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The Tale of irninja: Walking on Water Liquid
This is a story about Michael Foster, also known as irninja in the Team Liquid community and Freelancer in his own community. To begin, we need to travel back to the year 2010 before anyone knew who or what an irninja was.
We start out with a Minecraft server hosted by yours truly for the Team Liquid community back in late 2010. The server opened officially on October 4th and Michael joined the same day. On October 5th, less than 24 hours later, he was banned for griefing (intentionally destroying the work of others). Unfortunately, due to the current state of Minecraft the moderation tools we had were sketchy at best and so we decided to unban him.
Four days later, on October 9th, he was caught griefing again. We had put him on a watch list and decided to keep an eye on him, mostly by going invisible in-game and physically watching him. It paid off. We caught him stealing from other players and destroying structures. This event was witnessed by myself and multiple other reputable players I had on my moderation team, including Puosu and Torenhire. We came to a unanimous decision in our staff channel to ban him. Not one of the 10+ moderators in the channel had a single good thing to say about him, as even when he wasn't griefing other players he was griefing the server itself with giant squares serving no purpose other than to be an eyesore for everyone else around them.
Now, our ban system worked something like this - you get caught, the moderator who caught you is responsible for explaining the situation and banning you, and afterwards you could appeal directly to me if you felt the ban was unjust. Naturally he sent me a message to appeal his ban, claiming he was nowhere near the incident in question and that two other players on the server could vouche for him.
I got in contact with both of the players he said would vouche for him, as they were still on the server playing at the time. That's when a funny thing happened... neither of them would vouche for Michael, and in fact one of them even went as far as saying he had never seen him before!
For whatever reason (perhaps because he had a good posting history on TL) I decided to give him a stern warning and a second chance to accompany it. By the end of the same day he was banned again, this time for good.
Around this time Michael purchased a website (teamlegacy.net) and started work on it, playing host to gaming communities for Starcraft II, Battlefield 3, and the upcoming Guild Wars 2.
Now, gaming communities do not just pop up overnight. Take Team Liquid, for example. What started as a small clan website a decade ago is now the premiere website for anything Starcraft, as well as hosting very sizeable communities for DOTA 2 and many other games. Unless you are an already-established community looking to create a new branch (as TL did with DOTA 2) the process of creating a gaming community is a long one.
However, there is another way to jump start your new gaming community - deception. The art of pretending you're something you're not in order to achieve a goal that you otherwise would not be able to. In this case it was pretending to be affiliated with Team Liquid.
May 6th, 2011. Michael approaches me in private and asks if I'd be willing to use my influence in the Team Liquid community to gather some high-profile members for his teamlegacy.net community. I politely declined. He then turned to asking me to promote his community directly on Team Liquid, which I also declined.
May 18th, 2011. Michael approaches me yet again with a proposition. This time he was interested in capitalizing on the Terraria community and asked me for assistance. He informed me that he had been granted permission by Team Liquid staff to host the official Team Liquid Terraria server over on his official sister site, teamlegacy.net and wanted me to join as the server administrator. Once again I declined.
These were just minor setbacks for Michael in the grand scheme of things, for he had already started work on his biggest project yet - Guild Wars 2.
Michael created the Guild Wars 2 thread on Team Liquid, which was supposed to be the go-to thread for all discussion of the game as well as the Team Liquid guild. What started off as a Team Liquid guild quickly turned into a Team Legacy guild, and all links in the thread suddenly switched over to teamlegacy.net, including the Teamspeak server.
What's more, the banner for teamlegacy.net used the Team Liquid horse logo as well as text below, branding it as an "official Team Liquid sister community". Michael also advertised himself and his guild as Team Liquid's official presence in the Guild Wars 2 community. People searching for guilds both in-game and on the forums would see Team Liquid and end up on teamlegacy.net instead.
He consistently claimed to be officially endorsed by Team Liquid all throughout the early days of Guild Wars 2, and once he was well established he started dropping the name completely. In addition to the Guild Wars 2 community, he also pretended to be affiliated with Team Liquid in order to get writing jobs in various other communities, including some owned by Curse Gaming such as arenajunkies.com and gw2guru.com.
Today, the Team Liquid community thread for Guild Wars 2 doesn't even sport the name Team Liquid. It has now become the "Team Legacy Discussion Thread".
I will admit, this really rubs me the wrong way. I managed one of the largest sub-communities on Team Liquid to date and I never once abused that for personal gain. In fact, it was much the opposite as I spent thousands of dollars on the Team Liquid community over the years. And yet here is someone that takes the priveledge of creating and nurturing a sub-community and completely exploits it for monetary gain.
But alas, this is not about me. It's about Michael, so let's move on to his next venture! On September 26th, 2011, Michael once again approached me about joining his community. This time it was in regards to Battlefield 3, in which he also created the community thread on Team Liquid for. He has a habit of creating such threads far in advance of when they are actually needed, just so he can secure the thread as his own.
He wanted me to manage his Battlefield 3 server for him. As usual, I declined. He went ahead and set it up under the name of Team Liquid and slowly but surely started changing things over to Team Legacy. In fact, when you searched for "Team Liquid" in the server browser you would find his server - but upon joining you were spammed with ads for teamlegacy.net and no mention of Team Liquid anywhere.
Around this same time he set up his own Minecraft server, since I had closed mine down. Once again he branded it as a Team Liquid server, but conveniently plastered teamlegacy.net everywhere he could. And when I say everywhere, I mean EVERYWHERE.
"We come from www.teamliquid.net, our sister site for professional Starcraft 2, and we aim to carry their vision of providing top-end competitive content into GW2."
This is his guild recruitment post on gw2fans.com. source
"Team Legacy as a whole was originally established in early August 2010 as a Team Liquid offshoot. TeamLiquid.net is the premier website for Starcraft and Starcraft 2 outside of Korea and a popular website for competitive hardcore gamers."
This is teamlegacy.net's official history information. source
Pretty much anywhere you go on the internet, if you come across Team Legacy and didn't know better you would think it was affiliated with Team Liquid in some way. After all, through the years Michael has gotten approval from multiple nameless Team Liquid staff members to affiliate himself.
So... what can we make of all this? Over the years he has claimed to be Team Liquid staff, claimed to be affiliated with Team Liquid, has used the Team Liquid banner on his own website, has claimed to be Team Liquid on various community forums across various games, and has otherwise deceived thousands of gamers into joining his community - all so he could pocket tens of thousands of dollars in ad revenue from his Amazon Affiliate account (not a penny of which actually goes into his own community, even, as they run off donations).
I am writing this post in order to expose this person for what he really is, and make a case that we do not need him in our community; nor should he be supported in others. It is a shame that he has already ingrained himself in the Curse community, but that's for them and this is for us. We have the ability to prevent further harm to our own community and as such I believe we should use it to our fullest extent.
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I'd like to corroborate and add to some of the points brought up by Serejai. There are many details and specifics in this discussion, but at the end of it all it's important to keep in mind the central concepts and the central offences. Michael Foster (aka Freelancer, irninja) is a person who, for several years now, has campaigned to create a false association with TL to benefit his personal business and gaming community.
This campaign has generally been carried out subtly - and never overtly on TL itself. Thus, there is no clear smoking gun to be found, but there is a preponderance of evidence that must be collected and considered as a whole before a clearer picture forms. I will outline some of this evidence here.
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+ Show Spoiler [A Comment on the Name] +It's unlikely an accident that the name "Team Legacy" itself serves to further the campaign of deception. Already belonging to an earlier-established FPS team ( http://teamlegacyhq.com/ ), the name simply doesn't make sense unless it was designed to be confused with Team Liquid. "Team Legacy" is a curious name when it doesn't belong to a team or a small group of players, and Foster himself has said that the entity was designed and envisioned to be a large multi-gaming community. Sharing half the name and the same acronym would be quite suspect if it were, for example, two corporations selling similar services. It's difficult to "prove" intentions, though, so these points could all be explained away were it not for the intentionally confusing way the name was used. The ambiguity present in the name and acronym are consistently used to imply connections to and conflate the two entities ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148872 ). The title of the thread was originally "Guild Wars 2: TL Guild/Discussion". Someone on TL would think 'TL' means Team Liquid. But what it really means is Team Legacy. Maybe Team Legacy is the Team Liquid GW2 guild, then? The amount of confusion just from the title is apparent.
+ Show Spoiler [False Implications] +There are numerous instances of implied Team Legacy/Team Liquid affiliation on the internet. Though some have been removed, they're still scattered everywhere, searchable by anyone interested. Here are a handful of the most blatant ones. + Show Spoiler [Main Team Legacy Website] +http://teamlegacy.net/page/history ( img: http://i.imgur.com/UIVcmrB.png ) At the time [note: 2008], both Freelancer and Lonniehaskel [sic] both played Starcraft as a guilty pleasure, and were heavily involved [sic] the popular esports community, Team Liquid. They decided that with the support of their own guilds and their Team Liquid friends, they had a solid base to found a guild for an upcoming game that Team Liquid did not yet support. After obtaining a few contacts, and proper approval, they set off to further establish their idea.
So irninja (Freelancer) and this other guy decided in 2008 to start a gaming community with their TL friends. With these two and their TL buddies, they "obtained contacts" in order to get the "proper approval". Who are these contacts? And what proper approval was obtained? There is a strong implication that TL staff somehow gave them permission to make a TL-affiliated gaming community. This is flatly false. The "heavy" involvement these two had in the Team Liquid community in 2008-2010 is also extremely unlikely. Foster joined TL in 2010, roughly a month before SC2 came out. The other guy a year later in July 2011. + Show Spoiler [Recruitment Posts] ++ Show Spoiler [TL Banner] ++ Show Spoiler [TL Community Thread] +In the TL community forum, this thread was posted asking for someone to create Team Legacy's logo. "Calling GFX Artists: The GW2 Guild needs help" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231749 "Team Legacy" Logo. aka. the Team Liquid Guild Wars 2 community guild.
Save the time and dont ask "why not use the horse logo?". Numerous reasons aside from the basic fact its basically a trademark that is already being used. We want originality. Theres no denying we consist of 100% teamliquid posters, but that doesnt mean we need to be a clone either.
Strange, given that Team Legacy has no issues using TL's banner on their site and other places ( http://i.imgur.com/HIafq9w.png ). Please do not discuss the guild itself, the nomenclature, or anything already discussed a hundred times over in the Sports and Games section, keep this to either submitting an image, or commenting on another's. Thanks for your respect.
Yes, that would be an awkward conversation indeed. + Show Spoiler [TL Posts] +-Guild Wars 2: TL Guild/Discussion http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=148872Guild Wars 2 was the main game that Team Legacy was trying to promote. All the big MMO websites were labeling it "WoWkiller, no like for real this time I promise" so it was hugely popular and very successful in drawing in big audiences. Most of their recruitment on TL came from this thread. There was some backlash about previous iterations of the OP regarding Team Liquid vs. Team Legacy, names, affiliations, and so on - so the OP exists currently in a heavily-edited state. -TL Battlefield 4 Let's Play~!! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=429539Here's the newest one that he's hoping to get more recruits from. Notice he carefully doesn't mention Team Legacy (there is some indication he's gotten in a bit of trouble for that in the past). People that play with him will be not-so-subtly influenced to register on the Team Legacy forums and join the organization itself. -Wildstar MMO http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=405589Yes, we used to be attached at the hip, but now we've become independent. -TL Minecraft PvP/Factions Server - October 11th http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269392As mentioned by Serejai.
+ Show Spoiler [Motivation] +Just as with intent, it is difficult to "prove" motivation. However, it's an important point to tackle when demonstrating offences like those outlined here. People don't go through a lot of trouble and hassle unless they are motivated. I think one of the plausible key motivators for Michael Foster is money. His interests in business and economics are certainly put to good use in managing his website and gaming community. Ever since the site has been up, there have been referral links to Amazon, and they've grown more sophisticated since then. Amazon has a referral program where users sign up for an Amazon Associate account and gain money for sales generated from their website. A special link is generated for the Associate to put on their site. It links to Amazon but with the ID of the Associate. If a sale is made, the Associate is owed a dollar amount equal to a percentage of the final sale. The connection with the Associate program, Foster, and Team Legacy is simple: more viewers = more clicks = more money. + Show Spoiler [Referral Revenue Analysis] +Just so there are no lingering questions, I thought I'd take the time to explain how the Amazon Associate program works by setting up a simple model. Many websites use a similar model to project their own income. Keep in mind that models are not a direct 1:1 correspondence with the reality of the situation. In Zynga's heyday, they modeled their products as making ~1 USD per person that used their products. This certainly doesn't mean that every single person that played some Facebook game bought into it at a dollar a piece, but it was a remarkably effective model at projecting revenue nonetheless because of the statistics at play. For referral revenue, there are a few linked concepts: 1. Eyes on your website. 2. Interest in buying goods. 3. Willingness to commit to buying goods. 4. Average price of those goods. 5. Commission that the Associate gets. All these variables are related in a fairly complex way, but we can simplify their relationship by making some abstractions. + Show Spoiler [Variables] +v = unique visitors per day x = percentage of users who click amazon referral links b = percentage of users who buy something once there p = average price of bought item c = commission the associate gets from each sale This way, the projected average money made per day is v*x*b*p*c. + Show Spoiler [Some Notes] +Most of those variables are easy to look up or estimate accurately, but 'x' is difficult to accurately determine without privileged data. Unique visitors per day 'v' can be calculated from various webmetrics. It is generally seen as Amazon's job in the referral business to convert eyes into buys so 'b' is often called the conversion rate. It is generally understood to be ~5%, although it has been demonstrated to be as low as ~1% and as high as ~15% in special cases. The commission an Associate gets per month is outlined here https://affiliate-program.amazon.com/gp/associates/join/landing/referralfees.html and is based on products shipped per month. + Show Spoiler [Team Legacy Variables based on 2011] +v = 1000 unique visitors per day (mid 2011, based on statements by Foster) x = percent of 'v' that click through to Amazon, unknown b = 5%, most common industry-accepted conversion rate p = roughly 150 USD based on the products available being advertised (computer hardware + peripherals) c = starts at 4% and rises based on v,x,b The only unknown here is 'x'. And for this simplified explanation and model, 'x' is frontloaded with some other considerations (e.g. 1 out of 4 buyers purchase more than one item from Amazon). Out of 100 PC gamers visiting a PC gaming community site, how many would be interested enough in computer hardware and peripherals to have their attention drawn to Amazon products on display? A very conservative guess might be 5/100 and a more reaching guess might be 15/100. And then this number would be increased slightly in our model to take into account those users who buy more than one item at Amazon or who are interested in above-average-price products. + Show Spoiler [x of 5%] +Going with the very conservative estimate of 5% for x, we get v*x*b = 1000 * 5% * 5% = 2.5 That means our model is projecting that we'll sell on average 2.5 items a day or 75 items a month. Based on Amazon's Associate rates, 75 items a month earns 6.5% commission on all sales. Thus 'c' = 6.5% and we have (v*x*b)*p*c = (2.5) * 150 * 6.5% = 24.38 USD per day on average of projected revenue That represents a referral revenue of 8,896.88 USD a year. + Show Spoiler [Breakdown] + This is 8.90 USD a year on average per unique visitor to the site.
This is with 99.75% of website views resulting in no transactions.
+ Show Spoiler [x of 10%] +While 5% might be exceedingly low and 15% might be exceedingly optimistic, 10% represents a middle ground where we've taken our conservative 5% estimate and modified it to take into account abstractions otherwise not present in this simplified model. v*x*b = 1000 * 10% * 5% = 5 items on average per day or 150 items a month. This puts 'c' at 7%. (v*x*b)*p*c = (5) * 150 * 7% = 52.5 USD per day of projected revenue That represents a referral revenue of 19,162.50 USD a year. + Show Spoiler [Breakdown] + This is 19.16 USD a year on average per unique visitor to the site.
This is with 99.5% of views resulting in no transactions.
The estimates of $8,900 and $20,000 annual revenue are based on information from 2011. But were I to guess Team Legacy's most successful year in terms of membership, it would have to be the 6 months before and the 6 months after the release of Guild Wars 2 - their flagship MMO as a community. Without privileged information, I can only guess at a visitors per day stat, but it would be an extremely conservative guess that 'v' doubled in 2012 in comparison to 2011 because of the hype generated by the GW2 launch. This time period easily represents Team Legacy's most accelerated period of growth so the multiplier is probably more likely between 3 and 4. + Show Spoiler [Theoretical 2012 Projection] +v = 2000 (at a guess, doubled from 2011) x = users interested enough to click through referrals, estimated at 10% b = 5%, most common industry-accepted conversion rate p = roughly 150 USD based on the products available being advertised (computer hardware + peripherals) c = starts at 4% and rises based on v,x,b v*x*b = 2000 * 10% * 5% = 10 items on average per day or 300 items a month. This puts 'c' at 7%. (v*x*b)*p*c = (10) * 150 * 7% = 105 USD per day of projected revenue That represents a referral revenue of 38,325 USD a year. + Show Spoiler [Breakdown] + This is 19.16 USD a year on average per unique visitor to the site.
