EPTUPDATE HISTORY
15/08/12: Added Part 4.1 about knowing your gear slot potentials, weighing slots as offensive/defensive/balanced, maximising EHP on a single slot.
17/08/12: Further example elaborating on HP sustain/damage received break even points, linked in Part 3.3.
PREFACE
Hi TLers, my name is Trang. Some of you may recognise me as someone who has lately been quite active on the Barb Builds/Discussion Thread. To my pleasant surprise, against a backdrop of WW/Sprint being flavour of the month, there still seems to be an interest in the what is known as the Tank Barb, 1H+Shield Barb, Sword and Board Barb, or whatever you want to call it! This motivated me to advise my fellow barbs on how to progress down this line. Unfortunately, however, I have lately found myself answering the same questions over and over, not to anyone's fault. I can totally understand how people are discouraged by the prospect of looking backwards though a 118 page thread, just to find information.
This is why today I am creating this thread to put all information on 1H+Shield Barbs in one place, away from the distracting chatter of WW/Sprint Barbs
Also, sorry about the big walls of text, I’m used to writing in prose (lawyer). But I’ll try my best to present the information effectively through good structure and highlighting key points.
1 INTRODUCTION
1.1 What is the Tanky DPS Barb?
I prefer to use the term Tanky DPS Barb. What is a Tanky DPS Barb? It is more than just a Barbarian which uses a 1-hand weapon and a shield. The philosophy behind a Tanky DPS Barb is as follows: maximise DPS meanwhile being tanky enough to fight uninterrupted and indefinitely without reliance on Fury, Cooldowns or Life on Hit.
- Unlike a WW/Sprint Barb, you do not rely on gimmicky Fury management, high Critical Chance for Overpower, or Life on Hit for sustain.
- Unlike a simple Tank Barb, your only purpose isn’t to simply attract attention away from your DPS-centric party members, since on your own it would take forever to kill anything.
- Unlike Dual-Wield or 2-Hand Barbs, it is not about the fine balance between being able to burst down enemies in time before they kill you first, and/or kiting while waiting for cooldowns like Ignore Pain/Leap --- and you certainly don’t want to be dependent on waiting for Wrath of the Berserker/Earthquake to cooldown before you can burst elites in time.
- Instead, you rely on having a very high EHP (Effective Hit Points) and using Revenge as your primary reliable source of sustain, while maximising your damage potential (in terms of both skills and gear).
As an example, here is my Tanky DPS Barb as it is today (buffed with Warcry, Battle Rage and Enchantress):
Gear: http://i.imgur.com/xrqQe.jpg
Skills: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#WVSRkP!ZVb!accacZ
1.2 Why play the Tanky DPS Barb?
With my current barb, my key stats are as follows (I will explain later why these are the important stats I am focussing on):
- DPS: 48,500
- EHP without block or dodge: 2,135,000
- EHP with dodge, without block: 2,372,000
- EHP with block, without dodge: 3,953,000
- EHP with block and dodge: 4,393,000
My EHP with block is calculated assuming enemies hit for 70K unmitigated damage (ball park average for Act 3 Inferno).
To put the EHP in context, against attacks that cannot be blocked, I can take on average 33 hits before dying. Against blockable attacks, I can take a whopping 62 hits before dying.
Taking out the luck factor of dodge altogether, I can reliably take 30 unblockable hits, and 56 blockable hits. NB For the rest of this post I will assume the absence of dodge, since at 10%, it is a less reliable measure of EHP.
Now let’s take into account Revenge (Provocation). 30% of hits will allow me to use Revenge to get back 5% of my EHP per target. Using the EHP numbers above, 5% EHP is equivalent to 1.5 unblockable hits, or 2.8 blockable attacks. Assuming that I have at least 3 targets within my Revenge range, my Revenge will keep me at full HP indefinitely. Against only one target, I can sustain almost indefinitely if its attacks are blockable.
Of course, these numbers are based on assumptions (such as all attacks being 70K damage unmitigated). Elite affects throw this out a bit. Meanwhile being surrounded by many white/trash mobs makes sustain ridiculously easy.
As you can see the Tanky DPS Barb is super tanky. Mine can take on 3 elite packs at a time. Meanwhile I am dishing out 48.5K DPS with your Frenzy (Sidearm) which does a small AoE, and 220% AoE weapon damage per Revenge. As a Tanky DPS Barb, you also feel pretty badass --- the more enemies you are surrounded by, the more you can stand in the middle and laugh as it becomes easier to sustain off of Revenge.
But why play the Tanky DPS Barb over other builds? Here are some things to think about:
1. You don’t have to wait for 2 minute cooldowns to burst elites.
2. No fury gimmicks. This means you are not useless in a party game.
3. No reliance on defensive cooldowns. This means you can tank for longer in party games without having to kite. This also means lag will not affect you as badly --- just hold down left click, spam right click, and laugh at the thought that you don’t care about the lag.
4. No reliance on Life on Hit to keep your health up. True, you use Revenge. But if you feel like it you can run around like an ass hat and take 30+ hits before engaging, without dying.
5. Not dependent on Critical Hit mechanics. You don’t need to stack the all expensive Critical Hit Chance gear on your armor slots just to stay alive or keep fury up.
6. Not dependent on Attack Speed. Unlike LoH IAS Monks, you don’t care how fast or slow you hit. You can hit slow and hard if you want to be badass, or swing faster if that’s your thing. This opens up your weapon type choices --- ie you are not limited to 1.4 APS Swords, but can also use Spears/Maces etc.
2 STUFF EVERYONE NEEDS TO KNOW
So you decided you want to play a Tanky DPS Barb now. Or you didn’t. Doesn’t matter. This is stuff which everyone needs to know to make the right choices about progressing their character.
2.1 Understand EHP (Effective Hit Points)
You will need to know the relationship between VIT, RES, Armor and %Life on how it affects your EHP. There are numerous useful guides out there. I will not go into it, but I will reiterate that there are no diminishing returns on any of these stats, so if you still think there then I suggest you go and do the research (which unanimously says there are no diminishing returns).
