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On July 13 2025 15:20 jodljodl wrote:Reading through the thread leaves me with a weird feeling. Hard to put in words: We only have the little patreon page details to go on, and everything else is speculation, isn't it? So we don't really know what's what. What if, just hypothetically, they’re acting in good faith and genuinely trying to do something positive for the SC2 scene? If that’s the case, then some of the post here might be pretty harsh. Idk. It's not like they are unkown people in the scene that nobody here has the possibility to simply ask. Maybe that’s what we should do: ask them for a bit more transparency and see how they respond, before jumping to conclusions or heavy criticism. And maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt for now -- after all, they've been part of this community for over a decade, haven’t they? 2 posts i appreciate: Show nested quote +On July 13 2025 01:59 MrBrown wrote:
Regarding Serral, he said on his discord he forfeited because he wanted to focus on EWC. Show nested quote +On July 13 2025 05:31 Ransgor wrote:
As a patron I just want more transparency, that's all. 1 post I like to anwser to, derayling from this thread (sry & edit): Show nested quote +On July 12 2025 17:52 tigera6 wrote:
Just for some perspective, players who participate in the FIFA world cup collect less than 10% of the total revenue, granted that most of these players making a tons more money from their club anyway so nobody crying about it. First of all, even though RSL and FIFA WC are both sport tournaments, is there any merrit at all to compare those two in this context? Second, of course people don't cry out if some poor professional football player only gets 1 mio dollars instead of 10. I wonder why... Third, why would you, in this context, name FIFA and RSL producers in one sentence? By fact FIFA is a bunch of corrupt male dudes giving zero fucks about human rights or even lifes. One could even sensibly argue they don't give a fuck about the sport they are supposed to represent...
Where did I say that because the World Cup has such split, other sports or tournaments must follow the same rule? And I dont give a damn if you hate FIFA so much and boycott all of their events, Blizzard arent doing better things for BW/SC. I was simply making a case about how tournament prizepool that go into players is just a small portion of the total revenue, and the World Cup is probably the biggest one with known data. Stop getting triggered and making a big deal out of everything.
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I feel that the main points were made already. Maybe somebody closer to the guys should ask them? Maybe some of the patreon supporters? I feel they have the leverage here to just ask nicely. Like someone said above: they are part of "our" scene and community for many years already, benefit of the doubt and such...
On the other hand I have to say I m a bit torn: as somebody who had to lead a insolvency of a small business I made the experience that giving numbers always leads to people opening their calculator on windows and or on their phone and start making home made business plans and always know it better...
And yes I know earlier I said transparency is generally good but it has its limited usefulness :D Ah man, complicated.
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On July 13 2025 18:11 Lambertus wrote:
I feel that the main points were made already. Maybe somebody closer to the guys should ask them? Maybe some of the patreon supporters? I feel they have the leverage here to just ask nicely. Like someone said above: they are part of "our" scene and community for many years already, benefit of the doubt and such...
On the other hand I have to say I m a bit torn: as somebody who had to lead a insolvency of a small business I made the experience that giving numbers always leads to people opening their calculator on windows and or on their phone and start making home made business plans and always know it better...
And yes I know earlier I said transparency is generally good but it has its limited usefulness :D Ah man, complicated.
Ask them what? There are no secrets, it is public how much money goes to players and how much they get monthly from Patreon.
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First of all, HUGE fan of Artosis and Tasteless and I hope this post will not be seen as negative. As a person that supports multiple SC tournament organizers I would like to have more clearer picture how money is spent, because people like Wardi do better job.
I am confident RSL is designed to eventually replace GSL, but to start the project with the model where players who are your main ingredient get less than 10 % of the money raised just doesn't seem right. I hope this will be only in initial stage (first year).
