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France13004 Posts
On February 20 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure. now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last  (btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?) I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both. Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events. Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play. People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second. If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head. If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker. General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones. I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there.
Agree, it’s probably 1) Serral 2) Maru 3) Rogue or 1) Serral 2) Rogue 3) Maru
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Oh man.. now that is spicy!!!
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Good old times reading this. Mvp sure deserves a spot like that. S2
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On February 20 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote:
in before
#3 Dark
#2 Rogue
#1 Maru
and then the addendum Greatest KOREAN players of all time
That appears to be the only easy way out ;-)
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A lot of comments trying to deny the massive impact Mvp had during that era in terms of meta defining, storylines, popularizing the game. He was huge. He was the inarguable King of Wings and so important for everything that happened during that era. An iconic figure.
For me, the archon toilet of his BCs was one of the most gutwrenching moments of my sc2 fandom, but the G7 comeback was unreal. I've watched that game back more than ten times.
But the real heartbreak was in his series vs Life, there was an opportunity to split map in G7 on Daybreak and win, but he moved out so early and threw away his position, giving Life enough of a headstart to get into Brood Lords. I so wanted him to win that series for the G5L.
Also got to say that the 3rax scv pull he introduced vs Naniwa was an iconic game that fuelled my ladder matches for months after.
Also worth pointing out to Ret that he did play Mvp a third time offline and lost 0-2 at WCS EU (although Mvp also went out with Ret 3/4th place in this group lol)
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On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote:
For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me.
What does Di Stefano have on Messi though?
After a short overview of the Trophy cases of Pele, Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi it seems to me Messi got them all beat. Though that sole World Champion title is a bit lacking compared to Pele's three.
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On February 20 2024 19:21 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure. now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last (btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?) I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both. Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events. Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play. People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second. If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head. If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker. General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones. I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there. Agree, it’s probably 1) Serral 2) Maru 3) Rogue or 1) Serral 2) Rogue 3) Maru
My head says you're right, but my heart says:
1) White-Ra
2) MC
3) iNcontroL
+ Show Spoiler +Absolutely zero Protoss bias, I promise >.>
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On February 20 2024 21:00 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 19:21 Poopi wrote:On February 20 2024 19:03 WombaT wrote:On February 20 2024 18:34 [PkF] Wire wrote:you made a really good case for Mvp. I still don't get why Dark isn't in the top 10, but I'm all the more eager to read your explanations when you give us your #15-11 - among which he is for sure. now the real trickiness begins, because everyone knows Maru Serral Rogue are left, but in which order ? I can't wait to read the Rogue article, and I for sure hope it's the last (btw, serious question : will you talk about Life and how he would have ranked without the matchfixing scandals in your #15-11 articles ?) I think it can only be: 1st/2nd or 1st/3rd - Maru/Serral - interchangeable on preference/weightings don’t @ me folks! ^_^ 2nd/3rd - Rogue Rogue can win either head-to-head, I don’t see how he can win both. Maru versus Rogue the former has the better career way back from peak Kespa through now. A better Proleague performance, more Starleagues, more deep placements in Starleagues, where they can be directly compared. Rogue has the edge in villainy and in World Champ tier events. Serral versus Rogue they’re honours even in World Champs basically, Serral has the edge in consistency, performance through a year in wider events, and in head-to-head, where they can directly be compared. Rogue has the edge of Starleague honours, where Serral doesn’t play. People may disagree with my calculus, unless you just disqualify Serral outright for not playing Starleagues, which Miz is too sensible to do, I don’t see any weighting of achievements where Rogue places above second. If we weigh Starleagues very highly, he can displace Serral in the pecking order, but if that’s the big qualifier I don’t think anyone here would argue he’s a better Starleague player than Maru and he can’t win that head-to-head. If we rank World Golds really highly he displaces Maru, but Serral’s got him tied there, and I think Serral just has him best in a direct comparison as a tie-breaker. General premier wins and medals? From memory I think Serral just wins this even if you take away all his WCS circuit ones. I’m not sure how Miz is gonna go, I’m yet to get to that Being John Malkovich stage where I have a portal into his head, although by the end of this series and associated threads I may yet get there. Agree, it’s probably 1) Serral 2) Maru 3) Rogue or 1) Serral 2) Rogue 3) Maru My head says you're right, but my heart says: 1) White-Ra 2) MC 3) iNcontroL + Show Spoiler +Absolutely zero Protoss bias, I promise >.>
MC will always be in my top 3 😎
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Good choice. MVP was the first Gosu of SC2 and deserves his spot.