For the Tanky DPS Barb, all that matters in terms of your tankiness is EHP. Not your, total HP, not your All RES, not your Armor, not your Damage Reduction %. EHP, and EHP alone, is the number which determines how many hits you can take before you die in the absence of sustain. As for sustain, in our case, Revenge sustain scales with EHP, unlike LoH for example which scales off Damage Reduction (RES/Armor). Therefore, only EHP matters.
2.2 Understand DPS (Damage Per Second)
That ‘Damage’ number on that character sheet of yours is determined by many factors. Make sure you understand the relationship between Damage (from weapons and other gear), STR, AS (Attack Speed), CC (Crit Chance), CD (Crit Damage). Keep in mind that contrary to what anyone else might say, there is no single stat that will always be the better one to stack for everyone’s situation at every stage of their gear development. There seems to be a Crit Damage addiction as of late, and everyone prioritises a socket on a weapon when simply more flat Damage or STR would do a better job for the same price. So for us Tanky DPS Barbs, all that matters is the ending DPS stat as shown on your character sheet.
There is one small qualification, in that slower AS for the same DPS will mean harder hitting Revenges, but it’s a small point which you don’t have to worry about too much.
As for Crits, none of our mechanics rely on CC, so there is no need to prioritise it if the DPS is the same. Keep in mind though, that as you stack more CC and CD, they synergise for large DPS increases, so you might consider this for the long term.
2.3 Use a EHP/DPS Calculator
Ever had a situation looking at the AH, thinking ‘hmm I don’t know if this is better or not’? Ever seen the many many posts on forums saying ‘Is this item X or item Y better’? For the latter question the best answer is always ‘it depends on the rest of your gear’. Not everyone’s gear is the same, so the quality of one item depends on what your overall stats are based off your other gear. Please, use a calculator. They will also give you a better understanding of how EHP/DPS increase with other stats.
Here is the calculator I use: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4797101607?page=2#24
EDIT: 2.4 Know Gear Slot Potentials
I am covering this in Part 4.1 under GEAR, but this is stuff that everyone needs to know. So I'm putting a note of it here. Every class and build can benefit from knowing this.
3 OVERALL APPROACH TO THE TANKY DPS BARB
Okay now we’re getting into the meat. Here is my overall approach to progressing a Tanky DPS Barb.
3.1 Tank first, build DPS later
As stated previously, a Tanky DPS Barb wants to be able to attack continuously without needing to kite. Therefore, you need to be sufficiently tanky first. Then afterwards, you can build your DPS to kill faster. Do not try to do it the other way. I have seen many barbs with 30-40K DPS, but very low EHP, and they say they struggle to kill Act 3 elites before enrage timers. Meanwhile, in my Barb's early days I could kill Act 3 elites before the enrage timer with under 20K DPS. Why? Because I was able to attack continuously, without wasting any time kiting.
You first need to build your EHP so that you can tank Act 3 comfortably. I don’t know how much is the minimum, but I imagine about 1,500K EHP will make you comfortable for the majority of situations in Act 3/4. (Edit: this is just a ballpark figure, not a rule. The EHP you need will depend on your Skill build too, which is covered below. So you can probably get away with less, but since I didn't start measuring my EHP until I was already past 1,500K I don't know how much less). You want to be able to stand in the centre of a crowd of white monsters and be able to survive for a minute without relying on much more than Revenge. If you can’t do this, you won’t survive the harder elite fights. Abilities like Leap/Furious Charge/Ignore Pain are only there to save you in a tough situation (walled into arcane beams, or you are really unlucky with Revenge procs). You can’t rely on them as your primary tanking skill because of their cooldowns.
As for Shields and Block Chance, it deserves it's own section, so I have a section on that in the Part 4 which focuses on Gear.
3.2 Every bit of EHP makes a difference
Every little bit of EHP can make a real difference. You might have worked this out when reading my discussion above about the calculated number of hits I can take, and EHP worth of hits I sustain back through Revenge.
Here’s another way of putting it, and I’m making up numbers here to illustrate the point. Say you have 40K HP, and your EHP is such that you take 5000 damage a second, but your Revenge gives you back 4000 life a second. You are at a net loss of 1000 damage a second. You will die in 40 seconds. Now, let’s increase your EHP by 10% (often achievable with just one slot upgrade). You now take only 4545 damage a second, and you heal back 4400 life per second through Revenge. Your net loss is now 145 damage a second --- you can now survive for 4-5 minutes. Pretty big change for one item slot huh?
EDIT: a more elaborate example demonstrating this idea of a HP/Damage break even point here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=360185¤tpage=2#23
3.3 Skills depend on your gear and playstyle
The only skills that I consider to be mandatory are Frenzy (Sidearm), Revenge (Provocation), War Cry (Impunity), Nerves of Steel. I think they are self-explanatory. So you have 3 active skills and 2 passives left. You will try to squeeze in as much offense as you can with the rest of the abilities, but there’s only so far I would go, which I will explain below.
A FULL tank build would use Frenzy, Revenge, War Cry, Threatening Shout, Furious Charge (Dreadnought), Leap (Iron Impact)/Ignore Pain (Ignorance is Bliss) with Nerves of Steel, Tough as Nails and Superstition.
As your gear becomes more tanky, you can gradually switch out abilities for DPS.
First offensive skill I would add is Wrath of the Berserker (Insanity). The extra damage, and immunity for Crown Control effects, are crucial to taking down difficult elites before taking too much damage. Next, I would add Berserker’s Rage (Marauder’s Rage) for the extra 30% DPS. As far as DPS skills go for a Tanky barb, I think those two are sufficient. You still want one defensive skill for when you get into tough spots. Which skills to favour out of Threatening Shout, Furious Charge, Leap and Ignore Pain are your own personal preference. I personally like Furious Charge for the extra sustain and ability to reposition/disengage.
As for passives, the first to drop is Superstition, and then Tough as Nails. I would probably drop Superstition for Ruthless before dropping one of my defensive skills for Berserker's Rage. Also, personally, I find that Weapons Master does not provide a big enough DPS increase to make it worthwhile to drop Tough as Nails.