There is another parallel some others have made, ASL cast. Basically it raises over 11000 $ per month, and I as supporter feel like I am not getting anymore my money's worth. Basically, ASL is running twice a year, let's stretch it to 6 months a year. With money raised in other months I feel more content should be produced. So, if we view it like that, more people should be complaining about money raised for ASL, because RSL is trying to run tournaments.
I think most of the people in this topic are on the same page, we want to support SC tournaments, but give us better insight how many is being spent, and why players are not getting more. No one is saying caster talents should not earn money, or that production should not be great, but players deserve more.
Otherwise, I will seriously consider to change my subscription in order to support these causes only in months in which content is being provided. Others also made another great point, most of us are middle aged lurkers, and being older in life means you pay more attention to the things you are willing to invest your money.
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Northern Ireland26210 Posts
On July 13 2025 18:11 Lambertus wrote:
I feel that the main points were made already. Maybe somebody closer to the guys should ask them? Maybe some of the patreon supporters? I feel they have the leverage here to just ask nicely. Like someone said above: they are part of "our" scene and community for many years already, benefit of the doubt and such...
On the other hand I have to say I m a bit torn: as somebody who had to lead a insolvency of a small business I made the experience that giving numbers always leads to people opening their calculator on windows and or on their phone and start making home made business plans and always know it better...
And yes I know earlier I said transparency is generally good but it has its limited usefulness :D Ah man, complicated.
I’m generally for transparency but people can get a bit weird with it at the same time. Often you’ll see people compare the transparent data with unknowns or assumptions. Or have unrealistic demands.
Whatever salary Tasteless is pulling, you’ll get some people saying he’s being greedy or whatever and I could 100% see that being lower than his going rate as a SC2 caster for much of the game’s existence.
Frost Giant is a good example of transparency being a double-edged sword of sorts.
Again, I’m not advocating against transparency but I think it can open the door to criticisms that are frankly unreasonable at the same time.
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On July 13 2025 19:00 riche wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2025 18:11 Lambertus wrote:
I feel that the main points were made already. Maybe somebody closer to the guys should ask them? Maybe some of the patreon supporters? I feel they have the leverage here to just ask nicely. Like someone said above: they are part of "our" scene and community for many years already, benefit of the doubt and such...
On the other hand I have to say I m a bit torn: as somebody who had to lead a insolvency of a small business I made the experience that giving numbers always leads to people opening their calculator on windows and or on their phone and start making home made business plans and always know it better...
And yes I know earlier I said transparency is generally good but it has its limited usefulness :D Ah man, complicated. Ask them what? There are no secrets, it is public how much money goes to players and how much they get monthly from Patreon.
What I mean is for example what is being asked here a lot:
how much of it is costs for technical production, studio rent, digital content like logos, graphics, as well as caster salaries.
Now, just speaking in general terms, not every company is obliged to give these numbers in great detail, it really depends on the legal form of the company, what country they reside and so on.
If they are operating in Korea, I m not sure how it works there. In Germany there are different forms and possibilities to operate these kind of events or production. At the very least, if you are registered as a company or some form of legal entity, you will have to give some numbers of your balance sheet, some of them for the state, some you will have to go public with.
Again, I like the RSL guys, I consider myself one of the faction that says: good, that they are doing stuff! Don't want to come on as somebody wanting to make unnecessary pressure. Just asking things that are for many of us normal to ask the moment there are larger sums of money (for "us" in SC at least) involved...
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You may even say I ask them out of curiosity - wouldnt it be interesting for other people to know about these numbers? It can help to gain perspective if we want to do these kind of things ourselfs!
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It definitely is not a good look no matter how you look at it. For now looks like milking the dead cow. I hope it is not the case.
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On July 13 2025 17:33 tigera6 wrote:
Where did I say that because the World Cup has such split, other sports or tournaments must follow the same rule? And I dont give a damn if you hate FIFA so much and boycott all of their events, Blizzard arent doing better things for BW/SC. I was simply making a case about how tournament prizepool that go into players is just a small portion of the total revenue, and the World Cup is probably the biggest one with known data. Stop getting triggered and making a big deal out of everything.
