The following are hereby awarded a Blood Bath medal of honor for their contributions over the past year or so: exalted, SCFraser, 8882, HULKAMANIA, Teroru. These five people regularly were found making the right comments in every thread on Blood Bath. Good job, guys, and I love you.
Over the past year or so, there has been quite a lot of good said on Blood Bath. I just searched and found a buttload of it right now. I hope it's okay if I post this, as some editing and selection was involved, and I found this collection useful and hope it stirs up more interest in Blood Bath.
On April 05 2005 20:03 exalted wrote: I think this map is imbalanced for zvt (hard for the zerg, becuase it is so easy for the terran to take the middle with siege tank control and therefore prevent the Zerg from taking expos, and since there is only one gas node the Zerg can't do anything worthwhile.
On April 08 2005 11:02 FroST(TE) wrote: im pretty sure any 12 pool 11 hatch build will get raped by the popular 6rax blood bath build
On April 08 2005 11:32 KillerPenguin wrote: Its extremely imbalanced in t's favor imo. If t is smart he will rax first and bunker so u can't do anything rushing. Then he'll bunker choke with rine support so u still can't do anything. Then he'll get tanks and push u to death. With such close positions the great turtle terran defence becomes a great defence and offence. Yes you can siege the mins, no adding a geyser won't help.
On April 08 2005 13:24 logitech wrote: heh, BB is indeed kinda inbalanced, and its sort of like this: P > T (if P dual gates + cannon rush) T > Z (if T rax early) Z > P (if Z pool early)
On December 22 2004 17:25 ProudCappi wrote: What should I do vs. fast zealots? Should a build a rax at 8? Should I build a bunker?
On December 22 2004 17:34 SCFraser wrote: just bunker right below Cc, and ya 8 rax, 9 depot then go double rax to mmf or tech to vult and rape ^^ no room to squish = toss dead. just survive the fast zeal.
On December 22 2004 17:39 ZZZnachor wrote: If u bunker below cc and try to tech u will loose to zealot/cannon.
He's right for the most part, bunker by cc is not as safe but slightly better, I think just scout early, if he say 8/9/10 or 8/8/9 then you should just play defensively until you can tech and then win. Early game is the only time he can really kill you, once you get say like siege tank, you basically have entire map control XD
Do not play zvt on bloodbath
On December 23 2004 15:47 SCFraser wrote: ya if you scout zeal cannon u have to 2 racks, but id still bunk by cc to defend against the 1st zeal, not have to take scvs off mins to defend. and if u try to zeal/cannon vs 2 racks ill rape u with rine/scv. Try me ^^
whats the standard b/o for zeal cannon ive never done it.. must be pylon, gate forge pylon cannon while pumping zeals?
ur gonna end up with 2/3 zeal vs 5 rine and 10 scv, so.. ur not gonna get a cannon in.
On December 22 2004 18:30 8882 wrote: make a sort of wallin with depot and two barracks (if you consider going bio, which isnt that stupid) then you can lift the barracks and place a bunker (dont forget marine range if you are teching to tank fast) generally you can make that broken wallin, which helps you to defend vs zealot+cannon cheese
generally you can either go 8depot 9rax 10rax or 8rax 9depot 11rax academy when you have around 10marines (no bunkers), gas when you have around 12 2medics, slowly stim (or range if he is going mass goons), firebats if needed 3rax (you may skip) factory
usually you dont need a bunker, however it may be useful
going 1barack->fact probably cant be done without some sort of wall (you can micro 2racks marines vs 2 gate zeals for some time, but not 1rax vs 2gate)+bunker (range? if he isnt stupid he will make goon range, so you need marine range and it means that you should have gone bio anyway)
On December 23 2004 15:32 Beast_Bg wrote: 8 rax 9 supply You dont need a bunker if you micro perfectly.Carefully form a line with scvs and attack if he tries to make cannons.If he doesnt tech to stim and medics ,but not too soon.You gotta have like 15 marines or so.Well, I suppose a very well timed marine/scv rush will be best.
On December 23 2004 15:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: 8 rax, supply at 9 blablabla.
I usually try to "Wall off" my mineral line with the rax and suppy depot so my marines pop out on the inside with the scv's. Of course there's a big enough hole for the rines to get out and the zeals to get out. Usually this is enough since it forces the zealots to figth inside a field of scv's under marine fire and that doesn't work to well. If you micro a bit the zealots die. If he tries to cannon you collect all scv's, lift rax and kill it. If he doesn't mass marines from 2 barracks for a while and continue to mass as many scv's as possible. Then before he can't get goons take everything and use your scv's (your going to have a bundle) to kill him. If he tries to cannon up to prevent this then don't attack, instead stop scv production, get gas and bunker up untill you have siege tank. Your siege tank plus the biomech (you allready have rines so only add medics) will kill him since there's no room to really do anything.
While on the topic: Is there any way to really win vs toss when your zerg? I tried 5 pool and that didn't help. I haven't tried 4 pool, it migth be fast enough but on the other hand they see it coming from miles away. I can win vs idiot tosses who goes fast forge because then I just get another hatch and power like crazy untill I have lurkers. (Still pool before the hatch tho.)
On December 23 2004 17:42 8882 wrote: zvp you can go fast hydra speed and micro the shit out of him
I used to go 6pool-ling harass, sunken, hydra den, fast speed if he went cannons just power a bit and make range, kill what you can and power more, maybe tech to lurkers
generally some sort of 9pool->sunk->hydra harass is good too if he goes cannons you should be happy, hydras with range upgrade work good against them
the only problem is a smart toss which expects your bo and makes some sort of zeal->cannon->fast HT/reaver, because it is very hard to dodge storms
you need to harass well with lings/hydras
On December 24 2004 00:12 HULKAMANIA wrote: OK, ladies. No offense, but I don't exactly see a wellspring of useful information pouring out in your replies. I take it most of you don't play Bloodbath very seriously. Personally, I have played more Bloodbath in my Starcraft career than any other map. It was my first love - much like Vanilla SC which I also play almost exclusively.
You may have an issue with a Vanilla player dishing out advice on a BroodWar strategy forum, but let me let you in on a little secret about the Bath, the early game is exactly the same for both the original and the expansion. Early game on Bloodbath involves minimal tech unless you happen to find yourself in a TvT. But if at any point you feel the additional units of BW would nullify the effectiveness of these strategys, feel free to discard them - or come back to Vanilla and tell them Hulk sent you.
The matchups you're all discussing do happen to be the stickiest ones, too. So I'll get down to brass tacks here and share some successful gems of strategy for each one.
The golden rule of Bloodbath is that you can't cheat. You can't go early expo, you can't go early tech, you can't even attempt to cheese your way into a win against a competent player. You have to play heads-up and execute airtight micro and you have to earn your tech. You also have to know exactly what your opponent is doing, but this is Bloodbath after all - recon isn't hard.
TvP
The matchup that spawned this thread was TvP @ BB so I'll start there. My TvR and TvP builds are identical, so there is no issue there.
9 - Rax 9 - Depot 10 - Rax
Build tightly enough that your buildings provide cover against zealots, but do not build so tightly that you have a hard time mobilizing against your opponent when the time comes for an attack. Most importantly do not expose any supply depots. Make sure you can cover them from harassment be it of the ling or zeal variety.
The point of this 9 rax build is to be strong enough economically to allow you to keep up with a protoss player (admittedly you'll be slightly behind but the center-advantage of Terran on BB will make up for it), and to simultaneously enable you to punish the protoss if he gets too greedy with your 2 available raxes. Obviously timing and recon are important. Just remember you're protecting your passage to mid-game where the scales will tip back in your favor while remaining powerful enough to pose a threat to him early-game. You have to keep him on a tight leash and then choke him to death when the time comes.
The fact of the matter is that, all things being equal, a 1-base Terran with a strong enough economy who has earned his tech will generally be in a position to wail on a 1-base Protoss in a similar stage of economic and technological development. The Terran can hold the center of the map like a pitbull. The general thrust of your Terran vs. Protoss early game should be to put you in a position whereby you can make the above scenario happen. To do this you must be ready to counter any schemes that bastard protoss has cooked up early game. Generally, you will see a toss assume 3 dispositions:
Hardcore Zealot Harassment
This is simply a 2 gate/3 gate zeal pump. A good toss will try to stay in your base as long as possible and pound on you until you're so turtled up your scvs have to pass a good four or five bunkers on their way back to the command center. At this point his ranged goons will have arrived and you'll have absolutely no place to put your fac. His dragoons will rape you all to hell, you'll type "lol this map sux," and then exit the game. We've all been there. It's a sad saga.
In order to counter a 2 gate zeals with 2 rax rines (going more than 2 raxes is asking to get raped imho but I don't have time to explain here), you have to take your choke with a bunker. I repeat: take your choke with the bunker. You cannot be cost effective with a bunker in preventing harassment unless it is at your choke. You'll have to take your choke pretty early in the matchup, right as your 2 rax has kicked into gear and before his zeals start rolling out full-steam. From here you are on your way to being able to dominate the center. Pump rines as needed, keep your recon up, prioritize scv production, and prepare rumble into the center when your factory tech kicks in.
Things to watch for:
1) A Protoss who drops everything and starts teching as soon as you take your choke. The counter to this is simple. Prioritize marine production and go rail on him with scv/rine.
2) A Protoss who expands immediately. Counter this the same way. Keep your rine pump going full-tilt and go level his main for him. He will had to skimp on zeals to expo this early.
In Summary:
1) Prevent harassment by holding your choke. 2) Take the necessary steps to usurp the center. 3) Finish the Toss.