A few notes on other skills that I don’t like in spoilers:
Brawler:
+ Show Spoiler +
I do not rate Brawler at all. Sure you will often find yourself surrounded by many mobs. But the hardest battles are those where you are up against Elites without any extra trash mobs. If there are many mobs around, Revenge should get you through the fight. When there are no trash mobs around, you want maximum single target DPS so you can kill it before your Revenge sustain is not able to keep up.
Maniac rune on Frenzy:
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, so given that many people do not agree on Sidearm v Maniac, I've looked into it a bit more.
Firstly, there are varying reports about whether the Sidearm axe grants extra LoH or not: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4888178773. It may be bugged, nobody seems to knows for sure. I can't tell you either way because I don't use LoH.
Secondly, here is a thread with discussion on the pros and cons of Sidearm and Maniac: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4848675017
I think it summarises well the different arguments people are making. It appears from this that Sidearm and Maniac are within the same ball park. Differences in effectiveness probably depend on your setup of gear and other skills. Anyhow, these are my reasons for me using Sidearm.
1. A reliable 27.5% dps boost on a single target, that does not depend on getting Frenzy stacks. Keeping Frenzy stacks might sound trivial, but if you think about it, the hardest fights are those elite fights where they kite you a lot and/or throw down effects that you have to kite (eg Frozen/Arcane etc). In these fights expect to lose your stacks often. Why are you trying to boost your ability to clear lots of trash mobs (which frankly you can just ignore and run past since you are a Tanky Barb), when you should be focussing on making the hardest fights easier (these are the important fights too since they drop the loot!). In these difficult fights, you're really looking more realistically at an average of 10-15% damage boost from Maniac.
2. Since I'm a Tanky Barb my only 2 sources of damage are Frenzy and Revenge, so Maniac is boosting only Revenge. Revenge damage is nice, but I don't rely on it for damage, so I don't consider boosting it with Maniac a big deal. Like I said before, the hardest fights are those ones with just elites, and so your Revenge won't proc all that much. In addition with those kiting elite mobs, your Revenge probably will only manage to hit one target at a time. In these difficult fights, do I want a 10-15% overall damage buff or a solid 27.5% boost that can sometimes hit targets that aren't in range of your Revenge too.
3. Sidearm helps clear those annoying ranged mobs, so you don't have to go chasing them as much.
Firstly, there are varying reports about whether the Sidearm axe grants extra LoH or not: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4888178773. It may be bugged, nobody seems to knows for sure. I can't tell you either way because I don't use LoH.
Secondly, here is a thread with discussion on the pros and cons of Sidearm and Maniac: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4848675017
I think it summarises well the different arguments people are making. It appears from this that Sidearm and Maniac are within the same ball park. Differences in effectiveness probably depend on your setup of gear and other skills. Anyhow, these are my reasons for me using Sidearm.
1. A reliable 27.5% dps boost on a single target, that does not depend on getting Frenzy stacks. Keeping Frenzy stacks might sound trivial, but if you think about it, the hardest fights are those elite fights where they kite you a lot and/or throw down effects that you have to kite (eg Frozen/Arcane etc). In these fights expect to lose your stacks often. Why are you trying to boost your ability to clear lots of trash mobs (which frankly you can just ignore and run past since you are a Tanky Barb), when you should be focussing on making the hardest fights easier (these are the important fights too since they drop the loot!). In these difficult fights, you're really looking more realistically at an average of 10-15% damage boost from Maniac.
2. Since I'm a Tanky Barb my only 2 sources of damage are Frenzy and Revenge, so Maniac is boosting only Revenge. Revenge damage is nice, but I don't rely on it for damage, so I don't consider boosting it with Maniac a big deal. Like I said before, the hardest fights are those ones with just elites, and so your Revenge won't proc all that much. In addition with those kiting elite mobs, your Revenge probably will only manage to hit one target at a time. In these difficult fights, do I want a 10-15% overall damage buff or a solid 27.5% boost that can sometimes hit targets that aren't in range of your Revenge too.
3. Sidearm helps clear those annoying ranged mobs, so you don't have to go chasing them as much.
3.4 Life on Hit is nice, but don’t rely on it
Everyone that says you need X minimum LoH to tank Act 3 is just stating their own personal story of how they did it. LoH isn’t the only way through. If you have sufficient EHP, Revenge with the occasional Furious Charge will be enough sustain to keep you alive. Think of LoH merely as reducing the EHP bar you need to reach to tank Act 3 (think back to the way I talked about net HP loss per second in Part 3.2). But consider this for a moment. Once you are sufficiently tanky, you will be replacing gear for more DPS.
Here's an example. Is it easier to replace an amulet with 100 STR and 200 VIT for an amulet with 200 STR and 200 VIT, or to replace an amulet with 100 STR, 100 VIT and 300 LoH for an amulet with 200 STR, 100 VIT and 300 LoH. You guessed it, the upgraded LoH amulet is WAY more expensive.
Another example, you have a 1H 800 DPS sword. And now you want more DPS. Well, getting a 950 DPS 1Hander with 300 LoH is going to cost you as much as it costs you to just get a 1050 or 1100 DPS 1Hander without LoH.
Moral of the story: LoH is always welcome, and certainly nice. But do NOT rely on it to tank, because once you do this it will be much more expensive to replace gear for more DPS.
3.5 Adding DPS --- Skills first, STR second, Crit last
Okay, so you can tank Act 3 now, but you kill things kind of slowly. How do you approach increasing your DPS?
First, tweak your skills, using the method described in Part 3.3. Why? First, it costs nothing, and you can tweak as much as you want through trial and error to see how much DPS you can get away with. Secondly, you will eventually be working towards a balanced tanky/DPS skill set up (something like my skill set up). Consider again Part 3.1: tank first, DPS later. If you know you can tank effectively with a balanced skill set up, then you know that any further items you buy to increase DPS will not reduce your tanking ability provided it maintains your current EHP. If, however, you change gear before skills, and you spent millions of gold to have 25k DPS with a full tank skill setup, and you decide you want to work towards that 40k DPS, then guess what --- you might find with your new skills that you are no longer able to tank, and you have to replace all your gear AGAIN.