This is with 99.5% of views resulting in no transactions.
+ Show Spoiler [Less Conservative Projection] +So far, I've been careful to be conservative with the numbers. My intention was to demonstrate what happens when one of them changes rather than to theorize in depth about actual revenues made by Team Legacy. I'm going to re-examine some of the variables at play by some conjecturing based on impressions of Team Legacy's membership and growth during their GW2 period. v = 3300 + Show Spoiler [...] +I'm tempted to say 5x growth because of the sheer magnitude of growth Team Legacy experienced in building up the hype pre- and post-release GW2 provided x = users interested enough to click through referrals, estimated at 10% + Show Spoiler [...] +Nothing different here based on Team Legacy membership b = 6.5% + Show Spoiler [...] +The industry-accepted number for conversion rate is ~5% across all realms. It's been documented that much higher percentages are possible. Highly successful blogs based on reviewing and recommending specific goods have gotten as high as 12-15%. The conversion rate, then, can be affected by 'priming'. The more prepared a viewer of a site is to spend money on a certain product, the more likely it is they'll buy it once linked to it.
Team Legacy, as a PC gaming community, has as its sole membership PC gamers. And as a group, Team Legacy is interested in newer, fresher games rather than older, more established games. The viewers of the site then tend to be more primed on average to buy PC gaming equipment like graphics cards and peripherals and so on than a viewer of a more "neutral" site. Thus, I've bumped the conversion rate from 5% to 6.5% to represent this theorized improved priming. p = 150 USD, same as before c = determined by Amazon's payment table, as always v*x*b = 3300 * 10% * 6.5% = 21.45 items on average per day or 643.5 items a month. This puts 'c' at 8%. (v*x*b)*p*c = (21.45) * 150 * 8% = 257.40 USD per day of projected revenue That represents an annual projected revenue of 93,951 USD. + Show Spoiler [Breakdown] + This is 28.47 USD a year on average per unique visitor to the site.
This is with 99.35% of views resulting in no transactions.
We can easily see that more users = more money, and thus monetary motivation is certainly a plausible explanation for Foster's deception. Beyond the realm of hard numbers, there are also revenue streams which are difficult to quantify. Using his website's newfound popularity and styling himself as an important PC gaming persona, Foster has gotten various positions and jobs writing articles (some of which were actually written by Team Legacy members for the benefit of other Team Legacy members). Foster also accepts donations http://teamlegacy.net/donate/ styled as paying for Team Legacy expenses.
As a final note, it's worth emphasizing that Team Legacy as an organization and as a member group has no responsibility in all this. Several years ago, no one could credibly argue that Team Legacy and Foster were separate entities in any real sense. Today, though, that isn't true. Team Legacy is a large member organization, run by a bedrock of volunteers capable of creating and managing content without need for any particular authority. If Team Legacy suffers as a result of this thread, it is only as a consequence of its unfortunate proximity to Foster.
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We received this information in advance of this post and upon reviewing it have decided to ban irninja.
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United States7481 Posts
I thought this guy was a little skeevy the first time Serejai brought him up about the minecraft stuff a long time ago, but wasn't aware of all the stuff that happened since until Def put together his post. Thanks to both of them!
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28057 Posts
Yeah, I'm glad someone like this has been revealed and taken care of.
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Lalalaland34456 Posts
I first ran across him when I was interested in GW2 and immediately felt it was all a little fishy. Interesting.
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He really sounds like an unpleasant person.
EDIT: I used to be in Team Legacy for a short while. Has anything changed between Freelancer and Team Legacy from this, or is his only repercussions on TL?
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On November 13 2013 06:42 Chairman Ray wrote: He really sounds like an unpleasant person.
EDIT: I used to be in Team Legacy for a short while. Has anything changed between Freelancer and Team Legacy from this, or is his only repercussions on TL?
He is the owner of Team Legacy so unfortunately the damage has already been done on that front.
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Glad that this is posted out in the public, this guy was unpleasant and a total hindrance to anything he was involved in that I was around for. Serejai didn't even scratch the surface of this guy's minecraft shenanigans.
Not surprised he abused everything he possibly could for his own gains. Thanks for putting this all together, guys.
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I have been lurking here for quite some time and simply had to register to post my 2 cents.
I have had the "pleasent" experience of dealing with Freelancer in an couple of ways; For years I was a long time writer on Curse's ArenaJunkies and later in charge of Curse's GuildWars2Guru PvP scene.
First of all, Freelancer is well known by pretty much every single moderator on GW2Guru. As a long time member he have been causing nothing but trouble since day one. Freelancer had a vision for his community to "conquer" gw2 and me being a super moderator I had to deal with freelancer and his crew on a daily basis. I would get hundreds of reports every month claiming the craziest things that I would simply not put much into but that I later found out to be true. At the time I couldn't simply ban him as they were not a concern for me guru/ me as a moderator, mostly being in-game exploits, ddos or impersonation etc.
Freelancer has several times been confronted with screenshots of internal google doc's. A document that featured every single member and a list of articles, posts and "daily duties". Where every single member had to "sign off" when they had gone to certain articles/links and promoted/engaged in conversation on them. There were guidelines as to what they should post, in what manner they should write it. Members were even adviced to find a name not easily recognizable as a Team Legacy member. This way he could generate massive amount of interest to his sub-par articles on ALL the platforms that he had managed to infiltrate. (I am doing my best to find the screenshot, it was HEAVILY shared in the GW2 community)
I know for a fact that this was done heavily on ArenaJunkies as at the time I still had access to AJ moderation and was able to cross-check IP adresses of these "new" accounts "loving his work" with their genuine accounts on Guru.
I had a lot more I wanted to say and a lot more drama regarding freelancer but these involve more people and I have no intend on stepping on anyone elses toes.
All in all, this guy is very dodgy and anyone who intends to get invovled with Team Legacy should think twice before doing it.
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Nicely freaking done. I'm kinda surprised it took this long to find him, but good riddance. On the bright side it confirms just how big team liquid is.
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the Dagon Knight3989 Posts
I'm very seldom happy to see someone banned; there's almost always an uncomfortable feeling that someone is being misunderstood, or could maybe do better if given a second chance.
I doubt that's the case here. Glad to see him gone.
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Is it possible to follow this up with legal actions? Is Team Liquid a registered trade mark(tried looking it up, only found a thread about barcraft)? Due to the fact that he made money with impersonating TL staff and deceived others by acting as if there'd be a connection between him and TL, I'm pretty sure that it would have been illegal in germany, don't know much about the american justice system though.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9931 Posts
thanks for the post. how disgusting
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
What a piece of shit. Thanks for the story Serejai.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
one day I hope to be as good a poster as def -
nice to see dirty liars getting owned
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as i played GW2, the teamlegacy "community guild" always seemed strange to me, it had tryouts and interviews and everything.
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I was wondering when this came out. Sweet, sweet Serejai! I remember this way back when and thought it was just going to be slid under the rug.
thanks a lot for the justice!
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Justice has been served.
The guy is a real scumbag just from reading all that.
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On November 14 2013 21:28 LaNague wrote: as i played GW2, the teamlegacy "community guild" always seemed strange to me, it had tryouts and interviews and everything.
I can tell you that for the competitive scene back in GW1 this was pretty standard procedure for the first couple years.
Overall it just makes me happy to see thorough detective work put to good use. This guy always seemed like a damn parasite trying to subtly false propaganda with his dumb little schemes. What I didn't know is that it actually made him money, which is just saddening.
Good riddance.
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Serejai thanks for posting this. Glad to see weeds like him getting found out and ripped out of our community.
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On November 13 2013 08:05 Frozire wrote:EDIT: For those interested in the "circle jerk"-picture I was referencing: http://www.mi-gaming.net/dictatorfreelancer.jpgI have been lurking here for quite some time and simply had to register to post my 2 cents. I have had the "pleasent" experience of dealing with Freelancer in an couple of ways; For years I was a long time writer on Curse's ArenaJunkies and later in charge of Curse's GuildWars2Guru PvP scene. First of all, Freelancer is well known by pretty much every single moderator on GW2Guru. As a long time member he have been causing nothing but trouble since day one. Freelancer had a vision for his community to "conquer" gw2 and me being a super moderator I had to deal with freelancer and his crew on a daily basis. I would get hundreds of reports every month claiming the craziest things that I would simply not put much into but that I later found out to be true. At the time I couldn't simply ban him as they were not a concern for me guru/ me as a moderator, mostly being in-game exploits, ddos or impersonation etc. Freelancer has several times been confronted with screenshots of internal google doc's. A document that featured every single member and a list of articles, posts and "daily duties". Where every single member had to "sign off" when they had gone to certain articles/links and promoted/engaged in conversation on them. There were guidelines as to what they should post, in what manner they should write it. Members were even adviced to find a name not easily recognizable as a Team Legacy member. This way he could generate massive amount of interest to his sub-par articles on ALL the platforms that he had managed to infiltrate. (I am doing my best to find the screenshot, it was HEAVILY shared in the GW2 community) I know for a fact that this was done heavily on ArenaJunkies as at the time I still had access to AJ moderation and was able to cross-check IP adresses of these "new" accounts "loving his work" with their genuine accounts on Guru. I had a lot more I wanted to say and a lot more drama regarding freelancer but these involve more people and I have no intend on stepping on anyone elses toes. All in all, this guy is very dodgy and anyone who intends to get invovled with Team Legacy should think twice before doing it.
I remember this clearly, i started finding all this shit after i realised how dodgy his TL GW2 thread was. All it was was a giant team legacy recruitment post as a game thread.
He did all sorts of shit within GW2, making members "spy" on others by Xferring servers and joining rival guilds, ddosing streamers, pvp commanders etc, he is a truly pathetic piece of work. That spreadsheet is the most hillarious of it all though, forcing members to promote the community through fraudulent mannerisms. His alliance of guilds actually fell apart because he was such a fraudulent little dickweed.
High five for serejai!
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Wow, well this thread is deserving of a DAYUM! Thanks for the story, glad y'all were able to nip this in the bud.
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On November 14 2013 08:03 419 wrote: one day I hope to be as good a poster as def -
nice to see dirty liars getting owned
Hard life posting between Serejai and Nazgul.
Despite all the pretense about Team Legacy being so closely associated with TL, I bet it'll be a week before any of the officers even hear about this topic.
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I thought about posting this on Reddit but then I realized I don't want to actually make a Reddit account. Ever.
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We are soulmates, you and I.
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Drama...
He's actually a nice guy. It's not like he's some malevolent shadow figure either.
I say this coming from time spent talking to him and the GW2 guild during beta on teamspeak. He also did a lot of appearances on various podcasts, predominantly Tales of Tyria which was the premier talkshow for GW2.
He put in a lot of actual work with the GW2 guild and community and if the game would have taken off/stayed alive we (TL) would have been proud to be featured as the origin of the #1 guild. Everything was handled very professionally and i believe TL members who wanted to try GW2 during beta had a positive experience with Freelancer & Co.
Fine, so the mooching was taken to far and enough is enough right, but don't make him out to be in the same league as Gus (Philippine Pro League event) and WetDream (Absolute Legends).
Edit: Just to clarify, i'm not denying that the way the guild was handled after the game failed was bad. There's a lot of truth to the saying that you don't really know someone until they fall upon hard times so you may see how they handle it. Freelancer's alleged actions and attempts to keep the community alive weren't proud moments as a community leader. I wasn't witness to that as I only played during beta.
All i'm saying - wouldn't want to find myself on a sinking ship with him but who are any of us really to judge a man in that position before we've found ourselves equally cornered? GW2 was a huge bubble that burst. Should he have just let it go along with his ambitions? Yes, but promises were made to a lot of hopeful members so instead of disbanding, my take on the situation is he scrambled for what could be salvaged.
To say that selfish gain was the motive all along is a highly problematic assessment. The TS conversations are lost in cyber space but the fifty or so episodes of Tales of Tyria are all there for anyone to listen to and judge for themselves.
He's a man who went all in on a castle in the sky, not a monster.
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On November 17 2013 11:46 Thrill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Drama...
He's actually a nice guy. It's not like he's some malevolent shadow figure either.
I say this coming from time spent talking to him and the GW2 guild during beta on teamspeak. He also did a lot of appearances on various podcasts, predominantly Tales of Tyria which was the premier talkshow for GW2.
He put in a lot of actual work with the GW2 guild and community and if the game would have taken off/stayed alive we (TL) would have been proud to be featured as the origin of the #1 guild. Everything was handled very professionally and i believe TL members who wanted to try GW2 during beta had a positive experience with Freelancer & Co.
Fine, so the mooching was taken to far and enough is enough right, but don't make him out to be in the same league as Gus (Philippine Pro League event) and WetDream (Absolute Legends).
Edit: Just to clarify, i'm not denying that the way the guild was handled after the game failed was bad. There's a lot of truth to the saying that you don't really know someone until they fall upon hard times so you may see how they handle it. Freelancer's alleged actions and attempts to keep the community alive weren't proud moments as a community leader. I wasn't witness to that as I only played during beta.
All i'm saying - wouldn't want to find myself on a sinking ship with him but who are any of us really to judge a man in that position before we've found ourselves equally cornered? GW2 was a huge bubble that burst. Should he have just let it go along with his ambitions? Yes, but promises were made to a lot of hopeful members so instead of disbanding, my take on the situation is he scrambled for what could be salvaged.
To say that selfish gain was the motive all along is a highly problematic assessment. The TS conversations are lost in cyber space but the fifty or so episodes of Tales of Tyria are all there for anyone to listen to and judge for themselves.
He's a man who went all in on a castle in the sky, not a monster. That would be undestandable if the issues with him were limited to GW2, but it's hard to excuse his actions on other games and forums because of the poor state of GW2, when they were not limited to that game or even that timeframe.
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On November 17 2013 11:46 Thrill wrote: He's actually a nice guy.
- Intentionally ruins the gameplay experience for fellow TLers in Minecraft - multiple times
- Lies to and deceives everyone he comes across, including TLers
- Steals his community's work and submits it as his own to various Curse websites
- Makes a massive profit off the work of others and still has the nerve to ask for donations from his community on top of it
- Minecraft community hates him
- TL community hates him
- Curse community hates him
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion but I, for the life of me, cannot figure out how you managed to form it.
Team Legacy is basically a cult, just like vVv is. Freelancer is no different than Lord Jerith in that everyone who's ever encountered the guy on the outside realizes how terrible of a person he is while the people on the inside think he's the second coming of Jesus as he takes advantage of them for personal gain.
It's actually quite incredible. There is a similar situation with a company called Seatribe that produces Haven & Hearth and Salem. Lots of us here on TL have played both games, and have varying opinions of them. One thing we all agree on, however, is that the developers are awful people. In fact, the developers have openly stated they believe gays and non-whites don't deserve the same rights that we do and racial slurs are accepted (and encouraged) on their official game servers. They even lost their publisher because of this.
And yet, despite that, they still have a cult following of a few thousand people who will stand up and defend anything they say. Sheep, if you will.
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Serejai doing work to remove unpleasant community members as well as protecting the TL brand.
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I be reppin' TL all the time...except now my "TL.net" tag might be misinterpreted as Team Legacy.
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On November 17 2013 11:46 Thrill wrote: Edit: Just to clarify, i'm not denying that the way the guild was handled after the game failed was bad. There's a lot of truth to the saying that you don't really know someone until they fall upon hard times so you may see how they handle it. Freelancer's alleged actions and attempts to keep the community alive weren't proud moments as a community leader. I wasn't witness to that as I only played during beta.
All i'm saying - wouldn't want to find myself on a sinking ship with him but who are any of us really to judge a man in that position before we've found ourselves equally cornered? GW2 was a huge bubble that burst. Should he have just let it go along with his ambitions? Yes, but promises were made to a lot of hopeful members so instead of disbanding, my take on the situation is he scrambled for what could be salvaged.
To say that selfish gain was the motive all along is a highly problematic assessment. The TS conversations are lost in cyber space but the fifty or so episodes of Tales of Tyria are all there for anyone to listen to and judge for themselves.
He's a man who went all in on a castle in the sky, not a monster.
What?
I think you didn't read the first two posts very carefully. Team Legacy would simply not exist right now were it not for the bulk of its early membership siphoned from Team Liquid, and 70-80% of the point of the thread is that much of this membership was gained by deceiving people to believe that Team Legacy was some official TL venture.
If you have complaints about what was written, please make them - but do not attempt to rewrite history.
/edit - I'm not even sure what things you're talking about happening. Maybe you'd like to add some more good ol' Freelancer antics to the list?
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On November 17 2013 12:52 Serejai wrote: ... racial slurs are accepted (and encouraged) on their official game servers.
This is untrue, can you link the thread where this allegedly happened (I can't seem to find it, but I remember seeing it at the time), but you are misrepresenting it completely.
EDIT: found his cap of it:
On June 21 2013 15:19 Serejai wrote: So because the forum moderators didn't ban someone for using a non politically correct insult in a non-serious way (the horror!), the developers somehow encourage racial slurs? Am I missing the obvious here?
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On November 17 2013 16:03 Rollin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2013 12:52 Serejai wrote: ... racial slurs are accepted (and encouraged) on their official game servers.