The Cannon Rush
The Cannon Rush comes in two varieties - retarded and less retarded. The retarded cannon rusher will be forge only, dispatch him at your leisure. The less retarded cannon rusher will hit you very early with zeals and a cannon attempt - usually aimed at your geyser. Chances are if the toss gets to your gas with a cannon, you're too far up Shit Creek to paddle your way back into the game.
However, both cannon rushes die easily enough if you nip them in the bud. The counter is much the same as outlined above. If you scout a forge, wait for that critical moment when your rines (and a couple of scvs) will be able to steamroll anything he can field and take your choke with a bunker. A 1 gate 1 forge build or a 2 gate build burdened by a forge can't break you if you take your choke properly. From here the game is yours.
Things to watch for:
1) A 1 gate cannon rusher who is teching hard behind his attack. This could spell early goon or fast reaver - both of which are trouble in the right hands. The counter should be familiar by now. Beef up your rine force and go ream his base. The only difference is he may have cannoned himself up at home to try to survive this and come out ahead in the tech-race. However, if your harassment is strong enough, he will have to spend too much on cannons to succeed with this strat. Use offensive bunkers to your advantage. If you wound and fluster him (or even kill him if he comitted too many sins), you're back in prime rape position come mid game.
2) A toss who cannons his own choke and then powers and techs like a madman. He shouldn't be too much of a threat. Simply power and tech in a similarly madmanesque fashion. You can send a rax over to scout, too, and then counter him accordingly.
Summary: 1) Keep your eyes peeled for it early game. 2) Stop it before it starts. 3) Take the necessary steps to control the map. 4) Proceed to rape.
Quick Tech
The last thing you want is a well powered, well teched Protoss running around on Bloodbath with you. There are a million and one things he can do to keep you out of the center while he secures an expo or two. But don't worry; while failing to counter this build produces the most theatrically cataclysmic results, it's the easiest to counter.
The 9 rax build I proffered here was created with quick techers in mind. They break the golden rule of bloodbath and it is your job to punish them. You'll find yourself very much in a situation like you were gas-capped on Temple and you're forced to counter w/ rine scv except there is no ramp for the Protoss to hide atop.
All you have to do is attack him at the proper time with about 6-8 rines and as many scvs as you want to throw at him. If you don't do anything stupid, his build leaves him at your mercy.
So that's a basic overview of TvP on Bloodbath. I have just realized how long this post will be if I type out my thoughts on ZvP or ZvT, but, don't worry, I can hint at them in a few words.
- Go 9 pool 9 gas. - Harass like your life depends on it. - Make sure if the match enters mid-game, you're at a substantial advantage.
So questions? Comments? I'll answer any BB quandaries you have here or in PM. Just make sure they doesn't involve sairs or medics or dts or other instruments of post-classical warfare.
On February 06 2004 19:03 Teroru wrote: i love the map.
it will be one of the most intense games you play if the 2 players are good. It normally involves non-stop harassing going on simultaneously at both bases.
Any1 who plays the game with their mind instead of by memorizing b/o's and watching replays should be able to as easily adapt on Blood bath as any other map imo.
whenever i see a public 1:1 bloodbath, i join it. I hardly ever find much competition on the map, but its still fun.
It is the real 'micro wars' map. It includes mutli-tasking, and lets you practice the most used micro. (Lings, Rines, Zeals)
On February 07 2004 01:40 SoL.Origin wrote: terran would rape zerg bad because zerg has to go fast lurker and terran will have medics very fast and attack before zerg even starts making lurkers, so zerg will have to make lings and burrow or make lots of sunkens so either way zerg is fucked cuz terran goes fast vessel and holds zerg until he has vessel/tank and its gg, i think its very simple, zerg with 1 gas in zvt is fucked
On February 07 2004 04:34 8882 wrote: Blood bath is a very good map. p=t? Dunno what about the photon+zeal cheese? t>z? Dunno fast lurks die to microed marines and medics (without vessels)and 4pool can be beaten sometimes p>z? Dunno 9pool<7(?)forge, 9pool<3gate zeals (if protoss survives the initial rush) In zvz sunken rush is very powerful.
On February 07 2004 15:32 8882 wrote: Most Protoss go sth like 6(?)pylon, 7(?) forge, 2photons at it can defend 9pool with probe micro. What can a zerg do vs terran when the rush doesnt work? It wont work most times becaus they can make bunkers and scv have 60hp (because a lot of ppl played blood bath in the days blizzard was balancing starcraft?). I make 12pool fast sunk and try to tech to lurkers but it can be defeated by terran by scv rush. If lurker rush doesnt work I dont know what to do :\ Guard rush with one gas?
On February 07 2004 21:35 STIMEY d okgm fish wrote: 8822 ur sorta wrong i seen toss stop mad early lings with a 9/10 gates, yes the lings get there first, but they dont hurt jack shit and once the zeal comes out, they micro their ass off and they can even end up ahead, at least in the short term. a 9 pool speedlings, on the other hand, is obviously stronger on BB than in 12-3 on temple. toss might even end up 3 gating and shit against that shit, probably winning in the process. phuck the fotons.
ive see a 9/10 gate hold off a 9 pool speedlings on BB and then proceed to win easily. a 4 pool you will lose more but the zerg is soo hurt you still can easily be ahead.
Poll: What's most true about the balance of Blood Bath? (Vote): T > Z (Vote): Z > T (Vote): T > P (Vote): P > T (Vote): Z > P (Vote): P > Z (Vote): Perfect balance
On a serious note, I think that _SOME_ steps that could make Bloodbath SLIGHTLY more playable in that Z doesn't get assraped would be more appropriately placed minerals at the "expo" (lol) near the chokepoint along with a 2nd gas node - again, most TvZ games won't even last that long and a Zerg sure as hell cannot do nice econ builds on LT as 3 hatch before lair, etc - I think something like, 12 pool, 12 hatch on that choke, try to force Terran to bunker, go 2 hatch lurker and try to go for the win would be their only option.
Besides that, there is not much to do with this map, becuase Zerg always has problems with small maps and no "easy" expansion.
Hello i\'ve been reading this site for a while just never had to put my 2 cents on anything so i never deemed it neccisary to make an account.I\'ve also been playing Bloodbath for like 6 years, and I know this map better than most, hell i don\'t even lose on it unless I'm playing someone else who knows the map as well as me and has been playing it as long as me. When I saw this thread though, I had to say something.. 90% of the stuff you quoted is dead wrong, dead wrong. Only Hulkamania and Teroru know what they are talking about. Most everyonelse is (no offense) retards. Seeing as how I talked alot of crap and and proclaimed to be BB gosu, I\'m going to have to show you the only way to play it correctly. PM me for any replays. I have hundreds of BB replays, and I only save the good games that were somewhat close.
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
==Terran Builds:==
[1] 5 - Barracks to bunker+scv rush (not a recommended strat but it works with correct micro)
[2] 8 - Barracks 9 - Depot 10 - Bunk (near CC and covers minerals and or gas)
[4] 9 Depot (wall for 11@ bridge) 10 - Barracks 11 - Depot ( replace with academy for zergling block, but too slow to stop even a 9 pool rush)
==Zerg Builds:==
[1] 5 - Pool (never works against good players. 4 pool sucks too) build 2 drones 6/9 you should have exactly 150 and 3 larva when pool finishes.
[2] 9 - Pool (solid Build with Micro) 9 - Gas 9 - Lord Gather 100 gas for speed upgrade with 3 drones. Should be able to pull them off gas just around the time the lings come out.
[3] 9 - Lord (very risky, requires knowledge of opponents build order) 11- Hatch 10 - Pool Sunken+lings
actually, it is alot to post every kind of counter and build order and matchup specifics so I will jsut say a few basic things. Any other strats that you want specific counters to, or anything that seems imbalanced or whatever ask me about it. I don't mean to steal the thread but, think of me like this "You got some questions, and I got the answers".
When you scout Vs Random or Zerg always, always scout diagnol. you will either [a] run into his lord and see where it came from [b] see his base or [c] see his lord enter your base [d] see nothing at all and he sucks, maphacks, or isn't zerg.
If anyone ever trys any kind of worker or scv rush u can just leave usually its still under 2 minutes draw time , because scv are imbalanced under 2 minutes.
Also another way to scout is just to send you worker to the middle and just wait until his worker comes out and you can see where it came from. (shift+tab helps for this)
Build your base tighty together with 8 rax. Keep first couple marines in your scv crowd and surround any zeals that come thru. Its pretty easy actually.
Build your base tighty together with 8 rax. Keep first couple marines in your scv crowd and surround any zeals that come thru. Its pretty easy actually.
Yea hes on the right track, you can do a 1 rax bunker build and make your factories close to you bunker and micro the scv that is buzzing around from being picked off. You can micro your couple of rines and scv to fight any attacks that try to shut down your gas or whatever. or if you go 2 rax you should have enough rines alone to fight zealots. With hit and run tactics their shields peel off then he wont want to fight you at all. Not to mention you can bring your scv and push him back to bunk your front or whatever untill you get medics/bats.
On May 19 2005 10:36 MVP[eV] wrote: T > All on Bloodbath. Once you get tanks (asuming you are a decent player) its virtually impossible to lose vs toss or zerg.
On May 19 2005 10:36 MVP[eV] wrote: T > All on Bloodbath. Once you get tanks (asuming you are a decent player) its virtually impossible to lose vs toss or zerg.
you are wrong for many reasons.
What are you going to do 1 base carrier a terran on BB? Explain how toss can win vs a setup terran on BB.
On May 19 2005 11:05 MVP[eV] wrote: Explain how toss can win vs a setup terran on BB.
2 gate rush with cannon/battery support.
Blood Bath is indeed most balanced map ever, all vote for that, yippey!