After you have a balanced skill setup, next is gear. I did say STR then Crit (Chance and Damage), but really this is just a guideline. Whatever you can get your hands on is good. However, keep in mind that generally speaking, armor with VIT/RES/STR is easier to come by than VIT/RES/less STR/CC for the same price. DPS calculators will help you work out how best to increase your DPS. Keep in mind also that STR does increase your Armor. Cost and Armor are the reasons why I suggest STR as your first goal.
As for attack speed, it is nice, but don't give it any special treatment over a similar DPS increase from STR or Crit. Why? Revenge, which is a great source of AoE damage, does not scale off IAS. So it's nice, but not necessary.
4 GEAR, GEAR, GEAR
Yeah yeah, we know this game is all about gear. So I’ve taken some extracts from the Barb thread to demonstrate some of my principles in practice. I put each part in spoilers to reduce clutter.
Shields --- Block Chance is King --- Sacred Shields, Stormshield, Helm of Command, Justice Lantern, etc:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 19 2012 02:16 Trang wrote:
5. Block chance is king: Bonus block chance is really big. You are a 1H + Shield user. Why would you not try to maximise your block chance? You may as well get 50% extra dps as a 2hander if you aren't utilising your shield. The effect of block chance is hard to quantify from the character sheet alone. However, my experience, and the experience of many others shows that it makes a HUGE difference. You want all the block chance you can afford.
Buy a shield with high block chance and decent ALL RES. They are not expensive. Do NOT waste money on a Storm Shield, they are overpriced and their block amount is lower than the Sacred Shield. Get ONLY a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63). Start out with a 20% block chance with 70+ Res Sacred Shield. 20% is the highest natural block chance without any +%block attributes on the shield. These should be dirt cheap. Once you have more cash, try to get a higher block chance (27 to 29% is great) and then extra attributes like STR/VIT/CRIT once you have even more money (but these are expensive).
Helm of Command is so easy to get that it should be mandatory. One with average, but still useful, roles is cheap (meaning VIT with a bit of STR, or maybe a socket). Justice Lantern is very expensive, but if you can afford one, get one, though I would only try to get one once you are at the stage where you are thinking about trading tankiness for DPS --- since before that point you really just need to focus on maximising that EHP for as cheap as possible.
5. Block chance is king: Bonus block chance is really big. You are a 1H + Shield user. Why would you not try to maximise your block chance? You may as well get 50% extra dps as a 2hander if you aren't utilising your shield. The effect of block chance is hard to quantify from the character sheet alone. However, my experience, and the experience of many others shows that it makes a HUGE difference. You want all the block chance you can afford.
Buy a shield with high block chance and decent ALL RES. They are not expensive. Do NOT waste money on a Storm Shield, they are overpriced and their block amount is lower than the Sacred Shield. Get ONLY a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63). Start out with a 20% block chance with 70+ Res Sacred Shield. 20% is the highest natural block chance without any +%block attributes on the shield. These should be dirt cheap. Once you have more cash, try to get a higher block chance (27 to 29% is great) and then extra attributes like STR/VIT/CRIT once you have even more money (but these are expensive).
Helm of Command is so easy to get that it should be mandatory. One with average, but still useful, roles is cheap (meaning VIT with a bit of STR, or maybe a socket). Justice Lantern is very expensive, but if you can afford one, get one, though I would only try to get one once you are at the stage where you are thinking about trading tankiness for DPS --- since before that point you really just need to focus on maximising that EHP for as cheap as possible.
Additional notes: I now use this calculator to take into account block chance: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculator
Every extra 1% block chance gives me 75K more EHP against blockable attacks. This is HUGE, and is the reason why I still run with a Justice Lantern.
Now below, some discussion regarding Storm Shield and Justice Lantern. Feel free to form you own opinion on it!
On July 21 2012 06:21 BlueBird. wrote:
I can see what your saying about the cheap sacred being really cost effective, 1 mil is a nice cost. But I think stormshield is still a great go to shield in between that one and an insane sacred. Maybe I'm asking too much from sacred but on NA there are zero I'm interested in with crit, mf, all resist search. All resist + crit chance + block chance search doesn't leave me with any results either ;/.
I still can't get behind justice lantern, mobs just don't hit me hard enough for me to care about 900k ehp vs non elemental damages(even though 900k ehp is pretty damn insane for 1 piece of gear). If it gave you 900k ehp vs molten or something then i can see it being worth a slot(no questions asked), but I'd much rather have an all resist + vit + offensive stats in that slot. I think if your comfortable with this much ehp then it's ok, but I'd work on transitioning away from it so you can farm even faster, but feel just as comfortable.
I can see what your saying about the cheap sacred being really cost effective, 1 mil is a nice cost. But I think stormshield is still a great go to shield in between that one and an insane sacred. Maybe I'm asking too much from sacred but on NA there are zero I'm interested in with crit, mf, all resist search. All resist + crit chance + block chance search doesn't leave me with any results either ;/.
I still can't get behind justice lantern, mobs just don't hit me hard enough for me to care about 900k ehp vs non elemental damages(even though 900k ehp is pretty damn insane for 1 piece of gear). If it gave you 900k ehp vs molten or something then i can see it being worth a slot(no questions asked), but I'd much rather have an all resist + vit + offensive stats in that slot. I think if your comfortable with this much ehp then it's ok, but I'd work on transitioning away from it so you can farm even faster, but feel just as comfortable.
Reiterating the principle of Tank before DPS + comments on prioritising Physical/Fire over other Resistances:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 30 2012 11:37 Trang wrote:
Also furious charge, which is a much lower cool down, heals you and repositions you Only WotB breaks frozen though 
Agreed, LoH/Life Steal/Life Regen are not necessary per se. Think of Revenge as your primary source of sustain, and these stats only supplement the Revenge sustain you already have. In this sense, they lower the bar you have to reach in terms of EHP in order to tank for long enough, but if your EHP is sufficiently high you won't need them.