This is untrue, can you link the thread where this allegedly happened (I can't seem to find it, but I remember seeing it at the time), but you are misrepresenting it completely. EDIT: found his cap of it: So because the forum moderators didn't ban someone for using a non politically correct insult in a non-serious way (the horror!), the developers somehow encourage racial slurs? Am I missing the obvious here?
The developers went on a rant live on stream and started spewing their horrible views on gays and non-whites, and even had a thread on their forums explaining why they felt being racist and homophobic was justified. Shortly after Paradox dropped them and they deleted the thread off their forums.
That's an entire other discussion in itself, though.
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The only question I have is, why now serejai?
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Right, woulda wish you had done this earlier. Saw this coming as soon as he started getting members for gw2
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Canada10904 Posts
Super shady to appropriate TL's name in this way. Banned and about time.
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Lol man, i thought shit like this only happen in tv shows.
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Germany25639 Posts
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"Drama bomb!" I would post a gif but no.
Stuff like this reminds me of the lengths some people will go for Internet popularity. There's no way this can have been as profitable per hour worked for this guy as getting a job would have been, unless I'm massively underestimating the scale of this site. But for some people it's not about money but about building Internet social capital, so to speak.
Kind of reminds me of the massive effort people apparently put in to tricking each other on Eve.
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On November 19 2013 22:56 KadaverBB wrote: Good work TL!
WHICH TL THOUGH
oh god maybe I've been posting on Team Legacy the whole time, I thought this was team liquid but now I just don't know.
Which TL.net is the real TL.net????
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Lol, irninja finally made a reply to this on his own forums. Instead of defending a single point that myself or DefMatrixUltra brought up in this thread he chose to play the following two cards;
In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive!
The second card he chose to play was stating that "every step of the way I had permission" to tell people he was officially affiliated with Team Liquid. Once again, apparently he got this permission from someone above Nazgul.
He ends by reaffirming his beloved members that he is in the right and his ban from TL was some massive conspiracy by trolls to tarnish his good name.
This guy should be a politician.
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They did not even link to this thread in their community announcement. That's a strong indication that they're afraid of people (mostly their members) reading it. The announcement also strongly implies that this thread is an attack on Team Legacy when it's really an attack on Freelancer. Notice that no other Team Legacy members were banned from TL. If you don't have an argument, the best you can do is make your members think that some nebulous group hates them and works against them. Making the announcement the way they did and going on at length about how their members aren't sheep is setting up a giant strawman, made more effective by the fact that they didn't link the thread in question (imagine how confused you'd be reading their announcement if you hadn't heard the topic discussed before).
As far as the posted financial "records", I first have to say that anyone who reads the first two posts in this thread will no doubt be convinced that Freelancer's credibility is near nonexistent. Anyone who has doubts should read all the information available and decide for themselves whether to believe things Freelancer says. It is quite easy to edit HTML on the fly these days, not like the good ol' days where it was a pain in the ass. Also, whoever was responsible for those might want to double check the math next time (look at the average price of goods bought through the site - it's extremely low given the items that are most commonly advertised, as low as 18 USD per item...).
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Canada10904 Posts
In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm.
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On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm.
Hahaha.
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Turns out that Nazgul owns the site.
Whoops.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
I feel like I should post the PM he sent to me, but I can't be bothered.
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It's not nice to kick a man when he's down, flamewheel
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
Rather amusing
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You know what else is amusing? This line:
Then as any guild finds as they grow, we needed a dedicated forum (and not just a thread), and teamliquid would not make one. We started one on a new site. We couldn't obviously name it teamliquid.net again. (obviously?). We called it Team Legacy.
The problem? Well, Team Legacy had been around since 2004 and was up and running BEFORE the Guild Wars 2 thread was even made here on Team Liquid. How convenient!
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I think you've got a date wrong there, but Freelancer is quite the time wizard.
A lot of the things he's saying sound perfectly sensible until you look up the facts and actual series of events - and then none of it makes sense. That's probably not unintentional. How many people are going to take the time to research such things, particularly people who are used to Freelancer as an authority figure?
The community announcement Team Legacy made regarding this thread is full of holes, deflection, and propaganda. But it's obviously written for an in-house audience, and I think (unfortunately) it will serve its purpose effectively.
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On November 20 2013 18:18 DefMatrixUltra wrote: I think you've got a date wrong there, but Freelancer is quite the time wizard.
A lot of the things he's saying sound perfectly sensible until you look up the facts and actual series of events - and then none of it makes sense. That's probably not unintentional. How many people are going to take the time to research such things, particularly people who are used to Freelancer as an authority figure?
The community announcement Team Legacy made regarding this thread is full of holes, deflection, and propaganda. But it's obviously written for an in-house audience, and I think (unfortunately) it will serve its purpose effectively.
Has anybody ever considered the possibility that he actually BELIEVES the things he writes? It doesn't have to be a conscious decission, but from the way how he actually pmed every mod here, I kinda get the feeling that he may have psychological problems that make him believe that he's a good guy and that the world is just after him.
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On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm.
Can you post it or is it not possible ?
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On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm. what does "mod shop" mean?
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Lalalaland34456 Posts
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On November 20 2013 21:05 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm. what does "mod shop" mean?
It likely means he messaged every mod he could think of to try and get a different answer. I.E. you ask your dad a question and get a response of "no", so you then go ask your mom the same question in hopes of getting a different answer since hopefully your parents have not discussed said question together and may come up with different answers.
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On November 20 2013 21:20 BloodNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 21:05 Hryul wrote:On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm. what does "mod shop" mean? It likely means he messaged every mod he could think of to try and get a different answer. I.E. you ask your dad a question and get a response of "no", so you then go ask your mom the same question in hopes of getting a different answer since hopefully your parents have not discussed said question together and may come up with different answers. i figured out as much from the context. i just didn't make the connection to "shopping for mods". Which is a funny term because it implies he could buy mods ready-made.
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On November 20 2013 21:49 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 21:20 BloodNinja wrote:On November 20 2013 21:05 Hryul wrote:On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm. what does "mod shop" mean? It likely means he messaged every mod he could think of to try and get a different answer. I.E. you ask your dad a question and get a response of "no", so you then go ask your mom the same question in hopes of getting a different answer since hopefully your parents have not discussed said question together and may come up with different answers. i figured out as much from the context. i just didn't make the connection to "shopping for mods". Which is a funny term because it implies he could buy mods ready-made. Wait until the TL Store offers mass-produced models of KadaverBB for individual use.
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On November 21 2013 01:43 Archas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2013 21:49 Hryul wrote:On November 20 2013 21:20 BloodNinja wrote:On November 20 2013 21:05 Hryul wrote:On November 20 2013 13:46 Falling wrote:In regards to him being banned, he has "spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it." Apparently he has friends here at TL with even more power than Nazgul and they are working hard to revoke his ban for him. Impressive! What he really means is he tried to mod shop every moderator that posted in this thread. We pretty much all got the same pm. what does "mod shop" mean? It likely means he messaged every mod he could think of to try and get a different answer. I.E. you ask your dad a question and get a response of "no", so you then go ask your mom the same question in hopes of getting a different answer since hopefully your parents have not discussed said question together and may come up with different answers. i figured out as much from the context. i just didn't make the connection to "shopping for mods". Which is a funny term because it implies he could buy mods ready-made. Wait until the TL Store offers mass-produced models of KadaverBB for individual use. Imagine the review pictures!
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Kadaver's bought almost everything from the store. Imagine him buying himself.
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Out of all the issues that bother me with Freelancer's actions, the biggest one is claiming to have captained something with the TL community behind him. If his "TL" guild got so big that he felt it needed its own forums, well it'd be easy to ask for his own forums here - if he had any kind of repute here whatsoever. The issue is that he was as much a nobody here as those people who make accounts to beg for beta keys.
I played EVE for quite a while with a TL community "guild" (called a corporation in EVE). You know what their recruitment process was like? They looked at your TL account and posts. They tried to find reasons not to let you in (negative moderation, bad post history, obvious idiot etc.). They interviewed you about Brood War and SC2, progamers, specific tournaments, and importantly about TL itself - about its history, about the important members, about various gems and interesting events that took place here. Some people had an automatic in through vouching or through personal TL reputation.
EVE is a game that doesn't stop with the game itself, and the presence of espionage and the need for secrecy are high on the list of considerations. With the substantial credibility packed into the EVE corp, it was easy to get our own private forums which you can/can't see here. We're talking about ~10-15 active guys at a time here, not hundreds or even dozens.
Being interested in an extremely popular mega-hyped game does not make you part of a community any more than going to Belgium and eating a fucking waffle allows you to vote in the Luxembourg general election. Freelancer is an outsider to this community (and that's ignoring all the very negative shit he's done), and that's why it's such a strong offence to claim that he came from it.
-----------------------------------
I noticed there was a mention in the community announcement about the timing. They seemed confused about why this is all coming out now. No particular reasoning. There is no grand design behind it, no fashioned plot.
Someone was interested in Everquest Next and linked me to a Team Legacy recruitment thread asking basically "is this a good Team Liquid group?" It made me recall all the questionable shit posted in the GW2 thread, the sketchy website with the undeserved and totally unearned TL banner, and the general whisper of negativity surrounding many alleged actions by Freelancer himself. I did some preliminary research and sent a post off to a moderator. That was passed around a bit and out of the woodwork pops all these people saying "I remember this guy, what a [insert nice words]". This sleeping consensus was there all along, and my only regret about this process is that I didn't start it a year ago.
So why now? Because some guy found your recruitment post and confused you with Team Liquid for the thousandth time. Because you still won't stop abusing Team Liquid's name for your own benefit.
TL is not some throwaway trash forum that exists solely for you to scrape members from. It has a long history and members with very deep roots. It's held itself to a certain standard for a very long time. Along with the incredible backbone of dedicated and passionate volunteers, that standard has made TL's name mean something. Riding the coattails of that name in the deceitful way you did is despicable, and unfortunately there is no punishment worse than a ban for you here.
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Gosh, now I'm paranoid about how many secret forums there are to get access to. I should get eve : D
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Hyrule18768 Posts
There are actually 2 EVE forums, and as it stands, there are only about a dozen active TL EVE players.
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CONSPIRACY. I was denied a Minecraft forum for ~4k players but Eve gets one for every six?
Fuck you, Team Liquid. You and your power abusing moderators. I demand a refund!
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On November 22 2013 12:55 Serejai wrote: CONSPIRACY. I was denied a Minecraft forum for ~4k players but Eve gets one for every six?
Fuck you, Team Liquid. You and your power abusing moderators. I demand a refund!
Not one, two.
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Hyrule18768 Posts
On November 22 2013 12:55 Serejai wrote: CONSPIRACY. I was denied a Minecraft forum for ~4k players but Eve gets one for every six?
Fuck you, Team Liquid. You and your power abusing moderators. I demand a refund! It's a lot easier to add 12 people to some forums than 4k
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Lalalaland34456 Posts
But theirs could be public?
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Hyrule18768 Posts
Finish the blog then you can participate in other discussions
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United States40776 Posts
Back in the old days of the eve corp if you didn't know who the sexiest progamer was, how to beat a lurker with just one merine or how M2 had an odd love triangle, you weren't getting in.
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On November 22 2013 22:32 KwarK wrote: Back in the old days of the eve corp if you didn't know who the [1]sexiest progamer was, [2]how to beat a lurker with just one merine or how [3]M3 had an odd love triangle you weren't getting in.
[1] Reach hands down, for dat jaw. Nada gets close, but only shirtless (bisu would be the best son-in-law for every mother). [2] [3] I fail.
EDIT: 5 years of TL with the 2 years I spent lurking on TL because diggity couldn't shut up about it and I don't even know what's ment with M3, how bad am I?
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United States40776 Posts
You can google the words lurker and merine for that one.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On November 22 2013 23:23 KwarK wrote: You can google the words lurker and merine for that one.
I've seen the thread a couple of times
oh 3rd one is "she cheats on me OMG!"
wait thats M2
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Hyrule18768 Posts
such cheat, very triangle, wow
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On November 23 2013 00:11 tofucake wrote: such cheat, very triangle, wow
shit doge you so kawaii.
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On November 22 2013 23:23 KwarK wrote: You can google the words lurker and merine for that one.
B-but I didn't google :<. Now I did, actually sounds like a superior solution
On November 23 2013 00:08 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 23:23 KwarK wrote: You can google the words lurker and merine for that one. I've seen the thread a couple of times oh 3rd one is "she cheats on me OMG!" wait thats M2
I actually saw that one before and just didn't connect it to the issue, lol. Pretty sure that it was discussed in the ABL more than once already too and disciple is a wonderful person.
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I joined the GW2 guild in the early beta stages for a short while and I still receive his spam e-mails from Team Legacy:
"Freelancer has started a private conversation with you."
edit: On the topic of the eve corporation, I got in after being asked how many minerals a spawning pool costs.
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On November 23 2013 02:48 ain wrote: edit: On the topic of the eve corporation, I got in after being asked how many minerals a spawning pool costs.
Oh that's tricky. If you play pressure Zerg it only costs 75 minerals.
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150 minerals Vanilla 4 lyfe
I'm now relieved by the fact that I didn't bother with the teamlegacy gw2 guild, I thought something was off when there was an application process to get it.
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On November 23 2013 03:58 LSB wrote: I'm now relieved by the fact that I didn't bother with the teamlegacy gw2 guild, I thought something was off when there was an application process to get it. As was mentioned earlier this was actually usual in Guild Wars. PvP was serious business.
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I was part of team legacy for a brief period of time around the launch of gw2, and I just want to say that he did indeed leech members to his community site using the team liquid name. I've played several games with the TL community (bw,sc2,hon,dota2, eve, wow) and in all of those games the ties to team liquid were kept. But with team legacy they recruited you in and then you were part of that community. After the decline of gw2 they tried to expand their reach to other games, creating subforums for them all and what not. So to me team legacy has always been about creating their own community - not being a part of team liquid, they just use the team liquid name to gain members. Anyways, I quit associating with them long ago, some of the members are nice people of course but I never liked Freelances anyways and I consider myself apart of the Team Liquid community, I didn't want to be part of a team legacy community.
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On November 23 2013 04:01 ain wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2013 03:58 LSB wrote: I'm now relieved by the fact that I didn't bother with the teamlegacy gw2 guild, I thought something was off when there was an application process to get it. As was mentioned earlier this was actually usual in Guild Wars. PvP was serious business. That was in a game where PvP was actually relevant.
Not comparable imo.
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I think the entire point of Page 4 in this thread is that we all agree Eve sucks.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On November 23 2013 11:32 Serejai wrote: I think the entire point of Page 4 in this thread is that we all agree Eve sucks.
unless you're into the roleplay of it.
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Hyrule18768 Posts
On November 23 2013 11:32 Serejai wrote: I think the entire point of Page 4 in this thread is that we all agree Eve sucks. I think it actually just shows you're bitter
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When you wake up in the morning you have to ask yourself - who on earth would want a tofu cake?
NOBODY
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wow. this thread. publically shaming people? i thought we were better than this.
+ Show Spoiler +at least you guys only did it for a page or so before you went over to regular old shitposting
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On November 23 2013 20:22 beef42 wrote: wow. this thread. publically shaming people? i thought we were better than this.
It had nothing to do with publically shaming him, otherwise it would have been written in a very different way, this was a warning to the people out there and simply let people know why the person who found that stuff out about him knows what he knows. Otherwise there probably would have been people going "How can you know that? He totally did it for the good of TL!" and other things like that.
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United States40776 Posts
I run the tl eve corp who aggressively screened tl members trying to join and declined most without a long tl history and I am here to tell you that this
The mods told him if he was to continue maintaining a thread to recruit he'd have to accept nearly any posting member, regardless of their playing ability. is total bollocks.
Firstly, I am a tl mod who also runs a tl community in another game and I screen/test people, secondly, I'm a tl mod and I've never heard of any policy regarding tl communities having to accept everyone and thirdly, I'm a tl mod and can't think of any reason why we'd give a shit what his recruiting policies were.
It's just nonsense.
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Canada10904 Posts
On November 23 2013 20:22 beef42 wrote:wow. this thread. publically shaming people? i thought we were better than this. + Show Spoiler +at least you guys only did it for a page or so before you went over to regular old shitposting Think of it more as a Public Service Announcement. Team Legacy is intentionally causing confusion as to their connections to Team Liquid whereas TL has never been a sister site of TL (to make use of the sort of acronym vagueness that Legacy uses.)
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United States40776 Posts
On November 24 2013 03:03 PixieDust wrote: Edit. Not worth it.
No, just not true. I have literally the same policy that you claim he had which caused the split.
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On November 24 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote:No, just not true. I have literally the same policy that you claim he had which caused the split.
Very well.
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Interesting. I must admit I always thought TeamLegacy was in fact affiliated to TL but the connection always looked dim to me. I wasn't interested by it in the end and therefore didn't look further.
I'm surprised to know about it after so long if you were aware of it.
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dear sirs,
good shit.
