Looking Back on 1 Years of Blood Bath on TLnet

On April 05 2005 20:03 exalted wrote:
I think this map is imbalanced for zvt (hard for the zerg, becuase it is so easy for the terran to take the middle with siege tank control and therefore prevent the Zerg from taking expos, and since there is only one gas node the Zerg can't do anything worthwhile.

On April 08 2005 11:02 FroST(TE) wrote:
im pretty sure any 12 pool 11 hatch build will get raped by the popular 6rax blood bath build

On April 08 2005 11:32 KillerPenguin wrote:
Its extremely imbalanced in t's favor imo. If t is smart he will rax first and bunker so u can't do anything rushing. Then he'll bunker choke with rine support so u still can't do anything. Then he'll get tanks and push u to death. With such close positions the great turtle terran defence becomes a great defence and offence. Yes you can siege the mins, no adding a geyser won't help.

On April 08 2005 13:24 logitech wrote:
heh, BB is indeed kinda inbalanced, and its sort of like this:
P > T (if P dual gates + cannon rush)
T > Z (if T rax early)
Z > P (if Z pool early)

On March 31 2005 11:13 RaGe-xG- wrote:
I used to play some blood bath games to improve my microing skills vs zealot rush..

really, try to 9 BS / 10 BB on blood bath vs a double gating P

you'll practically never win, but it sure makes you know what to do when they do it on LT

On December 22 2004 17:25 ProudCappi wrote:
What should I do vs. fast zealots? Should a build a rax at 8? Should I build a bunker?

On December 22 2004 17:34 SCFraser wrote:
just bunker right below Cc, and ya 8 rax, 9 depot
then go double rax to mmf or tech to vult and rape ^^ no room to squish = toss dead. just survive the fast zeal.

On December 22 2004 18:21 exalted wrote:


He's right for the most part, bunker by cc is not as safe but slightly better, I think just scout early, if he say 8/9/10 or 8/8/9 then you should just play defensively until you can tech and then win. Early game is the only time he can really kill you, once you get say like siege tank, you basically have entire map control XD

Do not play zvt on bloodbath

On December 23 2004 15:47 SCFraser wrote:
ya if you scout zeal cannon u have to 2 racks, but id still bunk by cc to defend against the 1st zeal, not have to take scvs off mins to defend. and if u try to zeal/cannon vs 2 racks ill rape u with rine/scv. Try me ^^

whats the standard b/o for zeal cannon ive never done it..
must be pylon, gate forge pylon cannon while pumping zeals?

ur gonna end up with 2/3 zeal vs 5 rine and 10 scv, so.. ur not gonna get a cannon in.

On December 22 2004 18:30 8882 wrote:
make a sort of wallin with depot and two barracks (if you consider going bio, which isnt that stupid)
then you can lift the barracks and place a bunker (dont forget marine range if you are teching to tank fast)
generally you can make that broken wallin, which helps you to defend vs zealot+cannon cheese

generally you can either go 8depot 9rax 10rax
or 8rax 9depot 11rax
academy when you have around 10marines (no bunkers), gas when you have around 12
2medics, slowly stim (or range if he is going mass goons), firebats if needed
3rax (you may skip)
factory

usually you dont need a bunker, however it may be useful

going 1barack->fact probably cant be done without some sort of wall (you can micro 2racks marines vs 2 gate zeals for some time, but not 1rax vs 2gate)+bunker (range? if he isnt stupid he will make goon range, so you need marine range and it means that you should have gone bio anyway)

On December 23 2004 15:32 Beast_Bg wrote:
8 rax 9 supply You dont need a bunker if you micro perfectly.Carefully form a line with scvs and attack if he tries to make cannons.If he doesnt tech to stim and medics ,but not too soon.You gotta have like 15 marines or so.Well, I suppose a very well timed marine/scv rush will be best.

On December 23 2004 15:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
8 rax, supply at 9 blablabla.

I usually try to "Wall off" my mineral line with the rax and suppy depot so my marines pop out on the inside with the scv's. Of course there's a big enough hole for the rines to get out and the zeals to get out. Usually this is enough since it forces the zealots to figth inside a field of scv's under marine fire and that doesn't work to well. If you micro a bit the zealots die. If he tries to cannon you collect all scv's, lift rax and kill it. If he doesn't mass marines from 2 barracks for a while and continue to mass as many scv's as possible. Then before he can't get goons take everything and use your scv's (your going to have a bundle) to kill him. If he tries to cannon up to prevent this then don't attack, instead stop scv production, get gas and bunker up untill you have siege tank. Your siege tank plus the biomech (you allready have rines so only add medics) will kill him since there's no room to really do anything.

While on the topic: Is there any way to really win vs toss when your zerg? I tried 5 pool and that didn't help. I haven't tried 4 pool, it migth be fast enough but on the other hand they see it coming from miles away. I can win vs idiot tosses who goes fast forge because then I just get another hatch and power like crazy untill I have lurkers. (Still pool before the hatch tho.)