2 gate offensive canon and/or battery is shitty i can stop it with a 1 rax bunk tank fast tech easy. so 2 rax with marines and scv can take it down no problem.
MVP you have to go zeo harrass, if you can't then you jsut have to keep him contained and then it gets very hard. too much to go into details but basically you have try and pick off marines without losing zealots yourself, try and keep him in his compact base without getting his bunker in the front, evenetually he will get his front and then you should be getting goons and he will have medics and stim he will try to move out before tanks maybe with spider mines. you have to put your zeals on flank mode let him chase you into a empty base. You have goons to hit his straggling units and pick off the medics while hes chasng your zeals you may lose a few zealots but you should just keep as many alive until legs kicks in. if you picked off enough units from the flanking back and forth action then you can take his force out and you should have enoguh macro to get storm and crap. This is really hard to explain here on this forum. I would have to show you a few replays.
same goes for zerg you have to try and harrass keep him in his base if he trys to move out you have to be ready to flank with lurkers and lings. and you should have slow drop also and try and drop a few lurks on his scv or whatever. again i have to show you replays. it really depends on what build order the terran is doing.
btw once you get to storm the biometal terran has to sit in his base and macro while you can expo and get obs and dropships. Remember terran can't make turrets in the middle so they own mines/tanks.
Or the terran can just slow push the amazingly massive ...10 feet... across the battlefield. The only thing that can threaten you is DTs and once you scan them they die instantly by vultures. Even if you expo, the terran can just park his ass in the middle and eliminate any expo attempts with a small force since you cannot reinforce if he has middle. You need more expos than terran to win a standard PvT and on BB thats not happening.
You may delay their push and hold them off for awhile, but you will eventually be stripped of minerals and have zero chance to expo. You dont NEED to go m&m on BB. M&M costs more than vultures anyway. 1 bunker behind rax, next to CC is good enough defense until you can get a seige tank. Once you're setup as terran its over.
2 gate -> forge and cannons beats any terran factory attempt on Blood bath. You have 2 go 2 rax. Anyone who thinks elsewise can try me and I will show you why it's impossible.
On May 19 2005 11:49 MVP[eV] wrote: Or the terran can just slow push the amazingly massive ...10 feet... across the battlefield. The only thing that can threaten you is DTs and once you scan them they die instantly by vultures. Even if you expo, the terran can just park his ass in the middle and eliminate any expo attempts with a small force since you cannot reinforce if he has middle. You need more expos than terran to win a standard PvT and on BB thats not happening.
You may delay their push and hold them off for awhile, but you will eventually be stripped of minerals and have zero chance to expo. You dont NEED to go m&m on BB. M&M costs more than vultures anyway. 1 bunker behind rax, next to CC is good enough defense until you can get a seige tank. Once you're setup as terran its over.
That's not entirely true. The correct statment is: "Once you've setup as a terran and the toss doesn't have a working expo yet it's over."
If you manage to get a 1 base advantage while your harassing the T early game and making him bottle up it's pretty easy to crusch his attempt to push. Split your army in two, one for each side that don't have main bases. Terran pushes out. Take your 3 equal sized armies (because reinforcments have built up a third one in your base) and kill all terran in middle. Move back and prepare to repeat.
Actually just gaining a tech advantage (templars vs biomech or shuttles obs against metal, or both) you can kill his push attempt the first time or two in a similar way. No turrets means mines are less effective and the small middle means bottled up terran forces that are easy to storm.
But expo first vs pure mech, tech to templars and then exp(which adds the option to harass a little longer with dt's) if he's going biomech. Which is far more dangerous to you anyway.
On May 19 2005 12:35 Resse wrote: 2 gate -> forge and cannons beats any terran factory attempt on Blood bath. You have 2 go 2 rax. Anyone who thinks elsewise can try me and I will show you why it's impossible.
you are wrong i will use 1 rax and scv and have a tank up in time with a compact base and repair.
I've won plenty of games pvt where I dont have an expo versus good players, just because you're used to lamer maps like temple where terran has a cliff and you can expand easily to tech faster doesn't mean you have to have more bases than terran to win. Toss can win with 1 base just like any race this map is pretty balanced , this game is pretty balanced. instead of massing why don't you try microing maybe you will find its not so unfair.
Usually I do an inner expo or a far mine once my probes get to like 17 I start to rally them on the side minerals to mine more. Always pumping probes and mining the sides with the overflow probes. Once I have the map control enough to expo I can transfer them. You have to earn your territory on bloodbath. note that the geysers are 10k not 5k and the side minerals are 3k not 1.5k . so its like 2 bases in 1 on the long run.
Where can I host some replays so I can show Wtf I mean its very frustrating trying to illustrate my point in words when there is so many things I am talknig about. It would be alot easier to just show him how its done.
On May 19 2005 15:34 SayTT wrote: [1] 8 -Pylon (Solid Build with Micro) 10 - Gate 12 - Gate
will die vs all zerg builds with fast pool
it gets 1 zealot out and you can use probes and zeo micro to survive , but if you read more i said that if you see fast pool you should do 1 gate and battery with an extra pylon too in case he targets that.
Yes bb is balanced, all races are equal. The only real imbalances is when you're PvT and you get bottom left and he gets bottom right. His tanks can hit half your bridge and everyone knows that you mine a little slower at bottom left.
Some old strats I used to do back in the day but now realize suck vs good players who scout and/or micro well is: 7 pool masslings offensive hatch offensive sunkens. and 2 gate offensive zeal /canon / battery vs terrans.
What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
On May 19 2005 15:34 SayTT wrote: [1] 8 -Pylon (Solid Build with Micro) 10 - Gate 12 - Gate
will die vs all zerg builds with fast pool
it gets 1 zealot out and you can use probes and zeo micro to survive , but if you read more i said that if you see fast pool you should do 1 gate and battery with an extra pylon too in case he targets that.
If you see fast pool you should go 9/10. (Which is a very good strat anyway.) Why the fuck bother with an extra pylon and a shield bat? That's 200 wasted minerals rigth there that you won't be putting on offense. 10/12 migth survive a rush but I seriously doubt it, if it does then your going to lose a shitload of probes in the procces, being almost equal with the Z anyway.
Personally I don't see how a Protoss can even secure a 2nd expo without full center control, which is not possible due to Siege Tank range being so massive - what'll happen is that the Terran can just play 2 base vs 1 and the Protoss will never be able to mine that expo becuase of Vulture harass that can keep running through the center, mining the fuck out of that place, and hitting the nexus / probes - meanwhile any Protoss forces that go through there will have to get bombed by Siege Tanks XD.
To me, Protoss's only real opportunity is to hit the Terran hard before he can control his choke, either by killing him with Zeal / Cannon or by killing him before he is secure with Zealpressure into Ranged Goons.
On May 20 2005 06:47 MVP[eV] wrote: What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
by the time your SCV get to my base I will have 1 more probe than you have SCVs plus all that extra money from my 4-6 probes mining, keep on sending your SCVs over I will win slowly. Plus if you send your SCV over that early I may just leave the game before 2 minutes is up DRAW GAME.
On May 20 2005 06:47 MVP[eV] wrote: What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
by the time your SCV get to my base I will have 1 more probe than you have SCVs plus all that extra money from my 4-6 probes mining, keep on sending your SCVs over I will win slowly. Plus if you send your SCV over that early I may just leave the game before 2 minutes is up DRAW GAME.
Its useless to argue with you. You are to stubborn to admit you are wrong. 4 scvs > 5 probes bud, plus you lose mining time trying to fend the scvs off while I have a few at home collecting without distraction. Soon as 1 scv is in danger, pull back and repair with the other scvs and repeat.
On May 19 2005 11:29 MVP[eV] wrote: You still havent told me why im wrong. I stand by my statement that Z and P are fucked once Terran is setup. Only way they have a chance is by rush.
explain me how you can let a terran setup on BB, just go zeal+cannon
to the ones saying you can defend a good microed and timed ( meaning playing any half decent toss) zeal cannon rush with 1rax bunk upload replay plz
but yeah if you get into late game PvT you are dead
BUT P owns the shit out of terran early game i mean cmon zael cannon is already pretty gay on maps like khoral of ceres just imagine how imba it is on BB !! if you get tank before cannons hit you scvs then you are playing some pretty chobo toss
On May 19 2005 09:59 BloodBath wrote: 90% of the stuff you quoted is dead wrong, dead wrong. Only Hulkamania and Teroru know what they are talking about. Most everyonelse is (no offense) retards.
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
i disagree. starcraft isn't like that. there can be some guessing involved, especially on BB. if you know someone is going to do one of these builds, you could do something not on this list that is better in many cases, so you can't say "only these builds are good." i also think some of the builds are sub-optimal, actually, although they're "close enough."
[1] 5 - Barracks to bunker+scv rush (not a recommended strat but it works with correct micro)
i doubt this is the best build to try to pull off rine/scv cheese. severely. i've beaten this off with a 6 pool plenty of times. can't remember what else (toss, terran, or a 9pool). kinda interested in how those would play out, actually. i think when someone gives up their economy like this you can almost always micro decently and end up with an even game or better. if not, you were taking too great of a risk.
[2] 8 - Barracks 9 - Depot 10 - Bunk (near CC and covers minerals and or gas)
this is the "safe" build against any pool. although it's not really important to say when to build the bunker. you build it when the rax is done. you really can scout while the rax is building to decide if you need to bunk or not.
BSB, same thing as above really in most micro cases. if you scout right, the bunker is okay except maybe against a 4 pool or a 5 pool which is fair micro anyways. 6 pool won't stop the bunk.
[4] 9 Depot (wall for 11@ bridge) 10 - Barracks 11 - Depot ( replace with academy for zergling block, but too slow to stop even a 9 pool rush)
so what are you supposed to use this against? toss, i'm assuming? why didn't you even say what these builds are supposed to be for?