I knew something was off when I read that initial GW2 recruitment thread but I didn't really think about: -how much attempted affiliation he had done on other sites, or his own site -how much money he probably made or still makes on this -all the attempts by him to take credit for the works of others -all the lying, oh dear god so much lying
His announcement about this thread is fucking gold.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On November 24 2013 10:42 scrubtastic wrote: dear sirs,
good shit.
I knew something was off when I read that initial GW2 recruitment thread but I didn't really think about: -how much attempted affiliation he had done on other sites, or his own site -how much money he probably made or still makes on this -all the attempts by him to take credit for the works of others -all the lying, oh dear god so much lying
His announcement about this thread is fucking gold.
could you link that thread?
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1-2 years ago with gw2 beta i remember that he "signed" a pretty well known gw1 (pvp)guild for guildwars2 under the pretense that team legacy was basically teamliquid. i was always thinking that i was just a little misinformed or didnt hear that right but i guess now it kinda makes sense pretty weird person, judging from what i read here oO
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On November 24 2013 11:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 10:42 scrubtastic wrote: dear sirs,
good shit.
I knew something was off when I read that initial GW2 recruitment thread but I didn't really think about: -how much attempted affiliation he had done on other sites, or his own site -how much money he probably made or still makes on this -all the attempts by him to take credit for the works of others -all the lying, oh dear god so much lying
His announcement about this thread is fucking gold. could you link that thread?
http://teamlegacy.net/topic/13058-ode-to-a-troll-team-legacy-official-response/
Two things: you have to register to read the actual post. Not a valuable use of your time imo. Secondly, it's not a real "thread" since it was autolocked as soon as it was posted.
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Sounds like this guy will, unfortunately, grow up into a capable politician.
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your Country52796 Posts
On November 25 2013 05:37 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2013 11:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:On November 24 2013 10:42 scrubtastic wrote: dear sirs,
good shit.
I knew something was off when I read that initial GW2 recruitment thread but I didn't really think about: -how much attempted affiliation he had done on other sites, or his own site -how much money he probably made or still makes on this -all the attempts by him to take credit for the works of others -all the lying, oh dear god so much lying
His announcement about this thread is fucking gold. could you link that thread? http://teamlegacy.net/topic/13058-ode-to-a-troll-team-legacy-official-response/Two things: you have to register to read the actual post. Not a valuable use of your time imo. Secondly, it's not a real "thread" since it was autolocked as soon as it was posted. that's ok, I will just use my teamliquidgottask8 gmail account
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can't you just c&p it, so we see the "full story" in one thread?
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Hyrule18768 Posts
Good morning Team Legacy!
High Council, and I in particular, wanted to publically cover something for the sake of our community members. Apparently we’ve seen some recent bitter apples coming from a poster or two in the Team Liquid community, where Team Legacy had its start. We had planned to simply ignore this “Serejai” troll and devote our energy to constructive pursuits, but due to the defacing of one of our recruitment threads (and a subsequent troll post deletion and troll ban by the moderator), it seems appropriate to make a statement. I'm not known for being brief, so here we go:
This "Serejai" troll is a long-time member of the Team Liquid community. This is relevant only because our original membership came from the Team Liquid community, and our early philosophy of exceptional gaming came with them. With early support from Team Liquid staff (including giving us our first private Teamspeak channels for tournament use), we were able to launch into GW2 with the focus and organization that Team Legacy quickly became known for. Though over the years we’ve become a fully independent organization, we remain incredibly grateful for that early logistical leg-up, and have never been on bad terms with Team Liquid!
That said, we have a few troll claims that should be addressed, and I’d like to handle them individually:
1. We genuinely have no idea what made Serejai decide to go full on rage troll against Michael/Freelancer. Discussion of the subject has come up without a clear motive, and the timing has the lot of us baffled. Why he or anyone else in the Team Liquid community would choose to troll a Wildstar thread has us equally confused. No, Freelancer isn't a perfect person, and these two butted heads years ago, but we have no idea why this is coming up now.
2. Yes, everything the troll is saying is distortions, or outright lies. For those interested in particular what he seems to deem a Minecraft scandal in 2010 (let’s call it “Minecraftgate,” for entertainment value), we would be happy to release this screenshot of Serejai himself declaring Freelancer blameless, and apologizing appropriately on October 10th. Hooray for internet records! Am I seriously having to type this? I need a beer.
3. No, we are not making a profit. No we have never made a profit. This seems to come up with surprising frequency, despite our open records. Our Amazon Affiliate account provides a fraction of the cost of our server upkeep (Amazon sends us the "advertising fees"), and community donations make up another notable portion of the cost (thank you, donors!), but much of the money keeping Team Legacy afloat comes out of our pockets. There is certainly nothing extra coming back to us, even on the best of months. Ask Free's wife some time, I'm sure she'd be willing to let you hear all about it. 4. No, we were not some poaching splinter group looking to start a magnificent master gaming community at the expense of Team Liquid. They gave us great support to start, many Team Liquid members founded Team Legacy for Guild Wars 2, and we've given them that much-due credit all along. We are not pretending, and have never pretended to be, Team Liquid. This was not brand-stealing, or some demented attempt to create a fake Team Liquid, that's simply where our original members started. As you can clearly see, we are our own organization, and we've never been beholden to Team Liquid for funding or recruiting. 5. SHEEP! YOU'RE ALL SHEEP! DANCE PUPPETS, DANCE! But seriously, we know (all too well) that you all are incredibly independent people, and you're not here for some Freelancer personality cult. Aside from a couple of facepalm-worthy trolls, everyone else knows it, too. Your reputation is sterling, with other communities, moderators, and developers alike aware of your pleasant no-drama demeanor, skilled gameplay, and proper respect for NDAs and the development process. Please don't be rattled by a troll, Team Legacy is and was a respected name in gaming, and you are not being blacklisted or stigmatized.
To conclude, please, do not feed the troll, whether on the Team Liquid forums, or in our recruitment posts elsewhere. We chose to address this here briefly (ha) for the sake of letting you folks know we're aware of it, and that indeed, it's just a bad troll with an apparent three-year-old grudge against Freelancer. Please feel free to contact any of us on High Council about this via PM, and we'd be happy to answer any other questions you may have to the best of our ability!
TLDR: Serejai trolling is trolling.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
interesting, but why close the thread after writing that long post?
eh, well no point asking that here.
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[...] due to the defacing of one of our recruitment threads (and a subsequent troll post deletion and troll ban by the moderator), it seems appropriate to make a statement. This makes it sound like tliquid banned serejai or tliquid is trolling tlegacy with deleting their recruitment threads.
and have never been on bad terms with Team Liquid! ecept they banned you!
I don't think he thought this one through because everyone who just glances at the case here at tl will see that tl is believing serejai more than him. And it just draws more attention to the case from the folks not associated with tl.
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I like how they choose to put Serejai in "quotes." Is he implying you don't actually exist?
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On November 26 2013 00:13 BLinD-RawR wrote: interesting, but why close the thread after writing that long post?
eh, well no point asking that here.
If people start discussing it, they might link to this thread, and people might read this thread. Even worse, people might pick up on the many inconsistencies and deflections in the post. Best to just post and lock for damage control, leaving unanswered questions lingering until they're forgotten.
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Hyrule18768 Posts
Right, forgot Freelancer's post on the subject.
I'm saddened that Nazgul (Team Liquid Staff) would not bother to look into his own history of PMs or check with the history of his own staff members/mods before taking anything to heart so quickly (i went imgur crazy for the last hour taking pics of PMs <3 ). He gave me a knee-jerk ban and while it's sort of a rite of passage to be banned on Team Liquid, I wish I had gone out in different circumstances based on truths I've spoken already with a few friends there and while surprised, they are looking into it. That said - Yes!, We absolutely were a Team Liquid guild to start (no hiding that at all), using Team Liquid teamspeak and a single forum thread. Then as any guild finds as they grow, we needed a dedicated forum (and not just a thread), and teamliquid would not make one. We started one on a new site. We couldn't obviously name it teamliquid.net again. (obviously?). We called it Team Legacy. Team Legacy grew huge, so large and bringing in so many members outside teamliquid it was anything BUT a teamliquid guild. You all know quite well our values and what we started with. It's all in our history above in the links. Basically we wanted to flip the average "idea" for a MMO guild upside-down and say "to hell with what people have done, let's do something new". Well, yes, GW2 happened. We did things differently and not everyone "liked" the different guild on the block. Our idea of mixing hardcore and casual, while recruiting "intellectuals" instead of "#1 and top players" went against the grain and we loved it. You betcha that Team Liquid posters and fans created a guild that brought in even more Team Liquid friends early on - that gave us an incredible and magical foundation to try something new. We don't ever deny that. Those same members are also the ones that held votes to start cutting off ties completely with Team Liquid, as they felt if we recruited more non-team liquid members, we would be disrespecting the Team Liquid community being that we were no longer "pure" if you will. The vote was near unanimous. We made other strong changes back in 2010 to start separating ourselves from Team Liquid (again with mod support). While in the beginning we were all Liquid-posters enjoying idra while looking forward to GW2, it became more apparent we couldn't say we were a 'sister' guild or anything like that because we were recruiting more and more people outside Team Liquid. We dropped the whole idea of being officially the "fanclub guild" of Team Liquid to try and make our own name for ourselves. A year later in GW2 we proved not only were we capable of that, but we were damn good at running our own complete show. If the above is so hard to understand, then I need not go further. The history does not stop there, but know every step of the way I had permission and transparency from far more PMs than even what Grey shared in the early beginnings of Team Legacy years ago. Our own vets here in the community are not idiots as well - we don't "pay them off" and certainly haven't developed a way of brainwashing them yet (stubborn bastards). Go ahead, hollar at them. Ask if they were "forced" to post in threads, or "change their names" when posting. You see, its very easy to take screenshots or something out of context and convince masses of sheep to hop on the bandwagon. Ask them to do their own detective work or bother to look at both sides of the story and you'd be called crazy (insert joker pic). I think they call this journalism in America... not sure. I know this is old news for our TL vets (many that are old Team Liquid posters) and they're probably giggling, but for god sakes the internet has lost its damn mind this time. I need a vacation. ________________ Update 11/23: We tried to reach out to some of the Liquid mods a second (and last) time, as we accumulated more screenshots and PMs than what we sent before, but they will not look into it. We privately livestreamed all of our financial data for the last 3 years as well. We compiled an album of images showing mod discussion, from changing our name to Team Legacy, to the conditions of promoting ourselves in affiliation with Team Liquid after our separation. Basically a line-by-line complete rebuttal with proof of everything mentioned. A lot of this stuff throws certain people under the bus, and we are confident in that being a contributing factor to why we are being ignored and squelched. We discussed in staff that their community appears to be well into the "argumentum ad populum" mentality, so it does us no good to continue pressing the matter, as they have no will to see reason or multiple views. Remember that not all of Liquid is bad, so please don't discriminate against them based on the actions of few. We have posted a thread in the private forums with all links/screens available for our own members to digest and discuss freely. Have a great Thanksgiving holiday everyone!
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
This "Serejai" person seems very dubious indeed.
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All the evidence is conveniently posted in their private forums for only members to see.
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Canada10904 Posts
In the interests of open evidence, here was something brought up by Sir Jolt http://teamlegacy.net/page/index.html/_/gw2/comic-con-guild-wars-2-demo-critique-r36
Note this is on Team Legacy. The opening quote is: The member of TL who wrote this is 'shindigs", and we thank him for providing us with this inside look. His take on the combat he experienced is definitely something to mention
It then goes on to quote shindigs report. Now you could say 'why they are simply giving credit where credit is due. shindigs is part of Team Liquid, TL is the acronym for Team Liquid, so all is above board.' Except.
This is on Team Legacy which also has the acronym of TL. And furthermore, on Legacy's forum it says we thank him for providing us for this inside look. This is true in the general sense that shindigs wrote his report and so whoever reads it is part of the collective 'us.'
But this is precisely what makes Legacy Legacy so shady in tying themselves to TL simply through vague and imprecise language. And basically conflating TL with TL... Do you know which TL acronym goes with which forum? No you don't, but it is technically true and vaguely worded to allow for fluid interpretation, but with plausible deniability.
Were it simply in one place, it could be excused, but it shows up in so many places so as to maximize confusion. (And if it truly was unintentionally misleading, it is so consistent as to beggar belief.)
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Very interesting. I was part of the TL GW2 guild in the very beginning (I thought it was something similar to TL WoW guild/TL EVE corp), but I never really got into the community or the game, for that matter, so I never got to know what went on "behind the scenes". But it sure is good to know.
As a random sidenote: my love for KwarK has not diminished over the years, even if I don't play EVE anymore.
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Lol, this guy becomes a bigger shithead every day. It's fucking incredible how brainwashed his forums are.
Yes, you're seeing this correctly. Team Legacy founders get the Team Liquid icon in all of their forum posts.
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This will likely be my only post on this thread unless something else comes up. I have talked to multiple people in this thread clarifying issues. I would just like to say that not everyone with that icon is a current member of team legacy and many have left due to various issues, some of which have been shown on this thread, some of which are others that I have pmed about and others for personal reasons. On the screenshot alone I see 2 people who left because of inactivity, one who left because he was being used by freelancer to help push his agenda and one who left with a group of people (including me) over 6 months ago due to many of the issues on this thread and others. There may be more that I am just not sure about because I haven't really been following team legacy membership since I left and I know that many people left after the group I was involved with revealed how big of a lie was actually going on. The icon was purely Freelancer's idea and the other people on that list should not be held responsible for having that icon on their name. If you want more information feel free to message me.
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On November 27 2013 01:48 NoobieOne wrote: This will likely be my only post on this thread unless something else comes up. I have talked to multiple people in this thread clarifying issues. I would just like to say that not everyone with that icon is a current member of team legacy and many have left due to various issues, some of which have been shown on this thread, some of which are others that I have pmed about and others for personal reasons. On the screenshot alone I see 2 people who left because of inactivity, one who left because he was being used by freelancer to help push his agenda and one who left with a group of people (including me) over 6 months ago due to many of the issues on this thread and others. There may be more that I am just not sure about because I haven't really been following team legacy membership since I left and I know that many people left after the group I was involved with revealed how big of a lie was actually going on. The icon was purely Freelancer's idea and the other people on that list should not be held responsible for having that icon on their name. If you want more information feel free to message me.
I don't think that anybody here would actually blame the guys with the icon just for having the icon though.
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Agreed. Ignore that list for all intents and purposes. Focus on the icon
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On November 27 2013 02:30 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 01:48 NoobieOne wrote: This will likely be my only post on this thread unless something else comes up. I have talked to multiple people in this thread clarifying issues. I would just like to say that not everyone with that icon is a current member of team legacy and many have left due to various issues, some of which have been shown on this thread, some of which are others that I have pmed about and others for personal reasons. On the screenshot alone I see 2 people who left because of inactivity, one who left because he was being used by freelancer to help push his agenda and one who left with a group of people (including me) over 6 months ago due to many of the issues on this thread and others. There may be more that I am just not sure about because I haven't really been following team legacy membership since I left and I know that many people left after the group I was involved with revealed how big of a lie was actually going on. The icon was purely Freelancer's idea and the other people on that list should not be held responsible for having that icon on their name. If you want more information feel free to message me. I don't think that anybody here would actually blame the guys with the icon just for having the icon though.
Just clarifying. I've seen too many witch hunts over stuff that was less than that.
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On November 27 2013 04:03 NoobieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 02:30 SilentchiLL wrote:On November 27 2013 01:48 NoobieOne wrote: This will likely be my only post on this thread unless something else comes up. I have talked to multiple people in this thread clarifying issues. I would just like to say that not everyone with that icon is a current member of team legacy and many have left due to various issues, some of which have been shown on this thread, some of which are others that I have pmed about and others for personal reasons. On the screenshot alone I see 2 people who left because of inactivity, one who left because he was being used by freelancer to help push his agenda and one who left with a group of people (including me) over 6 months ago due to many of the issues on this thread and others. There may be more that I am just not sure about because I haven't really been following team legacy membership since I left and I know that many people left after the group I was involved with revealed how big of a lie was actually going on. The icon was purely Freelancer's idea and the other people on that list should not be held responsible for having that icon on their name. If you want more information feel free to message me. I don't think that anybody here would actually blame the guys with the icon just for having the icon though. Just clarifying. I've seen too many witch hunts over stuff that was less than that.
I like to believe that TL is better than that, or that we atleast focus our hatred on a single person or two, it's more efficient as well.
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On November 27 2013 04:05 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2013 04:03 NoobieOne wrote:On November 27 2013 02:30 SilentchiLL wrote:On November 27 2013 01:48 NoobieOne wrote: This will likely be my only post on this thread unless something else comes up. I have talked to multiple people in this thread clarifying issues. I would just like to say that not everyone with that icon is a current member of team legacy and many have left due to various issues, some of which have been shown on this thread, some of which are others that I have pmed about and others for personal reasons. On the screenshot alone I see 2 people who left because of inactivity, one who left because he was being used by freelancer to help push his agenda and one who left with a group of people (including me) over 6 months ago due to many of the issues on this thread and others. There may be more that I am just not sure about because I haven't really been following team legacy membership since I left and I know that many people left after the group I was involved with revealed how big of a lie was actually going on. The icon was purely Freelancer's idea and the other people on that list should not be held responsible for having that icon on their name. If you want more information feel free to message me. I don't think that anybody here would actually blame the guys with the icon just for having the icon though. Just clarifying. I've seen too many witch hunts over stuff that was less than that. I like to believe that TL is better than that, or that we atleast focus our hatred on a single person or two, it's more efficient as well.
which TL?
