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Northern Ireland26210 Posts
On July 16 2025 11:00 RogueTheGOAT wrote:
Honestly, what we need at this point is for someone to email Blizzard and ask if tournament organizers are allowed to pay themselves out of community raised funds, and if not, if RSL has written permission to do so.
If Blizzard says it is ok or they have permission, then the debate about whether people who are donating are being adequately informed as to where the money is going and whether the amount that seems to be going to RSL's pockets is acceptable.
If Blizzard says it is not ok and they do not have written permission, then obviously things get interesting.
I've thought about doing it, but I've been lazy.
And why do we need this exactly?
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On July 16 2025 11:00 RogueTheGOAT wrote:
Honestly, what we need at this point is for someone to email Blizzard and ask if tournament organizers are allowed to pay themselves out of community raised funds, and if not, if RSL has written permission to do so.
If Blizzard says it is ok or they have permission, then the debate about whether people who are donating are being adequately informed as to where the money is going and whether the amount that seems to be going to RSL's pockets is acceptable.
If Blizzard says it is not ok and they do not have written permission, then obviously things get interesting.
I've thought about doing it, but I've been lazy.
This argument needs to drop quickly. Are we really going to police the use of ANY crowdfunding going to organizers when the scene is going to be almost 100% grassroots from here on out? That doesn't sound right. Nor do I really appreciate the tattling to a father who doesn't love us anymore lol. Let's make sure Blizzard doesn't care about us AND strikes down any attempt by people to make somewhat of a living off of it.
To be clear, I have issues with the RSL split too. I think it was meant to replace GSL and so the studio was seen as a requirement, but I don't think shooting to replace something that was making no money makes sense. It also isn't that fun, or I should say, it's not what makes the product fun. The guys casting together is what is fun. Go back to SC2 roots, get a nicer setup in someone's apartment than the equivalent in 2010, and have at it.
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On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:To make a strained analogy (many such cases), you could consider how donations to charity work. A lot of people who have some extra change to donate are probably going to go with the biggest name charities that they've familiar with, even though a lot of them are inefficient and not as 'effective' as smaller charities. Not many people are going to do the research to find the 'best' cause for them to donate to, and are content to have done SOME good by donating to the [big charity X]. While you'd hope the big charities improve their practices, in realistic terms, the onus is on the people who DO care about efficient donating to get the information out and convince people to contribute to what they perceive as better causes. In the case of charitable donations, that actually has happened, and you notice some shifts in the way people think about it. Could that happens for the post-ESL/Blizzard StarCraft II scene as well? Time will tell 
it’s also highly effective to publicly shame such charities
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United States33497 Posts
On July 16 2025 13:16 CHEONSOYUN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:To make a strained analogy (many such cases), you could consider how donations to charity work. A lot of people who have some extra change to donate are probably going to go with the biggest name charities that they've familiar with, even though a lot of them are inefficient and not as 'effective' as smaller charities. Not many people are going to do the research to find the 'best' cause for them to donate to, and are content to have done SOME good by donating to the [big charity X]. While you'd hope the big charities improve their practices, in realistic terms, the onus is on the people who DO care about efficient donating to get the information out and convince people to contribute to what they perceive as better causes. In the case of charitable donations, that actually has happened, and you notice some shifts in the way people think about it. Could that happens for the post-ESL/Blizzard StarCraft II scene as well? Time will tell it’s also highly effective to publicly shame such charities
people should express their opinions as they please (but with some minimum civility on TL.net )
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On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people.
Only ever talking about the prize pool in Won while the funding in $ made it very unclear. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. Hard to say this isn't being done with the intention of keeping people in the dark about it as it's never been clarified a single time months later.
Edit: also of course you can pay yourself as part of the tournament cost from the crowdfunding - it is no difference to it being a part of the product cost if you hire other casters. You can put any number you want on it and it's a justified cost as far as Blizzard would care. Realistically nothing in the community tournament license is holding back anything from happening with RSL events and other events of this size.
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On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later.
This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000.
A fool and his money are easily parted.
EDIT:
I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them.
If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt.
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On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. "A fool and his money are easily parted." EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt.
1000 won is worth about 0.7 dollar. So if you say " just divide by thousand" you are getting fooled.
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On July 16 2025 20:46 Harstem wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. "A fool and his money are easily parted." EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. 1000 won is worth about 0.7 dollar. So if you say " just divide by thousand" you are getting fooled.