[1] 5 - Pool (never works against good players. 4 pool sucks too) build 2 drones 6/9 you should have exactly 150 and 3 larva when pool finishes.
okay, why is this on the list then? 4 pool is faster than 5, and 6 pool is better than 5 too. you can go 6 pool, drone, lord, send out a drone scout when you get 100 minerals (after lord). i also suggest lord scouting diagnally to throw them off, see where early scouting comes from, etc.
[2] 9 - Pool (solid Build with Micro) 9 - Gas 9 - Lord Gather 100 gas for speed upgrade with 3 drones. Should be able to pull them off gas just around the time the lings come out.
this build is wrong. if you 9 pool 9 gas you should 8 lord. everybody knows that. 9 pool seems to be the best economy you can get while still being okay to a 4 pool (or whatever), and speed is important eh.
[3] 9 - Lord (very risky, requires knowledge of opponents build order) 11- Hatch 10 - Pool Sunken+lings
jesus how is this on your list? what exactly is this safe against? why not 12 hatch while you're at it? i'm not doubting you here but i think this is too vague. i want to know your reasoning behind this specific build. is this to beat a 9 pool, i'm assuming? how about a 9/10 gate? what about a 9 rax? those should be expected on BB, so i can only assume that this build is supposed to beat those. i don't know personally.
solid against a 6 pool? i could see a 9 gate saving a toss but 10?
[2] 8 - Pylon (AntiRush build, scouting is crucial) 9 or 10 - Gate 12 or 13 - Battery 12 or 13 - Pylon
so when do you use this build? wouldn't you rather get your 2nd gate up? why the battery? (i know this was already said)
[3] 6 - Pylon (AntiRush or tech Build) 6 - Forge 7 - Cannon 7 - Cannon *Personally i think that any forge first build order sucks and should not be used, especially vs zerg.
a good zerg will max out on 17/17 and run in with speedlings. toss or terran. anyone can respond to this build just fine. it only is even against something shitty like a 4 pool. so why is this on your list if you say it sucks?
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
(just to reiterate my point) ... that's false. some of these builds are equally "bullshit that should never work" and some builds you excluded are on equal footing with the better ones you listed here. i'm sure you're a good bloodbath player but i don't think all of your details are really perfect. you can be a winning player without having the perfect details so don't take it personally.
On May 20 2005 06:47 MVP[eV] wrote: What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
by the time your SCV get to my base I will have 1 more probe than you have SCVs plus all that extra money from my 4-6 probes mining, keep on sending your SCVs over I will win slowly. Plus if you send your SCV over that early I may just leave the game before 2 minutes is up DRAW GAME.
Its useless to argue with you. You are to stubborn to admit you are wrong. 4 scvs > 5 probes bud, plus you lose mining time trying to fend the scvs off while I have a few at home collecting without distraction. Soon as 1 scv is in danger, pull back and repair with the other scvs and repeat.
MVP why dont you try and scv rush me when im toss and see how well you do.
On May 19 2005 11:29 MVP[eV] wrote: You still havent told me why im wrong. I stand by my statement that Z and P are fucked once Terran is setup. Only way they have a chance is by rush.
explain me how you can let a terran setup on BB, just go zeal+cannon
to the ones saying you can defend a good microed and timed ( meaning playing any half decent toss) zeal cannon rush with 1rax bunk upload replay plz
read the rest of the crap i posted i explained that zeal canon isnt that strong.
On May 19 2005 09:59 BloodBath wrote: 90% of the stuff you quoted is dead wrong, dead wrong. Only Hulkamania and Teroru know what they are talking about. Most everyonelse is (no offense) retards.
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
i disagree. starcraft isn't like that. there can be some guessing involved, especially on BB. if you know someone is going to do one of these builds, you could do something not on this list that is better in many cases, so you can't say "only these builds are good." i also think some of the builds are sub-optimal, actually, although they're "close enough."
Small map , you scout you see what they are doing, not much guessing there is it?
[1] 5 - Barracks to bunker+scv rush (not a recommended strat but it works with correct micro)
i doubt this is the best build to try to pull off rine/scv cheese. severely. i've beaten this off with a 6 pool plenty of times. can't remember what else (toss, terran, or a 9pool). kinda interested in how those would play out, actually. i think when someone gives up their economy like this you can almost always micro decently and end up with an even game or better. if not, you were taking too great of a risk.
this is one of those do or die strats that forces them to pull drone micro, you will still have a decent enough economy if the bunk fails and you make a safety bunk when you realize you aren't going to kill him. but you will major disadvantage or lose if hes as good as you.
[2] 8 - Barracks 9 - Depot 10 - Bunk (near CC and covers minerals and or gas)
this is the "safe" build against any pool. although it's not really important to say when to build the bunker. you build it when the rax is done. you really can scout while the rax is building to decide if you need to bunk or not. yea, well thats when the bunk comes lol
BSB, same thing as above really in most micro cases. if you scout right, the bunker is okay except maybe against a 4 pool or a 5 pool which is fair micro anyways. 6 pool won't stop the bunk.
[4] 9 Depot (wall for 11@ bridge) 10 - Barracks 11 - Depot ( replace with academy for zergling block, but too slow to stop even a 9 pool rush)
so what are you supposed to use this against? toss, i'm assuming? why didn't you even say what these builds are supposed to be for? its a wall for 11 bridge spot vs toss of course, vs Z risky but pays off.
[1] 5 - Pool (never works against good players. 4 pool sucks too) build 2 drones 6/9 you should have exactly 150 and 3 larva when pool finishes.
okay, why is this on the list then? 4 pool is faster than 5, and 6 pool is better than 5 too. you can go 6 pool, drone, lord, send out a drone scout when you get 100 minerals (after lord). i also suggest lord scouting diagnally to throw them off, see where early scouting comes from, etc. I would say out of all the fast pool builds that 5 or 9 are the most optimal builds, the rest are just not as good.
[2] 9 - Pool (solid Build with Micro) 9 - Gas 9 - Lord Gather 100 gas for speed upgrade with 3 drones. Should be able to pull them off gas just around the time the lings come out.
this build is wrong. if you 9 pool 9 gas you should 8 lord. everybody knows that. 9 pool seems to be the best economy you can get while still being okay to a 4 pool (or whatever), and speed is important eh. I always make the drone before the lord and its fine
[3] 9 - Lord (very risky, requires knowledge of opponents build order) 11- Hatch 10 - Pool Sunken+lings
jesus how is this on your list? what exactly is this safe against? why not 12 hatch while you're at it? i'm not doubting you here but i think this is too vague. i want to know your reasoning behind this specific build. is this to beat a 9 pool, i'm assuming? how about a 9/10 gate? what about a 9 rax? those should be expected on BB, so i can only assume that this build is supposed to beat those. i don't know personally.
ok this is an old strat I used to use to beat terrans , its very similar to the zeal/canon shit. requires you to harrass and crap, but with good terran scv/rine micro you lose.
solid against a 6 pool? i could see a 9 gate saving a toss but 10?
10 works with probe micro but if you scouted dont make the second gate make a battery and a pylon seeing as how you have to pull probes to fight with zeo you wont have the money to support 2 gates.
[3] 6 - Pylon (AntiRush or tech Build) 6 - Forge 7 - Cannon 7 - Cannon *Personally i think that any forge first build order sucks and should not be used, especially vs zerg.
a good zerg will max out on 17/17 and run in with speedlings. toss or terran. anyone can respond to this build just fine. it only is even against something shitty like a 4 pool. so why is this on your list if you say it sucks?
Because you can defend a rush easy with it but it allows the oponent map control which I do not recomend. Its already hard enough trying to scout a zerg to see tech. With this build you are playing blind but you can get gas a little sooner. not a good trade if you ask me.
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
(just to reiterate my point) ... that's false. some of these builds are equally "bullshit that should never work" and some builds you excluded are on equal footing with the better ones you listed here. i'm sure you're a good bloodbath player but i don't think all of your details are really perfect. you can be a winning player without having the perfect details so don't take it personally.
ok I admit some of those strats are not very good, I was originally going to list every strat that is a viable counter to any other build but it was way too much writing so I just stopped and left some crappy strats.
On May 20 2005 09:24 exalted wrote: Personally I don't see how a Protoss can even secure a 2nd expo without full center control, which is not possible due to Siege Tank range being so massive - what'll happen is that the Terran can just play 2 base vs 1 and the Protoss will never be able to mine that expo becuase of Vulture harass that can keep running through the center, mining the fuck out of that place, and hitting the nexus / probes - meanwhile any Protoss forces that go through there will have to get bombed by Siege Tanks XD.
To me, Protoss's only real opportunity is to hit the Terran hard before he can control his choke, either by killing him with Zeal / Cannon or by killing him before he is secure with Zealpressure into Ranged Goons.
Of course they can't. You have to hit T with zealots (cannons work too). Easy as that. Then you have to force him to bottle up without losing to many zeals (I'd consider 2 to many) and then harass some with the 1 or 2 goons you have before they get range and then harass some more when they get range and then you have to own his rine/med (possibly 1 vult or tank) attack and then, finally you can expand. If it went good you migth even have templar archives (you must have legs at this point anyway.)
It's not impossible at all, but it's a straigth micro battle (also some multitasking for toss and building placement for terran) and every time you fail even a little as a toss with one thing the next get's harder and if you fail again it get's exponentially harder. Basically if he secures his chocke and has siege and you don't have some kind of other considerable advantage your fucked. The running vults thing doesn't really work since 1/3 - 2/3's of your army will be at that place anywhere and your army is bigger than his.