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Also I like their achievements in general.
Only one achievement is for Team Legacy. The rest are for "TL" which were all Team Liquid communities he played in. I bet that false association was an accident, too. Lots of accidents.
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Cognitive dissonance has surely long since settled in and I'm sure he believes any lie he spews at this point.
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Yeah, basically, Team Legacy is a joke. My friend and I still crack jokes about them to this day, and I quit about 2 years ago.
I joined at the very beginning, coming from playing competitive-level GW1 (If you check back on my posts, I say I was top 50. I was not, I don't know why I said that, I was much younger and immature) when I was much younger. I was excited by their idea to be the the best in the game and be competitive. LOL. I was wrong to be. They actually tried convincing me WvWvW was just as legitimately competitive as organized 5v5. They got angry when I said that was ridiculous and attributed it to me "being young and naive." Which was funny, because they literally had no real gaming background at all.
They both (freelancer and lonniehaskel, the founders) claimed to be atleast semi-pro in multiple games, such as WoW, sc:bw, and CS. Lonnie told me he used to smash idra (he could beat him one handed, he touted) and was on some prominent team that I BELIEVE maynard started, but I know for sure it was a European only team. Also, I went at that time and looked at the team roster and history and he was never on it. Whenever you attempted to have a conversation with them about the competitive scene, they were obviously lacking in knowledge (such as the type of leagues in competitive CS) and were never able to produce things such as WoW Armories or tell your the monikers they used in sc:bw.
I went on to have a strong voice in the guild (I was "High Council") along with some others, only a couple of which I respected, but pretty much was told I was wrong in every circumstance. I was given the ability (along with some others) to do interviews and choose which recruits entered, but was over-ruled any time someone had "potential." Basically it turned from a competitive guild into a casual one (Think LaZy if you played GW1, although I have much more respect for LaZy) where there was literally a ~12 year old who lived in Brazil and pretty much never even played a real game (i.e. not runescape) on the computer before. You can go look, his name was Bialba. It's hilarious. I'm not trying to be a dick to him, it was just hilarious that someone like that was considered a valued member of our "community." That's the most ridiculous example I can give, but there were plenty of situations similar (console FPS gamers that were touted as theory-crafting masters etc.)
They made fools out of themselves when TeamQuitter (premier competitive GW1 site) basically called them scrubs and started laughing at them. Of course, legacy took offense to this, made a private thread and called them all trolls in it. That pissed me off, as I had frequented QQ, and I actually went on QQ forums and said I am in no way in support of what legacy said. I got in trouble for that one. =)
I also remember them having grandiose plans to become huge streamers because "that's where the money is." As well as freelancer telling me he got a menagerie of razer items from their "sponsorship with razer." So that addresses their profits part, but I don't really know much more about that.
And as to the association to Team Liquid, I was told by freelancer (or free, as we so affectionately called him) that he was constantly in contact with high-ranking liquid mods. I don't remember much more than that.
I have been inactive on TL (the real one) but I saw the title of this thread, had a good laugh as freelancer has been ousted (although I never really looked at it as him taking advantage of team liquid, otherwise I would have taken action, I assumed it started with good intentions). Freelancer is the type of person that you're never sure whether or not he is lying, even when talking about meaningless things, because he lies THAT much. Lonniehaskel was very similar. I decided to leave the guild or community or whatever it was at that point because I couldn't deal with it anymore. Plus most people in it sucked. I left on good terms just in case, on an off chance, they ended up being influential competitively. Nope, just a zerg recruited guild. Or community. Family. Whatever.
If you guys have any questions (including personal ones about my relationship to the guild, or anything else) I'll be happy to answer them. I won't be punctual however, I don't frequent these forums anymore. I'm only on periodically.
P.S. Hi freelancer/lonnie/whoever they're sending to check up on the thread! Have fun telling everyone I'm just another troll! At some point, you have to realize, if there's so many 'trolls' then maybe you're the ones who are trolling. Lmao.
P.P.S Everything Frozire wrote is true. And also, to Thrill's points: Tales of Tyria was created by freelancer. And no, team legacy was never going to be the #1 guild in any facet other than size. And though I never ended up playing much GW2 (didn't like the game), I have reliable sources that told me team legacy never amounted to anything in competitive play.
P.P.P.S. If I haven't gone about the right way in posting this, please let me know. I'm not really aware of the social norms on this forum anymore, as I rarely visit.
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Hey Disciple long time! I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to know the worst happened well after you left. Trust me a top 50 claim isn't as bad a lie as those that Free told everyone else later on.
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On November 29 2013 15:21 NoobieOne wrote: Hey Disciple long time! I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to know the worst happened well after you left. Trust me a top 50 claim isn't as bad a lie as those that Free told everyone else later on.
What exactly is "the worst"?
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eagerly awaiting ^-^
I came close to joining this guild today, have not really been active in the true TL community. It has been a long time since I followed the scene/community, however it has always been one of my favorite forums to come to and read up on various things while perusing the internets or sitting at work desks
Thank the high heavens I was denied by the great one himself, Freelancer, and his all powerful staff of high council, near immediately. The very quick turnaround, and weird feel I was left with made me seek out a little more research, inevitably returning to these great lands, and low and behold come to find out what I now have, all I can do is feel somewhat grateful. I didn't need experience the sh**show that would have been being apart team legacy for wildstar's release. It was strange recruitment to say the least, and even a mention of the words "teamliquid" in my app set off flags, for which I received numerous PM's from freelancer and other HC's followed by my app simply deleted within 24 hours, no explanation. I thought at first, "Maybe they REALLY REALLY do not like when you break the format rules in place, do I need to remake it and not mess with un-bolding their questions in the form?" So I did, and re-answered their questions, only to immediately have my second app taken down, followed by some interaction with free, followed by some research, followed by some "wow...this happens online?!?"
all in all, it was a happy thanksgiving
and a big thank you for taking the time to expose this and bring about (albeit lesser then Michael deserves) justice.
-buda
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Whew. Okay so I'm going to weigh in on this for anyone willing to listen.
I was just as deceived at first, and I did my part to protect myself, and every possible quality member that I met while I was there. Being that I’ve been around in the gaming world, have gained some credible fame, and know what the inner workings of Team Legacy were like, I’m just going to put this here:
I played Guild Wars 2 with Team Legacy, not initially, but ultimately. I ran the WvW for them shortly after they transferred to Isle of Janthir. During that time I was running the WvW for the Eternal Battlegrounds for the server, and coordinating with multiple guilds to really push the server (We climbed up to the top ranking servers fast!). I had left Jade Quarry (who was battling for first during launch) where I was doing the same thing.
Let me give a little background first. I started playing MMO’s back in 1998 with EQ and UO. My real claim to fame was playing the hell out of DAoC and PvPing on Mordred, its FFAPvP rule set server. The groups and players from the first generation MMO gamers are the guys that went on and created a lot of these WoW arena first and second season winners. After that was WoW where I was part of a funeral bombing and participated in some of the US’s leading PvE. I’ve either ran, managed, or affiliated myself with guilds like Malice, Jaded, FreeRPS, Team Ice, Blood Legion, Serenity Now, Bedlam, Insurrection, Dragon Family, BANDA, Dizzy, Torcan, Wrath, Condemned, Pro, Akademia, Nerf Dialogue, Blood Pact and Team Legacy.
For me, it’s important to note and I don’t think anyone here thinks this, but the members for the most part, aren’t responsible for Team Legacy being such a fraudulent piece of crap—that’s all Freelancer’s blame. I didn’t play much SC2, and certainly didn’t follow the community, so I wasn’t informed to the big names like Team Liquid (I had just heard the name) etc. The allure of Team Legacy for me didn’t have anything to do with Freelancer or Team Liquid’s false affiliation; instead it came from a member of my group named Blackie who at the time, had nothing but amazing, positive things to say about Team Legacy. You see, Blackie had joined my group of pvpers (which was incredibly small but made a huge impact huehuehue). Being active in the GW2 community I had heard mentions of Team Legacy, but never really followed them and almost all the information I had on them came from Blackie. I don’t want to say Blackie looked up to the guild, but he was not only a fan, but learned a bunch of tactics from the initial strand of PvP that came from Team Legacy which was actually pretty good. When Team Legacy finally joined Isle of Janthir, Blackie had an opportunity to play with them, and I fully supported his decision as his previous guild lead.
Eventually Team Legacy had come to Isle of Janthir in GW2 and after Blackie joined them, and I would coordinate with them, Freelancer started to ask me to join. At this point, I had developed some pretty solid contacts from guilds all over the world, and the best piece of advice was the only one I ignored. It came from a guy named Aneu who runs the European guild VoTF. He told me how much of a snake Freelancer was, and what a waste it would be if I helped build this thing, because Freelancer would never let go. I knew nothing about this guy, only that he ran this massive guild that put out a damn quality product (at that time and ONLY because of its members, primarily their Science Team). I accepted only on the terms that I’m not treated like some stooge, but that I would be brash and offer my opinion up front. When you play MMOs for a long time, and also I think most would agree at this stage, but nobody wants to backtrack and have to climb the “guild ladder” again. It was almost instantaneously after joining that I was made an officer and ran the WvW (Commanded) for most of the raids as Freelancer and my raid leading is drastically different. The structure within Team Legacy was pretty complex at first, with teams going to incredible detail coming up with strategies, creating google docs, writing almost everything down. Strange statistics like how much time would it take to get from point A to point B etc. For me, having those tools helped coordinate a good majority of large scale pvp success. It was at this point, where enough attention was on me within the structure that was Team Legacy, that naturally Freelancer began is insipid issues with me. The dude is nuts and likes the spot light, but I learned so much about him and what was really happening that it was scary for members that were involved. I’d like to share with you, now that his arrogance and malice is in the spotlight.
One of the claims that Freelancer has is that he literally swears that everything in Team Legacy is ran based off ideals and concepts he’s interpreted (horribly) by the writings of Sun Tzu. No I’m not making this shit up, this guy is a lunatic about this crap and swears that his entire guild organizational strategy is based off Sun Tzu and his (horrible) understanding of Sun Tzu’s writings. This includes the guild’s leadership structure which he claims is based off the US Military (which he never served) and the filtering of information (which he claims is the right way to do things because our Military and Government does these things). I’m going this in-depth because I want you all to understand the lunacy behind this guy. A fake is a fake, and this guy is as fake and malicious as they come. Being that I was in a leadership position (officer) and handled my share of pvp, I was part of a lot of “management” conversations about direction and member management. Team Legacy runs Skype channels for public chat and “High Council” chat to discuss all matters about the guild.
Almost immediately, I had distaste for Freelancer as more people wanted me to lead raids and move things about. He constantly would attempt to strong-arm me and my position within the organization. The biggest issue I saw was that the players that would create strategies and ideas for PvP would beg and plead with him about making changes and areas to focus on, and since he had garnered enough attention and e-fame to stroke his ego, he would take strategizing into his own hands where he lacked the actual experience and ability to do things correctly and competitive and completely neglect the very people that made Team Legacy a competitive group. Things started to slump, and naturally, fell back on me to maintain from a WvW / PvP perspective. Eventually I was tired, annoyed, and felt like it was time to move on, even though there were a vast majority of people that would anticipate my leadership and direction for raid leads. It was during this time, which Freelancer decided he wasn’t going to allow another me to get even remotely close to controlling his Team Legacy.
He decided to recreate his “High Council” and surrounded it by people that would do anything he said no matter how stupid and naïve (yes men). He would feed them countless lies such as the Team Liquid affiliation and the countless sponsorships that he doesn’t actually have. He did this to protect his seat in power, and constantly referenced Sun Tzu and the US Government / Military for his reasoning. He then took to the forums and blast recruited for the group and pushed all of the legitimate members away, and essentially flooded the roster with new comers left and right, most of whom he immediately promoted to “High Council” or “Council” so long as they would do whatever he said and believe anything he said. The good, quality players of Team Legacy faded away, and he rode the horse earned by the positive reputation of skill and tactics of its original members to an extreme I didn’t think was possible.
With this HUGE influx of new players, he would constantly babble about promoting Team Legacy and donating to Amazon / Team Legacy’s PayPal account. He claimed that Team Legacy was a legitimate LLC corporation that he filed with another member (Orz) in Chattanooga, TN (where he’s from). He claimed that all of these supposed donations would go to the Team Legacy, LLC. To help promote the site, pay for bills for the site, various servers, etc. The only problem is, Team Legacy, LLC. did not exist. Ever. The only Team Legacy that was a legitimate Team Legacy is an IT and Real Estate consulting firm founded by Lovise and Cheryl Jiles (http://www.tsdesignstudio.net/blog_inner.php?id=28). Freelancer was profiting from countless member’s donations and from revenue created from the Amazon link posted in the Team Legacy website. I couldn’t associate myself with someone like that, and it drove me to start doing some homework behind the scenes. I even pulled up the Chattanooga court fillings for corporation foundations and there was no Team Legacy, LLC in TN. The closest legitimate corporation matching anything close to Team Legacy was out of Indiana on a farm road and an abandoned building. Even that corporation was expired. What Michael Foster is doing is absolutely criminal and wrong. He’s privateering off a reputation gained and earned from quality people (Team Liquid and its reputation, along with the good players that bought into the lies and actually committed to solid skill and gaming during Team Legacy’s inception) that no longer affiliate themselves with Team Legacy because ALL of them started to see the big pictures and moved on. Not just from a monetary perspective, but additionally for forum mod privileges, and access to Beta games.
Freelancer was SO paranoid after I had begun to call him out that he would stoop to snooping in on Forum messages and private information. He commandeered multiple twitch.tv streams and channels that players would associate with Team Legacy’s “group” on twitch, and forwarded them to his personal stream. It’s also important to note, that Freelancer also did something similar to another individual named Bridger. Let me clarify first, Bridger is a nice guy, but he is also one of the most uninformed naïve people I’ve ever met playing games. He hosted a show for the GW2 community called Tales of Tyria that broadcasted on Twitch. He created a cult following and tied everything he did into the Team Legacy group. The problem with his “knowledge and understanding” is that he never even geared out a single, solitary toon for GW2. He wasn’t even level cap until everyone started leaving. Bridger also happens to be part of Team Legacy’s High Council, again, someone that will acknowledge the false affiliation with Team Liquid, for the sole purpose of protecting Freelancer’s reputation. The reason I bring this up, is because Freelancer utilized Bridger’s popular show to publicize and generate more attention to his fraudulent claims. He’d appear on the show and try to get more people to buy into his lies. You talk about a real piece of shit, this guy goes to no end, using and twisting everyone and everything in his way. During this time, Freelancer was having a kid, and worked as a cable tech. The dude is a scumbag and he focused all of his attention on stealing everything he possibly could using the Team Legacy brand that was built on lies and the sweat of quality members that sacrificed time and effort to build what they at the time believed to be a legitimate brand.
When I ultimately left Team Legacy, I took with me a good majority of its core members, which were responsible for putting it on the map. Unfortunately with work (I’m Director of IT for a large Engineering firm) and health issues in my family, I didn’t have the time to lead them, and they ultimately moved on to a group named Bloodwinter Clan (also from DAoC). I’ve known its leader Twyst for 14 years and they’re making some pretty decent waves in Final Fantasy XIV. These particular players have been under scrutiny, and have dealt with the negative effects of Freelancer’s exposure because at the time, they bought in (as did I) to a brand that we thought was a legitimate collection of solid players. Additionally it’s important to point out, aside from being a stewing piece of shit for what he’s done, he’s also a sexist pig that tells female members that they need to respect his authority and power placement within the guild. There have been several times where he’s yelled and screamed at women in the guild and blamed them for his own shortcomings (huehuehue). Especially when it came to guild money management, something he feels he should always profit from.
After I left, the group of players that left with me, were part of Team Legacy’s “Council” and had been within its structure since its inception. Because Freelancer constantly would twist and change everything that was sent out by members on their forums, a guy named Edwin, who was a longtime friend of Freelancer and an Officer collected all of our resignation letters and blasted them in a forum wide email, so that Freelancer couldn’t change the contents of the letters. Freelancer is such a nut, that he decided to bring down the website, and their own TS3 to make more fraudulent claims that we were attacking and maliciously hurting their website. This guy took down his own guilds website and cried wolf to gain the trust of his members. How sick and twisted do you get? At what point do you say to yourself, this is a little far for an online community? As everyone who’s read this can see: In the recent letter that Freelancer sent out to the current members of Team Legacy, he spoon feeds and manipulates any information or news that he feels is threatening to his cult following. Serejai took the time to write this post and expose him, and he completely ignores the post and responds to the rest of his members like they’re all sheep.