Boss fights like Diablo/Ghom where your Revenge hardly ever procs are an exception though, because an inexpensive amount of LoH will go a long way to making those fights easier --- so just have a weapon and amulet on switch for that.
You took your weapon off on your screenshot so looks like you have no DPS
It's ok, you mentioned you have around 25k in your previous post anyway.
Alright, so 25k dps is pretty good for where you're at. I was farming Act 2 fairly comfortably with lower DPS than that, and able to solo until the end of inferno on something like 15k.
This might sound a bit strange, but you will need more tankiness to kill faster. It makes sense when you think of it the following way. There's your character sheet DPS, and your actual DPS. If you are kiting half the time, you are actually doing half the DPS shown on your character sheet. If you are tanky enough you will be able to dish out the full amount of DPS without interruption. You want to aim to be able to keep attacking while standing in one elite effect, like Plague or Molten. This way you will be able to take down elites with much less interruption, and with 25K DPS you should be able to take down some or all of a pack within your WotB (in Act 2 anyway). Being able to tank 2 or more effects at once is what you're aiming for eventually, but right now at least be able to tank one effect.
Skills: Can't see your passives right now, but looking at your Armor it looks like you have dropped either Nerves of Steel or Tough as Nails? I certainly would keep both Nerves of Steel and Tough as Nails at the moment. Use Superstition if you feel elite effects are really messing you up badly, otherwise Ruthless.
Gear: Your STR is pretty good, you don't need more right now. It's actually your VIT/RES that are lagging behind. Some more Armor would always be nice too. I would say concentrate on increasing the VIT/RES/Armor on your gear slots without sacrificing STR, and worry about Crit later once you have about 1400-1500 STR and VIT, 10K+ Armor buffed (easier to achieve with both Armor passives), and 800+ RES buffed. These are just ball park figures, extrapolating from what I have now and based off my fuzzy memory. When gearing, take note of which Armor slots favour what stats. Finding high VIT is easy on Chest and Pants.
Edit: I just noticed your Crit chance is very good already. You don't need more right now
If you can't achieve a higher All RES without spending too much, prioritise Physical and Fire. Most damage dealt to you is physical, and most nasty elite effects are fire. Just remember to pay extra attention to dodging Arcane Enchanted. In my honest opinion Plague/Electrified aren't real threats on their own, and Frozen is only deadly for the lock rather than damage. So having your current All RES but 900 buffed in both Physical and Fire will also work. It will all depend on what good buys come up on the AH at the time.
Also consider getting a Helm of Command. The block chance will make a difference. I would aim for some STR, good VIT and a socket. It doesn't need RES. It'll be cheaper to find a HoC with 150 VIT than one with 80 VIT and 50 RES and the EHP is about the same on both. The socket is the most important, with a Star Amethyst (500k) thats 15% life, which is worth over 150 VIT on it's own in terms of EHP. Of course extra Armor is nice, but not as high priority as the other stats on your HoC.
On the subject of block chance, see if you can snag yourself a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63) with 70+ RES and 27-29% block. Just a blue one will do, you only need to search for RES and +% block. It will only cost you between 200k - 1M depending on the block amount, and your luck. If you really are on a budget, you can settle for 25% block for 100k or lower.
Hope this helps
Also furious charge, which is a much lower cool down, heals you and repositions you
Only WotB breaks frozen though Agreed, LoH/Life Steal/Life Regen are not necessary per se. Think of Revenge as your primary source of sustain, and these stats only supplement the Revenge sustain you already have. In this sense, they lower the bar you have to reach in terms of EHP in order to tank for long enough, but if your EHP is sufficiently high you won't need them.
Boss fights like Diablo/Ghom where your Revenge hardly ever procs are an exception though, because an inexpensive amount of LoH will go a long way to making those fights easier --- so just have a weapon and amulet on switch for that.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HMcZq.jpg)
You took your weapon off on your screenshot so looks like you have no DPS
It's ok, you mentioned you have around 25k in your previous post anyway.Alright, so 25k dps is pretty good for where you're at. I was farming Act 2 fairly comfortably with lower DPS than that, and able to solo until the end of inferno on something like 15k.
This might sound a bit strange, but you will need more tankiness to kill faster. It makes sense when you think of it the following way. There's your character sheet DPS, and your actual DPS. If you are kiting half the time, you are actually doing half the DPS shown on your character sheet. If you are tanky enough you will be able to dish out the full amount of DPS without interruption. You want to aim to be able to keep attacking while standing in one elite effect, like Plague or Molten. This way you will be able to take down elites with much less interruption, and with 25K DPS you should be able to take down some or all of a pack within your WotB (in Act 2 anyway). Being able to tank 2 or more effects at once is what you're aiming for eventually, but right now at least be able to tank one effect.
Skills: Can't see your passives right now, but looking at your Armor it looks like you have dropped either Nerves of Steel or Tough as Nails? I certainly would keep both Nerves of Steel and Tough as Nails at the moment. Use Superstition if you feel elite effects are really messing you up badly, otherwise Ruthless.
Gear: Your STR is pretty good, you don't need more right now. It's actually your VIT/RES that are lagging behind. Some more Armor would always be nice too. I would say concentrate on increasing the VIT/RES/Armor on your gear slots without sacrificing STR, and worry about Crit later once you have about 1400-1500 STR and VIT, 10K+ Armor buffed (easier to achieve with both Armor passives), and 800+ RES buffed. These are just ball park figures, extrapolating from what I have now and based off my fuzzy memory. When gearing, take note of which Armor slots favour what stats. Finding high VIT is easy on Chest and Pants.
Edit: I just noticed your Crit chance is very good already. You don't need more right now
If you can't achieve a higher All RES without spending too much, prioritise Physical and Fire. Most damage dealt to you is physical, and most nasty elite effects are fire. Just remember to pay extra attention to dodging Arcane Enchanted. In my honest opinion Plague/Electrified aren't real threats on their own, and Frozen is only deadly for the lock rather than damage. So having your current All RES but 900 buffed in both Physical and Fire will also work. It will all depend on what good buys come up on the AH at the time.