But yeah, BB is imbalanced in TvP, because T can lose attacks and still win but if toss fucks up once he's dead. Not to say it's unplayable because there's so many small things involved and toss can hold an advantage so if your better it will show after the first minutes of harassment and small battles and by then you have enough advantage to win. I've never really done a zealot cannon rusch since I mostly play 2on2 and I don't consider it viable in 2on2 so I don't do it because it's only a bad habit.
Anyway, this is just My 2 cent. I'm not gosu or anything but I'm still better than the vast average of BB players (much better even) so I imagine I speak somewhat from experience at least.
Also; mines rape so hard early game because often toss has no obs because he went templar archives. (Because you absolutly need legs and reaver is so far away and you need that MM counter so bad, plus that storm is nice either way because of the small middle and DT's are good harass.)
One thing to try if the T are camping middle. Send in one or two speed zeals to draw some inital mines. They will hopefully make it almost into the middle and detonate those mines. Then send in a DT and pray to god that T doesn't notice it and can scan before it get's there. Head for the largest group of units (I prefer the vults) and if your lucky one of the mines that will be everywhere blows shit up. It's a cramped place so really perfect mine placement is hard.
On May 20 2005 09:24 exalted wrote: Personally I don't see how a Protoss can even secure a 2nd expo without full center control, which is not possible due to Siege Tank range being so massive - what'll happen is that the Terran can just play 2 base vs 1 and the Protoss will never be able to mine that expo becuase of Vulture harass that can keep running through the center, mining the fuck out of that place, and hitting the nexus / probes - meanwhile any Protoss forces that go through there will have to get bombed by Siege Tanks XD.
To me, Protoss's only real opportunity is to hit the Terran hard before he can control his choke, either by killing him with Zeal / Cannon or by killing him before he is secure with Zealpressure into Ranged Goons.
Of course they can't. You have to hit T with zealots (cannons work too). Easy as that. Then you have to force him to bottle up without losing to many zeals (I'd consider 2 to many) and then harass some with the 1 or 2 goons you have before they get range and then harass some more when they get range and then you have to own his rine/med (possibly 1 vult or tank) attack and then, finally you can expand. If it went good you migth even have templar archives (you must have legs at this point anyway.)
It's not impossible at all, but it's a straigth micro battle (also some multitasking for toss and building placement for terran) and every time you fail even a little as a toss with one thing the next get's harder and if you fail again it get's exponentially harder. Basically if he secures his chocke and has siege and you don't have some kind of other considerable advantage your fucked. The running vults thing doesn't really work since 1/3 - 2/3's of your army will be at that place anywhere and your army is bigger than his.
But yeah, BB is imbalanced in TvP, because T can lose attacks and still win but if toss fucks up once he's dead. Not to say it's unplayable because there's so many small things involved and toss can hold an advantage so if your better it will show after the first minutes of harassment and small battles and by then you have enough advantage to win. I've never really done a zealot cannon rusch since I mostly play 2on2 and I don't consider it viable in 2on2 so I don't do it because it's only a bad habit.
Anyway, this is just My 2 cent. I'm not gosu or anything but I'm still better than the vast average of BB players (much better even) so I imagine I speak somewhat from experience at least.
Also; mines rape so hard early game because often toss has no obs because he went templar archives. (Because you absolutly need legs and reaver is so far away and you need that MM counter so bad, plus that storm is nice either way because of the small middle and DT's are good harass.)
One thing to try if the T are camping middle. Send in one or two speed zeals to draw some inital mines. They will hopefully make it almost into the middle and detonate those mines. Then send in a DT and pray to god that T doesn't notice it and can scan before it get's there. Head for the largest group of units (I prefer the vults) and if your lucky one of the mines that will be everywhere blows shit up. It's a cramped place so really perfect mine placement is hard.
Mines are not that hard to deal with. If he went MnM before mines you are going to have a few canons/goons and if he lays mines around you can just turn his mines against his men. if he teched and went to mines you dont need archives tech yet anyways and you can get obs and shuttles first. Plus if he teched mines you arent just going to let him come out of his base and start laying mines all over. Your units will be there to stop him. Even if he does lay a few you can quickly micro a few zealots in to take a mine hit by himself.
I wouldnt say its imbalanced, I would say its alot harder to play the counter though, because you need alot of perfect micro and timing and luring etc. but isnt that what SC is all about?
If he has mines he has tanks. (Siege first, then mines, then speed, in that order.) If he has tanks your not just going to walts in and kill them, so there will be mines. Siege > cannons so that doesn't help either. T pushes out of his base, next step he secures middle, next step he clears entrance to one base, next step your fucked, so cannons aren't that much of an aid. It's imbalanced because T don't need the perfect micro that P has to have and can afford a few slipups, thus it's imbalanced. And since he should be going MMF for his first big attack + a few tanks + some scv's I'd seriously want templars because it can be pretty hard with equal micro on both sides and a good firebat ratio. Of course you can ignore templars and dt's completly (which is stupid, since you need legs and if you pressured good DT's are excellent harass against a terran with mainly MM) and go robo obs but the only thing it really buys you is some added effectivness against mines. Shuttles are only usefull if the T is stupid (no turrets so bring rines, they are pretty good anyway and you have 2 rax) and reavers become much worse once he goes mainly mech with only a few rines (or perhaps even gols) as AA.
well, Bloodbath, I am short for time right now but I promise to elaborate soon. basically everything you just said in your response to me is dead wrong.
On May 20 2005 16:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: If he has mines he has tanks. (Siege first, then mines, then speed, in that order.)
Says who?? it depends on the situation you dont always gets seige first what if he went DT?
If he has tanks your not just going to walts in and kill them, so there will be mines. Siege > cannons so that doesn't help either.
who said anything about waltzing in and killing tanks or canons would stop tanks?
T pushes out of his base, next step he secures middle, next step he clears entrance to one base, next step your fucked, so cannons aren't that much of an aid.
canons are for early game to stop MnM and later they help agaisnt vulture raids
It's imbalanced because T don't need the perfect micro that P has to have and can afford a few slipups, thus it's imbalanced.
so you are saying T can just attack move and win?
And since he should be going MMF for his first big attack + a few tanks + some scv's I'd seriously want templars because it can be pretty hard with equal micro on both sides and a good firebat ratio.
its all situational as i wrote before, if he has alot of MnM and/or went 2 rax he will get tanks slower and you should get storm first. If he went 1 rax and/or No MnM you dont need storm really and you can get straight to obs and shuttles.
Of course you can ignore templars and dt's completly (which is stupid, since you need legs and if you pressured good DT's are excellent harass against a terran with mainly MM) and go robo obs but the only thing it really buys you is some added effectivness against mines. Shuttles are only usefull if the T is stupid (no turrets so bring rines, they are pretty good anyway and you have 2 rax) and reavers become much worse once he goes mainly mech with only a few rines (or perhaps even gols) as AA.
What the fuck? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, but ill try and reply anyways. DT suck 95% of the time, he can scan you seeing how he doesnt really need to scan your base he can fly ebay into it, or try and micro an scv past your forces. Shuttles are always useful because the paths are narrow and it drops a flank attack on a tank regardless if he has 10 marines or nothing at all. Normally I only get shuttles if he teched to vulture/tank anyways, because i would rather get archives tech instead of robo tech. And who said terran Has to 2 rax vs P? Reavers vs MnM is stupid on any map, anyone with decent micro can kill a shitty reaver with a few marines.
Also BB is not balanced.
T>P T>Z P>Z
All the races are balanced, you just dont know how to play the map correctly. P greater than Z, LOL? if anything its protoss on defense mode, and its very hard to scout which makes you have to tech based upon the units you see him with. if he has a shit load of lings he probably 3 hatched and you should get a few canons and storm tech maybe +1 wep and Legs fast. I say maybe because he could also go mutas, lurkers instead of mass hydra/ling then you will need that extra gas to get the appropriate tech counter before he expands and then its all over.
I would really enjoy playing anyone who knows even a little bit about bloodbath, its so boring when I dont have anyone good to play. PM me if you want.
On May 20 2005 16:46 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: If he has mines he has tanks. (Siege first, then mines, then speed, in that order.)
Says who?? it depends on the situation you dont always gets seige first what if he went DT?
No range goons = DT = Chobo toss dead.
If he has tanks your not just going to walts in and kill them, so there will be mines. Siege > cannons so that doesn't help either.
who said anything about waltzing in and killing tanks or canons would stop tanks?
No one did. You said something about walzing in and killing MINES tho and that cannons would provide detection against them.. And I say that cannons would not be a counter to MINES because siege tanks will kill them so they can't provide the dection in lack of observers like you wrote. ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION INSTEAD OF WRITING RANDOM SHIT!
T pushes out of his base, next step he secures middle, next step he clears entrance to one base, next step your fucked, so cannons aren't that much of an aid.
canons are for early game to stop MnM and later they help agaisnt vulture raids Then what the fuck are they good for. Good toss doesn't get cannons because then he allows T a quick tech switch and then he dies, or if he's stupid enough to fucking expo before that he dies anyway.
It's imbalanced because T don't need the perfect micro that P has to have and can afford a few slipups, thus it's imbalanced.
so you are saying T can just attack move and win? I said that terran can afford a few slip ups and need not have perfect macro. When the fuck did that get equal with attack moving? Or are you micro so bad that when it's not perfect you just attack move?
And since he should be going MMF for his first big attack + a few tanks + some scv's I'd seriously want templars because it can be pretty hard with equal micro on both sides and a good firebat ratio.
its all situational as i wrote before, if he has alot of MnM and/or went 2 rax he will get tanks slower and you should get storm first. If he went 1 rax and/or No MnM you dont need storm really and you can get straight to obs and shuttles.