The point of all this is to watch out for this spineless piece of shit. I’m not Jaded about the result of Team Legacy, I’m happy that at the very least, via connection with me, the people I cared about are doing well with people that I know are well, and no longer are effected by Freelancer. He is a thoughtless, deceitful, sexist, criminal, scumfuck that steals from all of his members, and leeches reputations and experience from quality players. Wherever he is recruiting, wherever he is attempting another scheme to try and profit from gamers that are looking for a home, if you see it, remind them what a piece of shit he is, before he earns more money off the hard work of legitimate players.
Here are some legitimate examples so you can see what the piece of shit is like to his own guild and members.
This is a conversation between Edwin and Freelancer; Edwin was an officer since it was at it's earliest stages, and was also considered a friend. Edwin met his long time girlfriend in Team Legacy (you'd think being so loyal would get you some type of respect), and this is how he was treated:
+ Show Spoiler +
Here's an example of a conversation between Freelancer and myself after I explained non stop that I won't just agree with everything he said. Not important at all, and completely worthless, but worth reading if you're bored to get an idea of the type of leader he is:
+ Show Spoiler +[1:09:55 AM] Freelancer: Here is what is going on. [1:10:13 AM] Arctix: I don't really care, it's entirely irrelivant if the decision has been made. Right now you're listed as a Chapter member. I made it a point both in council and HC that I feel once you calm down, and get back on the right mindset, that you could be among the most valuable we have in TL. [1:11:03 AM] Arctix: I don't need your assertation of when I'm calmed down. I'm not your kid. [1:11:24 AM] Arctix: I have no interest in being apart of council under Freelancer's dictatorship. A member with no opinion will suffice. [1:11:48 AM] Freelancer: Until you understand that the verbage you use against me and other HC, and the general "i need to go against the grain" mentality relaxes, we cannot count on you to represent TL in matters that affect the entire community. [1:12:07 AM] Freelancer: Arctix, call it as you normally do, but this was a decision among all HC, unanimously. [1:12:10 AM] Freelancer: We are finished. [1:12:10 AM] Arctix: That's just the image you put up there Free, that isn't what actually is happening, it's only how you take it [1:12:22 AM] Arctix: We're just getting started. [1:12:42 AM] Freelancer: And what is that supposed to mean exactly? Your continual remarks towards me and that of the integrity of HC, which even now you continue with, is exactly what brought you here in the first place. [1:16:02 AM] Arctix: No what brought me in here, is your inability to understand that I am not a yes-man. Once we move past that, will you be able to understand anything I say. You're speaking down to me, and it's having zero effect. You then changed it form conversing to dictating, and that's where I lost interest in council. But make sure that when you say something, you say it correctly. It isn't because I'm "going against the grain" it's because I will not be apart of a council that's lead by someone who wants to dictate things as opposed to listen to the individual and accept the growth of the community from different backgrounds. [1:16:40 AM] Freelancer: That is your opinion. [1:16:51 AM] Arctix: No, that's fact [1:16:58 AM] Arctix: backed up with quotes from you saying exactly such. Freelancer: I hope with time you will see TL council members do in fact come from many different backgrounds, and in reality, the members in HC are not those I get along with per say, but exactly the opposite, they are individuals who consistently disagree with me [1:17:42 AM] Freelancer: Perhaps in time you will open your eyes to it. [1:17:47 AM] Freelancer: It's what makes TL, TL. [1:17:49 AM] Arctix: Freelancer doesn't get to say what Arctix's motives are, he can only assume. [1:21:50 AM] Arctix: Well, you don't seem to think TL makes TL, you think HC makes TL, so that arguement is null and void. You are doing the community a loss, my leadership skills and world pvp strategy skills are 100% what got me where I am, and I have done nothing publically to go against the grain. I have offered my service to TL as a Council Member, and have never strayed away from out. For you to come down on me and attempt to Police me for no reason, and claim that I am essentially being a Rebel, when I have done nothing outside of conversing with YOU solely makes for a pretty pathetic arguement, and is honestly a disservice to this community. I offered to help, and you're saying I cannot help because I won't accept Freelancer as my supreme leader and just agree with everything you say. You claim I'm a public neusance, yet have never done anything to warrant it. That's fine, if that's the way you want to play it, then equally, I do not want to be in council. There is no arguement have fun, I will continue to enjoy being a Member, and only a Member. [1:23:59 AM | Edited 1:25:18 AM] Freelancer: It's not a matter of whether you want to be in council. You were removed an hour ago. In a perfect scenario, Id like you to re-read these conversations and work past your "complex" - however you define it. I cannot control your emotions, or anger, or motives. Correct. [1:29:51 AM] Arctix: I'm not the one with a complex Freelancer. I'm okay with you sitting up there on that ant hill with a magnifying glass. I don't really care anymore. Like I said I'm okay with being a member. I dont ever want to be a Council member again.
This is Freelancer lying to his Officers about some magical exclusive knowledge and program he has with nVidia, along with his claim that he's a Curse staff member.
+ Show Spoiler +[10:54:04 AM] Freelancer: Use beta drivers. [10:54:27 AM] Arctix: nyeh it's a matter of preference. These are solid, the other ones bug out in sli [10:55:02 AM] Freelancer: Im running sli. They work fine. Always have [10:55:09 AM] Arctix: besides these are newer [10:55:17 AM] Arctix: the latest beta drivers are from jan 29th [10:55:18 AM] Freelancer: No theyre not. [10:55:22 AM] Arctix: 313.96? [10:55:28 AM] Arctix: 314.07 are from yesterday [10:55:29 AM] Kenny "Voison" Gordon: woot 2/0 [10:55:32 AM] Arctix: and whql [10:55:43 AM] Arctix: so I'm going with yep [10:55:50 AM] Arctix: http://www.nvidia.com/Download/Find.aspx[10:55:58 AM] Freelancer: Oh your not in the beta program? There is an open and members only [10:56:10 AM] Freelancer: Its not hard to get in [10:57:05 AM] Arctix: No, I just run whatever is released as whql unless there's a massive performance drag. There's no sense in changing your drivers every damn time a game is released. It was getting annoying [10:57:15 AM] Arctix: I used to be active on guru3d.com [10:57:24 AM] Arctix: back in the good 'ole days of 3dfx [10:57:33 AM] Arctix: and voodoo glide mapping [10:57:45 AM] Freelancer: I got in through being on curse staff [10:57:55 AM] Freelancer: But anyone can
The conversation below is the first time I butted heads with Freelancer. I legitimately tried to make it work, not knowing anything about the false claim to fame, or the deceit that was really going on. This is also him claiming responsibility for everything that the members of Team Legacy worked so hard to achieve:
+ Show Spoiler +?<00:06:03> "[TL] Freelancer": I meant it when I said I hold respect for your abilities. ?<00:07:09> "[TL] Freelancer": That is the way I lead, and have led other guilds in multiple capacities. ?<00:07:31> "[TL] Freelancer": If I see any opportunity to expand or better TL, I will take it. If I see anything hurting TL, I will smash it. ?<00:07:46> "[TL] Freelancer": It's not always pretty, but as everyone knows, it always is in the best interest of TL. ?<00:08:42> "[TL] Freelancer": Everything you see around you, and the tag you bear, is my creation and mindset. I will never do anything or make any decision that is not in the best interest of the guild. ?<00:08:59> "[TL]Arctix": I don't doubt it at all, I can take jabs, I don't bode well with disrespect. I think time will help mold this into a better situation. To me GM is a title, and respect is earned. While other people naturally crumble because of power, I treat everyone as an equal. I repsect your position within the guild, but to me it doesn't change disrespect in the way you speak to me, and like I said, with time, I believe that will get better. The one thing that is absolutely undeniable is that we both have the best interest for TL ?<00:09:01> "[TL] Freelancer": Whether I have to step in and make a decision, or whether I sit back and say nothing. ?<00:10:05> "[TL] Freelancer": At this point you need to understand that I am your leader, and hence lead you. I'd like you to say you respect that, or not. ?<00:10:52> "[TL] Freelancer": I created the councils to support my goals and ambitions, and after having a staff meeting just now, that is the only thing I need to know. ?<00:12:09> "[TL]Arctix": Strictly speaking for me, You have to lead by example. I have never sold you short of your abilities, however I will not be disrespected like that, which was my initial problem. I really do think that with time everything will be benefitial to the community as a whole and our relationship will better. You also have a lot on your plate and I understand that ?<00:12:51> "[TL] Freelancer": You need to understand I've been leading by exmaple in TL for years, and brought it to where it was. You need to respect that the history you were not witness to is very much there, and what made TL what it is. ?<00:13:41> "[TL] Freelancer": I will do my best to give you an easier time, but you can not live by "Free has to prove himself to me". That is not how this works sadly. ?<00:13:53> "[TL] Freelancer": If I cannot command respect of my officers, well. You go read SunTzu ?<00:13:57> "[TL] Freelancer": theres steps to take. ?<00:14:02> "[TL]Arctix": I have that respect, I don't question that, my issue was the lack of respect when speaking to me or someone who doesn't agree. To me, you can't just say well just do it, or that's it because I said so. That's not how things work. I will not ignore the years of experience I bring to the table, because, we have a mutual interest, TL ?<00:14:27> "[TL] Freelancer": You have interest in TL Arctx. I am TL. That's all I'm saying. ?<00:14:41> "[TL] Freelancer": Everything surrounding you is my work and creation. ?<00:15:03> "[TL] Freelancer": My money, my assignments, my delegation. ?<00:16:09> "[TL] Freelancer": I have a staff that is staff because they are all people who always agree with me. I respect people that stand up and speak their mind. ?<00:16:53> "[TL] Freelancer": Lets pop on TL TS ?<00:16:55> "[TL]Arctix": Time, that's what it'll take, and the understanding of each other. You respect me, and I'll respect you. It's what you and I agreed upon when we finished that conversation, and I think that's the best thing for TL. There are a lot of people that look up to me too. It makes sense for the two of us to get along.
Here's one that really shows the character of Michael Foster. He's one of those WATCH YOUR TONE, type of people, and I'm more of a respect is earned type of guy. This conversation defined almost my entire participation with this organization:
+ Show Spoiler +?<20:20:29> "Freelancer": watch your tone. ?<20:20:32> Chat partner has closed the conversation ?<20:21:31> "Arctix": Free, don't start that shit with me. We have a job that we agreed to. and don't speak to me like a child. We've talked about it ?<20:22:03> "Freelancer": Watch your tone. Last warning. ?<20:22:37> "Freelancer": ?I am not treating you like a child. I am speaking to you privately in a professional manner ?<20:22:41> "Freelancer": and you are being disrespectful. ?<20:23:04> "Arctix": I'm telling you once again, don't talk to me like I'm a child. We have assignments, and as the w3 council we're sticking with it ?<20:23:27> "Freelancer": This has nothing to do with assignments. this has to do with your tone right now in TS. ?<20:24:28> "Arctix": lol I'm laughing it up with other peeps. Don't speak to me like that. I'm not a child. If I'm saying come to X BL it's for a reason. It's our job ?<20:25:23> "Freelancer": It's not what you said, it's how you said it. ?<20:25:30> "Freelancer": Watch yourself Artcx. ?<20:25:50> "Arctix": I told you not to speak to me like that. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. ?<20:26:17> "Arctix": I'm not a child. We have obligations ?<20:26:23> "Freelancer": I am your guild leader and I run TL. I will correct you any way I see fit. You will respect that. ?<20:26:30> "Freelancer": from now on. you will privately discuss issues with me. ?<20:28:09> "Arctix": No, the councils run TL this is your verbage. in each and every different council area. ...and before you say I have a problem with authority, I'm going based off what you've said. We (Unreasonable and I) went to these meetings to better the server. This is what I'm talking about ?<20:28:31> "Freelancer": I created the councils to delgate my duties. The entire council idea is my creation Arctx. Dont be so blind. ?<20:28:58> "Freelancer": Were going way off-topic. this has nothing to do with moving back to aguuma ?<20:29:01> "Arctix": I'm not blind by anymeans ?<20:29:13> "Arctix": Look ?<20:31:04> "Arctix": set the ego aside for a second, there are issues that are bigger than me. You know I have more GM experience than you do, this is your first voyage at the helm...sortaspeak. I like being here, but don't start talking to me as though I'm a child. ?<20:31:23> "Arctix": The only thing I did, was pop in here and correct the BL ?<20:31:24> "Freelancer": Ego? You brought ego in this "big boy" bringing it up personally as if I was calling you a child ?<20:31:37> "Freelancer": This is straight professional to professional, or so I thought ?<20:31:43> "Freelancer": but now i see how you take criticism on a bad day ?<20:31:48> "Arctix": Don't bark commands at me, as though I'm a dog.. ?<20:32:09> "Freelancer": And dont bite the hand that feeds you. ?<20:32:12> "Arctix": No not at all, you initiated this conversation in an aggressive mannor ?<20:32:17> "Arctix": I'm not ?<20:32:28> "Freelancer": You did, and have done so a few times now. ?<20:32:34> "Freelancer": You intiated this talking to TL members like that ?<20:32:52> "Arctix": No, I haven't I allow them to speak freely ?<20:33:18> "Arctix": Nevertheless, don't speak to me as though I'm a child. ?<20:33:59> "Freelancer": No, you specifically ordered them to line up in a very aggressive tone, where multiple members asked wtf was wrong with you. ?<20:34:12> "Freelancer": I will respond to that, and I did. Point is, you don't have to like it. ?<20:34:32> "Arctix": No, the people around me totally understand what's going on ?<20:34:42> "Freelancer": Yea, so they told me. ?<20:34:45> "Freelancer": Were done. ?<20:35:49> "Arctix": Sure we can be done, but do not speak to me like a child, it's that simple man. I don't know what your issue is, but I am not lesser than you. Myself, and the rest of the council do what we do for the guild ?<20:36:36> "Freelancer": And I appreciate you guys taking over my duties to allow me to focus on bigger pictures. ?<20:37:16> "Arctix": I'm telling you this as a buddy. Don't speak to me like that. Other people me accept that, but I won't. ?<20:37:26> "Arctix": I'm here for TL and you know that ?<20:37:27> "Freelancer": As a human being, you are NOT lesser than me, in rank and in TL, you are. ?<20:37:30> "Freelancer": Learn it Arctx, and quick. ?<20:37:36> "Arctix": See that ?<20:38:04> "Freelancer": You could very well be a much better person IRL than me arctx. ?<20:38:10> "Freelancer": but when you put that TL tag on, you have obligations ?<20:38:26> "Arctix": there you go again. I already HAVE it. I have more experience than you do when it comes to guild organization. I don't care if you accept that or not, but if you can't accept that, that's a totally different issue ?<20:38:52> "Arctix": I joined TL to bring my abilities, and experience to the pool of already existing stuff ?<20:38:58> "Freelancer": You know nothing about my guild organization or history Arctx. Do not play that card, that is not a place you want to go. ?<20:39:04> "Arctix": See that ?<20:39:07> "Arctix": right there ?<20:39:10> "Freelancer": You started it. ?<20:39:16> "Arctix": no, YOU started it ?<20:39:22> "Freelancer": <21:38:18> "Arctix": there you go again. I already HAVE it. I have more experience than you do when it comes to guild organization. I don't care if you accept that or not, but if you can't accept that, that's a totally different issue ?<20:39:23> "Freelancer": <21:38:18> "Arctix": there you go again. I already HAVE it. I have more experience than you do when it comes to guild organization. I don't care if you accept that or not, but if you can't accept that, that's a totally different issue ?<20:39:35> "Arctix": I know enough to say that you are in no place to speak to me like that ?<20:39:46> "Arctix": Same team ?<20:39:48> "Freelancer": You've never been in the military have you? ?<20:40:05> "Arctix": the military has nothing to do with online gaming or e sports ?<20:40:09> "Freelancer": It just occured to me. ?<20:40:11> "Freelancer": Have you? ?<20:41:05> "Arctix": No, but what I have been is apart of major mmo guilds and communities. Played longer, and know how to handle a situation like this. You don't talk down to people the way you do. ?<20:41:09> "Arctix": It's wrong ?<20:41:22> "Freelancer": There you go once again. Assuming you know a damn thing about me. ?<20:42:10> "Freelancer": You realize you speak that I am talking down to you, but then you turn around and form a side of your story which directly "plays" me down? ?<20:42:23> "Freelancer": by speaking of your assumed experience over mine? ?<20:42:24> "Arctix": Okay, by the same token, there you go assuming that whatever "experience" you have, automatically subsidizes (sp) anything I say because you sit in the GM seat. Instead of utilizing the experience and knowledge that I have ?<20:42:31> "Freelancer": Thats hypocritical. ?<20:42:51> "Freelancer": No Arctx. I speak of experience in TL, the ONLY experience that matters. ?<20:43:04> "Arctix": No that's wrong though TL experience isn't the only one that matters ?<20:43:20> "Arctix": we come from so many different backgrounds and all of these help TL grow to a better place ?<20:45:22> "Arctix": Look, case and point, I don't think you're a bad guy. I have more video game leadership experience than you do. I am more than willing to help facilitate and augment your GM seat, but you have to be willing to listen instead of automatically turning it down because you're not used to people speaking up. ?<20:45:25> "Arctix": and keep in mind ?<20:45:37> "Arctix": if I DID NOT WANT TO, I wouldn't offer ?<20:45:40> "Arctix": it's why I'm here ?<20:45:49> "Freelancer": Arctx. I dont give a shit what you think of me. There is a right way and wrong way to bring up issues, and you consistently choose the WRONG way. ?<20:45:59> "Freelancer": I'm starting to understand some things about you now.; ?<20:46:00> "Arctix": according to who? ?<20:46:32> "Arctix": You don't even listen to half the shit we talk about during our meetings with other guilds, or ideas and stuff that we have pushed as part of the council ?<20:46:52> "Freelancer": Arctx. You are brand new to those. I've been listening to meetings and running WvW for 3 years. ?<20:46:56> "Freelancer": Do NOT patronize me. ?<20:46:57> "Arctix": No I'm not lol ?<20:47:01> "Freelancer": I can very quickly do what you do and more. ?<20:47:05> "Freelancer": again. ?<20:47:10> "Freelancer": I APPRECIATE ?<20:47:12> "Freelancer": you taking over. ?<20:47:13> "Arctix": No you can't, because you haven't been where I have been ?<20:47:18> "Arctix": or done what I've done ?<20:47:23> "Freelancer": Vice versa. ?<20:47:24> "Arctix": you see who's defensive again? ?<20:47:44> "Arctix": okay than if it's vice versa, who's being hippocritical? ?<20:48:00> "Freelancer": Physchologically you've been defensive this entire time, and one would dictate a little passive, bringing up "factoids" whenever possible about yourself to appear bigger. ?<20:48:10> "Freelancer": This doesn't change the context of this Arctx. ?<20:48:13> "Arctix": no not at all, I've been defensive ?<20:48:26> "Freelancer": Therein lies your problem. ?<20:48:44> "Arctix": Well, you opened up with talking to me like I'm a child ?<20:48:51> "Freelancer": You talked to TL like children. ?<20:48:52> "Arctix": ala "do NOT patronize me" ?<20:49:08> "Arctix": No not at all, I speak to TL like equals and train them accordingly ?<20:49:19> "Arctix": I get great feedback from everyone ?<20:49:32> "Freelancer": I know exactly the ups and downs of what you get. ?<20:49:51> "Arctix": Free have you ever considered that you do not know everything? I mean look at what you're saying to me ?<20:50:14> "Freelancer": Arctx I know damn well I don't know everything. This has nothing to do with knowledge, experience, or anything of the sort. ?<20:50:48> "Arctix": Now you're taking it out of context, I don't mean you as a person ?<20:50:51> "Freelancer": This has to due with respect, and chain of command. ?<20:50:56> "Freelancer": We are dropping channel. ?<20:50:57> "Arctix": Wait a minute ?<20:51:08> "Arctix": Let's talk about respect ?<20:51:10> "Freelancer": This is being resolved right now.