Also consider getting a Helm of Command. The block chance will make a difference. I would aim for some STR, good VIT and a socket. It doesn't need RES. It'll be cheaper to find a HoC with 150 VIT than one with 80 VIT and 50 RES and the EHP is about the same on both. The socket is the most important, with a Star Amethyst (500k) thats 15% life, which is worth over 150 VIT on it's own in terms of EHP. Of course extra Armor is nice, but not as high priority as the other stats on your HoC.
On the subject of block chance, see if you can snag yourself a Sacred Shield (iLvl 63) with 70+ RES and 27-29% block. Just a blue one will do, you only need to search for RES and +% block. It will only cost you between 200k - 1M depending on the block amount, and your luck. If you really are on a budget, you can settle for 25% block for 100k or lower.
Hope this helps
Importance of movement speed on your boots, dealing with kiting mobs, illusionists and nightmarish:
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On July 30 2012 11:51 Trang wrote:
Your stats are very good! Elite packs that run away will always be annoying. Try your best to corner them. 12% movement speed on your boots will also make quite a difference for these enemies. Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice some VIT/STR to for the movement speed.
Also illusionist mobs are a sword and board barb's wet dream most the time, because we can hit them with Revenge for sustain! I do agree the kiting elites with illusionist are extra annoying though. If you aren't already, turn on monster HP bars with numbers. You can use the HP numbers to work out which one is the real one as it always has the most HP.
Nightmarish can also be annoying. If you need to, use WotB with Insanity to burst down 1 mob or 2 during the CC immunity. This will then reduce the frequency of the fear coming up.
Sorry if I am stating stuff you already know, but hope this helps.
One last thing, you said you have 30k DPS with 5x Frenzy. This suggests to me you are using Maniac. Try Sidearm instead. Here's my discussion on how I compare the two runes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338323¤tpage=117#2334
I would like to add on top of that discussion, if you are having trouble against elite packs that kite, and also illusionists, then Sidearm will be more useful for you than Maniac.
Your stats are very good! Elite packs that run away will always be annoying. Try your best to corner them. 12% movement speed on your boots will also make quite a difference for these enemies. Personally, I'm willing to sacrifice some VIT/STR to for the movement speed.
Also illusionist mobs are a sword and board barb's wet dream most the time, because we can hit them with Revenge for sustain! I do agree the kiting elites with illusionist are extra annoying though. If you aren't already, turn on monster HP bars with numbers. You can use the HP numbers to work out which one is the real one as it always has the most HP.
Nightmarish can also be annoying. If you need to, use WotB with Insanity to burst down 1 mob or 2 during the CC immunity. This will then reduce the frequency of the fear coming up.
Sorry if I am stating stuff you already know, but hope this helps.
One last thing, you said you have 30k DPS with 5x Frenzy. This suggests to me you are using Maniac. Try Sidearm instead. Here's my discussion on how I compare the two runes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=338323¤tpage=117#2334
I would like to add on top of that discussion, if you are having trouble against elite packs that kite, and also illusionists, then Sidearm will be more useful for you than Maniac.
All about the incremental increases, also don’t underestimate solid STR/VIT/RES over things like Crit:
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On August 08 2012 12:50 Trang wrote:
You're making progress. At this point in the game, it's mostly about incremental increases. Searching all your slots on AH to see what small upgrades you can find at a good price. At the moment though, there are a few particular slots that jump out at me.
First, your chest has no All RES, you're going to want 50+ on those. Also a higher item level armor will get you more base armor, (+Armor affix is even nicer). Don't be afraid to drop a little STR on your Chest, since your Chest is a strong defensive slot since it favours VIT (refer to this page here http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/)
Your bracers have nice STR and perfect Crit. However, they aren't really helping you tank. It's ok to drop 2% or so Crit Chance so that you can get some VIT or RES. You could even drop it all together to get both VIT/RES. It's your call, play around with the numbers in a DPS/EHP calculator. But remember that as Sword and Board barbs, none of our mechanics depend on Crit Chance. Sure, it gives us more DPS, but it holds no special value compared with STR, provided both give the same DPS increase.
Another upgrade could be some extra %Life or VIT on your Shoulders, but I understand if you want to hold onto your MF and it's expensive to get an upgrade there. Shoulders are also a STR slot, so don't feel the need to sacrifice STR for VIT on shoulders.
Some VIT on your Amulet might also help. 200 STR/200VIT with some extra stats don't cost too much. Sometimes you'll find one with extra %Life or RES for pretty cheap. I don't know how much it costs to keep MF on it though. Again, keep in mind I run without LoH, and prefer solid EHP increases over small amounts of LoH. 200 VIT is nothing to scoff at, but it's your call if you prefer the LoH.
Other than that, it's all about gradual upgrades. Eg, extra VIT/%Life on you Belt, higher Armor on your Helm (or any slot you can find one actually), and better combined STR/VIT/RES on any slot you can afford.
Hope this helps.
Edit: forgot to look at your weapon. Yes I agree with SkyR, that you want a better weapon. More raw DPS, or socket, either is fine, it depends what you can get at a good price. However, at this stage I think you need to focus on making yourself a bit more tanky --- 27K dps is respectable --- then you can worry about upgrading your weapon later.
You're making progress. At this point in the game, it's mostly about incremental increases. Searching all your slots on AH to see what small upgrades you can find at a good price. At the moment though, there are a few particular slots that jump out at me.
First, your chest has no All RES, you're going to want 50+ on those. Also a higher item level armor will get you more base armor, (+Armor affix is even nicer). Don't be afraid to drop a little STR on your Chest, since your Chest is a strong defensive slot since it favours VIT (refer to this page here http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/)
Your bracers have nice STR and perfect Crit. However, they aren't really helping you tank. It's ok to drop 2% or so Crit Chance so that you can get some VIT or RES. You could even drop it all together to get both VIT/RES. It's your call, play around with the numbers in a DPS/EHP calculator. But remember that as Sword and Board barbs, none of our mechanics depend on Crit Chance. Sure, it gives us more DPS, but it holds no special value compared with STR, provided both give the same DPS increase.