Of course you can ignore templars and dt's completly (which is stupid, since you need legs and if you pressured good DT's are excellent harass against a terran with mainly MM) and go robo obs but the only thing it really buys you is some added effectivness against mines. Shuttles are only usefull if the T is stupid (no turrets so bring rines, they are pretty good anyway and you have 2 rax) and reavers become much worse once he goes mainly mech with only a few rines (or perhaps even gols) as AA.
What the fuck? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, but ill try and reply anyways. DT suck 95% of the time, he can scan you seeing how he doesnt really need to scan your base he can fly ebay into it, or try and micro an scv past your forces. Shuttles are always useful because the paths are narrow and it drops a flank attack on a tank regardless if he has 10 marines or nothing at all. Normally I only get shuttles if he teched to vulture/tank anyways, because i would rather get archives tech instead of robo tech. And who said terran Has to 2 rax vs P? Reavers vs MnM is stupid on any map, anyone with decent micro can kill a shitty reaver with a few marines.
So basically you first say that I'm wrong and then say I'm rigth and then confess that you have no idea what I jus wrote? It completly clear. And no, shuttles are not allways usefull if you don't have speed (yeah, add that too your wish list and you dead so I won't have to bother) because rines with a little micro will down them before they get there and since you don't have templars you can't kill the rines. And DT's are bad? Are you on crack? They are the perfect followup too a good ranged goon harass. He's still low on MMN, can't really move them about freely and only have one scan. Fuck, getting him down to 50 scan energy and he can't move out if you have two of them. DT's work great on BB if your carefull. And I say so because bottled up terran who tries to go 1 rax will invite toss to go a standard ranged goon build wich incidently work very well against a one rax when you don't have a wall or a chocke.
Also BB is not balanced.
T>P T>Z P>Z
All the races are balanced, you just dont know how to play the map correctly. P greater than Z, LOL? if anything its protoss on defense mode, and its very hard to scout which makes you have to tech based upon the units you see him with. if he has a shit load of lings he probably 3 hatched and you should get a few canons and storm tech maybe +1 wep and Legs fast. I say maybe because he could also go mutas, lurkers instead of mass hydra/ling then you will need that extra gas to get the appropriate tech counter before he expands and then its all over.
[b]I don't know about you but I don't have a problem scouting on BB.
From your replies I think your trolling, and I won't answer you again so consider this my last post in this thread.
The only way it's balanced is the same way every imbalanced map is "balanced" at the chobo level: if you improve you can beat a worse player of the race that the map has sex with. That doesn't make the map fair, though.
Thanks for the award!!! I didn't replay for so long in this thread, because I wanted to write a long kickass post. After more playing, my strategies develpoded and style changed. Still I have one problem - lack of good opponents. I visited op bloodbath- few times, but it was always empty. That's why Ive started playing 2:2 (with my friend we only lost 2 games for like 40 tries, once to a nice strategy and second time some faggot drophacked me, I dont remember any other loss , still it was mostly vs public players who suck :/). There should be a blood bath league/tournament !
blood bath is a fantastic map most matchups are very fun to play zvz is great, because it's even harder and TvT is so strange that it is cool. I'd like to discuss TvT with you later, because I just lack good opponents and made my "standard BO"
t has slight advantage over zerg, but zerg needs GOOD BUILDING PLACEMENT and timing. playing zvt is very hard, you need to be killing terrans units all the time. I will upload a replay of the way I play zvt (unfortunately the terran could be better, I lack good opponents). generally zerg has to get a sunken to stop terrans attack without medics + perhaps more sunkens when terran will be getting medics. it is essential to stop terran from moving his units behind the minerals (I defeat most weak players this way...)
as for pvz toss is weak early game, but can survive with good timing and micro. my 5pool->fast hydra->fast speed upgrade BO can be stopped with zeal-cannon. midgame toss usually can come out and secure middle. however there is one thing toss should remember - UPGRADES. if zerg decides to go cracklings toss desperately needs them (storm is nice too). I lost a game today, because I expanded too fast and neglected the upgrades.
PvT I'm still not sure about this matchup. Mostly because I can't get good opponents. My friend belives that 2gate+cannon rush is unstoppable, but terran can make a wall at choke with barracks+marines. Terran has to go 2barracks. Fast tech to factory is impossible, because toss will make 2gate goons and win.
On May 19 2005 10:14 BloodBath wrote:
When you scout Vs Random or Zerg always, always scout diagnol. you will either [a] run into his lord and see where it came from see his base or [c] see his lord enter your base [d] see nothing at all and he sucks, maphacks, or isn't zerg.
When you are zerg you only scout with overlord. So your pool (7,8,9?) is fast. Scouting with a drone is usless, because you can just see that he is 4pooling and waste the economy. Knowing that he will attack is usless anyway. You can scout after starting the pool, in order to make a sunken. With terran you usually bunker vs random, unless you want to make the magic choke wall vs random toss (then you need to scout with 5th scv, knowing the luck) with toss scouting is usless too - you need your 9/10gates to be able to pop up a zealot and another one as soon as possible, so ALL probes are needed. You either stop the early pool, or just have a semi good defensive start vs any race (1gate vs terran is suicide).
On May 19 2005 10:36 MVP[eV] wrote: T > All on Bloodbath. Once you get tanks (asuming you are a decent player) its virtually impossible to lose vs toss or zerg.
tanks are late. zerg has a chance - he has to fight for the center with speedlings lurkers and make you lose scans, then your (early) vessel is less useful, still it is very very hard. toss has a bigger chance. by the time you have tanks toss usually has storm + DT (and probably starts the expansion).
On May 19 2005 10:36 MVP[eV] wrote: T > All on Bloodbath. Once you get tanks (asuming you are a decent player) its virtually impossible to lose vs toss or zerg.
you are wrong for many reasons.
What are you going to do 1 base carrier a terran on BB? Explain how toss can win vs a setup terran on BB.
secure center expand go either carrier or mad mass zealot+goon+ht/dt
On May 19 2005 11:49 MVP[eV] wrote: Or the terran can just slow push the amazingly massive ...10 feet... across the battlefield. The only thing that can threaten you is DTs and once you scan them they die instantly by vultures. Even if you expo, the terran can just park his ass in the middle and eliminate any expo attempts with a small force since you cannot reinforce if he has middle. You need more expos than terran to win a standard PvT and on BB thats not happening.
scans are not unlimited. he has 4 scans. he won't have vultures, because he will either have LATE vulture, or he went metal from start so he should time long time ago. if he goes late vulture you sacrifice some of your army and you have 1 expo anyway..
You may delay their push and hold them off for awhile, but you will eventually be stripped of minerals and have zero chance to expo. You dont NEED to go m&m on BB. M&M costs more than vultures anyway. 1 bunker behind rax, next to CC is good enough defense until you can get a seige tank. Once you're setup as terran its over.
I wonder how do you survive without mnms?
On May 19 2005 14:33 BloodBath wrote: Usually I do an inner expo or a far mine once my probes get to like 17 I start to rally them on the side minerals to mine more. Always pumping probes and mining the sides with the overflow probes. Once I have the map control enough to expo I can transfer them. You have to earn your territory on bloodbath. note that the geysers are 10k not 5k and the side minerals are 3k not 1.5k . so its like 2 bases in 1 on the long run.
hmm could you elaborate about the inner expo thing? I often cut off my probe production (which is a problem PvZ)
On May 20 2005 06:47 MVP[eV] wrote: What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
you don't know what you are talking about. probes have shields which regenerate FAST. zerg units regenrate slower, still zerg will have at least 2drones more at the time you find him (unless you maphack/are lucky and find him fast). still he will have fast lings and you will have 1-2marines without bunker. maybe you win vs newbs without micro... and if you leave an scv to mine, then you bring even less\
On May 20 2005 06:47 MVP[eV] wrote: What stops me from taking 6 of my first 10 scvs and owning all your probes/drones? Its so fucking easy for terran to win on BB its pathetic. I can march 4-6 scvs over there own some probes, retreat them, repair them and do it again over and over if I wanted since the bases are so close.
by the time your SCV get to my base I will have 1 more probe than you have SCVs plus all that extra money from my 4-6 probes mining, keep on sending your SCVs over I will win slowly. Plus if you send your SCV over that early I may just leave the game before 2 minutes is up DRAW GAME.
Its useless to argue with you. You are to stubborn to admit you are wrong. 4 scvs > 5 probes bud, plus you lose mining time trying to fend the scvs off while I have a few at home collecting without distraction. Soon as 1 scv is in danger, pull back and repair with the other scvs and repeat.
yup, definitely you don;t know what you are talking about. probes regenerate. and I dont think you have boxer like micro, or even micro better than mine. I think you are a theorycrafter.
On May 20 2005 12:11 labcoated wrote:
[1] 5 - Barracks to bunker+scv rush (not a recommended strat but it works with correct micro)
i doubt this is the best build to try to pull off rine/scv cheese. severely. i've beaten this off with a 6 pool plenty of times. can't remember what else (toss, terran, or a 9pool). kinda interested in how those would play out, actually. i think when someone gives up their economy like this you can almost always micro decently and end up with an even game or better. if not, you were taking too great of a risk.
[2] 8 - Barracks 9 - Depot 10 - Bunk (near CC and covers minerals and or gas)
this is the "safe" build against any pool. although it's not really important to say when to build the bunker. you build it when the rax is done. you really can scout while the rax is building to decide if you need to bunk or not.
BSB, same thing as above really in most micro cases. if you scout right, the bunker is okay except maybe against a 4 pool or a 5 pool which is fair micro anyways. 6 pool won't stop the bunk.
[4] 9 Depot (wall for 11@ bridge) 10 - Barracks 11 - Depot ( replace with academy for zergling block, but too slow to stop even a 9 pool rush)
so what are you supposed to use this against? toss, i'm assuming? why didn't you even say what these builds are supposed to be for?