I'd feel really dumb if I hadn't used an approximation symbol...
... because I was too lazy to look up the actual exchange rate.
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On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt.
It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand.
Considering the general approach of crowdfunding in SC2 I don't think it's crazy that people were just naturally expecting the prize pool of 2 tournaments over the next year to be more than the monthly crowdfunding is raising. I wouldn't call it a trick, but it's definitely a strategy that helps people look over one of the few negatives of the initial RSL announcement.
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On July 16 2025 22:16 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand.
This is true.
Put the other way round, there is no obvious purpose of presenting the price pool in an unfamiliar currency different from that in which people donate except to conceal how much (or little) it is in actuality. It is not a common practice, still less for a tournament directed at an international audience where everything else is stated in English and in Dollars. It was a deliberate choice.
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On July 16 2025 22:16 WardiTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand. Considering the general approach of crowdfunding in SC2 I don't think it's crazy that people were just naturally expecting the prize pool of 2 tournaments over the next year to be more than the monthly crowdfunding is raising. I wouldn't call it a trick, but it's definitely a strategy that helps people look over one of the few negatives of the initial RSL announcement.
For this to be an intentional strategy from RSL, they would've had to make the assumption that a large number of their target audience were too stupid and/or too lazy to perform a currency conversion.
That seems unrealistic to me.
EDIT:
On July 16 2025 22:56 Antithesis wrote:
Put the other way round, there is no obvious purpose of presenting the price pool in an unfamiliar currency different from that in which people donate except to conceal how much (or little) it is in actuality.
The obvious purpose is to emulate the GSL by having a prize pool in ₩.
I really don't think that RSL were intentionally trying to fool anyone.
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I feel that a compromise could be had here where prize pool is increased to at least 25% of the Patreon donation. Tripling the prize pool increases prestige, player and audience satisfaction while still maintaining a good amount for production cost/expansion.
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On July 16 2025 22:57 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 22:16 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand. Considering the general approach of crowdfunding in SC2 I don't think it's crazy that people were just naturally expecting the prize pool of 2 tournaments over the next year to be more than the monthly crowdfunding is raising. I wouldn't call it a trick, but it's definitely a strategy that helps people look over one of the few negatives of the initial RSL announcement. For this to be an intentional strategy from RSL, they would've had to make the assumption that a large number of their target audience were too stupid and/or too lazy to perform a currency conversion. That seems unrealistic to me. EDIT: Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 22:56 Antithesis wrote:
Put the other way round, there is no obvious purpose of presenting the price pool in an unfamiliar currency different from that in which people donate except to conceal how much (or little) it is in actuality. The obvious purpose is to emulate the GSL by having a prize pool in ₩. I really don't think that RSL were intentionally trying to fool anyone.
2000$ first place doesnt emulate GSL in any type of form, it might emulate Wardi Spring Championship
 WardiTV Spring Championship/2025
What emulations you found here? Name which sounds similar? Tasteless? Wow real GSL is back much wow
Core of GSL was prestige , huge prizemoney which for most years were over 100k$ for single event.
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I dont think most people would mind if RSL was a monthly event, so the money can just be given out in small amount but at high frequency. But people expect GSL-type of money when the organizer trying to set up the tournament that way, even the current "poorer" GSL still have 30k USD prizepool
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On July 17 2025 00:40 Optimus Prime2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 22:57 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 22:16 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand. Considering the general approach of crowdfunding in SC2 I don't think it's crazy that people were just naturally expecting the prize pool of 2 tournaments over the next year to be more than the monthly crowdfunding is raising. I wouldn't call it a trick, but it's definitely a strategy that helps people look over one of the few negatives of the initial RSL announcement. For this to be an intentional strategy from RSL, they would've had to make the assumption that a large number of their target audience were too stupid and/or too lazy to perform a currency conversion. That seems unrealistic to me. EDIT: On July 16 2025 22:56 Antithesis wrote:
Put the other way round, there is no obvious purpose of presenting the price pool in an unfamiliar currency different from that in which people donate except to conceal how much (or little) it is in actuality. The obvious purpose is to emulate the GSL by having a prize pool in ₩. I really don't think that RSL were intentionally trying to fool anyone. 2000$ first place doesnt emulate GSL in any type of form, it might emulate Wardi Spring Championship WardiTV Spring Championship/2025What emulations you found here? Name which sounds similar? Tasteless? Wow real GSL is back much wow Core of GSL was prestige , huge prizemoney which for most years were over 100k$ for single event.