Another upgrade could be some extra %Life or VIT on your Shoulders, but I understand if you want to hold onto your MF and it's expensive to get an upgrade there. Shoulders are also a STR slot, so don't feel the need to sacrifice STR for VIT on shoulders.
Some VIT on your Amulet might also help. 200 STR/200VIT with some extra stats don't cost too much. Sometimes you'll find one with extra %Life or RES for pretty cheap. I don't know how much it costs to keep MF on it though. Again, keep in mind I run without LoH, and prefer solid EHP increases over small amounts of LoH. 200 VIT is nothing to scoff at, but it's your call if you prefer the LoH.
Other than that, it's all about gradual upgrades. Eg, extra VIT/%Life on you Belt, higher Armor on your Helm (or any slot you can find one actually), and better combined STR/VIT/RES on any slot you can afford.
Hope this helps.
Edit: forgot to look at your weapon. Yes I agree with SkyR, that you want a better weapon. More raw DPS, or socket, either is fine, it depends what you can get at a good price. However, at this stage I think you need to focus on making yourself a bit more tanky --- 27K dps is respectable --- then you can worry about upgrading your weapon later.
Upgrading your weapon --- Hairy lays down the law on Crit Damage addiction + my additional comments:
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On August 08 2012 14:12 Trang wrote:
Yep totally agree with you there about doing the maths. This is why I always reiterate the importance of understanding all the factors that affect EHP/DPS, and using EHP/DPS calculators to compare gear. At the end of the day, all that matters is the end result of how high you can get your key stats (EHP/DPS/%Block for 1H+Shield Barbs) for the best prices you can find at the time. It doesn't matter what stats you use to get there.
Yep totally agree with you there about doing the maths. This is why I always reiterate the importance of understanding all the factors that affect EHP/DPS, and using EHP/DPS calculators to compare gear. At the end of the day, all that matters is the end result of how high you can get your key stats (EHP/DPS/%Block for 1H+Shield Barbs) for the best prices you can find at the time. It doesn't matter what stats you use to get there.
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On August 09 2012 15:33 Trang wrote:
A socket let's you put in a Crit Damage gem, that's 70% Crit Damage for about 600K. As for whether it's better to spend the same amount of gold on a socket or extra flat DPS depends on your current gear and Crit Chance. I'll reiterate the necessity of comparing items with DPS calculators. Nobody's situation is exactly the same, there is no general rule that applies for every case at every stage of gear progress, and you can only know what is better by looking up the numbers for your own character.
When reading advice about weapons, keep in mind that there are two primary reasons why people often talk about sockets as being the be all and end all.
First, dual wielders prioritise sockets for the huge + Crit Damage. This is true for WW/Sprint barbs especially, where the off-hand damage is not very important, so they value stats over DPS.
Secondly, once you are at end game with a 1100+ DPS weapon and decent Crit, for your next upgrade it becomes harder to get a higher raw DPS weapon that will give the same increase as a weapon with the same DPS and a socket (over 1200 DPS on a 1H isn't so common compared with 1100 DPS with a socket).
For people who are in either of these situations, the considerations affecting what makes a good weapon upgrade are unlikely to be the same as for you. So be wary, not all advice about weapons necessarily applies to your situation. Again, use a DPS calculator to compare similarly priced weapons with different stats, and you will see for yourself what is best for you right now.
In my experience, when I was at a similar stage of gearing, I found it cheaper to get decent DPS + STR on a weapon than to go looking for a socket. Something like ~1000 DPS with ~100 STR, depending on what you can afford. But you can confirm that for yourself Anyway, as stated in a previous post, I still think you need to upgrade some of your armor slots first.
Hope this helps.
A socket let's you put in a Crit Damage gem, that's 70% Crit Damage for about 600K. As for whether it's better to spend the same amount of gold on a socket or extra flat DPS depends on your current gear and Crit Chance. I'll reiterate the necessity of comparing items with DPS calculators. Nobody's situation is exactly the same, there is no general rule that applies for every case at every stage of gear progress, and you can only know what is better by looking up the numbers for your own character.
When reading advice about weapons, keep in mind that there are two primary reasons why people often talk about sockets as being the be all and end all.
First, dual wielders prioritise sockets for the huge + Crit Damage. This is true for WW/Sprint barbs especially, where the off-hand damage is not very important, so they value stats over DPS.
Secondly, once you are at end game with a 1100+ DPS weapon and decent Crit, for your next upgrade it becomes harder to get a higher raw DPS weapon that will give the same increase as a weapon with the same DPS and a socket (over 1200 DPS on a 1H isn't so common compared with 1100 DPS with a socket).
For people who are in either of these situations, the considerations affecting what makes a good weapon upgrade are unlikely to be the same as for you. So be wary, not all advice about weapons necessarily applies to your situation. Again, use a DPS calculator to compare similarly priced weapons with different stats, and you will see for yourself what is best for you right now.
In my experience, when I was at a similar stage of gearing, I found it cheaper to get decent DPS + STR on a weapon than to go looking for a socket. Something like ~1000 DPS with ~100 STR, depending on what you can afford. But you can confirm that for yourself
Anyway, as stated in a previous post, I still think you need to upgrade some of your armor slots first.Hope this helps.
So you’re comfortable farming Act 2, but not quite Act 3? Here’s an example of a road map of how to progress:
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On August 10 2012 00:34 Kerans wrote:
This is just the kind of road map I was hoping for
As a matter of fact I just tried going back to Act 3 today, after dropping and Amethyst in the HoC (which I do everytime I try Act 3), getting a sacred shield with 23% block chance and all res (and a little less crit% indeed) and switching Ruthless for Tough as Nails, and things went smooth indeed for pretty much everything which didn't have extra health, some mobs I was even able to almost burst down in a single WotB.
Yeah, chest is indeed the next piece of the puzzle, I'll definitely work on that. Thanks again man!