I mostly agree with you.
[1] 5 - Pool (never works against good players. 4 pool sucks too) build 2 drones 6/9 you should have exactly 150 and 3 larva when pool finishes.
okay, why is this on the list then? 4 pool is faster than 5, and 6 pool is better than 5 too. you can go 6 pool, drone, lord, send out a drone scout when you get 100 minerals (after lord). i also suggest lord scouting diagnally to throw them off, see where early scouting comes from, etc. [/quote]
I think the best early pool is 7pool->overlord->fake extractor->drone you have 2larvas fast (or even 3) which is good zvz/zvp early pool sucks vs terran
[2] 9 - Pool (solid Build with Micro) 9 - Gas 9 - Lord Gather 100 gas for speed upgrade with 3 drones. Should be able to pull them off gas just around the time the lings come out.
this build is wrong. if you 9 pool 9 gas you should 8 lord. everybody knows that. 9 pool seems to be the best economy you can get while still being okay to a 4 pool (or whatever), and speed is important eh.
[3] 9 - Lord (very risky, requires knowledge of opponents build order) 11- Hatch 10 - Pool Sunken+lings
jesus how is this on your list? what exactly is this safe against? why not 12 hatch while you're at it? i'm not doubting you here but i think this is too vague. i want to know your reasoning behind this specific build. is this to beat a 9 pool, i'm assuming? how about a 9/10 gate? what about a 9 rax? those should be expected on BB, so i can only assume that this build is supposed to beat those. i don't know personally.
[3] 6 - Pylon (AntiRush or tech Build) 6 - Forge 7 - Cannon 7 - Cannon *Personally i think that any forge first build order sucks and should not be used, especially vs zerg.
a good zerg will max out on 17/17 and run in with speedlings. toss or terran. anyone can respond to this build just fine. it only is even against something shitty like a 4 pool. so why is this on your list if you say it sucks?
These are the only builds you can do on bloodbath that work. Anything else is bullshit that should never work if you played yourself and if it works its only because your opponent is worse than you.
(just to reiterate my point) ... that's false. some of these builds are equally "bullshit that should never work" and some builds you excluded are on equal footing with the better ones you listed here. i'm sure you're a good bloodbath player but i don't think all of your details are really perfect. you can be a winning player without having the perfect details so don't take it personally.
labcoated is right. BOs are not limited.
On May 20 2005 16:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: Also; mines rape so hard early game because often toss has no obs because he went templar archives. (Because you absolutly need legs and reaver is so far away and you need that MM counter so bad, plus that storm is nice either way because of the small middle and DT's are good harass.)
toss needs, legs, HT, reaver and obs to win? wtf... impossible.
One thing to try if the T are camping middle. Send in one or two speed zeals to draw some inital mines. They will hopefully make it almost into the middle and detonate those mines. Then send in a DT and pray to god that T doesn't notice it and can scan before it get's there. Head for the largest group of units (I prefer the vults) and if your lucky one of the mines that will be everywhere blows shit up. It's a cramped place so really perfect mine placement is hard.
terran CANT have mass vults early. later you just sacrifice your army and stop the push-retreat.
On May 20 2005 16:20 camooT wrote:
On May 20 2005 13:53 MVP[eV] wrote: Im at work bud, its not even 5pm eastern yet.
Also im not home to play videogames on friday nights, maybe ill be on over the weekend during the day.
MVP fighting!!!!1
he will always dodge..
On May 21 2005 21:16 ihatett wrote: Blood bath is not balanced
still it is not horribly imbalanced. and even if it is, playing it is fun.
The only way it's balanced is the same way every imbalanced map is "balanced" at the chobo level: if you improve you can beat a worse player of the race that the map has sex with. That doesn't make the map fair, though.
this applies to every map.
[b] I would gladly play vs good opponents, because well I mostly play pubs who suck. Msg me if you would like to play
I could lose all the time. I know he could have made few more scvs. My gameplay was far from perfect too.
I think many people will criticise my strats, but they don't have any balls to show their replays. Actually if you watch the replay you will know the way I play, so you have a huge advantage when challening me. But I don't care. I like playing vs good opponents.
another thing How do you TvT? I have my 'secret' bo and wouldn't like to reveal it.
I play random also and I win/lose equally with all the races. Which is why I am inclined to beleive bb is balanced. i play tvt with 9 depot 10 rax 11 gas and if he makes 2 baracks I make a bunk and slowly fill it up while im getting factory, and vults.
8882 just because you make all of your responses 2 paragraphs long doesn't mean you understand the game better.
1. You're the one theorycrafting by explaining how probe shields regen fast bla bla bla. SCVs are stronger than probes. Which means you need more probes than the terran in a worker vs worker fight. The only other way is to run around for awhile until your shields regen which in return wastes HUGE mining time. I can harass some probes, pull out...attack pylon, repeat all while I have a few scvs at home mining. If you attack me head on 6 probes vs 6 scvs you will get raped. If you pull off more than 6 you lose even more mining time.
2. Go download some micro maps (human vs human) and challange me if you want to make statements about how much better you're at micro than me. What you think of me means nothing. K?
3. Only way Z or P can beat T on BB is some kind of rush. Or that the Z or P is alot better than the T player. Thanks have a nice day.
EDIT: 8882 just noticed in your garbage you said I dodge (LOL?)because I was at work. Tell you what. Call up the owner of my company and explain to him that I need Broodwar on my pc so I can own some kids on a internet forum. Then explain to my real life friends I cant go out with them cause I have to sit home on a friday night to play a computer game.
On May 23 2005 09:11 MVP[eV] wrote: 8882 just because you make all of your responses 2 paragraphs long doesn't mean you understand the game better.
lol, where did I claim that? I prefer to make one big post, then 20 like bloodbath..
1. You're the one theorycrafting by explaining how probe shields regen fast bla bla bla. SCVs are stronger than probes. Which means you need more probes than the terran in a worker vs worker fight. The only other way is to run around for awhile until your shields regen which in return wastes HUGE mining time.
yup, with his 1 scv he will mine a lot, since 2hp of shield regenerates in around 1 second. So I will run around for 10 seconds.
I can harass some probes, pull out...attack pylon, repeat all while I have a few scvs at home mining. If you attack me head on 6 probes vs 6 scvs you will get raped. If you pull off more than 6 you lose even more mining time.
if you attack me by the time I have pylon and leave some scvs at home (few=3+?) I will have like 9-10 probes vs your pityful 6scvs.
2. Go download some micro maps (human vs human) and challange me if you want to make statements about how much better you're at micro than me. What you think of me means nothing. K?
I have like 500 microcontrol maps. And I can chellenge you. Your scvs vs my probes. And Im not saying I have better micro than you. Im saying that your way of thinking is flawed. You think that you can attack with less scvs(6?), at the time I have a pylon (so I have 9-10?) and win...
3. Only way Z or P can beat T on BB is some kind of rush. Or that the Z or P is alot better than the T player. Thanks have a nice day.
lol
EDIT: 8882 just noticed in your garbage you said I dodge (LOL?)because I was at work. Tell you what. Call up the owner of my company and explain to him that I need Broodwar on my pc so I can own some kids on a internet forum. Then explain to my real life friends I cant go out with them cause I have to sit home on a friday night to play a computer game.
yea, you have real life etc - a standard way of dodging you will never play any of us, because well you work during the weekdays and meet your real life friends at the weakends etc and when you lose you will say that your lilttle brother played for you... pathetic
you are the one challenging everyone (you challenged me too), so don't make stupid excuses.
and it's not that a challenge is some sort of test of thinking (still the newb ownage will be cool), because pen is better than a sword, but you just have some strange theories, that during the time I wait for my shields to regenerate - your single scv will mine much. or maybe you claim, that your other scvs will be mining (maybe in my base or something?)...
and if your "scv rush" is so good, please post me some replays if you cant play. I mean I have won like 3 2v2 games recently vs people double scv/drone rushing me or my ally... (still 2v2 is different)
8882 I apologize having to work interfers with me playing you at starcraft. What's your account on West? Maybe ill log on tonight and play u at w/e micro or melee. You play anything besides BB? Because im pretty sure i'd wipe the floor with you on any of the TLT maps. Give me a hollar big guy.
lol, you are the one challenging, but when someone actually agrees to play vs you, you say that you have work. it's a good way of dodging, you will never play anyone and most people will forget about the challenge, but (in short-term) some people will think that you actually might me good.
I dont play on west server, but mostly europe server. I probably wont be on today, unless we set the time. You can play me on thursday, friday and saturday. I will probably be free then.
Im pretty sure I can defeat you zvp 10:0 if I choose the map.
You play anything besides starcraft? I bet I can own you if we play domino!!! That's a good excuse, if I lose on blood bath. That's also your way of debating.
I like your attitude, it's full of hidden hatered ("you play anything besides BB?")
On May 23 2005 11:10 8882 wrote: lol, you are the one challenging, but when someone actually agrees to play vs you, you say that you have work. it's a good way of dodging, you will never play anyone and most people will forget about the challenge, but (in short-term) some people will think that you actually might me good.
I dont play on west server, but mostly europe server. I probably wont be on today, unless we set the time. You can play me on thursday, friday and saturday. I will probably be free then.
Im pretty sure I can defeat you zvp 10:0 if I choose the map.
You play anything besides starcraft? I bet I can own you if we play domino!!! That's a good excuse, if I lose on blood bath. That's also your way of debating.
I like your attitude, it's full of hidden hatered ("you play anything besides BB?")
