: I think Nestea knew to make the matches interesting for the foreign newer audience. Blizz might have edged him on in that direction. I think the same way. They wanted to put up a great finish for the arguably largest audience ever. It was two teammates and most people would agree to split the price-money in that situation (whoever was at the final table of a poker tournament know this). | ||
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SharkWithLaz0rs
19 Posts
He sees ghosts when he pushes the main with his broodlords, he makes 0 overseers. 5? nukes land before he makes any at all? He sends his first 7? broodlords in alone they get demolished by 3vikings and some ghosts, meanwhile his muta's are by his main doing nothing. His spawning pool gets dropped and is left on sub 50HP, he doesnt remake it, 2 more drops come, one fails and he finally remakes when it dies. His nydus worm he drops infront of a thor which is broodlord is shelling, so not only can it be seen, its also where MVP is likely to be looking. He also loads so much into that Nydus it takes 25 ingame seconds to unload and he can fully afford two, three or four. He makes no attempt to cover the nydus with an attack or run by to distract. He makes drones when hes on 10k+ minerals and 6k+ gas. Theres 3/4 instances of this occuring. His mass broodlord army, which first of all he makes after he's seen 2000 ghosts on the field, gets scanned, he doesnt leave any corrupters knowing fully well his opponent has seen the broods so will produce vikings. He doesnt throw away drones, still has 80+ with 10k / 6k in the bank. He doesnt move units away from a single nuke, the one he attempts to stop he fails. He "mass drops" into the main even tho he has a nydus already built, uppon dropping he doesnt really achieve anything, theres no way a player of his calibur doesnt have a plan (pull his army back push 3rd / 4th locations? Mass fungal the ramp has he tries to move up, target fire production buildings? - he actually focus' both engineering bays down when he knows his opponent is at 3/3) And the main thing: He doesnt make a single proper attack when hes maxed with all that money in the bank, he spends the whole time fucking around doing nothing. ~115 banelings and he does nothing but sit on them for 5minutes? There is absolutely no way that is the play coming out of a 3times GSL champion. Also i think MVP's reaction shows he knew it. I agree with him that MVP's lack of happiness / emotion after the game and the way he quickly left the stage was pretty telling. | ||
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kodas
United States418 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:18 SharkWithLaz0rs wrote: Saw this on reddit, thought it was worth reposting here. It nicely sums up all the things NesTea did in that game that are making a number of people believe that he was playing more to give the crowd a show rather than to win. I agree with him that MVP's lack of happiness / emotion after the game and the way he quickly left the stage was pretty telling. Not really if you had watched whenever MVP played, he did not get very many cheers, MVP was the guy everyone was rooting to lose.Just look at the GSL finals, almost no one was cheering for him, I honestly think he was disturbed with the crowd there and just wanted to leave...I meant it's pretty obvious from the amount of noise the crowd makes compared to when he wins/loses... I'm pretty sure it was easy for him to pick up on that. | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Mappool for blizzcon was terrible too. How are zergs supposed to veto there? XNC is terrible for zvt, abyssal horizontal can become truly awkward, shaku becomes lategame mapsplit, shattered 33% chance for autoloss and antiga also has very tough leapfrogging pushes and easy gold holdings for terran if it's not xpos. Not to forget rampblocking possibilities Sure you may find bad stuff for any race on any map, but compared to current regular map pools like 80% of the maps had it worse for zerg. | ||
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SharkWithLaz0rs
19 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:24 David451 wrote: Sure smells like armchair quarterbacking up in here. You don't think lots of those things listed are mistakes that are extremely out of character for NesTea? Not moving units away from nukes multiple times? Massing a ton of broods even though you know your opponent has units that counter that composition very hard? Doing a "doom drop" and then not microing it at all? Sending in your first group of 7 broodlords with no cover from other units? The stupid nydus play? Even when the game was live, it felt very, very strange. I've stayed up late and screwed up my sleep schedule many times to watch NesTea play, and the guy in that last game wasn't the same guy I've watched many times before. | ||
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English
United States475 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:23 kodas wrote: Not really if you had watched whenever MVP played, he did not get very many cheers, MVP was the guy everyone was rooting to lose.Just look at the GSL finals, almost no one was cheering for him, I honestly think he was disturbed with the crowd there and just wanted to leave...I meant it's pretty obvious from the amount of noise the crowd makes compared to when he wins/loses... I'm pretty sure it was easy for him to pick up on that. I was there, and although everyone was rooting for MMA in the GSL Finals, the majority was definitely rooting for MVP in a full Hall D. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:29 SharkWithLaz0rs wrote: You don't think lots of those things listed are mistakes that are extremely out of character for NesTea? Not moving units away from nukes multiple times? Massing a ton of broods even though you know your opponent has units that counter that composition very hard? Doing a "doom drop" and then not microing it at all? Sending in your first group of 7 broodlords with no cover from other units? The stupid nydus play? Even when the game was live, it felt very, very strange. I've stayed up late and screwed up my sleep schedule many times to watch NesTea play, and the guy in that last game wasn't the same guy I've watched many times before. Nestea always looks pretty bad in ZvT, even games he wins. He just doesn't have the godlike unit control, engagements or multitasking people would like him to have. I'm a fan of his but his lack of micro is really frustrating to watch sometimes, like, most of his ZvTs you can easily find him attack moving banelings into tanks. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:23 kodas wrote: Not really if you had watched whenever MVP played, he did not get very many cheers, MVP was the guy everyone was rooting to lose.Just look at the GSL finals, almost no one was cheering for him, I honestly think he was disturbed with the crowd there and just wanted to leave...I meant it's pretty obvious from the amount of noise the crowd makes compared to when he wins/loses... I'm pretty sure it was easy for him to pick up on that. MVP was getting a ton of cheers in the pregame of the GSL Finals. From where I was sitting (at the 3D display that crashed during game 2 for everyone wondering about the drop). It was honestly hard to tell if the crowd was more behind MVP or MMA during the GSL Finals.* I watched the Invitational Finals while waiting in line at the game stations, so I don't know what it was like at the actual stage, but where I was he got a lot of cheers whenever he beat Nestea. Nestea got cheers too when he won on Antigua, but it wasn't as if the crowd was more for Nestea or anything. * At least pre-game, after Game 1 the MMA fans got much louder. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Same goes for nestea. I don't think nestea has over 30% chance in winning mvp, so ofc I wish he would win. | ||
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pred470r
Bulgaria3265 Posts
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On October 23 2011 17:50 fraktoasters wrote: Nestea always looks pretty bad in ZvT, even games he wins. He just doesn't have the godlike unit control, engagements or multitasking people would like him to have. I'm a fan of his but his lack of micro is really frustrating to watch sometimes, like, most of his ZvTs you can easily find him attack moving banelings into tanks. Nestea's unit control and multi-tasking has always been the weaker part of his play. I still remember him sending 20 mutas right over a whole army of marines and losing pretty much every single one. His decision making is often questionable in ZvT, even in the early game. Combine this with the fact that MVP is incredibly scary at split map TvZ, I think Nestea was just completely lost as to how to break him, hence the 20+ broodlord desperation attack. | ||
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