Okay mate 
What was the point of your original post?
You're trying to add another perspective to the discussion — specifically, regarding the share of revenue that RSL organizers pass on to the participating players.
To do so, you bring up the example of the FIFA Men’s World Cup.
If I focus only on that particular point, I think your example is poorly chosen. On one side, we have the RSL organizers; on the other, FIFA. And on one side we have the Men’s Football World Cup; on the other, RSL.
The only relevant connection I can see between FIFA and the RSL organizers — or between the World Cup and the RSL — is that both are tournament organizers and both are sports tournaments.
Other than that, these examples couldn’t be more different. The Men’s Football World Cup: in many ways, the biggest sporting event in the world — a sports tournament, not an esports one. The RSL: a relatively small and quite young tournament in the now niche game SC2 — an esports tournament.
So yeah… no idea why this comparison is supposed to be meaningful. Wow — two tournaments, that otherwise couldn’t be further apart.
Now about the organizers. The same thing applies, more or less. No idea what this comparison is supposed to add.
That’s my view regarding what you explicitly stated in your post.
Now, the overall discussion isn’t just about how much of the revenue goes to the players. Another part is that many people underestimate how much work and cost go into organizing something like the RSL;
or there’s also the issue of transparency — how open the organizers are, and how different hypothetical situations would be judged morally.
That’s why I think it’s quite fair to interpret your post in that broader context too. And since FIFA is known for being corrupt and non-transparent — that’s not an opinion, that’s fact (if you don’t know, do a bit of googling…) —
and I assume you didn’t randomly choose this example, I find it very problematic to compare RSL organizers to FIFA in this particular context, at this time. That’s what I tried to express, informally, in my third point.
Now to your reply
"Where did I say that because the World Cup has such split, other sports or tournaments must follow the same rule?"
Nowhere. You're just giving us this perspective — for whatever reason. But I also never claimed that you said that.
What I am implying is that comparing RSL participants to World Cup participants in this context makes no sense — because it’s two completely different worlds…
"And I dont give a damn if you hate FIFA so much and boycott all of their events, Blizzard arent doing better things for BW/SC."
I don't hate FIFA. But morally speaking, they're just a bunch of shitty people I’d only talk to if they were in immediate danger. Why? I already hinted at.
Also, I don’t boycott their events — but I would, if I had any interest in professional football.
I really don’t understand why you're bringing up Blizzard at all. They haven’t been mentioned anywhere in the discussion.
It’s like me bringing up the woman who invented football.
"I was simply making a case about how tournament prizepool that go into players is just a small portion of the total revenue, and the World Cup is probably the biggest one with known data."
I wouldn’t call 10% of total revenue a small portion — but I was genuinely surprised by how much the FIFA gives to the teams, and how much usually ends up with the players. I never would’ve guessed it was that high.
But as mentioned before: cool that the wealthiest football federation in the world pays 10% of the revenue to the teams at the biggest sports event on earth.
We’re talking about average payouts to each individual player that are probably higher than what the RSL organizers will ever collect for the RSL, total.
When I was younger, I played in an orchestra and did some chamber music. The events weren’t organized by me or the other musicians, but by third parties.
Sometimes we had commercial gigs. In those cases, all the money went to the musicians — nothing to the organizers.
How useful do you think that perspective would be in a discussion about how much the musicians of the London Symphony Orchestra should earn?
"Stop getting triggered and making a big deal out of everything."
My two cents: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Have a nice day, dude
ps: if you wanna continue to discuss please write an pm. not gonna follow up on any fifa shizzle in this thread. thank you
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> Sometimes we had commercial gigs. In those cases, all the money went to the musicians — nothing to the organizers.
This is only possible if organizers are doing it for charity, or they get all the money from sold drinks / food / whatever is sold there. To organize a music event is quite expensive - rent the venue, equipment, specialists to work with that equipment etc. And unless it's a charity event - people rarely do that for free.