Okay with all that I'm done with the boring conversations. I hope enough people read this, steer clear of Team Legacy, and more specifically Freelancer, and most importantly, please don't show hatred or disrespect towards former members of Team Legacy because of their past affiliations with Freelancer. The only reason I didn't quit immediately is because once I gained a leadership position within the guild and other players counted on me, I didn't want to let them down. I apologize for the lengthy post, but I feel like an insider's look would be helpful in understanding what a piece of shit this guy is.
Freelancer if you do read this, I sincerely hope you raise your kid to be better then his disrespectful petty father. I'm glad the Team Liquid community has finally acknowledge your lies and deceit, and is doing something to spread awareness of your e-cancer, because honestly man, stealing money from players that are joining your group for a home under a fake blanket of a gaming community is pretty fucking low. I'm just glad I never donated to your fake "LLC".
I love all yo faces,
Arctix
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Pretty interesting what pops out of the woodwork with situations like this.
I've never met Freelancer or directly interacted with him in any way so I know nothing about his personality. But holy shit the levels of crazy in those chats are off the chart. It's certainly interesting to see the bits of personality that you can match up to the actions taken.
[TL] Freelancer: You have interest in TL Arctx. I am TL. That's all I'm saying.
No wonder he's saying that this thread represents an attack on Team Legacy. He thinks he is Team Legacy.
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I am glad to say I'd never heard of Team Legacy until today. Best of luck to their site and community, though I do hope their users know about the man behind the site... I mean, if Nazgul was batshit insane, I think I'd want to be forewarned of that!
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On December 04 2013 19:11 DefMatrixUltra wrote: Pretty interesting what pops out of the woodwork with situations like this.
I've never met Freelancer or directly interacted with him in any way so I know nothing about his personality. But holy shit the levels of crazy in those chats are off the chart. It's certainly interesting to see the bits of personality that you can match up to the actions taken.
[TL] Freelancer: You have interest in TL Arctx. I am TL. That's all I'm saying.
No wonder he's saying that this thread represents an attack on Team Legacy. He thinks he is Team Legacy.
I enjoyed these quotes:
?<00:08:42> "[TL] Freelancer": Everything you see around you, and the tag you bear, is my creation and mindset. I will never do anything or make any decision that is not in the best interest of the guild.
?<20:28:31> "Freelancer": I created the councils to delgate my duties. The entire council idea is my creation Arctx. Dont be so blind. ?<20:32:09> "Freelancer": And dont bite the hand that feeds you.
Got a serious "dark emperor" vibe from star wars when I read that.
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On December 04 2013 21:20 SilentchiLL wrote:I enjoyed these quotes: Show nested quote +?<00:08:42> "[TL] Freelancer": Everything you see around you, and the tag you bear, is my creation and mindset. I will never do anything or make any decision that is not in the best interest of the guild.
?<20:28:31> "Freelancer": I created the councils to delgate my duties. The entire council idea is my creation Arctx. Dont be so blind. ?<20:32:09> "Freelancer": And dont bite the hand that feeds you. Got a sidious "dark emperor" vibe from star wars when I read that.
Fixed that for you.
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Netherlands19123 Posts
Thanks for the contribution Arctix, worth the whole read.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
Wow Arctix some of those chat logs are hilarious(ly creepy). Thanks for sharing though.
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This whole story could make a mighty good TV-series imo. Still I'm surprised how many people actually bought his lies, at least all of the leaders. I get that as a lower member you still get pretty awesome leaders like Arctix so I guess that's also a reason why they got big, but for all the higher ranked people I don't get why they didn't just quit/switched clans.
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Hyrule18768 Posts
"[TL] Freelancer": I have a staff that is staff because they are all people who always agree with me
lol
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On December 04 2013 23:21 tofucake wrote: "[TL] Freelancer": I have a staff that is staff because they are all people who always agree with me
lol
Don't leave out the best part of the quote
?<00:16:09> "[TL] Freelancer": I have a staff that is staff because they are all people who always agree with me. I respect people that stand up and speak their mind.
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I respect people that stand up and speak their mind in complete agreement with me.
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Nice, Arctix, well worth the read.
Team Liquid is pretty non-judgemental, you don't have to worry about people judging team legacy folks for no reason.
Thanks for your post! Hopefully more and more people start to understand what a crappy person this guy has been and things start to break out from under him.
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lol wow those chat logs are wonderful. hes like a cartoon villain.
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TLADT24917 Posts
thanks for the post Arctix. Interesting thread as well. I recall hearing the name Team Legacy from somewhere, thought it was some NA SCII team or something but never bothered to look into it. I also was interested in GW2 at one point but forgot the reason I didn't look into it's release(maybe just plain forgot lol). Either way, glad that things are cleared up and any lies if that was the case are exposed.
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Now that I'm at home and can read this a little more closely (work reading ftw)
He claimed that all of these supposed donations would go to the Team Legacy, LLC. To help promote the site, pay for bills for the site, various servers, etc. The only problem is, Team Legacy, LLC. did not exist. Ever. The only Team Legacy that was a legitimate Team Legacy is an IT and Real Estate consulting firm founded by Lovise and Cheryl Jiles (http://www.tsdesignstudio.net/blog_inner.php?id=28). Freelancer was profiting from countless member’s donations and from revenue created from the Amazon link posted in the Team Legacy website. I couldn’t associate myself with someone like that, and it drove me to start doing some homework behind the scenes. I even pulled up the Chattanooga court fillings for corporation foundations and there was no Team Legacy, LLC in TN. The closest legitimate corporation matching anything close to Team Legacy was out of Indiana on a farm road and an abandoned building. Even that corporation was expired. What Michael Foster is doing is absolutely criminal and wrong.
Can any legal action come of this? I know I myself donate a lot to server costs and things for communities I love, and through no fault of their own, a lot of Team Legacy people probably sunk a lot of money into this place. I'd feel bad if they had no way to get their shit back because irninja is a tool.
This is ridiculous, he want from being a little brat on Minecraft to an actual conman. I can't wait to see the karma come crashing down on this kid. What a jackass.
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Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor. I haven't read Sun Tzu's book yet but does it state anywhere that the leader must rule with any iron fist or something? Wondering if the whole 'watch your tone' was inspired from that or something.
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Sun Tzu There are three ways in which a ruler can bring misfortune upon his army. By commanding the army to advance or to retreat, being ignorant of the fact that it cannot obey; this is called hobbling the army. By attempting to govern an army in the same way as he administers a kingdom, being ignorant of the conditions which obtain in an army; this causes restlessness in soldiers’ minds. By employing the officers of his army without discrimination, through ignorance of the military principle of adaptation to circumstances; this shakes the confidence of the soldiers.
Taken from a document where much of the evidence against Freelancer about things that Team Liquid probably won't care about. I don't know who added this quote to the document but it fits.
Art of War Ch 3
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On December 06 2013 11:21 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor. I haven't read Sun Tzu's book yet but does it state anywhere that the leader must rule with any iron fist or something? Wondering if the whole 'watch your tone' was inspired from that or something.
I doubt it. I don't think he ever even touched a book by Sun Tzu. Honestly, I think he was using it as kind of a "mandate of heaven" idea. A lot of what he did makes me think of that, honestly. i.e. My tactics are wrong? Well then Sun Tzu's tactics must be wrong too. I'm wrong? Well all of TLegacy must be wrong too. Oh you don't like what I'm doing here? Well Team Liquid is backing me, how can you argue with someone Team Liquid has given full confidence?
Holy shit, as I was writing this, I realized that man has created a video gaming religion, with Team Liquid as its god. It's presence is always felt, but never explicitly made. It is used to enforce certain codes or laws, morals, and ethics. Helps to give the leader a sense of right so no one else could ever lead. Wow.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On December 06 2013 14:26 Disciple7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 11:21 BigFan wrote:On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor. I haven't read Sun Tzu's book yet but does it state anywhere that the leader must rule with any iron fist or something? Wondering if the whole 'watch your tone' was inspired from that or something. I doubt it. I don't think he ever even touched a book by Sun Tzu. Honestly, I think he was using it as kind of a "mandate of heaven" idea. A lot of what he did makes me think of that, honestly. i.e. My tactics are wrong? Well then Sun Tzu's tactics must be wrong too. I'm wrong? Well all of TLegacy must be wrong too. Oh you don't like what I'm doing here? Well Team Liquid is backing me, how can you argue with someone Team Liquid has given full confidence? Holy shit, as I was writing this, I realized that man has created a video gaming religion, with Team Liquid as its god. It's presence is always felt, but never explicitly made. It is used to enforce certain codes or laws, morals, and ethics. Helps to give the leader a sense of right so no one else could ever lead. Wow. lol getting a bit ahead of yourself yes, I see your point now. I think he was just using it as a backup so that if one hasn't read the book, they are less likely to argue against him although if what Arctix posted is true especially the logs, I can't see how many would put up with that tbh. Being told to agree unconditionally and the whole 'watch your tone' would piss me off lol
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On December 06 2013 15:16 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 14:26 Disciple7 wrote:On December 06 2013 11:21 BigFan wrote:On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor. I haven't read Sun Tzu's book yet but does it state anywhere that the leader must rule with any iron fist or something? Wondering if the whole 'watch your tone' was inspired from that or something. I doubt it. I don't think he ever even touched a book by Sun Tzu. Honestly, I think he was using it as kind of a "mandate of heaven" idea. A lot of what he did makes me think of that, honestly. i.e. My tactics are wrong? Well then Sun Tzu's tactics must be wrong too. I'm wrong? Well all of TLegacy must be wrong too. Oh you don't like what I'm doing here? Well Team Liquid is backing me, how can you argue with someone Team Liquid has given full confidence? Holy shit, as I was writing this, I realized that man has created a video gaming religion, with Team Liquid as its god. It's presence is always felt, but never explicitly made. It is used to enforce certain codes or laws, morals, and ethics. Helps to give the leader a sense of right so no one else could ever lead. Wow. lol getting a bit ahead of yourself yes, I see your point now. I think he was just using it as a backup so that if one hasn't read the book, they are less likely to argue against him although if what Arctix posted is true especially the logs, I can't see how many would put up with that tbh. Being told to agree unconditionally and the whole 'watch your tone' would piss me off lol
I can confirm that everything arctix said was true (although very biased). I also had similar chat logs but will refrain from posting them since some of them probably break Team Liquid rules pertaining to personal attacks.
The reason that a lot of players stay in Team Legacy is due to the other members being genuine good people. When we left we took about 75% of the people I play with (only a small group of people that I play league with stayed behind) so that helped. I think that most people do not believe what they were being told but really it doesn't effect most the guild.
Team Legacy is not a LLC, has no sponsorships, had horrible leadership relations with other guilds (one of the members that left with me helped to improve that once Freelancer stepped out of an in game leadership role), consistently had NDA information presented in community meetings, and had many lies passed down to its members. However, I feel that most people that actually cared in the community were aware of this. Because of this I was originally hesitant to post in this thread, but I was able to talk to people from the guild and Freelancer ever so kindly sent me an email saying that he had a post in the member section of his forum about him coming clean.
(if anyone wants proof feel free to ask. I don't want to clutter up my post with 100s of google docs like the pm i had sent earlier)
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On December 06 2013 15:47 NoobieOne wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 15:16 BigFan wrote:On December 06 2013 14:26 Disciple7 wrote:On December 06 2013 11:21 BigFan wrote:On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: Hello, Noobie!
And Arctix, at what point did you join? Not relevant, just wondering. It's amazing to read your account of what happened at a different time because pretty much the same EXACT conversations occurred between myself, and Free, and another high-ranking member and Free when we were a part of the community and spoke our minds. I remember vividly the "watch your tone" statement. I also felt a responsibility to try to maintain my position in power in order to make the guild the best I could for the people in it, otherwise I would have left long before that.
Also, I forgot about the Sun Tzu thing. Him and Orz both lived by that. Going so far as to make ground-breaking, claims inspired by Sun Tzu himself, such as "stealth is good." (Lmao).
It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor. I haven't read Sun Tzu's book yet but does it state anywhere that the leader must rule with any iron fist or something? Wondering if the whole 'watch your tone' was inspired from that or something. I doubt it. I don't think he ever even touched a book by Sun Tzu. Honestly, I think he was using it as kind of a "mandate of heaven" idea. A lot of what he did makes me think of that, honestly. i.e. My tactics are wrong? Well then Sun Tzu's tactics must be wrong too. I'm wrong? Well all of TLegacy must be wrong too. Oh you don't like what I'm doing here? Well Team Liquid is backing me, how can you argue with someone Team Liquid has given full confidence? Holy shit, as I was writing this, I realized that man has created a video gaming religion, with Team Liquid as its god. It's presence is always felt, but never explicitly made. It is used to enforce certain codes or laws, morals, and ethics. Helps to give the leader a sense of right so no one else could ever lead. Wow. lol getting a bit ahead of yourself yes, I see your point now. I think he was just using it as a backup so that if one hasn't read the book, they are less likely to argue against him although if what Arctix posted is true especially the logs, I can't see how many would put up with that tbh. Being told to agree unconditionally and the whole 'watch your tone' would piss me off lol ...Freelancer ever so kindly sent me an email saying that he had a post in the member section of his forum about him coming clean.
It's not clear what is being said here. Could you elaborate on this point? And if he's "coming clean" why is it posted in a private forum where no dissent or due process can take place?
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Here are the two quotes from the email that he sent me after posting in this thread.
We had a huge meeting and got all the shit out in the open and cleared the air. Lightning and others have started coming back, knowing that both sides fucked up. Yea, me too.
There has been a private thread in our forums where everyone has brought out all the dirty laundry and we are moving on. That Liquid thread is linked as well. Bottom line is when all hat shit happened with Arctix/etc, people had questions, and we had to lay it all out there. You would have enjoyed it.
I have confirmed with members of Team Legacy that both did happen although were not 100% inclusive.
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Lol. So after going full-blown denial mode and calling us trolls in public he has decided to admit we were right in private.
Talk about trying to save face.
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I appreciate the positive feedback everyone, it's unfortunate, but this guy is trash. Absolute trash-- as a gamer, and a human being. There are innocent players who are looking for a nice community and are misled by Freelancer and his false promises that go over and beyond to support that community with money and time. It's criminal that he profits from it and uses every single one of them.