On December 23 2004 17:42 8882 wrote:
zvp you can go fast hydra speed and micro the shit out of him

I used to go 6pool-ling harass, sunken, hydra den, fast speed
if he went cannons just power a bit and make range, kill what you can and power more, maybe tech to lurkers

generally some sort of 9pool->sunk->hydra harass is good too
if he goes cannons you should be happy, hydras with range upgrade work good against them

the only problem is a smart toss which expects your bo and makes some sort of zeal->cannon->fast HT/reaver, because it is very hard to dodge storms

you need to harass well with lings/hydras

On December 24 2004 00:12 HULKAMANIA wrote:
OK, ladies. No offense, but I don't exactly see a wellspring of useful information pouring out in your replies. I take it most of you don't play Bloodbath very seriously. Personally, I have played more Bloodbath in my Starcraft career than any other map. It was my first love - much like Vanilla SC which I also play almost exclusively.

You may have an issue with a Vanilla player dishing out advice on a BroodWar strategy forum, but let me let you in on a little secret about the Bath, the early game is exactly the same for both the original and the expansion. Early game on Bloodbath involves minimal tech unless you happen to find yourself in a TvT. But if at any point you feel the additional units of BW would nullify the effectiveness of these strategys, feel free to discard them - or come back to Vanilla and tell them Hulk sent you.

The matchups you're all discussing do happen to be the stickiest ones, too. So I'll get down to brass tacks here and share some successful gems of strategy for each one.

The golden rule of Bloodbath is that you can't cheat. You can't go early expo, you can't go early tech, you can't even attempt to cheese your way into a win against a competent player. You have to play heads-up and execute airtight micro and you have to earn your tech. You also have to know exactly what your opponent is doing, but this is Bloodbath after all - recon isn't hard.

TvP

The matchup that spawned this thread was TvP @ BB so I'll start there. My TvR and TvP builds are identical, so there is no issue there.

9 - Rax
9 - Depot
10 - Rax

Build tightly enough that your buildings provide cover against zealots, but do not build so tightly that you have a hard time mobilizing against your opponent when the time comes for an attack. Most importantly do not expose any supply depots. Make sure you can cover them from harassment be it of the ling or zeal variety.

The point of this 9 rax build is to be strong enough economically to allow you to keep up with a protoss player (admittedly you'll be slightly behind but the center-advantage of Terran on BB will make up for it), and to simultaneously enable you to punish the protoss if he gets too greedy with your 2 available raxes. Obviously timing and recon are important. Just remember you're protecting your passage to mid-game where the scales will tip back in your favor while remaining powerful enough to pose a threat to him early-game. You have to keep him on a tight leash and then choke him to death when the time comes.

The fact of the matter is that, all things being equal, a 1-base Terran with a strong enough economy who has earned his tech will generally be in a position to wail on a 1-base Protoss in a similar stage of economic and technological development. The Terran can hold the center of the map like a pitbull. The general thrust of your Terran vs. Protoss early game should be to put you in a position whereby you can make the above scenario happen. To do this you must be ready to counter any schemes that bastard protoss has cooked up early game. Generally, you will see a toss assume 3 dispositions:

Hardcore Zealot Harassment

This is simply a 2 gate/3 gate zeal pump. A good toss will try to stay in your base as long as possible and pound on you until you're so turtled up your scvs have to pass a good four or five bunkers on their way back to the command center. At this point his ranged goons will have arrived and you'll have absolutely no place to put your fac. His dragoons will rape you all to hell, you'll type "lol this map sux," and then exit the game. We've all been there. It's a sad saga.

In order to counter a 2 gate zeals with 2 rax rines (going more than 2 raxes is asking to get raped imho but I don't have time to explain here), you have to take your choke with a bunker. I repeat: take your choke with the bunker. You cannot be cost effective with a bunker in preventing harassment unless it is at your choke. You'll have to take your choke pretty early in the matchup, right as your 2 rax has kicked into gear and before his zeals start rolling out full-steam. From here you are on your way to being able to dominate the center. Pump rines as needed, keep your recon up, prioritize scv production, and prepare rumble into the center when your factory tech kicks in.

Things to watch for:

1) A Protoss who drops everything and starts teching as soon as you take your choke. The counter to this is simple. Prioritize marine production and go rail on him with scv/rine.

2) A Protoss who expands immediately. Counter this the same way. Keep your rine pump going full-tilt and go level his main for him. He will had to skimp on zeals to expo this early.

In Summary:

1) Prevent harassment by holding your choke.
2) Take the necessary steps to usurp the center.
3) Finish the Toss.

The Cannon Rush

The Cannon Rush comes in two varieties - retarded and less retarded. The retarded cannon rusher will be forge only, dispatch him at your leisure. The less retarded cannon rusher will hit you very early with zeals and a cannon attempt - usually aimed at your geyser. Chances are if the toss gets to your gas with a cannon, you're too far up Shit Creek to paddle your way back into the game.