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On July 14 2025 19:52 ZeroByte13 wrote:
> Sometimes we had commercial gigs. In those cases, all the money went to the musicians — nothing to the organizers.
This is only possible if organizers are doing it for charity, or they get all the money from sold drinks / food / whatever is sold there. To organize a music event is quite expensive - rent the venue, equipment, specialists to work with that equipment etc. And unless it's a charity event - people rarely do that for free.
All of it was charity on the side of the organizers. And yes, of course people rarely do it for free, because everybody has to make a living. But this is not my point. My point is, comparing any two organizers just because the organize the same typ of event (musical, sports or whatever) does not make it sensible in every case. For example FIFA or the Tasteless & Co. when it comes to the % of revenue the RSL participants get. Or my orchestra and the London Symphony Orchestra in the analogue context.
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People advocating for a small private company to have their staff work for free and publish all their numbers are insane. Can we shut this thread down? I don't know why it wasn't when OP was banned for making it.
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On July 14 2025 19:07 jodljodl wrote:
Now, the overall discussion isn’t just about how much of the revenue goes to the players. Another part is that many people underestimate how much work and cost go into organizing something like the RSL;
I've literally seen Wardi organize a new tournament on stream and it took him less than an hour. Even if you pretend that they have to do all of the qualifiers from scratch rather than just taking the format they've written and change the dates and server, you're talking approximately 5 hours for the actual tournament organization.
A majority of the costs associated with this event are a product of choices they've made for the event. Renting a studio isn't an absolute requirement. If they bought new equipment for that studio, that's not an absolute requirement as Tasteless was already a streamer/caster. Even if you pretend those costs are required, if the goal was to "save Starcraft", they could just run the tournament like those that allow community casts and let those be paid by the people who are already paying them and would likely cast the event for free.
On July 14 2025 19:07 jodljodl wrote:
I wouldn’t call 10% of total revenue a small portion
10% is an absurdly low portion, especially considering the lack of inherent costs.
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On July 14 2025 21:41 Haighstrom wrote:
People advocating for a small private company to have their staff work for free and publish all their numbers are insane. Can we shut this thread down? I don't know why it wasn't when OP was banned for making it.
nice 10% tourney advocating yourself buddy, well done here
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What makes no sense is that there are months where there are no tournaments running but they are raising money. What happens to that money?
There are no games, no content, just a month-long break.
Why don't they use those off-season months where money is coming in to put into the prizepool of the next round? They could easily raise the prizepool by $12k, but instead they keep it.
With the amount they are currently raising every month, they could run a tournament a month.
You can tell how shady this shit is when they kept asking people to subscribe to the Patreon even though it was the last series of the season.
Even shadier now with this thread being up for over a week, nothing is clarified, and they are just continue leaving the community in the dark.
And supporters are saying that everything is on the up and up. Blind loyalty is funny sometimes.
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I just skimmed this thread and I didn't see the revenue made from actually streaming on twitch and YT mentioned once. The Patreon is not the only source of income.
I do expect the pricepools go up longterm, especially after the inital start up costs are back in.
Only with attractive pricepools will there be enough talent worth watching after all.
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If they really raised more than 100k and offer only 10% to save starcraft scene... How can you even call that? More than absurd. It's not about the money even. Just don't pretend you do something for the community.
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United States33497 Posts
The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people  . Even though the "saving StarCraft 2" sales pitch makes me roll my eyes, it's hardly the kind of exaggerated marketing that feels shady.
The more interesting and relevant discussion is around the kind of donors they attracted, and whether or not they could be convinced to contribute to other events with a more equitable donation split.
One key factor is just lack of information. I'd venture to guess that most SC2 viewers are fairly casual, and they're not getting news about tournaments unless it's ESL or streamers with the biggest platforms promoting them. Tasteless definitely has a way bigger platform than others, so naturally more interest/money is going to flow his way.