I mean what most of you don't grasp / have forgotten / never witnessed how many players competed during that early stages and how unrefined some of the stuff was.
It was freaking hard to qualify for Code S, very good players got cheesed left and right in Code A and other tournaments. Yet MVP still won so much in such dominant fashion.
All of his wins and dominance stem from a rather short peroid and I'd be curious how much a healthy MVP with 5 more years could have won.
To me MVP feels just about right at #4. Some 10-14 year long careers are sometimes not a matter of greatness but consistency. SoO being a prime example, he never was the best player really (in my eyes), yet made this list.
Yes maybe others have won more overall but they never had the impact MVP had.
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Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On February 20 2024 20:57 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 16:41 Parser wrote:
For me it is really strange seeing MVP on this list. It feels like "Di Stefano is the GOAT of soccer". Furthermore, thinking that someone among Innovation, Dark, Rogue, Reynor, Maru, Serral (ok, Serral and Maru definitely will be in) won't be on this list just feels odd to me. What does Di Stefano have on Messi though? After a short overview of the Trophy cases of Pele, Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi it seems to me Messi got them all beat. Though that sole World Champion title is a bit lacking compared to Pele's three.
For me Messi is certainly the best player, and by a surprisingly large distance that I’ve ever seen, and likely all-time, but GOATness you run into issues of eta and other factors.
Pele has those World Cups, equally it’s nothing to do with his personal greatness that he happened to be Brazilian and in 1962 and 70 especially, be playing for two of the great international sides that were stacked.
The economics and wider structural context of the game have also shifted. Di Stefano has all those European cups, but that competition was only in its infancy then, and the professional game wasn’t as deep across Europe as perhaps other periods.
Maradona is in his pomp when Italy’s top tier is maybe the strongest domestic league for the combination of sheer quality and deep competition we’ve seen. Also the European Cup of this era is pure league winners, indeed the Napoli he first dragged to Serie A glory drew Real Madrid first round and went out immediately of the 1987-1988 European Cup. Madrid then knocked Porto out second round, the actual defending champions. It’s even wilder if you look at the bracket from that link, and see some of the other first round ties! That’s kind of unthinkable if one is used to the current format. His trophy cabinet isn’t nearly as full as others partly for this reason, partly his love of the auld cocaine.
Messi has crazy numbers, although IMO that is partly to a bigger and bigger concentration of talent in fewer clubs, even since the 2000s or so. The game has changed tactically as well, it’s not 100% of the reason but just a decade or so before, it was literally unheard of for players to go 1:1 goals per game for much more than a single ridiculous season. 0.5 goals per game was a very decent player indeed, much above and you’re in the conversation for best of the era. For reference Thierry Henry in domestic games for Arsenal sat at 0.67 GPG, I think it’s fair to consider that ‘peak Henry’. Ronaldo between Inter/Barca/Real Madrid managed 0.71 and while I think that includes a period where he was past his peak after his knee injuries, his numbers aren’t massively off then at 0.65 GPG in those domestic leagues.
Then you end up with a swathe of players who way, way exceed those numbers, in an era where I’d argue the traditionally huge clubs started to gap everyone else, especially domestically. I do think while this isn’t the entire explanation, I do feel it’s a big factor in why we’re seeing more and more players close in or even exceed 1:1 goal a game averages. Also why you’re seeing more huge points tallies and more clubs winning many consecutive leagues, or if not, just trading leagues with one other, maybe two other teams.
Messi probably isn’t even a professional footballer in other eras where clubs couldn’t, or wouldn’t pay for some kid to get growth hormone treatment.