However, both cannon rushes die easily enough if you nip them in the bud. The counter is much the same as outlined above. If you scout a forge, wait for that critical moment when your rines (and a couple of scvs) will be able to steamroll anything he can field and take your choke with a bunker. A 1 gate 1 forge build or a 2 gate build burdened by a forge can't break you if you take your choke properly. From here the game is yours.

Things to watch for:

1) A 1 gate cannon rusher who is teching hard behind his attack. This could spell early goon or fast reaver - both of which are trouble in the right hands. The counter should be familiar by now. Beef up your rine force and go ream his base. The only difference is he may have cannoned himself up at home to try to survive this and come out ahead in the tech-race. However, if your harassment is strong enough, he will have to spend too much on cannons to succeed with this strat. Use offensive bunkers to your advantage. If you wound and fluster him (or even kill him if he comitted too many sins), you're back in prime rape position come mid game.

2) A toss who cannons his own choke and then powers and techs like a madman. He shouldn't be too much of a threat. Simply power and tech in a similarly madmanesque fashion. You can send a rax over to scout, too, and then counter him accordingly.

Summary:
1) Keep your eyes peeled for it early game.
2) Stop it before it starts.
3) Take the necessary steps to control the map.
4) Proceed to rape.

Quick Tech

The last thing you want is a well powered, well teched Protoss running around on Bloodbath with you. There are a million and one things he can do to keep you out of the center while he secures an expo or two. But don't worry; while failing to counter this build produces the most theatrically cataclysmic results, it's the easiest to counter.

The 9 rax build I proffered here was created with quick techers in mind. They break the golden rule of bloodbath and it is your job to punish them. You'll find yourself very much in a situation like you were gas-capped on Temple and you're forced to counter w/ rine scv except there is no ramp for the Protoss to hide atop.

All you have to do is attack him at the proper time with about 6-8 rines and as many scvs as you want to throw at him. If you don't do anything stupid, his build leaves him at your mercy.

So that's a basic overview of TvP on Bloodbath. I have just realized how long this post will be if I type out my thoughts on ZvP or ZvT, but, don't worry, I can hint at them in a few words.

- Go 9 pool 9 gas.
- Harass like your life depends on it.
- Make sure if the match enters mid-game, you're at a substantial advantage.

So questions? Comments? I'll answer any BB quandaries you have here or in PM. Just make sure they doesn't involve sairs or medics or dts or other instruments of post-classical warfare.

On February 06 2004 19:03 Teroru wrote:
i love the map.

it will be one of the most intense games you play if the 2 players are good. It normally involves non-stop harassing going on simultaneously at both bases.

Any1 who plays the game with their mind instead of by memorizing b/o's and watching replays should be able to as easily adapt on Blood bath as any other map imo.

whenever i see a public 1:1 bloodbath, i join it. I hardly ever find much competition on the map, but its still fun.

It is the real 'micro wars' map. It includes mutli-tasking, and lets you practice the most used micro. (Lings, Rines, Zeals)

On February 07 2004 01:40 SoL.Origin wrote:
terran would rape zerg bad because zerg has to go fast lurker and terran will have medics very fast and attack before zerg even starts making lurkers, so zerg will have to make lings and burrow or make lots of sunkens so either way zerg is fucked cuz terran goes fast vessel and holds zerg until he has vessel/tank and its gg, i think its very simple, zerg with 1 gas in zvt is fucked

On February 07 2004 04:34 8882 wrote:
Blood bath is a very good map.
p=t? Dunno what about the photon+zeal cheese?
t>z? Dunno fast lurks die to microed marines and medics (without vessels)and 4pool can be beaten sometimes
p>z? Dunno 9pool<7(?)forge, 9pool<3gate zeals (if protoss survives the initial rush)
In zvz sunken rush is very powerful.

On February 07 2004 15:32 8882 wrote:
Most Protoss go sth like 6(?)pylon, 7(?) forge, 2photons at it can defend 9pool with probe micro.
What can a zerg do vs terran when the rush doesnt work? It wont work most times becaus they can make bunkers and scv have 60hp (because a lot of ppl played blood bath in the days blizzard was balancing starcraft?). I make 12pool fast sunk and try to tech to lurkers but it can be defeated by terran by scv rush. If lurker rush doesnt work I dont know what to do :\ Guard rush with one gas?

On February 07 2004 21:35 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote:
8822 ur sorta wrong i seen toss stop mad early lings with a 9/10 gates, yes the lings get there first, but they dont hurt jack shit and once the zeal comes out, they micro their ass off and they can even end up ahead, at least in the short term. a 9 pool speedlings, on the other hand, is obviously stronger on BB than in 12-3 on temple. toss might even end up 3 gating and shit against that shit, probably winning in the process. phuck the fotons.

ive see a 9/10 gate hold off a 9 pool speedlings on BB and then proceed to win easily. a 4 pool you will lose more but the zerg is soo hurt you still can easily be ahead.