Only person who challanged me was Bloodbath during the day when I work. I offered to play him over the weekend but he said he couldnt. Where's the "dodge" in that? Your comparison to Dominos and BB has no logic. Bloodbath is a map, dominos is a completely different game.
Ok, list 3 TLT maps and we will play a BO3 PvZ. What time will you be available Saturday. I'm sure you will 3-0 me since you have no doubt you can 10-0 me without even seeing me play once.
On May 19 2005 12:35 Resse wrote: 2 gate -> forge and cannons beats any terran factory attempt on Blood bath. You have 2 go 2 rax. Anyone who thinks elsewise can try me and I will show you why it's impossible.
you are wrong i will use 1 rax and scv and have a tank up in time with a compact base and repair.
I was away all weekend. Whats your account name and when can you be on.. I'll give you rape
On May 23 2005 11:10 8882 wrote: lol, you are the one challenging, but when someone actually agrees to play vs you, you say that you have work. it's a good way of dodging, you will never play anyone and most people will forget about the challenge, but (in short-term) some people will think that you actually might me good.
I dont play on west server, but mostly europe server. I probably wont be on today, unless we set the time. You can play me on thursday, friday and saturday. I will probably be free then.
Im pretty sure I can defeat you zvp 10:0 if I choose the map.
You play anything besides starcraft? I bet I can own you if we play domino!!! That's a good excuse, if I lose on blood bath. That's also your way of debating.
I like your attitude, it's full of hidden hatered ("you play anything besides BB?")
Only person who challanged me was Bloodbath during the day when I work. I offered to play him over the weekend but he said he couldnt. Where's the "dodge" in that? Your comparison to Dominos and BB has no logic. Bloodbath is a map, dominos is a completely different game.
Ok, list 3 TLT maps and we will play a BO3 PvZ. What time will you be available Saturday. I'm sure you will 3-0 me since you have no doubt you can 10-0 me without even seeing me play once.
why do you want me to play on TLT maps vs you, when this is a thread about blood bath (and we were discussing blood bath strategies)? so why won't we play domino?
really, I dont know what to write after reading your post...
and why will we play pvz, if you are making comments about pvt and zvt in this thread... I dont know I would really like to see your scv attack and micro pvt.
On May 23 2005 14:04 MVP[eV] wrote: You said you can own me 10:0 zvp but now you dodge? gg idiot go back to Blizzforums.
oh, yes, I can own you 10:0 zvp on the map I choose
still I would prefer to play blood bath to see your magic scv rush and: zvp, tvp, tvz
and why wont we play domino, you wanna lose pvz vs me (on the map I choose ) or play TLT maps, which dont have much to do with the discussion why are you flaming?
who cares which of you can beat eachother on a TLT map of 8882's choice or on BB? post what you think, and if you disagree, then that's that. maybe if you guys play enough we could find out which is a better player which kind of helps us decide who to believe more, but it doesn't ever prove which strategy is wrong because more than strategy can decide the outcome of a match.
i think some of the things MVP said are kind of right. toss and zerg have to try to gain an advantage before terran gets it by default. in that respect, it's kind of a "rush" game. but it depends on what you mean by rush. zerg don't have to win with zerglings vs terran, but they have to slow the terran down while they get something ready for terran's attack (i would assume speedling/lurker). terran playing safely could be very hard to beat for a zerg. the zerg must gain advantages every step of the way to keep things "even", but that doesn't mean the matchup is unfair. it is, at least though, very different.
t v p is similar, so i think what MVP was trying to get at, even if he was misunderstood, is kind of right. toss should two gate zeal and try to get photons on a terran. terran can fight with two rax and scvs. it's a fair, fun, micro game as far as i can tell. and either side can get tech, depending on who is winning the early game. toss could be bunker pushed if they fail hard enough. terran could be destroyed by goons if they don't gain enough. so if you consider killing terran with zeal/photon (with goon if it comes to that) "rush" then okay, i can see that. but if you don't consider that "rush" i can see that too. i think if you guys gave eachother the benefit of the doubt you would find you mostly agree with eachother and are just trying hard to strengthen your minor disagreements that may be more a matter of style or taste when it comes to defining certain subjective terms.
MVP you should concede that talking about your weekend friends instead of going through with a bloodbath challenge that you made looks like dodging. and 8882 said he believes he could 10-0 you on a TLT map of his choice in zvp. i don't see him backing out of that really. set it up if you guys want. i'm sure you will have time to game within a week or two, right? but you should back up your challenge and play him on Bloodbath first, since that is the whole disagreement anyways. wouldn't you like to convince him that you're right about worker rushes and terran? i think you both would like to see that, so find the time and quit bitching at eachother.
well said lobcoated, but zeo/canon rush will never work on any of us here, or at least it shouldn't. I think if you can't handle every kind of (hate to use this gay word) "cheese" rush on bb you shouldn't be talking here. Whenever I see my opponent trying something fast I know im going to win.
you could be right about that bloodbath; i am undecided on that in my own experience. i'm unsure whether zeal/photon is at least an even exchange against terran when done properly and in response to the right kind of terran. if a terran is trying to 1 rax then is it okay to zeal/photon? or is it better to just get goons quickly in that case? do you mean that a good terran knows he has to 2 rax or hold his bridge early in order to prevent the zeal/photon pressure? i can see that
i just love bloodbath and the micro based all u know.. just love to learn new faster/safer/gosuer builds and tacticks. harashment is also so nice doing correctly =)
zeal canon wont work on any terran as long as he has built a few marines and knows how to use scv to battle. range goons , speed zeals , whatever just never this strat unless you are just having fun crushing newbies
I have really huge files of First person videos of me playing on bloodbath,I have a very good game ZvT. Anyone who has aim or whatever I can send it to you, unless you know a place to host a 130k video?
Ive probably won 300 and lost 5 on bloodbath. Therefore I think I'm overqualified on speaking on this matter.
T>P/Z
Toss cant do anything, even the acclaimed two gate forge wont do shit if the terran is good, because he will bring 8-10 scvs with 6-8 marines by the time you are able to warp one cannon.
Zerg is totally helpless, EXCEPT if he decides to go 7 pool fast gas to lurker. He needs perfect micro, cant lose a single ling, and make a sunk as soon as he sees the marines/scvs/meds moving into the base. You absolutely need the sunken to cover your entire base, or your lurkers will be take too long and it'll be gg.
Basically all the terran needs to do is the standard 8 depot 9 rack and he'll be safe. Throw up another rack or two, mass scvs and marines, and move out. If you have decent micro and macro, you'll rarely ever lose.
msg me @ zaarg on West and you'll see what im talking about
taewook you are probably right T>Z=P but I still win and lose an even amount of games. and it is possible to win against decent terrans with proper harrass, build orders, and tactics.
On May 21 2005 21:16 ihatett wrote: Blood bath is not balanced
In fact, it is one of the most imbalanced maps.
The only way it's balanced is the same way every imbalanced map is "balanced" at the chobo level: if you improve you can beat a worse player of the race that the map has sex with. That doesn't make the map fair, though.
who here will participate in a BB tournament? i'll run it out of this thread. just tell me if you want in, i'll edit this post. i'll just let you guys meet up and play after i make brackets (assuming enough people want this). i'm thinking of single elim bo3.
updates:
ppl who signed up so far (post here to sign up): Bloodbath
also if you prefer bo5 we can do that. or we cou ld make it optional (bo3 default, bo5 if you both agree).
On May 25 2005 21:14 labcoated wrote: who here will participate in a BB tournament? i'll run it out of this thread. just tell me if you want in, i'll edit this post. i'll just let you guys meet up and play after i make brackets (assuming enough people want this). i'm thinking of single elim bo3.
i'll play i think op bird- used to host 2v2 BB tournies on west. We could host them on east in op bbath or west on op Bloodbath- , anyways im down. single elim bo3 sounds good
I think Bo5 is too much. We could also make this a 2v2 tourney as well. I have a Bunch of Small balanced maps we could integrate into the tourney. Desert Sunset: 2 player 64x64 island map with your expansion on your main land limited resource for very micro intensive high teching games.
Blood Bath Fixed (and Obs. version.): Fixed mineral placements for bottom left and all the 3k Chunks are better balanced so units cannot get stuck behind etc.
yes, I made the map. It doesnt work for Zerg though, so you can only play TvT PvT PvP. Msg me on AIM: spore2006 , if you want any of these maps. by default you cannot host installation on melee mode. -_-
there is like 1 or 2 buildable tiles on installation. im pretty sure its known, i think detonation x note or whatever that shitty map was called has a special buidlable tile on the main bases as well.
On May 26 2005 22:11 BloodBath wrote: there is like 1 or 2 buildable tiles on installation. im pretty sure its known, i think detonation x note or whatever that shitty map was called has a special buidlable tile on the main bases as well.
no, that was badlands
they used a buildable doodad on top of Compound to make the mains
I met a guy called cultureshock on west who says hes the best bb player ever. I never got to play him though. Maybe I can get him to post here and add fuel to the fire.
what is a good site to host a rep pack? For some reason battle reports wont let me host it. It keeps saying file not attached and the file is 297 kb which is under their 300kb limit.
On May 26 2005 22:11 BloodBath wrote: there is like 1 or 2 buildable tiles on installation. im pretty sure its known, i think detonation x note or whatever that shitty map was called has a special buidlable tile on the main bases as well.
no, that was badlands
they used a buildable doodad on top of Compound to make the mains
I know, that is the same type of tile i'm talking about.
EPT
, still it was mostly vs public players who suck :/).
I dont like your bullshit.
![[image loading]](http://img282.echo.cx/img282/5704/2desertsunset8ke.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img210.echo.cx/img210/1844/4bloodbathinstallation3rd.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img276.echo.cx/img276/7828/4bloodbathfixed1se.jpg)