TLDR, as I often say in the absence of a player of absolute outlying dominance, Wayne Gretzky in ice hockey, Donald Bradman in cricket (test average 99.8, where an average significantly above 50 over a long career puts a batsman in the all-time great pantheon), you can’t really aspire to be the GOAT, merely part of that conversation.
So this grew to more of a monster post than I’d initially anticipated, but hey I may not necessarily be the biggest football fan on TL, but I am definitely one of the biggest nerds.
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I do not really understand this decision. This must mean that Dark is not in this list (unless its Serral/Maru tied) and that doesnt make any sense to me. Yeah, MPV was a great and iconic player, but his reign was so short and the whole game was just starting to phase up. I would not have had him in the top-10, or maybe in the 8-10 region at best. Also I do not get at all why is he above Inno ?? That doesnt make any sense to me.
HOWEVER, what many of you have said too, thanks for all work you put on this list, Miz. Great read and lots of info I have either forgotten or not known.
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ahhh it's really MVP!!!! So happy about this placement, my WOL GOAT <3 great writeup once again, nerd chills!!
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MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
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On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote:
MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said.
So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against.
What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs.
That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
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Ohyeah. My boy, the legend. I think #4 is a good placement. He was so good.
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I will admit, I forgot Mvp originally and was surprised when people brought him up as #4 instead of Dark. And even though I was against it, I can see his merits and reasons to be included in the Top 10.
No. 4 however just feels way too high. He was dominant for a very short amount of time, with an inflated number of GSL wins.
Like Maru, Mvp has won three GSLs in a year (I think...does that GSL Championship thingy count as a GSL?). But Maru won 3 out of 3, while Mvp won 3 out of 11. I know it is a projection, but imagine 2018 still had so many GSLs and Maru would have won like 7 out of 11...would anyone even talk about Mvp at this point?
Mvp also played in the lowest skill-era of competitive SC2 history - the game was new, no Kespa-Koreans yet and the wonkiest of the 3 addons. Sure, maybe the highest amount of players, but so unrefined compared to today or even HotS. I don't want to say it was "easy" to be as dominant as he was, of course not. But in my opinion it doesn't hold up to stronger players in later years.
Lastly, I don't think we can really ignore how Mvp left the scene. His last professional match was a 2-3 vs. MorroW, after that he only played a couple of qualifiers. Of course that might be him still trying against his injury, but it doesn't particularly scream "Vice-Vice-Vice-GOAT!" either.
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On February 20 2024 22:59 Kitaen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote:
MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said. So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs. That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins.
You might wanna rewatch a few games of 2011 GSL, the level of play is laughable compared to 1-2 years later
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On February 21 2024 00:01 Tsubbi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2024 22:59 Kitaen wrote:On February 20 2024 22:49 Tsubbi wrote:
MVP was magical, no matter how you twist it though, his time lasted for no more than 1,5 years.
During this time Code S was basically a monthly event and there were a lot of chances to gather trophies. There were 7 seasons of Code S in 2011. Weighing each on of these as highly as a world championship seems questionable.
The choice of words and hyperboles indicate your fandom and hell why not, you put a lot of work into these articles, they are very enjoyable to read and encourage to look back at these great games which is a lot of fun.
But MVP is ranked too high on this list for sure, I agree with everything Ret said. So? He won THAT many during the most competitive time of the game? If anything that's an argument for MVP and not against. What does longevity accomplish when paired with medicoracy? A good player that had a few runs. That covers a lot of players on this list quite frankly. And most of them were never better than MVP during any of their wins. You might wanna rewatch a few games of 2011 GSL, the level of play is laughable compared to 1-2 years later
Oh come on, "most competitive" is obviously comparative to overall skill level. Back in the day just making Code A was an achievement. Nowadays PAPI makes RO32 in tournaments that are considered "premier".
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Will there be a #0? Im struggling to see Dark being out of the top 10. The top 3 should already be locked in per everyone mentioning Rouge Maru Serral...
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EPT