This is just the kind of road map I was hoping for
As a matter of fact I just tried going back to Act 3 today, after dropping and Amethyst in the HoC (which I do everytime I try Act 3), getting a sacred shield with 23% block chance and all res (and a little less crit% indeed) and switching Ruthless for Tough as Nails, and things went smooth indeed for pretty much everything which didn't have extra health, some mobs I was even able to almost burst down in a single WotB.
Yeah, chest is indeed the next piece of the puzzle, I'll definitely work on that. Thanks again man!
EDIT: 4.1 Know Gear Slot Potentials
One of the most important things for knowing what to prioritise on what gear slots is knowing what every slot can potentially spawn with.
Use this reference page here: http://www.d3rmt.com/guides/diablo-3-item-stat-maximum-values/
You need to know this by heart for the following stats: STR, VIT, RES, %Life, CC, CD, IAS.
OK so let's apply some of these ideas. Each Armor slot favours one Core Stat, except Gloves which have 2 favoured stats, and Bracers which have none. For our purposes, Shoulders and Belts can spawn with 300 STR, and Chests and Pants can spawn with 300 VIT. Every other Armor slot can get only 200 STR/VIT. Rings get 178 of any stat, and Amulets 302 of any stat.
What does this mean? When looking for gear, prioritise high STR on Shoulders/Belts, and high VIT on Chests/Pants, to maximise their potential. Of course, you will try to get good STR/VIT otherwise on these slots and others too, but if you ever wondered why 125 STR and 125 VIT bracers seem so expensive for what you get, this is your answer.
Please note that the below is not intended to be any rule that must be followed. It's only a general guide is as to why it is most cost-efficient to gear in a certain way. If you find a good bargain that is contrary to the analysis below though, go ahead and buy it!
Offensive, Defensive, Balanced Weightings for Gear Slots
Now, I try to think of slots as either offensive or defensive or balanced. Shoulders/Belts are offensive because of the high STR. Chests/Pants are defensive. Helms, well your helm will be a Helm of Command. Bracers/Gloves are up to you, for me Bracers are balanced, and Gloves are more offensive. Boots for me a balanced since I run Sage Seekers for the 12% MS. My Amulet, and Ring (except my Justice Lantern) are balanced to offensive slots. You can see these weightings correlate with the STR/VIT/Crit stats these slots can spawn.
For the purpose of the following discussion, we will assume that 1 RES = 1.5 VIT. The ratio depends on your current gear, and chances are 1 RES < 1.5 VIT, but the round numbers make it easier. We'll also assume that 1%Life = 12 VIT. Again this ratio could change depending on your gear.
Now for a good, but not amazing, item slot with a defensive focus, I try to aim for around 60-80% of the defensive stat potential for the gear, and then 25-50% offensive stat potential. It is the reverse for a slot with an offensive focus. For a balanced slot, I try to get 40-60% for each stat. As you become more developed in gear, you will start to break past these ranges. These numbers are just a rough guideline, and I'll explain why I recommend this approach through examples below:
Example 1 --- Defensive Chests
First let's compare offensive versus defensive weighting for a Chest. Assuming a Chest with 50 RES, it is easier and cheaper to find a Chest with 200 (out of 300) VIT and 50 (out of 200) STR than a Chest with 125 VIT and 125 STR. This is because they are simply more abundant.
Ok so let's get more specific, and look at just the defensive stats. How do I weigh up RES/VIT priorities when searching the AH? Assume 50 STR. A Chest with 50 (out of 80) RES and 180 VIT is cheaper than 70 RES and 150 VIT, and the EHP-worth is about the same. Again, this is because Chests with 180 VIT are more abundant than Chests with 70 RES.
Because of this, you can get a Chest with 60 RES, 175 VIT and 75 STR for under 1M, while a Chest with 70 RES, 125 VIT and 100 STR will cost you more.
Example 2 --- Offensive Belts/Shoulders
Assuming 50 RES, try searching for a Belt with 125 STR and 125 VIT. Now try searching for a Belt with 175 STR and 50 VIT. Which one was cheaper? You bet, the second one. Try the same for Shoulders, you will find the same thing.
Maximising EHP for a Single Slot --- Amulet Example
As I described above, with the Chest example, sometimes it is cheaper to go for mid-range RES to get a higher VIT. Let's look at an example where the difference is more pronounced, the Amulet. For me the Amulet is a balanced to offensive slot. You want good STR, as well as one or a combination of CC/CD/IAS. You also want one or two defensive affixes though --- RES/VIT/%Life.
So let's consider the max defensive stats on your Amulet: 70 RES, 302 VIT, 14% Life. What does this translate to in terms of EHP using VIT equivalents. 105 VIT from RES, 302 VIT, 168 VIT from %Life. Flat VIT is the clear winner.
Many people on the AH don't understand EHP very well, and there tends to be an obsession with RES. You will notice on forum threads people always talk about how much RES they have or need. This is good for us. Guess what, it's easier and cheaper to find 75 VIT than 50 RES on an Amulet. It's easier to find 200VIT than 125VIT+50RES. Use and abuse this.
Further still, and this is something that breaks this 60-80% of potential guideline I was talking about. People undervalue %Life on Amulets for some reason. It is easier to find 80 VIT + 12%Life than 225 VIT or 150VIT + 50 RES. This is significant, because once you are add in the presence of 200 STR with a bit of CC/CD/IAS, then suddenly people realise that an extra 200 VIT is worth of a lot gold too, but people fail to price VIT + %Life together as high as they should be.
5 CLOSING REMARKS
The Tanky DPS Barb may not be as flashy as the WW/Sprint Barb or as bursty as a Dual-Wield/2-Hand Barb, but hopefully I have shown you that what makes the Tanky DPS Barb good is versatility. We’re good solo, but also in parties. Because of our innate tankiness that does not really on LoH, Cooldowns, or Fury gimmicks, we can tackle any situation the enemies throw at us --- swarms of mobs, multiple elite packs, bosses.
If you’re already trying to make a Tanky DPS Barb, good on you, keep persevering and I hope this post has helped you in some way. All the best!
Thanks
Trang