Perhaps the fact that we don't have that anymore is evidence of the fact that those prize payouts are no longer financially viable, if they ever were in the first place?
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someone from twitch chat recommended I come here to see what the fuss is about?
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On July 16 2025 12:00 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 11:00 RogueTheGOAT wrote:
Honestly, what we need at this point is for someone to email Blizzard and ask if tournament organizers are allowed to pay themselves out of community raised funds, and if not, if RSL has written permission to do so.
If Blizzard says it is ok or they have permission, then the debate about whether people who are donating are being adequately informed as to where the money is going and whether the amount that seems to be going to RSL's pockets is acceptable.
If Blizzard says it is not ok and they do not have written permission, then obviously things get interesting.
I've thought about doing it, but I've been lazy.
This argument needs to drop quickly. Are we really going to police the use of ANY crowdfunding going to organizers when the scene is going to be almost 100% grassroots from here on out? That doesn't sound right. Nor do I really appreciate the tattling to a father who doesn't love us anymore lol. Let's make sure Blizzard doesn't care about us AND strikes down any attempt by people to make somewhat of a living off of it. To be clear, I have issues with the RSL split too. I think it was meant to replace GSL and so the studio was seen as a requirement, but I don't think shooting to replace something that was making no money makes sense. It also isn't that fun, or I should say, it's not what makes the product fun. The guys casting together is what is fun. Go back to SC2 roots, get a nicer setup in someone's apartment than the equivalent in 2010, and have at it.
This!
If you follow other e-sports, you know SC2 is lucky to be able to organize community-run events without a ton of red tape. Ask the Smash community how their community tourneys have gone...
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On July 17 2025 00:40 Optimus Prime2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2025 22:57 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 22:16 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 20:41 MJG wrote:On July 16 2025 16:50 WardiTV wrote:On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people. Players that had accepted invites and community members supporting the patreon had no idea about the difference in prize vs donations even like one month later. This makes it sound like there were people who thought that the prize pool was $10,000,000. A fool and his money are easily parted. EDIT: I really don't see how it's possible to confuse ₩ and $ given the ~1000 fold difference between them. If this was an intentional attempt to trick people then it was a poorly thought out attempt. It's not that people thought the prize pool was $10,000,000 lol. You are asking people to donate in $, and asking for $8k+ per month as your first goal. Presenting your prize money in a currency that people are not familiar with means that a lot of people don't do the math, they just assume it's going to be an impressive prize pool based on what you are asking for in the currency they do understand. Considering the general approach of crowdfunding in SC2 I don't think it's crazy that people were just naturally expecting the prize pool of 2 tournaments over the next year to be more than the monthly crowdfunding is raising. I wouldn't call it a trick, but it's definitely a strategy that helps people look over one of the few negatives of the initial RSL announcement. For this to be an intentional strategy from RSL, they would've had to make the assumption that a large number of their target audience were too stupid and/or too lazy to perform a currency conversion. That seems unrealistic to me. EDIT: On July 16 2025 22:56 Antithesis wrote:
Put the other way round, there is no obvious purpose of presenting the price pool in an unfamiliar currency different from that in which people donate except to conceal how much (or little) it is in actuality. The obvious purpose is to emulate the GSL by having a prize pool in ₩. I really don't think that RSL were intentionally trying to fool anyone. 2000$ first place doesnt emulate GSL in any type of form, it might emulate Wardi Spring Championship WardiTV Spring Championship/2025What emulations you found here? Name which sounds similar? Tasteless? Wow real GSL is back much wow Core of GSL was prestige , huge prizemoney which for most years were over 100k$ for single event.
My comment on emulating GSL was limited to displaying the prize pool in the same currency.
I made no comment on anything else you've mentioned.
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so the organizers are making more than the tournament winners? interesting split
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In their defense, you can't calculate yearly from a monthly Patreon alone. For example April had 13k/ month and then they announce "wohoo we'll make big tournaments with big prices" and then by August Patreon had dropped to say 6k/ month and they promised way too much and can't do it. Maybe they just need to build a buffer first.
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EPT