The other aspect is whether or not people would actually support other events if they did know about them. It might be hard for hardcore fans to process (I count me and most of the people who are still reading TL.net as among the most hardcore fans), but I can see how more casual fans just don't have the bandwidth to think about how their spending affects the broader scene. They just like Tasteless, they probably liked the GSL, so if they have an extra $5-10 to spend on SC2, they're probably just going to send it to the thing that feels most familiar. Personally, I'd prefer to donate to Wardi/PiG/TakeTV/whoever over current RSL 100% of the time, but I'm still glad the RSL patrons are supporting something related to SC2.
To make a strained analogy (many such cases), you could consider how donations to charity work. A lot of people who have some extra change to donate are probably going to go with the biggest name charities that they've familiar with, even though a lot of them are inefficient and not as 'effective' as smaller charities. Not many people are going to do the research to find the 'best' cause for them to donate to, and are content to have done SOME good by donating to the [big charity X].
While you'd hope the big charities improve their practices, in realistic terms, the onus is on the people who DO care about efficient donating to get the information out and convince people to contribute to what they perceive as better causes. In the case of charitable donations, that actually has happened, and you notice some shifts in the way people think about it. Could that happens for the post-ESL/Blizzard StarCraft II scene as well? Time will tell 
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Honestly, what we need at this point is for someone to email Blizzard and ask if tournament organizers are allowed to pay themselves out of community raised funds, and if not, if RSL has written permission to do so.
If Blizzard says it is ok or they have permission, then the debate about whether people who are donating are being adequately informed as to where the money is going and whether the amount that seems to be going to RSL's pockets is acceptable.
If Blizzard says it is not ok and they do not have written permission, then obviously things get interesting.
I've thought about doing it, but I've been lazy.
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Northern Ireland26210 Posts
On July 16 2025 10:12 Waxangel wrote:The budget/prize distribution was very clear from the start. Even accounting for the fact that people tend to skim over walls of text, I think it's pretty disingenuous to claim RSL was trying to trick people . Even though the "saving StarCraft 2" sales pitch makes me roll my eyes, it's hardly the kind of exaggerated marketing that feels shady. The more interesting and relevant discussion is around the kind of donors they attracted, and whether or not they could be convinced to contribute to other events with a more equitable donation split. One key factor is just lack of information. I'd venture to guess that most SC2 viewers are fairly casual, and they're not getting news about tournaments unless it's ESL or streamers with the biggest platforms promoting them. Tasteless definitely has a way bigger platform than others, so naturally more interest/money is going to flow his way. The other aspect is whether or not people would actually support other events if they did know about them. It might be hard for hardcore fans to process (I count me and most of the people who are still reading TL.net as among the most hardcore fans), but I can see how more casual fans just don't have the bandwidth to think about how their spending affects the broader scene. They just like Tasteless, they probably liked the GSL, so if they have an extra $5-10 to spend on SC2, they're probably just going to send it to the thing that feels most familiar. Personally, I'd prefer to donate to Wardi/PiG/TakeTV/whoever over current RSL 100% of the time, but I'm still glad the RSL patrons are supporting something related to SC2. To make a strained analogy (many such cases), you could consider how donations to charity work. A lot of people who have some extra change to donate are probably going to go with the biggest name charities that they've familiar with, even though a lot of them are inefficient and not as 'effective' as smaller charities. Not many people are going to do the research to find the 'best' cause for them to donate to, and are content to have done SOME good by donating to the [big charity X]. While you'd hope the big charities improve their practices, in realistic terms, the onus is on the people who DO care about efficient donating to get the information out and convince people to contribute to what they perceive as better causes. In the case of charitable donations, that actually has happened, and you notice some shifts in the way people think about it. Could that happens for the post-ESL/Blizzard StarCraft II scene as well? Time will tell
Excellent post sir
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EPT