On December 07 2013 01:26 NoobieOne wrote:Here are the two quotes from the email that he sent me after posting in this thread. Show nested quote +We had a huge meeting and got all the shit out in the open and cleared the air. Lightning and others have started coming back, knowing that both sides fucked up. Yea, me too. Show nested quote +There has been a private thread in our forums where everyone has brought out all the dirty laundry and we are moving on. That Liquid thread is linked as well. Bottom line is when all hat shit happened with Arctix/etc, people had questions, and we had to lay it all out there. You would have enjoyed it.
I have confirmed with members of Team Legacy that both did happen although were not 100% inclusive.
I can confirm that everything arctix said was true (although very biased).
Secondly, nothing that I said was biased. It all really happened. It wasn't more aggressive or less agressive for any reason, it was and is the truth, exactly how it happened. Just because it came from me, someone who's had issues with Freelancer, doesn't mean that it's biased as fact is fact. You can clearly see in my chat logs with Freelancer that I made attempts to make things work, and the result was consistently the same. He's a shitty person.
Bottom line is when all hat shit happened with Arctix/etc, people had questions, and we had to lay it all out there. You would have enjoyed it.
I call BS. When we left, he took down his OWN site, and his OWN TS3, and claimed that it was everyone who left maliciously attacking their website and TS3. They didn't lay shit out, because if you remember correctly, Orz (the supposed co-founder) sent Edwin an email saying that he's learned of all, if not most of the accusations we've made against Free were true and told us to keep our eyes peeled because Freelancer was so upset that he was going to try and maliciously attack our site. He didn't come clean about a single, solitary thing, and I seriously doubt that he would. He doesn't have the character to come clean and explain to people that he's a pathological liar and a manipulative, condescending sexist person. The very fact that Freelancer even said "you would have enjoyed it" is him convincing himself that what he's saying to you in his email is going to get your attention. He hasn't changed for a while, and he's not going to change now. He's a scumbag. My opinion is based off of facts, experience, and the result of watching other players get taken advantage of both with time and money. I mean think about it: Who takes down their own site and TS3, and turns around and blames people that left the community for the sole purpose of generating hate and gaining the trust of the sheep involved? I don't care enough about the guy to spend my time maliciously attacking them because I don't blame Team Legacy for a single solitary thing. It's not their fault, Freelancer is a piece of shit. In fact, after reading this entire thread, if someone still choose to join that group, then I would have ZERO sympathy for them. It's not a coincidence that this many people are aware of the issues revolving Freelancer/Michael Foster.
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The story continues.
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I dont understand.. Serejai whoever he might be seems to be able to ban people, but he allowed that freelance guy to continue making money for 2years without banning him in this forum? wtf. :\
Fuck i get banned from forums just for saying one bad word or something...
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On December 07 2013 05:52 webas wrote: I dont understand.. Well at least you got one thing right...
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On November 27 2013 04:23 Serejai wrote: Also I like their achievements in general.
Only one achievement is for Team Legacy. The rest are for "TL" which were all Team Liquid communities he played in. I bet that false association was an accident, too. Lots of accidents.
Just to play fact checker:
The TLs are for Team Legacy in this case, as they did have "chapters" for these games, or had evenings where they would all get together to play.
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On December 06 2013 10:10 Disciple7 wrote: It's upsetting. I've seen so many good leaders, players, and people go through there that could have made it such a great endeavor.
The kool-aid, bro. It was delicious, for a while.
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Canada10904 Posts
On December 07 2013 05:52 webas wrote: I dont understand.. Serejai whoever he might be seems to be able to ban people, but he allowed that freelance guy to continue making money for 2years without banning him in this forum? wtf. :\
Fuck i get banned from forums just for saying one bad word or something... Serejai didn't ban anyone. He did however corroborate or expand upon the sorts of things defmatrix brought up to Kwark. It was TL moderators and Nazgul that discussed this and Nazgul who decided to pull the trigger. Serejai agreed to create a write up given his past knowledge of Free.
Free wasn't banned before simply because he slid under the radar until now.
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On December 07 2013 05:52 webas wrote: I dont understand.. Serejai whoever he might be seems to be able to ban people, but he allowed that freelance guy to continue making money for 2years without banning him in this forum? wtf. :\
Fuck i get banned from forums just for saying one bad word or something...
HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY MODERATION ABILITIES. I SHALL SMITE YOU DOWN FOR YOUR INSOLENCE.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On December 07 2013 08:58 Serejai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2013 05:52 webas wrote: I dont understand.. Serejai whoever he might be seems to be able to ban people, but he allowed that freelance guy to continue making money for 2years without banning him in this forum? wtf. :\
Fuck i get banned from forums just for saying one bad word or something... HOW DARE YOU QUESTION MY MODERATION ABILITIES. I SHALL SMITE YOU DOWN FOR YOUR INSOLENCE. would be ironic if you got banned just like the last ban (when you consider this post) lol
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The question is: Have you ever banned someone with the Error: No Error ban?
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I can understand that Team Liquid staff can be annoyed if someone is siphoning members from them and using their name without their explicit permission. But I have little respect for the people who have been in these Legacy guilds what ever. I mean if a guild is okay good bad whatever has nothing to do if it is affiliated with team liquid or not and some people only joining them because they wanted to be cool and in a "TL" guild, well ... You should judge guilds and forums by their actions, progress and people and not with whom they are affiliated or what they claim.
I think the ban is well deserved and it is sad to see that such thing could go one for quite some time. I think some of the people who joined Team Legacy are also to blame for being naive and stupid, although freelancer seemed to be quite an apt liar. His bluff skill must be extremely high XD
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On December 07 2013 09:39 Holy_AT wrote: I can understand that Team Liquid staff can be annoyed if someone is siphoning members from them and using their name without their explicit permission. But I have little respect for the people who have been in these Legacy guilds what ever. I mean if a guild is okay good bad whatever has nothing to do if it is affiliated with team liquid or not and some people only joining them because they wanted to be cool and in a "TL" guild, well ... You should judge guilds and forums by their actions, progress and people and not with whom they are affiliated or what they claim.
I think the ban is well deserved and it is sad to see that such thing could go one for quite some time. I think some of the people who joined Team Legacy are also to blame for being naive and stupid, although freelancer seemed to be quite an apt liar. His bluff skill must be extremely high XD
I agree 1000000000000%
Keep in mind, and it's easy to misunderstand. I am in total defense of Team Legacy. Team Legacy did NOTHING wrong. Nothing. Nadda. Not a damn thing. I like a lot of people in it. The person at fault is their leader, the scumbag that's taking advantage of players. He's the reason for all the issues. It's wrong to lure people in based off of fame and credit that hard working individuals like the Team Liquid community and Leaders such as myself have put into their gaming career only to mooch more members. It's equally wrong to not do homework when you're joining a community. Why would you have little respect for players who don't know any better? These new generations, honestly don't know that researching a guild, and verifying the legitimacy is a requirement if you're investing your future into them. You know?
I think the important thing to take from here is that Freelancer is a piece of shit, and so long as he represents the Team Legacy organization, the organization is subject to the same scrutiny-- because it's built on lies. The individual players aren't bad, nor are they at fault, it's the brand and it's leader.
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Since Serejai has slain team legacy leader in 1 on 1 combat it is a customary guild honored tradition that Serejai must now take over the alpha spot of iron fisted tyrannical leader.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
On December 07 2013 10:28 Coagulation wrote: Since Serejai has slain team legacy leader in 1 on 1 combat it is a customary guild honored tradition that Serejai must now take over the alpha spot of iron fisted tyrannical leader.
that only applies if you have slain the opponent in Mortal Kombat not regular combat.
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So maybe you will know Arctix. I'm curious why Orz, if he's the co-founder, is "BANNED" on their forums?
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On December 08 2013 13:53 pro138 wrote: So maybe you will know Arctix. I'm curious why Orz, if he's the co-founder, is "BANNED" on their forums?
Orz took a break for gaming for a time and when he came back he was basically lied to about stuff. However, he later found out at a time after me and Arctix left that all of our proof was true. I don't know the exact reason that he is banned but I know he had a few disagreements with Freelancer.
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does this topic have anything to do with the switch from the TSL tourneys to TLS ?
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Hyrule18768 Posts
TSL is the Team Liquid Star League (SC2) TLS is the Team Liquid Legacy Star League (BW)
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On December 09 2013 00:54 tofucake wrote: TSL is the Team Liquid Star League (SC2) TLS is the Team Liquid Legacy Star League (BW) Razer TSL and Pokerstrategy.com TSL were BW events.
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On December 09 2013 04:15 EnjoYmE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 00:54 tofucake wrote: TSL is the Team Liquid Star League (SC2) TLS is the Team Liquid Legacy Star League (BW) Razer TSL and Pokerstrategy.com TSL were BW events.
that was before Starcraft 2 was out, and TSL3 was SC2.
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On December 08 2013 13:53 pro138 wrote: So maybe you will know Arctix. I'm curious why Orz, if he's the co-founder, is "BANNED" on their forums?
Orz is not a co-founder. I don't know how he got that title. I was in the guild before he was, and I wasn't even a co-founder. He was just someone that entirely bought into what Free did, so he was given a title with a ton of clout.
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On December 08 2013 23:51 EnjoYmE wrote: does this topic have anything to do with the switch from the TSL tourneys to TLS ?
Just in case the other answers weren't crystal clear: no.
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funny within hours of my post Orz is now a "Member" and but has no profile as if he were still banned. interesting. someone is watching.
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On December 09 2013 12:11 pro138 wrote: funny within hours of my post Orz is now a "Member" and but has no profile as if he were still banned. interesting. someone is watching.
I always feel like.. SOMEBODY'S WATCHING MEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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On December 09 2013 09:28 Disciple7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2013 13:53 pro138 wrote: So maybe you will know Arctix. I'm curious why Orz, if he's the co-founder, is "BANNED" on their forums? Orz is not a co-founder. I don't know how he got that title. I was in the guild before he was, and I wasn't even a co-founder. He was just someone that entirely bought into what Free did, so he was given a title with a ton of clout.
Orz did help a lot with the backend of operations after you had left, so he was given the title.
A lot of us were "co-founders" and never got a title. It's not like it matters though.
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I am said "Orz." I haven't been to the Team Legacy website in so long that it doesn't matter anymore but this thread was recently brought to my attention.
Was I told a bunch of stuff and sold a bunch of stuff that just wasn't true? Yes. Did I have wool over my eyes for a long time? Yes, and I regret I was ever part of the upper echelon of Team Legacy. A lot of my time wasted in the end. Did I finally wake up? Sure did, and life has been grand ever since without me wasting it on silly bullshit. Freelancer is quite aware of what I think of him, and has been for some time. Is this really worth my time and effort? Nope, but this was brought to my attention by people who actually care, so I gave it a second of said time and effort.
Whatever the purpose is here, I hope it was fulfilled. I made some long-term friends because of my time in Team Legacy, and that is about the only good that ever came out of it.
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As of this posting the Team Legacy forums are no longer viewable unless you are registered and a lot of threads have been pruned. They seem to be in full-on damage control mode with their members.
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On December 18 2013 13:36 Serejai wrote: As of this posting the Team Legacy forums are no longer viewable unless you are registered and a lot of threads have been pruned. They seem to be in full-on damage control mode with their members.
Well after me Arctix and a bunch of others left they did take down their forums for about a day or so claiming we took them down in order to delete a bunch of stuff so its not unheard of.
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Oh man those logs...Arctix thanks for posting.
Authoritarian leadership models really rely on the abilities and judgment of the person or people at the top.
See if this guy: -was extremely good at the game or at least had the right mindset for becoming top tier material -didn't have shit for credibility due to his constant lies -didn't take credit for people's work for personal profit while sharing nothing -knew how to properly utilize the abilities of those in the guild instead of driving competent members away
maybe team legacy would be better than what appears to be an obsessively manipulative cult leader inundating the mindless cultists with propaganda while everyone else looks on in revulsion, or at least morbid curiosity.
If a leader wants to both have a good organization and a very high degree of control, that leader had better be a damn good leader. This guy...is definitely not. Sun Tzu would be ashamed
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There's a teamlegacy.net recruiting thread in the TL steam group. We might want to take that down somehow.
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On December 20 2013 01:28 Chezus wrote: There's a teamlegacy.net recruiting thread in the TL steam group. We might want to take that down somehow.
Can you send me a link? I'll pass it on to Kennigit and have him remove it.
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I really wonder what goes this guys head to make him do this kind of stuff. I love the preface with the Minecraft story of him griefing. It's like how a serial killer tortures small animals as a child and grows up and moves on to bigger stuff.
Seriously its bizarre... I'd get a kick out of putting someone like him on the spot with all the facts laid out before him. But of course, people like this would simply deny it all with a straight face. Crazy,
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He does and continues to deny it all
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So the alpha testing for EverQuest Next Landmark has started and Team Legacy, after a mere five days, is already becoming known for griefing and ruining the gameplay for others.
If anyone remembers how much they griefed the Minecraft server here... they're doing the same exact shit in EQNL - digging random holes everywhere to trap players in, filling the landscape with one-block thick pillars and lines all over the map, and building giant squares next to other players for no apparent reason.
What a plague on gaming in general.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On February 06 2014 10:04 Serejai wrote:So the alpha testing for EverQuest Next Landmark has started and Team Legacy, after a mere five days, is already becoming known for griefing and ruining the gameplay for others. If anyone remembers how much they griefed the Minecraft server here... they're doing the same exact shit in EQNL - digging random holes everywhere to trap players in, filling the landscape with one-block thick pillars and lines all over the map, and building giant squares next to other players for no apparent reason. What a plague on gaming in general. I'm sorry but I couldn't help but laugh at the bolded part lol. Other than that, ya, it's sad that Team Legacy is griefing
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It's been some months since this topic was introduced. Very recently something was brought to my attention that had me looking back into Team Legacy again, and I figured that this topic in particular was one where "necroing" might be appropriate to see if anything interesting happened as a result.
A lot of things have definitely changed (though it'd be dumb for this topic to take credit for the vast majority of these changes). The blanket ban they had in place (where non-members essentially couldn't read the forums anymore) is gone, and the whole website has been redone again. The weird nag-oriented access thing where you couldn't read a first post in any topic unless registered seems to be gone. Team Legacy seems to be associated with Curse now in some more direct way, as they're basically using their logo [ compare http://imgur.com/g1eTiPb and http://domaingang.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/curse.jpg ]. That's no real surprise given past indications.
I was recently linked to this http://teamlegacy.net/topic/13883-team-legacy-logo-contest/page-4#entry131589 which has some interesting remarks by Foster. To give some context, this is in a thread about a logo redesign contest for the Team Legacy site logo.
I'd like "TL" to not be a part of the logo if at all possible. Thanks.
We may soon be calling ourselves "Legacy Gaming/Legacy Network" (with the guilds remaining "team" legacy) and I'd like a logo that is transferable regardless if we go down such a route.
Looks like he is/was considering abandoning the TL/TL confusion tactic. Interesting turn of events.
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When I read this I contacted three different Curse employees and they all said Team Legacy wasn't affiliated with Curse in any way. So, either they've decided to stop ripping off Team Liquid and instead rip of Curse... or the three people I spoke with haven't been informed yet, which seems highly unlikely since they work at the corporate office.
Seems to be more of the same sketchy behavior.
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On July 23 2014 04:12 Serejai wrote: When I read this I contacted three different Curse employees and they all said Team Legacy wasn't affiliated with Curse in any way. So, either they've decided to stop ripping off Team Liquid and instead rip of Curse... or the three people I spoke with haven't been informed yet, which seems highly unlikely since they work at the corporate office.
Seems to be more of the same sketchy behavior.
If they're not associated with Curse, they're doing a very good job of pretending they are, especially if there is consideration of changing their name to x Gaming or x Network when holding on to that... blatant ripoff icon. So the new plan is to look and sound like Curse Gaming in order to siphon users from them?
I'd love some comments from Team Legacy people on this, but I'm not idealistic enough to make the mostly symbolic effort of linking to this thread on their forums and having the post deleted seconds later.
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The last time I got comments from anyone associated with Team Legacy was when one of his family members contacted me about his mental issues. Anyone else related to Team Legacy that isn't mentally challenged has already posted in this thread about how they got out while they could. Asking for responses now is kinda like asking FOX News to tell you about Obama.
This actually isn't his first time impersonating Curse, either, but the last time was a lot less involved; he simply advertised his guilds as being with Curse. This time it seems he's going all in with the name changes and logo spoof. He's also still advertising his EverQuest Landmark guild as being affiliated with Team Liquid, as his in-game recruitment spam mentions Team Liquid and their in-game guild area is plastered with "TL" everywhere in blue letters. They even had a blue horse statue at the entrance.
My condolences go out to his family members who apparently still haven't been able to get him the help he needs.
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how did IRNINJA get unbanned on Team Liquid?!
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which mod was dumb enough to unban him?
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Germany25639 Posts
He is not unbanned, thanks for insulting us. locking this.
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